US Z-Wave dimmer switches that support Assocation Groups?

[Bob Igo]

Months ago, with the gracious help of Chris Jackson, I tried to get a Linear WD500Z-1 working properly in openHAB. (The entire exchange is here: https://github.com/openhab/openhab/issues/1321 )

My understanding is that only z wave dimmers that support Associations (aka Association Groups) will push changes made at the physical switch to the controller (and, by extension, openHAB). The Linear device claims to support Associations, but it apparently doesn't. (The link has the details of what was tried, and what didn't work.)

As a workaround, any dimmer that doesn't support Associations can be polled by openHAB via the z wave binding at a fixed interval, using the refresh_interval z wave binding parameter.

I'm about to build a new house, and I'd like to know if anyone in the US has had success with any z wave dimmers that support Associations and work in openHAB. I'd prefer that they worked with low-current lights like LED socket bulbs (~7W or so).

I could just continue to poll via refresh_interval, but I worry that it won't scale well when a house full of (50?) dimmers is being polled every few seconds.

[Ben Jones]

I am using Fibaro dimmers (albeit the AU/NZ variety) and they have associations and update in openHAB just fine.

I am also using them with LEDs. It took a while to find LEDs that would work nicely with the dimmer module, and dim smoothly over a full range, but the ones I have now work great.

[Bob Igo]

Thanks. I've heard wonderful things about Fibaro, but they have very few products for sale in the US for some reason, so I can't use them. Their full US product line (mostly "coming soon" / preorder): http://www.fibaro.com/us/where-to-buy

[dan cunningham]

Even some switches that don't support associations will still update a controller when changes occur.  There is a command class call "ApplicationUpdate" as well as one called "Hail", both basically do the same thing. That being said, some manufacturers are better then others. 

 

The GE/Jasco switches, which do not support associations, are inexpensive and update OH a second or two after and event.  Their dimmers however are a little more disappointing, they request to be queried at the start of a dim or brighten cycle which causes the controller to never read it correctly (it gets it somewhere in a mid dim state). I have three (2 switches and a dimmer) , but have recently removed them from my system. Chris and I have talked about a workaround in OH, but I don't think its a high priority. 

 Now I have 30+ leviton switches/dimmers in my house which are great, very reliable, and high quality.  The only downside is that they use a single click button, which is great if all your switches are like that, but if you put one these next to a normal decora rocker switch, it can be confusing for users.  I have mostly the more expensive viza+ models that support associations, but I also have 5 or 6 of the less expensive model that are found in Home Depots.  Both update openHAB just fine, the viza+ models may be a  half second quicker to notify OH.

Since my previous house had all UPB, I decided to try out a few type of switches before making a big investment.  I was sure I was going the GE/Jasco route b/c they looked more like a normal switch , but after a month of running both, I ended up really liking the levitons.  

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[Mark]

+1 on the Leviton Vizia RF+ line.

I have had them for about 6yrs now, with a MiOS-based HA Controller, and their Switches, Dimmers, Appliance modules and Fan Controllers are solid.  Their regular "Vizia" line isn't Z-Wave so be very careful with the Model#'s, but these do come in handy when you want your switches to match the paddle styling.

In my Bathrooms, I use Vizia RF+ for the Fan switch, and a matching (non Z-Wave) Vizia for the switches next to it that I don't care to control/detect remotely.

One caution, I have 3 Vizia RF+ Scene Controller + 1x Load, and these periodically need to be power-cycled (they lockup, and impact the Z-Wave Network).  This happens about 2 times/yr, for each switch, and can be annoying since (for these) you have to do it at the breaker.  That said, I've had these since they first came on the market, so it might be a "first-gen" issue.

