I'd welcome any comments, particularly from those who've tried out any of the above (or similar). If you'd like to either test out some and/or take the discussion away from the mailing list then I have created openmod.slack.com and openmod.ryver.com for the time being.
If we agree on one then we'll begin by using it to wrap up breakout groups from the last workshop and to start organising the next one. I imagine it won't change the frequency of posts you see on this mailing list, there just might end up being more background chatter on the topic before/after they are sent out.
Best,
Bryn
--
Bryn Pickering
PhD Student
Future Infrastructure and Built Environment Centre for Doctoral Training
University of Cambridge
bp...@cam.ac.uk
www.cdt-civil.eng.cam.ac.uk/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/1cbd9d60-477d-4ed0-844b-dd621eeb921a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Hello Bryn, all
Your posting and google docs summary present an interesting proposal. My underpinning principles are:
I have long been interested in groupware but never managed to convince colleagues to use it. So I have no direct experience.
Interestingly, only Slack, Samepage, Glip, and Zulip get coverage on Wikipedia, Ryver, Mattermost, Fleep, and Riot do not get a mention and Rocket.chat and Bitrix gain only trivial references. The Wikipedia list of collaborative software is worth a visit.
I also looked at Kolab, one which I have seen promoted, but it seems more suited to relationship management.
I personally would require any groupware application to be
completely independent of my mail client (aside from receiving
notifications). I don't know how your suggestions stack up in this
regard.
I would strongly prefer the openmod-initiative list archive to be open, referenceable by URL, and indexed by search engines. I am used to GNU projects where this is the case. An open status allows, for example, individual postings to be cited as sources on Wikipedia and elsewhere, to be cross-posted without ambiguity, and to be shared with outsiders. Maybe this is not wanted by some?
Indeed, there would be a case for making the email list open and
the groupware closed, particularly as the less resolved
discussions would then migrate to the groupware platform?
Personally I would prefer the discussion platform to be open too.
While I am reluctant to suggest a change, I prefer wikis based on
the MediaWiki
platform (as used by Wikipedia). The markup is more sophisticated
and the software is unlikely to become stranded. I wonder whether
a more feature-rich wiki might not fill the need for dedicated
groupware. Wikipedia seems to get along just fine having
(sometimes lengthy) discussions on its talk pages. The presence of
a commit log can occasionally be very useful too. Moreover the
generated content does not need reprocessing to become part of the
(public) wiki.
Just some comments. Hope these help. Thanks for your suggestions and work, Bryn. Robbie.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/1cbd9d60-477d-4ed0-844b-dd621eeb921a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- Robbie Morrison Address: Schillerstrasse 85, 10627 Berlin, Germany Phone: +49.30.612-87617
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-initiative@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/1cbd9d60-477d-4ed0-844b-dd621eeb921a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- Robbie Morrison Address: Schillerstrasse 85, 10627 Berlin, Germany Phone: +49.30.612-87617
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-initiative@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/33d76264-251a-7f72-f845-3cdda5a7d0f9%40posteo.de.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/1cbd9d60-477d-4ed0-844b-dd621eeb921a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- Robbie Morrison Address: Schillerstrasse 85, 10627 Berlin, Germany Phone: +49.30.612-87617
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
Hello Magdalena, all
Wikipedia has a page on Discourse too. The software is used by Open Knowledge International and I had a look — not much to report there though.
Some features of Discourse that I liked (in no particular order):
I read a few reviews — the following points arose:
Some policy issues for the list:
And importantly:
Of all the forum suggestions so far, this platform appeals to me most.
Finally, I note that our Stack Exchange proposal lapsed through inaction.
best wishes, Robbie
PS: Things have certainly come along way from the dial-up bulletin boards, Usenet, the web before graphics, and gopher that I have previously used. :)
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/c04cff4f-5f77-48f7-8832-e94a2b7b7976%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Thanks Robbie for the detailed analysis. I’m not at all in the subject of software for discussion platforms but I’m happy about the discussion because I really see the need for it. There are various discussion lines as follow up of the break-out-groups where I don’t know how to organize them in a way that people can follow or recap…
If possible I would really prefer to have a solution without regular direct costs. First: we don’t have regular budgets; second: If we try to find budgets for administration then a lot of people who already do it for the openmod community for free should be considered, too – and I think it will be difficult to afford it.
