Juki Nozzle Holder (Tool Change Capable) Production Run

[Ray Kholodovsky]

A few of us have been working on getting the tool change compatible Juki holder (like this one) reverse engineered, improved, and ready for manufacture right here in the USA.  Well, after a month of hard work I'm proud to introduce the new Juki nozzle holder:

A video introduction is available here:  https://youtu.be/Rm-aIyV9Cko

To elaborate on some of the points made in the video intro:  this holder has been improved by removing unnecessary cutouts and features such as the cup washer (the e-ring will retain the spring fully) and the half-oval cutout + threaded hole + screw to keep the collar from rotating on the main shaft (it shouldn't turn on it's own and it really doesn't matter if it does. 

It is specc'ed to extremely precise tolerances that should ensure a snug fit onto the motor shaft but not require a vise, and the concentricity tolerance (runout) has been set to .001" (0.0.0254).  Mathematically this should allow for great placements down to 0402's, although around that size and lower, you'll want up facing vision, which I believe is on the development roadmap.  

The Juki nozzle is retained using a detent mechanism of 3 balls in pockets spaced 120 degrees apart. 

As you may have seen in the video, I had a prototype SLA printed from our CAD Models and the mechanism works great.  

This is where I need your help.  I've secured some quotes at a machine shop in New Jersey, just 40 minutes away from me, so we can get these manufactured and assembled right here in the USA , at the incredible price of $40 per assembled unit + $5 shipping to anywhere in the country.    I'm happy to ship international but will be unable to provide a quote until I have your address, so just be aware that I'll charge international shipping at a later point when I'm creating the shipping labels.  

In order to achieve this phenomenal pricing I have to order 100 units at a time, so if you're interested please comment here with how many units you are interested in and please indicate whether international shipping will be required (what country you are in).  Once we have a decent # of orders, I will issue Paypal invoices and place the order with the machine shop.

We're looking at around a 6-8 week lead time from the time the order is placed - the machine shop turns the parts around in 20 business days, which is 4 weeks, and then I need some time to hand assemble the individual units - so I think that gives me enough breathing room. I do want to point out that although we do have validation in CAD that everything works and there is no interference, and my printed prototypes function great, this is still very much an experimental item so please be prepared for that. 

Thank you for your support,

Ray Kholodovsky

[Graeme Bridge]

Awesome work Ray

What material did you end up with? pencil me in for a pair :)

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Thanks Graeme!  Brass 360 for the machined parts.  

PM me your address and I'll figure out what shipping looks like at some point.  

[Graeme Bridge]

Will shoot you an email, we also need to hack this feeder :P

[Jason von Nieda]

Great work Ray! This turned out really nice and I like the simplified models you (and Graeme and Mark) came up with. I also like the use of brass and I think this will mate smoother than the steel ones. Count me in for two, please.

Jason

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/2b25c2fe-3d6e-4a04-bbf1-fcd81dab8c24%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Joao Matos]

Great work. Count me in for two with international shipping to Portugal.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 9:58:57 PM UTC+1, Ray Kholodovsky wrote:

[Karl Lew]

Two for me too, please. 😀

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Yeah, major credit to Graeme Bridge for getting us started with CAD and Mark Harris for the enormous amount of time spent in Solidworks modeling these parts in various configurations and creating drawings for the machine shop. The phenomenal renders you saw above were all him.  

[Julia Longtin]

A pair here, as well.

On 4/19/16, Karl Lew <ka...@firepick.org> wrote:
> Two for me too, please. 😀
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "OpenPnP" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/942f4caa-f21c-433e-b930-03efcabbb490%40googlegroups.com.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Ok, 10 units committed so far, nice!

[mojalovaa1]

Ray , can that nozzle holder use all so for automatical change nozzle or only for manual ?

How much is price for one that holder ?
I work on design new pnp machine and  search something similar , if you  can send me more info on PP ? 

[Ray Kholodovsky]

It is $40 USD each + shipping.

Since it is the same mechanism, I think it can be used for automatic tool change like you can see in the video here: https://vimeo.com/144454866  but I have not yet tested this, so I cannot make this guarantee.  When we have an STL model made for that nozzle rack, we can test this.  

[mojalovaa1]

Yes on this video make auto change but if you see  that  plastic nozzle holder   have  the upper side at an angle .
With out that angle not have chance for make  auto change , you are can add small  spring on out side  holder where is ball and then can use for  every changer .

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Yes, so we design and print the plastic nozzle rack with the same angled top wall you see there.  The angle pushes the collar up, releasing the balls, while the widest part of the nozzle is held in the rack.  The nozzle is now free.  Reverse to capture a new nozzle.  

This product is based on the holder you see in the video, so I do not see why anything different has to be done.  

[Brian Bland]

Ray,

I will take one.

Brian

[Richard Sim]

Put me down for 4 please!

Are the CAD files posted somewhere?

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Sure thing.

Richard, CAD still needs some minor changes so after that's done (which will probably be around the time that the order is placed, to be on the safe side), will probably be the best time to release it.