In the Vizia RF+ Line:

• Their Switches (VRS15) need a neutral
  
• Their older Dimmers (VRI06, VRI10) don't have a neutral but and can have with older LED bulbs - it depends upon the bulbs
  
• Their newer Dimmers (VRMX1) can supposedly drive a variety of load types
  
• Their Fan Controllers (VRF01) are expensive ;)
  

In my house, I've mostly swapped out regular bulbs for LED.  I use VRI06 and VRI10 Dimmers, and just have enough "bulbs" on the circuit to make up the minimum load characteristic (and I use a lot of Cree [TW] A19 bulbs from HD, and some Cree BR30's).  These won't dim to the lowest levels you might get with a regular bulb, but they work well-enough (without buzzing)

Leviton also have their DZ-series (DZS15 Switch, DZMX1 Dimmer, DZR15 Receptacle) that are sold through HD for their Wink platform as Dan mentions.  They're slightly cheaper, but they've gutted the associations so you're reliant on the other techniques to get status...  

Personally, unless I'm using these in a location where I don't need instant feedback, I wouldn't use these - given the relatively small price difference.  

I have two in my current system, but they're in locations where I can take the delayed feedback (and you'd be surprised how much of a difference a second or two makes).  Also, because they don't have Associations, they won't play with Leviton's Scene Controllers for direct-to-switch controller (IIRC)

[Bob Igo]

Thanks for those responses!

Wow. So if I want to avoid polling my US z wave dimmer switches, I need to double my cost per switch. That isn't what I was hoping for. Maybe I can mitigate the problem by polling at longer intervals, although certain rules that assume the correct state at the dimmer might cause surprises for occupants. I suppose I'll be able to minimize those.

I might still be able to find a more affordable z wave dimmer that properly pushes its state, though.

[Mark]

In the US, the Cooper Industries switches also have the Instant Status/HAIL functionality.

With the switches that rely upon the ApplicationUpdate ("I've changed") messages, the controller has to do a callback to get the actual status ("What are you set to").  These are still better than having to rely upon a pure Poll operation ... esp for the health of your Z-Wave Network @40kbits in larger networks

In some cases, like the Leviton DZ series, that callback has to be delayed (by ~2-3 seconds) or the device indicates it's busy and the call fails.

So it depends upon how important this Instant Status feature is to you.  In my case, I use it to trigger other Scenes (via the Controller) but also via local Z-Wave Scene Controllers (it's handled between devices, and the Controller isn't involved) so speed is important, but others get away without it.

Good luck on your hunt, and the new house build-out, HA definitely isn't cheap!

[Bob Igo]

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 11:40:39 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:

In the US, the Cooper Industries switches also have the Instant Status/HAIL functionality.

Thanks, but, wow, those are even more than the Leviton switches.
 

With the switches that rely upon the ApplicationUpdate ("I've changed") messages, the controller has to do a callback to get the actual status ("What are you set to").  These are still better than having to rely upon a pure Poll operation ... esp for the health of your Z-Wave Network @40kbits in larger networks

Could central placement of the controller alleviate that? Fewer hops to get from the reporting device to the controller would mean that fewer devices would have to carry the traffic.
 

In some cases, like the Leviton DZ series, that callback has to be delayed (by ~2-3 seconds) or the device indicates it's busy and the call fails.

So it depends upon how important this Instant Status feature is to you.  In my case, I use it to trigger other Scenes (via the Controller) but also via local Z-Wave Scene Controllers (it's handled between devices, and the Controller isn't involved) so speed is important, but others get away without it.

The main scenario I have is for lights that are controlled by rules. I have one that I dim by 1% every minute during a certain time period. If it doesn't report its state to the controller, then someone can change it at the switch, and then openHAB will override it in the next minute. Frustrating for users. It's mildly annoying to not know what state it's in when you try to control it via the various GUIs, too, but that's a secondary issue.
 

Good luck on your hunt, and the new house build-out, HA definitely isn't cheap!

Well, it's fairly cheap if I don't need dimmers that push status to the controller :) Maybe what I'll do is build with the cheap dimmers, poll them all at 5s intervals, and then see what happens. Maybe I don't end up saturating the network, and I won't need to worry. If I do end up needing something better than that, I can replace certain switches with the ones that cost 2x to 2.5x as much, but which will report their status changes.

[dan cunningham]

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Mark <mr.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:

In the US, the Cooper Industries switches also have the Instant Status/HAIL functionality.