I just want to pronounce: That doesn’t mean I’m against fundraising! I also try to get projects where I can address tasks that we wanted to foster on the openmod platform. Then it is dedicated to special tasks (and unfortunately time limited);
If there is a chance to get unlimited funding that’s another thing. Otherwise I prefer to discuss in the community who will be able to take over some work instead of being forced to find a certain amount of funding for regular expenditures which go to people outside the community.
Did anybody following this discussion made up a comparing list? If not I can start to do that but not before end of the week.
Best
Berit
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/1cbd9d60-477d-4ed0-844b-dd621eeb921a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/33d76264-251a-7f72-f845-3cdda5a7d0f9%40posteo.de.
For more options, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to
openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/c04cff4f-5f77-48f7-8832-e94a2b7b7976%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Robbie Morrison
Address: Schillerstrasse 85, 10627 Berlin, Germany
Phone: +49.30.612-87617
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to
openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/67e4e1af-d0b8-5ce7-12e1-587cc3bcd144%40posteo.de.
Hi all,
yet another solution, which would semantically be linked closer to openmod’s GitHub account [1] , is Gitter [2]. While it is more advertised towards software projects, (cf. example Julia’s usage [3] of Gitter), its conversations are publically available, and I’m not aware of any limit. For urbs, I set up a very very low traffic channel [5] for open discussion independent of issues and pull requests.
Bonus points for Techies: the chat rooms have a (beta, but working fine for me) IRC bridge [4] for easy access from your favourite chat client.
Not a comparison table, but a list of all proposed platforms I heard so far in this discussion (sorted alphabetically):
- Bitrix
- Fleep
- Gitter
- Glip
- IRC
- Mattermost
- Riot
- Rocket.chat
- Ryver
- Samepage
- Slack
- Zulip
Best regards
Johannes
[1] https://github.com/openmod-initiative
[2] http://gitter.im
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/2261f0c280f346b4bafbcd03b2536cb6%40SRVEX.rl-institut.local.
Hello Johannes, Berit, Magdalena, all
The high level choice seems to be between a chat service (including IRC) and a web forum. The earlier suggestion of collaboration software (or groupware) seems to have receded somewhat?
I have not used chat (I
only know of the chat logs between Chelsea Manning and Adrian
Lamo) and cannot really comment. Perhaps chat focuses more on
the conversation and less on the content. If so, I lean towards
the latter.
best wishes, Robbie
Hi all,
yet another solution, which would semantically be linked closer to openmod’s GitHub account [1] , is Gitter [2]. While it is more advertised towards software projects, (cf. example Julia’s usage [3] of Gitter), its conversations are publically available, and I’m not aware of any limit. For urbs, I set up a very very low traffic channel [5] for open discussion independent of issues and pull requests.
Bonus points for Techies: the chat rooms have a (beta, but working fine for me) IRC bridge [4] for easy access from your favourite chat client.
Not a comparison table, but a list of all proposed platforms I heard so far in this discussion (sorted alphabetically):
- Bitrix
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/bc77c3983f4c4172add3d8059916f46e%40BADWLRZ-SW13MB5.ads.mwn.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/1cbd9d60-477d-4ed0-844b-dd621eeb921a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/33d76264-251a-7f72-f845-3cdda5a7d0f9%40posteo.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to op...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/c04cff4f-5f77-48f7-8832-e94a2b7b7976%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to o...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/67e4e1af-d0b8-5ce7-12e1-587cc3bcd144%40posteo.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to o...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/2261f0c280f346b4bafbcd03b2536cb6%40SRVEX.rl-institut.local.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/bc77c3983f4c4172add3d8059916f46e%40BADWLRZ-SW13MB5.ads.mwn.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Hello Bryn, Johannes, Berit, Magdalena, all
Bryn wrote:
"Having chat for conversation that forms content is something I think we're missing and its existence could move forward things like the wiki as well as fostering more of a community by allowing conversation on more "banal" topics that people might not feel fits into the forum (or at least the forum as it currently stands)."
My experience as part of the GLPK open source solver community did something like this. Threads from traffic on the mailing list were distilled out and edited into a Wikibook on the software by three or so active participants. This was admittedly an exercise in software support and software documentation, but perhaps the underlying process could be used here given suitable chat or forum traffic and sufficient interest from our community?
best wishes, Robbie
Thanks for the input everyone! I'll extend the google doc I was working on here to include all your suggestions and the pros/cons ofthem. I've also made it openly editable so people can add further to it and vote on the list of possibilities. When it has settled down sufficiently I'll probably put something on the wiki to archive the decision process.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/75131b28-436a-4039-9336-40cc8439c2f2%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Side note: The fact that we're using a Google group mailing list here already of course violates the second principle. As I stated in my very first mail to this list after I creating it in Oktober 2014, I would actually prefer a Mailman based mailing list but chose for Google groups for the ease of setting it up and maintaining it. Given that we all hvae the email messages to the list in our local folders, I think we also have some sort of distributed backup of the content, should Google decide to discontinue the service.