Mark Harris did all the CAD work so I will defer to him for publishing so he can take the credit. 

[Anthony Webb]

Put me down for a pair as well. Great community effort!

[Graeme Bridge]

No worries Ray, i enjoyed the teardown process and i had some down time to get the base model drawn

As Anthony said great community effort and even better to see the parts being made in america rather than china 

If there are a bunch of european I'm happy to on ship from the UK if it saves people money

[Genie Kobayashi]

Hi Ray, it's a really good job! I wish to order 2, ship to Japan. My friend may make another order. Thanks to this wonderful community!

[cf]

I would also like two holders.

[Juha M]

 Two holders ship to Finland, thanks

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Awesome everybody!  That's 24 by my count.  

We need at least a few more orders, then start dealing with accepting payments, and then get the production run started. 

[Charles Yarnold]

2 please to the uk!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/2b25c2fe-3d6e-4a04-bbf1-fcd81dab8c24%40googlegroups.com.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Absolutely!  If we have more than 2 people in the UK I will look into whether it makes sense to send Graeme or someone there a bunch of these and have him ship locally.

[nonoHerbert Larbie]

Hi Ray,

excellent work, I am based in the UK, I have been checking out  this group for a while. I will take two pieces.

Herbert 

[Graeme Bridge]

Ray I'm happy to post on in the UK, if the UK people let me have their details i can just work the postage and let every one know and we can do the shipping through paypal

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Graeme, perfect timing, can you look into what it would cost you to mail a small packet, in the range of 1 - 8 ounces, within the UK, and get back to me please?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/openpnp/82hIAKQZnr0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/585771d4-57d9-4b0a-b960-d05ba0e56b15%40googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Ray

[Graeme Bridge]

Ray see screen shot 

[Scott Ellis]

Count me in for one. Have a shipito address in the US, makes that part easy (I am in Australia)

Scott

On 20/04/2016 6:58 AM, Ray Kholodovsky wrote:

A few of us have been working on getting the tool change compatible Juki holder (like this one) reverse engineered, improved, and ready for manufacture right here in the USA.  Well, after a month of hard work I'm proud to introduce the new Juki nozzle holder:

A video introduction is available here:  https://youtu.be/Rm-aIyV9Cko

To elaborate on some of the points made in the video intro:  this holder has been improved by removing unnecessary cutouts and features such as the cup washer (the e-ring will retain the spring fully) and the half-oval cutout + threaded hole + screw to keep the collar from rotating on the main shaft (it shouldn't turn on it's own and it really doesn't matter if it does. 

It is specc'ed to extremely precise tolerances that should ensure a snug fit onto the motor shaft but not require a vise, and the concentricity tolerance (runout) has been set to .001" (0.0.0254).  Mathematically this should allow for great placements down to 0402's, although around that size and lower, you'll want up facing vision, which I believe is on the development roadmap.  

The Juki nozzle is retained using a detent mechanism of 3 balls in pockets spaced 120 degrees apart. 

As you may have seen in the video, I had a prototype SLA printed from our CAD Models and the mechanism works great.  

This is where I need your help.  I've secured some quotes at a machine shop in New Jersey, just 40 minutes away from me, so we can get these manufactured and assembled right here in the USA , at the incredible price of $40 per assembled unit + $5 shipping to anywhere in the country.    I'm happy to ship international but will be unable to provide a quote until I have your address, so just be aware that I'll charge international shipping at a later point when I'm creating the shipping labels.  

In order to achieve this phenomenal pricing I have to order 100 units at a time, so if you're interested please comment here with how many units you are interested in and please indicate whether international shipping will be required (what country you are in).  Once we have a decent # of orders, I will issue Paypal invoices and place the order with the machine shop.

We're looking at around a 6-8 week lead time from the time the order is placed - the machine shop turns the parts around in 20 business days, which is 4 weeks, and then I need some time to hand assemble the individual units - so I think that gives me enough breathing room. I do want to point out that although we do have validation in CAD that everything works and there is no interference, and my printed prototypes function great, this is still very much an experimental item so please be prepared for that. 

Thank you for your support,

Ray Kholodovsky

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/2b25c2fe-3d6e-4a04-bbf1-fcd81dab8c24%40googlegroups.com.

[Peter Betz]

Nice work!!

I will certainly be interested in a couple of them as well, just refusing to spend any more money on my PnP until I actually assemble a circuit board, Haha. I will also have to look into removing my freshly pressed on robotdigg adapters.

Peter.

[DAniel Dumitru]

Since you said that you need to reach 100 pieces (or so) , please count
me for 2 pieces.
Shipping to Bucharest Romania.

Kind regards,
Daniel

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Lisandro B]

AWESOME

2 more here, shipping to Argentina, I'll pm the address

[Ray Kholodovsky]

The interest so far has been phenomenal. We're at 33 so far.  Let's see if we can get to 50. 

[Malte R.]

34 + 35; count me in for a set of two :-)

[janne68]

Two for me, shipped to sweden.

/Janne 

[Robert Walter]

Ray,

Could you please provide the overall length of the nozzle holder....

Thanks.
Rob

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Robert -

if you reference the renders in the original post you will see the main shaft and the collar which slides up and down on it.

The main shaft is 30mm long.  When the collar is retracted for tool change it sits flush with the bottom of the shaft.  When the collar is fully extended the unit is32.5mm long.

Unofficially, I also estimate overall length of the entire system with a 503 nozzle in place as 54mm.

[Robert Walter]

Ray,

Awesome! Nice work.

Put me down for 2 please.

I have a mail drop in Washington State, so USPS shipping is perfect for me. Let me know when you need payment, and total with shipping.

Rob

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Up to 39 units.

Ok, let's talk payments and shipping.  I have 2 options I can propose:

This is going through my company, Cohesion3D LLC.  For the time being, I have free credit card processing through Braintree (PayPal owns them, but it's more a backend, so I'd have to set up an ecommerce storefront to actually use them).  Every little $ of savings helps.  You input the credit card details directly, you can't sign in with PayPal.

Option 2, just set up a Paypal account for the company and send you all invoices.  

If the majority of you prefer PayPal then the web store option is a moot point for the time being, but I do have to set that up sooner rather than later for the Smoothieboard derivative I designed.  I also don't know how international payments play out using credit cards on your ends. I know PayPal just charges me an extra 1% for cross border transactions, I believe the same is true for Braintree.  

As far as shipping, it's going to be 5 bucks to America.  Once I have the product in hand, and have a final weight of the package, I can assess quotes for international. There's a few different rate schedules, ie: Canada is cheaper than UK is cheaper than everywhere else, and there's a cheaper rate for a package up to 8 oz and a more expensive rate (around double) for 9 ounces up till a much higher value.  All this is going through USPS. 

Either way, this is going to take me a few days to set up, I'm still working out some details with the shop, and hopefully in a few days we can start taking care of payments. Let me know what you all prefer. 

Thanks for the support,

Ray

[Jason von Nieda]

Either is fine with me, prefer PayPal

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/7d44ccd4-5eed-4d48-9f08-405095712a61%40googlegroups.com.

[Julia Longtin]

no bitcoin? ;)

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/7d44ccd4-5eed-4d48-9f08-405095712a61%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .

>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "OpenPnP" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CA%2BQw0jwBPQj2ev-wp1p4%3DHt5PDSyJ8UJ0cH3pP6epQ%2B8kr7L7Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Graeme Bridge]

paypal for me Ray

[Anthony Webb]

Paypal is nice and easy for me

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/05375001-e7e7-4161-8ed5-13e92bfa3474%40googlegroups.com.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

That's enough feedback for me, PayPal it is.  I'll get that set up.  

[Michael Anton]

Is there any reason that the holder couldn't be made shorter still, just by cutting the end off, and moving the tapped hole?  I may like an even shorter version, so if these could be modified after the fact that would be ideal for me.

Mike

On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 2:58:57 PM UTC-6, Ray Kholodovsky wrote:

A few of us have been working on getting the tool change compatible Juki holder (like this one) reverse engineered, improved, and ready for manufacture right here in the USA.  Well, after a month of hard work I'm proud to introduce the new Juki nozzle holder:

A video introduction is available here:  https://youtu.be/Rm-aIyV9Cko

To elaborate on some of the points made in the video intro:  this holder has been improved by removing unnecessary cutouts and features such as the cup washer (the e-ring will retain the spring fully) and the half-oval cutout + threaded hole + screw to keep the collar from rotating on the main shaft (it shouldn't turn on it's own and it really doesn't matter if it does. 

It is specc'ed to extremely precise tolerances that should ensure a snug fit onto the motor shaft but not require a vise, and the concentricity tolerance (runout) has been set to .001" (0.0.0254).  Mathematically this should allow for great placements down to 0402's, although around that size and lower, you'll want up facing vision, which I believe is on the development roadmap.  

The Juki nozzle is retained using a detent mechanism of 3 balls in pockets spaced 120 degrees apart. 

[NealG]

I'am going to need two.

thans

Neal 

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Michael - 

We actually put in a pocket on the inside for the end of the motor shaft to seat against.  This means that after the initial flat bottom hole on the top, the internal diameter is too small for the motor shaft.  You'd actually have to drill out the whole thing to 4.97mm which is not something I recommend, especially not when considering the extreme precision we are having this made at.  

Here's a pic so you can see what's going on.

Cheers,

Ray

[Michael Anton]

That is unfortunate.  If the stepper shaft was longer, it would be better to be able to insert if further into the nozzle holder, as that would also help reduce the runout.

Mike

[Andrew Frazer]

Have you considered having this machined in China?   I know you'll all cringe and say, it wont' be good neough blah blah.. but seriously it looks expensive for $40..  I could get this priced up if you wanted.