As for the solutions which have been proposed so far:
So, as a bottom line, my suggestion would be to create a Gitter
channel connected to the the openmod-initiative Github space, and
use that for ad-hoc communication about consolidating workshop
results etc., and use this very mailing list for the remainder. As
you saw in my other email from today, this list is going to become
public, so a big drawback in terms of open communication is soon
to be gone. If need be, we can always create separate Google
groups for more subject specific discussion groups. But for now, I
would keep the number of platforms used in parallel as
small as possible.
Thanks again for raising this discussion!
cheers
Ingmar
Ps.: Somewhere in this thread it was suggested that we switch to
a MediaWiki based wiki. In fact our wiki is already based on
MediaWiki, and even has the excellent Semantic MediaWiki extension
installed, which offers enormous capabilities. Our model fact
sheet database on the wiki
(http://wiki.openmod-initiative.org/wiki/Open_Models) makes use of
that functionality. So in my eyes, the wiki has a lot of potential
that we don't yet fully exploit. It would in my eyes be the ideal
place to consolidate workshop results into (just needs someone
doing it - so maybe we need break out group leaders to feel more
responsibility for the post-workshop consolidation).
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/eea355b3-4a8b-8fcc-f03b-726b6083509e%40posteo.de.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/33d76264-251a-7f72-f845-3cdda5a7d0f9%40posteo.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to op...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/c04cff4f-5f77-48f7-8832-e94a2b7b7976%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to o...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/67e4e1af-d0b8-5ce7-12e1-587cc3bcd144%40posteo.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to o...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/2261f0c280f346b4bafbcd03b2536cb6%40SRVEX.rl-institut.local.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/bc77c3983f4c4172add3d8059916f46e%40BADWLRZ-SW13MB5.ads.mwn.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- Robbie Morrison Address: Schillerstrasse 85, 10627 Berlin, Germany Phone: +49.30.612-87617
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/75131b28-436a-4039-9336-40cc8439c2f2%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- Robbie Morrison Address: Schillerstrasse 85, 10627 Berlin, Germany Phone: +49.30.612-87617--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "openmod initiative" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiative+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
Hello all
Additional mailing lists versus web-based forums: I wonder
whether setting up additional mailing lists might not be better
handled by a feature-rich web-based forum server like Discourse
with custom tagging and sophisticated searching and so forth. My
instinct is that people will naturally migrate to where the action
is (given that there is action) and that the barriers to
participation, like the need for an additional account, are not
particularly high. As I indicated earlier, moving to a web-based
forum will probably relegate our existing mailing list to that of
an "announce" list — with little or no discussion taking place.
Gitter: Wikipedia reports that Gitter is only free for one chat room and that additional chat rooms require a paid subscription. A single chat room seems like a considerable limitation. Which raises the question of some (modest) fund-raising to obtain a good solution?
Use cases: Some use-cases could help. One I have in mind is to collaboratively author an open access paper reviewing open energy models. Traffic on this topic would be inappropriate for a mailing list but would be facilitated by a dedicated forum or chat room. Development also could be conducted on our wiki talk pages, but that would be rather clumsy in light of the other solutions under discussion.
Wiki software (as an aside): the use of Wikipedia
templates like {{nbsp}} and {{cite journal | title = Some title}}
give errors. I would particularly like to be able to used the
latter (aka Wikimedia
Citation Templates). Is there a work-around? Do these
templates exist in another namespace perhaps? Are there
equivalents?
with best wishes, Robbie
PS: I am pleased that the mailing list is now open.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openmod-initiat...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to openmod-i...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/dcb36487-d78c-44d5-8e2f-9e4af9d92176%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Hello all
There is now a temporary wiki page on which to debate discussion servers.
Without second guessing the debate, it seems that three options are likely:
Please add technical points to the main page and opinions to the discussion page. In particular, please indicate if your institution would host software (I know my old institution would have done so).
best wishes, Robbie
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openmod-initiative/aefd1613-64c3-4845-cf8a-20172dbf84e6%40posteo.de.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.