[Cri S]

If i look at your rendering and compare that with nozzle image,https://www.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smtnet.com%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2Fmd_JUKI%2520nozzle%2520smt%2520nozzle%2520500%2520nozzle.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smtnet.com%2Fparts%2Findex.cfm%3Ffuseaction%3Dview_item%26item_id%3D111952&docid=h8BUSyCeJQTXEM&tbnid=wNHKm_qtp4xWaM%3A&w=600&h=400&hl=it-IT&client=ms-unknown&bih=518&biw=320&ved=0ahUKEwjrpeWGhaLMAhWbF8AKHVcAB8QQMwg_KBkwGQ&iact=mrc&uact=8 my impression is that it makes contact only with upper ring and not the lower that should give stability in my eyes. Is this impression correct?

[Graeme Bridge]

If this was made in china i wouldn't be ordering, too much manufacturing goes to china. Its time to make a stand and support our own manufacturing.

If you want a Chinese one you can buy it direct already at $130 personally $40 is cheap for a precision made part supporting the USA and creating jobs but thats just my opinion 

[Cri S]

What is the cost for making additional some blanks that can be used for 3d printed gripper and pogo pin programming.

[Graeme Bridge]

Cri, could you not print an adaptor so it goes where the juke nozzle would go?

[Cri S]

For programming maybe, it don't use air. Gripper use vacuum and pressure and position must be good and repeatable for inserting connectors, I don't think that soft plastic works on that.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/openpnp/82hIAKQZnr0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/9606926e-3504-440f-adac-b3891672fabd%40googlegroups.com.

[Cri S]

What is the total length of nozzle and holder measured from motor. I attach image of juki nozzle.

[Graeme Bridge]

Cri see Ray's post below

Ray Kholodovsky

Apr 21 (17 hours ago)

Robert -

if you reference the renders in the original post you will see the main shaft and the collar which slides up and down on it.

The main shaft is 30mm long.  When the collar is retracted for tool change it sits flush with the bottom of the shaft.  When the collar is fully extended the unit is32.5mm long.

Unofficially, I also estimate overall length of the entire system with a 503 nozzle in place as 54mm.

- show quoted text -

[Cri S]

I have seen it, but it don't answer my question as when I check the rendering and length is 30mm, pocket seems to me 8mm and not 13 and further it seems that nozzle is not near touching pocket end.
I know, its a risk ordering 20 for a design that don't have seal and potentially don't work on devices using the internal vacuum pump.
Further if there require higher mount than space allows its a KO criteria.

[Robert Walter]

What do you mean by "for a design that don't have seal and potentially don't work on devices using the internal vacuum pump". If there are no seals, I will remove my order for +2. It does not make sense to build any of these if a set of suitable o-ring grooves at both the nozzle connection and motor shaft connection points. We could probably get away with some sealant at the motor shaft due to the tight tolerance at the motor shaft, but there is definitely a need for a seal at the nozzle connection point.

My $0.02 worth.

[Graeme Bridge]

This is a copy of the Juki holder, the only thing omitted is the filter that goes inside the holder. The O Ring is on the nozzle, if you google search Juki Nozzle O ring you can see they are a flat type seal

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Good morning folks.  First of all here are some dimensions that were requested.  The pocket for the motor shaft is 5mm deep.  This is to ensure consistency if you have 2 heads side by side, each one will be at the exact same height.  It also keeps things square, giving the end of the motor shaft something to seat against during installation.  This will help alleviate runout considering how short the Nema8 shaft  is. 

There is a 2mm gap from the top of the juki head to the pocket.  We did this because both alignment and vacuum come from the bottom of the holder mating with the flat of the Juki.  That's what creates the seal.  The detent balls keep it tight in that position. 

The printed one of these that I have been testing with picks up a TQFP-100 Microcontroller and D2PAK MOSFET no problem, using a cheap Tetra 40 aquarium pump modified for suction. I didn't even have a set screw holding the motor in, that was just a snug fit between it and the motor shaft.  No o-rings either.  Just "metal" on metal contact, exactly how the Chinese one we derived this from works.  

What is meant by an "internal vacuum pump"?  You hook this up to one end of the Nema 8 motor and then you run a hose with your suction to the other end.  The pump and solenoid valve are elsewhere.  

There's certainly space for you to put o-rings, you'd need an 5mm OD one for the motor side, and a 7mm OD, 2mm tall one for the seal between the juki and the holder.  As of this time, the design works without them and I believe adding o-rings will actually hurt runout more than it will help with anything, and as of this time they will not be a part of the finished product. 

Regarding China:  What assurances do I have that they will abide by my requested tolerances or quality standards?  This is a precision part, which the last 10 companies to try making it have failed miserably because I keep hearing about how everything people have used so far has runout, runout, runout, unusable, runout, and so on.  I'm particularly going to enjoy taking a 40 minute drive to pick these up from a respected shop when they are ready.  I'm paying them substantially extra money because of that .001" runout tolerance on the main holder part.  I'm careful not to over-promise the moon here, and acknowledge that there is always some risk when doing a first production run, which I was very up front about in the initial post, but I truly believe we have done everything possible to mitigate as much of that risk as we can and provide a usable, quality product.  

Sincerely,

Ray

[Robert Walter]

Ray,

Please don't take of my criticism as anything but constructive. I would love this nozzle holder to be perfect, hence me jumping on the "o-ring wagon".

Personally, I would make the following minor modifications...

1) I would extend the motor shaft bore about a mm to allow the insertion of a small o-ring / flat face seal to be compressed between the bottom of the nozzle holder bore, and the front face of the motor shaft. Minor detail, but this would not affect runout in any way, and would eliminate one possible leak point.

2) I would adjust your clearance between the top face of the nozzle and the opposing face of the nozzle holder such that a small standard size o-ring or gasket could be inserted into the bore so that when the nozzle is installed, a seal is made. A soft silicone o-ring and a little grease to provide surface tension / adhesion should suffice to keep the ring in place. Obviously, a small o-ring groove would be better, but not absolutely necessary.

In any case, these changes should not affect build cost, but would provide the necessary sealing mechanism to make an already great piece, perfect.

Great job so far.

Rob.

[Graeme Bridge]

Extending the bore would then make it impossible for those of us who don't feel the need to run an o-ring to get the motor shaft to A) Seal and B) sit square on the motor shaft.

Even if you seal those two points you still have 3 holes on that shaft with ball bearings that lock the nozzle in place that could be a source of vacuum leak.

Juki have been running this design in production units for years using the 500 series nozzle. looking through user manuals i don't see any reference to any seals listed on the nozzle assembly even as a spare part.

Just my opinion 

[Anthony Webb]

I would consider my design very "leaky" I didnt bother to seal anything, and I've never failed to be able to suck stuff parts up and deliver them adequately. Even will a $12 pump.  I'm not too concerned about leakage here until/if things start to fail, but I imagine it will be fine.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/f5f5b751-ece1-4b92-a3a2-076406c6353f%40googlegroups.com.

[Graeme Bridge]

Agreed in fact having to much vacuum is more of a problem as the parts don't release when placed lol then you need to have suck blow to get them of the tip

[Robert Walter]

Graeme,

1) I can't see your logic. Either you make a seal with a seal, or your don't. If you can't get the motor shaft to make a seal along the depth of the bore,  there is no possibility that it will seal at the end. (at least not without an o-ring or gasket).

2) If a seal or o-ring is placed at the back of the nozzle holder, when the nozzle is inserted, it will ensure no vacuum is lost at the three holes. That is the point.

See picture above for details of o-ring locations marked in red.

Rob

[Jason von Nieda]

Just for the record, I am using an adapter quite similar to this and it has no seals. The fits are close enough that the leaks are minimal. I'm picking up everything from 0603s to TQFP-100s using the standard "SparkFun pump" and having no problems. I personally don't think the o-rings are needed here.

Like Anthony, my system is inherently "leaky". I use zipties to hook tubes together and my vacuum termination is just a hose jammed into a 3D printed block. There is ample vacuum at the tip to pick up everything I've tried so far.

Jason

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/92b8e8d8-efa7-4e5a-962e-5c758713b682%40googlegroups.com.

[Graeme Bridge]

The back of the nozzle is angled to meet the same angle on the inside of the holder so that the nozzle is held in alignment. If you put an O ring there you won't get the precision alignment of the nozzle.

As for the motor end i would be more worried about how you plan to attach your vacuum line to the motor shaft as thats the bigger leak point than the coupler

[Robert Walter]

Graeme.

There does not seem to be any detail in any of the drawings that shows an angled receiver / mating surface for the nozzle. Maybe I am missing something, or the 3D view is not complete up above.

In any case, I was just trying to put my recommendations in. I am not trying to slam the design. I just typically prefer to design a leak free system (or best effort).

One head with a little leakage is no big deal, but with multiple heads, a small leak at each nozzle starts to add up. Even the openBuilds design has valving for releasing the vacuum, so one would assume that keeping things tight was somewhat of a priority. Keeping vacuum with a single head / single part is not such an issue. If has nothing else to affect. When you pick one part up, and then move to use a second nozzle, and open the vacuum valve, you immediately get a large drop in vacuum due to the short duration in absence of part. By minimizing leaks at every opportunity, you reduce the risk of parts moving at the head.

Only trying to help.

Rob.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

No angled surface for final mating.  Small chamfer on the bottom ID of the holder and the Juki has a chamfer on the top for initial entry, but mating when fully seated is just a matter of the Juki outer wall seating against the inner vertical wall of the holder.  

Jason did a poll recently about all your Juki nozzle diameters and all the results were quite close to 6.99, and the ID of our shaft there is 7.  It's a good fit.  I have gotten undersized Juki nozzles once or twice, but that has all been localized to a particular seller that I no longer use.  

Robert - I do not plan to increase the 5mm pocket depth for the motor.  As Graeme stated, this would not allow the motor shaft to seat fully for those not using o-rings.  Why don't you just use an o-ring in it as is, and then you will have 4mm of motor shaft in the pocket?  Similarly, for the bottom holder you can easily source 7mm OD o-rings that are 2mm tall, and find a way to keep them in there during tool change, as you alluded to previously.  That would fill the entire area you marked with red, as that is 2mm tall.  

[Ray Kholodovsky]

I sent PayPal invoices to most of you.  

I need an email address for Lisandro B

and I need to check whether CF and/ or Malte are international. 

Otherwise, you should have received an invoice from Cohesion3D LLC

Thank you,

Ray

[mojalovaa1]

I m see now this vacuum pump , look that is very nice for use on PnP machine : http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-24V-Micro-vacuum-pump-airp-pump-For-segregating-unit-Split-screen-machine-diy/32459422648.html?spm=2114.40010508.4.18.8IT8np

If some one buy it  for use on this nozzle holder will be nice that write experience with that pump and this  nozzle holder .

[Anthony Webb]

That is the pump I use.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 4:07 PM, mojalovaa1 <moja...@gmail.com> wrote:

I m see now this vacuum pump , look that is very nice for use on PnP machine : http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-24V-Micro-vacuum-pump-airp-pump-For-segregating-unit-Split-screen-machine-diy/32459422648.html?spm=2114.40010508.4.18.8IT8np

If some one buy it  for use on this nozzle holder will be nice that write experience with that pump and this  nozzle holder .

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/4273b5fb-1864-49b4-b97c-555b71044457%40googlegroups.com.

[mojalovaa1]

And what is yours conclusion?

[Ray Kholodovsky]

I used the name of that one as my search parameters and found this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Top-Selling-DC-12V-50Kpa-DC-Micro-Vacuum-Pump-Pumping-Air-pump-Air-sampling-Liquid-Pump/32602450913.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.140.waBGns&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10037_10034_507_10032_10020_10017_10005_10006_10021_10022_10009_10008_10018_10019,searchweb201603_9&btsid=4cb23e71-06d9-4bcc-98ce-02eb220894f3

which is the same 50Kpa vacuum as yours claims.  I need 12v, and this looks like the infamous Sparkfun pump, so I will give it a shot.  

[Andrew Frazer]

On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 11:43:52 PM UTC+12, Graeme Bridge wrote:

If this was made in china i wouldn't be ordering, too much manufacturing goes to china. Its time to make a stand and support our own manufacturing.

This makes the bold assumption that the world starts in Seattle and extends to New York City.. there is a planet outside of the USA....   

 

[Andrew Frazer]

Regarding China:  What assurances do I have that they will abide by my requested tolerances or quality standards?  This is a precision part, which the last 10 companies to try making it have failed miserably because I keep hearing about how everything people have used so far has runout, runout, runout, unusable, runout, and so on.  I'm particularly going to enjoy taking a 40 minute drive to pick these up from a respected shop when they are ready.  I'm paying them substantially extra money because of that .001" runout tolerance on the main holder part.  I'm careful not to over-promise the moon here, and acknowledge that there is always some risk when doing a first production run, which I was very up front about in the initial post, but I truly believe we have done everything possible to mitigate as much of that risk as we can and provide a usable, quality product.  

The reality is that there is good and bad manufacturing everywhere.  I'm sure you can find some machining folks who will produce some garbage in the USA, and some folks who will produce wonderful products.   As for assurances,  you need to do your legwork in china.   I'm fortunate i work with two exceptionally good companies who reliably produce excellent results.      The cost of finding them and maintaining relationships with them is often high, and sometimes its too hard.   

 

[Julia Longtin]

Ok, I've paid for my nozzle adaptors. When do I get source code in a
usable format, under a reasonable license?

Julia Longtin

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "OpenPnP" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/3b133329-1ea6-4921-bed5-7b96104f8727%40googlegroups.com.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Hi Julia,

I believe that paying supporters have first privileges in regard to source files. As far as a public release of source, my thinking would be after the first batch is fulfilled.  

Let me ask you the following:

What type of file and format would you like, and consider usable?  

What stipulations would you want in a license?  

I would gladly send you or anyone else in the 'paying supporters' classification our files, but I would think it is best to wait at least until the order with the shop is placed, such that there is no disparity if any final changes are made. 

Looking forward to your thoughts, and thank you all for your support.

Ray

[Peter Betz]

You aren't open sourcing the nozzle holder ??

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/openpnp/82hIAKQZnr0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/8227049c-85f6-401f-af24-54b88611f389%40googlegroups.com.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

I didn't say that.  Sure we are.  I just want to make sure the files we release are functional before we do distribute them publicly.   To avoid any confusion, until that time, if you want them, just email me and ask.  

Personally, I don't care about licenses.  I'll post the files up on Github or somewhere for people to do with as they please when it's ready.

But, since this is an effort based around the community, I posed the following questions in response to Julia so that you all can weigh in on what license or stipulations you would like.  

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Per their requests, I sent the files to Richard, Julia, and Peter, and will be happy to do so for anyone else until we release them publicly. 

[Julia Longtin]

Ray,

I'm a Free Software / Hardware Zealot. something similar to copyleft
is what i'm looking for. I don't know about others.

Julia Longtin

On 4/23/16, Ray Kholodovsky <rayk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Per their requests, I sent the files to Richard, Julia, and Peter, and will
>
> be happy to do so for anyone else until we release them publicly.
>
> On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 11:23:48 PM UTC-4, Ray Kholodovsky wrote:
>>
>> I didn't say that. Sure we are. I just want to make sure the files we
>> release are functional before we do distribute them publicly. To avoid
>> any confusion, until that time, if you want them, just email me and ask.
>>
>>
>> Personally, I don't care about licenses. I'll post the files up on Github
>>
>> or somewhere for people to do with as they please when it's ready.
>> But, since this is an effort based around the community, I posed the
>> following questions in response to Julia so that you all can weigh in on
>> what license or stipulations you would like.
>>
>> On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 11:15:19 PM UTC-4, Peter Betz wrote:
>>>
>>> You aren't open sourcing the nozzle holder ??
>>>
>>> Peter Betz

>>> BETZtechnik.ca <http://betztechnik.ca>

>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/8227049c-85f6-401f-af24-54b88611f389%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>

>>> .
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>>
>
> --

> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "OpenPnP" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/81296f5c-ee88-4f8f-b8b8-347f596de65e%40googlegroups.com.

[Graeme Bridge]

Well considering I'm in the UK that statement is kind off mute

I do my damn best to support every country but china, I'm sorry but the world is in a huge mess and the only way it will get fixed is when people realise that dumping everything of to china to be manufactured is not the solution.

Now if you feel that taking manufacturing jobs away from your own country is acceptable thats up to you.

I also think that the consumer needs to be re educated that cheap goods arnt the solution, once upon a time everything was made to be repairable not disposable this resulted in companies and individuals supporting product after the manufacture no longer did. It created manufacturing jobs for those spares and service jobs for those who carried out the repairs two whole tiers of employment which are no longer important.

Now i fully understand that some things simply can't be made outside of china due to lack of investment and training but when things can be made in home countries supporting those businesses that can manufacture it should be a priority

I own my own business building studio monitors for the music industry, I have my cabinets made in Italy, the drive units come from Norway the amplification the Netherlands my cables are UK and USA sourced and manufactured my PCB is UK manufactured and UK assembled as is all my metal work

Im proud that I can stand by my product and say no sir it wasn't manufactured in china

Rant over, I'm sorry but i feel very strongly every time some one makes a decision to support the chinese economy because they don't give a rats ass about yours or mine

[Andrew Frazer]

On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 6:40:13 PM UTC+12, Graeme Bridge wrote:

Well considering I'm in the UK that statement is kind off mute

Ok, i'll apologise for the assumption you where american.  

 

I do my damn best to support every country but china, I'm sorry but the world is in a huge mess and the only way it will get fixed is when people realise that dumping everything of to china to be manufactured is not the solution.

Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam are the dumping ground for low cost manufacturing. China is growing up and getting very good at lots of things.  If the rest of the world however learns how to be as productive and economic as china, then i'll gladly buy from them.  On the other hand, The chinese buy an awful lot from me, so spending some RMB up there is not all bad is it? 

Now if you feel that taking manufacturing jobs away from your own country is acceptable thats up to you.

im happy to move manufacturing jobs out of here, and replace them with high end jobs where we make good money. High Value Service industry is where we sit.  That might be different for you. 

I also think that the consumer needs to be re educated that cheap goods arnt the solution,

Nor are uncompetitively priced products the solution. 

 

Rant over, I'm sorry but i feel very strongly every time some one makes a decision to support the chinese economy because they don't give a rats ass about yours or mine

the Net Flow of money between china and this economy is towards here.  They are spending way more than we are.  Should i stop that?  Oh then our children woud'tn have food to eat...     

[Graeme Bridge]

Agreed that  malaysia,indonesia and vietnam ar ether new dumping ground and I'm not prepared to go there either

Sadly without manufacturing jobs a country can not survive, its part of the ladder to better jobs. If you remove the lower rungs then how can some one climb that ladder?

I didnt just wake up and start my own business, i started in a manufacturing position and worked my way to designer in the company i used to work for.

The UK is in a mess because the skilled worker jobs are now struggling to find people to do these after apprenticeships and vocational studies were seen as a bad thing and that every child should leave school and go get a degree no matter what that degree was in or how pointless it was either

Now we have a service industry but have no manufacturing or engineering and companies are struggling to fulfil vacancies

Interesting that you note china buys from other countries, Having worked in the high end industry for 20 years the chinese won't even touch goods made in their own country because of inferior quality yet the rest of the world is happy to buy sub standard goods because they are cheap. I find that ironic

I also find the fact china whilst making everyone else goods is struggling to design and build its own without resorting to blatant copying of western products

Im not sure where you are but in the UK and Europe we have a huge issue with china dumping steel at below cost price because there economy can't stop making thousands of tons of the stuff once again proving that china cares only about itself.

[Andrew Frazer]

On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 7:13:06 PM UTC+12, Graeme Bridge wrote:

Agreed that  malaysia,indonesia and vietnam ar ether new dumping ground and I'm not prepared to go there either

When the UK once again becomes the dumping ground, will you buy from china?  Not seriously..

>Sadly without manufacturing jobs a country can not survive, its part of the ladder to better jobs. If you remove the lower rungs then how can ?>some one climb that ladder?

that is an intereting perspectice.  I did'tn end up where i am today,  just by going to university and learning it. It was a collection of experiences

>I didnt just wake up and start my own business, i started in a manufacturing position and worked my way to designer in the company i usedto >work for.

The UK is in a mess because the skilled worker jobs are now struggling to find people to do these after apprenticeships and vocational studies were seen as a bad thing and that every child should leave school and go get a degree no matter what that degree was in or how pointless it was either

Yeah, we are screaming out for Sparkys, builders, plumberts.. i guess we dont' have free open borders to Europe ( Britexit? ) 

Now we have a service industry but have no manufacturing or engineering and companies are struggling to fulfil vacancies

 

Interesting that you note china buys from other countries, Having worked in the high end industry for 20 years the chinese won't even touch goods made in their own country because of inferior quality yet the rest of the world is happy to buy sub standard goods because they are cheap. I find that ironic

Read this interesting story about rice-cookers

http://www.chinaskinny.com/blog/china-o2o-subsidies-rice-cookers/

I also find the fact china whilst making everyone else goods is struggling to design and build its own without resorting to blatant copying of western products

 

>Im not sure where you are but in the UK and Europe we have a huge issue with china dumping steel at below cost price because there ?>economy can't stop making thousands of tons of the stuff once again proving that china cares only about itself.

Sorry we are selling china the high quality coking coal they need to make the steel. :-(  And Australia is selling them the Iron Ore.

 

its cyclic.  That economy will spin down evntually, you will need to refocus and take the opportunitys as they come..

this is a bit of topic though..

[cf]

I live in Issaquah outside Seattle, don't know if that count as International ?

CF

[Peter Betz]

Hi Ray,

Whoops, I should have read more carefully (I only really really saw keywords, like "paying supporters" and "licence" and immediately armed the CAPS LOCK).

Great work by the way. Today I am going to try and get my PnP to move for the first time!

As for the rest of this thread, I feel the need to quote Ron Burgundy : "Boy, that escalated quickly...."

Peter.

[Rich Obermeyer]

@Graeme, I live in California and as I read your rant, I wish I had written it.  Point by point I am with you!  China is not doing any of us any favors.  They spend plenty in the USA all right but it's buying up everything American and taking it to be made in China.  Research will show UK is in similar position.  Soon enough technology will be nothing but a shell.  They copy pretty much any new technology we engineers come up with and sell it back to us for cheap.  No incentive to invest in anything. We will be ripped off.  World is in a sad situation. Until others realize it's not so cheap from China after all.  There is a price!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenPnP" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openpnp+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ope...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/78b16634-01d5-4914-b43c-433b5116bb32%40googlegroups.com.

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi folks,

While I do find this China vs. The World discussion interesting, it's off topic. If you really want to keep this going, please create a new topic instead of cluttering Ray's nozzle holder topic.

Thanks,

Jason

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/8B226213-F0B3-41AF-A6BF-177B7C4DEDA3%40gmail.com.

[Graeme Bridge]

Id like to apologise to Ray and Jason for hijacking this thread, it something i feel very passionate  about but thats no excuse.

If there is a way to mover the posts please do as i think its an interesting discussion

[Jason von Nieda]

Unfortunately Google Groups doesn't support moving messages between topics. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/d6a4eb39-f75d-488d-9b27-66bd538466d6%40googlegroups.com.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Thank you to all that have taken care of the payments in a prompt manner.

I am still waiting for payments from exactly half of the people that committed in this thread, if you haven't received a PayPal Invoice please let me know privately and confirm an email address I can re-send to.  

And if Lisandro B is reading this I need him to message me his email address for PayPal as it is masked in all his posts so that I can send him an invoice.  

I am looking forward to placing the order with the shop, hopefully this week, so please send funds promptly!

Lots of you have commended me for the work done on this, and I am humbled by all your support, I just want to mention again that Mark Harris did all the CAD and engineering on this and deserves just as much credit.  

Cheers,

Ray

[Lisandro B]

Ray: I have send you many private messages but it guess the google groups have something wrong. Just send you an email trough your g+ profile, let me know if you get it

[John Socha-Leialoha]

Are you still accepting orders? If so, I'll take 2, please. Located in US.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Yes! There are still plenty available.  I just sent you an invoice, John.  

[reade...@gmail.com]

Hey Ray,

Please send me an invoice for 2 + USA shipping.

Thanks!

[Ray Kholodovsky]

Ok folks, the order with the shop has been placed.  

Still plenty of slots available if anyone else is interested.  

[jsh...@gmail.com]

Please send me an invoice for 1 pc

Thanks