With the switches that rely upon the ApplicationUpdate ("I've changed") messages, the controller has to do a callback to get the actual status ("What are you set to").  These are still better than having to rely upon a pure Poll operation ... esp for the health of your Z-Wave Network @40kbits in larger networks

In some cases, like the Leviton DZ series, that callback has to be delayed (by ~2-3 seconds) or the device indicates it's busy and the call fails.

Actually this is not the case anymore in openHAB, I implemented the missing command class to support busy messages. If we get a busy message from the switch we try again in like 2 seconds (can't remember exactly the time).  This is mostly for the dimmers, I think they send a  hail when they start to dim, but don't want to be queried until they have finished.  In any case, they work fine on my system.  I think I might lower the retry time as I put something conservative in to start with.  I wish the GE dimmers had supported this.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openhab/30a8e3d2-255e-49ef-b40c-c5556693de92%40googlegroups.com.

[Matt Watson]

Not sure what price you saw, but I'll tell you that you can get them for ~$50/switch (RF9501).  I have Cooper's and I love them.  They function well, and they look fantastic.  My only gripe is that the dimmers have an always-on blue led, where as the switches blue led is only on when its turned on.  The dimmers have an additional led thats lit to indicate its current brightness when on.  My OCD just hates the fact that I have a dimmer + 2 switches in a 3-gang configuration, it makes it look like the dimmer is always on from a distance.  I know... major first world problem there.

--

Matt

[Bob Igo]

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 12:13:05 PM UTC-5, Matt Watson wrote:

Not sure what price you saw, but I'll tell you that you can get them for ~$50/switch (RF9501).

I can't find "RF9501" on its own. There's an RF9501AW, a binary switch, for $56 (Amazon). The RF9501DS is a dimmer for $111 (Amazon). Do you have a source that sells the RF9501DS for $50?

[Mark]

Fair enough, I'm going by my experiences helping another user "simulate" the callBack in MiOS/Vera for the DZS15 Switches, and a more general comment on the Busy response.

That user also had different backoffs needed for the Leviton DZ Dimmer model, than the DZ Switch model (through experimentation).

Q: Is a default "wait" applied upon receipt of all ApplicationUpdate messages (eg. 2s) or are the Status enquiries fired off immediately and then re-fired (after wait) when/if the Busy is received?

Either way, not as efficient on the [slow] Z-Wave Network than just having switches with InstantStatus/HAIL... esp in larger Networks, and hops due to the flurry of traffic that's generated.  

It's a pity Lutron has this Patent really, it's messed up a ton of Automation.

[Matt Watson]

The RF9501 is an RF9501AW - the AW on the end just specifies the colour/finish of the switch.

Here are 2 links that have them for $50 right now:

http://www.zwaveproducts.com/Zwave-Lighting/Zwave-Wall-Switches/Aspire-RF-RF9501AW-Z-Wave-Wireless-15A-Switch-Alpine-White.html

http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/rf9501aw-15a-switch-rf-requires-neutral.html

The second one has the switch in black... but i'm thinking its just the image is wrong, because the AW stands for Alpine White.

As for dimmers, you probably actually want the RF9540-N.  The one you linked only supports LED bulbs, whereas the RF9540-N is cheaper & supports incadescent, flourescent, LED, CFL, MLV, ELV bulbs.  http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/wiring_devices/products/lighting_controls/aspire_rf_wireless/dimmers/ASPIRE-RF-All-Load-Smart-Dimmer-RF9540-N.solutions.wiringdevices!whole_home_solutions!aspire_rf_wireless.html

http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/rf9540-naw-dim-aspirerf-mstr600w-all-ld-reqneut-aw.html

[dan cunningham]

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Mark <mr.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fair enough, I'm going by my experiences helping another user "simulate" the callBack in MiOS/Vera for the DZS15 Switches, and a more general comment on the Busy response.

That user also had different backoffs needed for the Leviton DZ Dimmer model, than the DZ Switch model (through experimentation).

Q: Is a default "wait" applied upon receipt of all ApplicationUpdate messages (eg. 2s) or are the Status enquiries fired off immediately and then re-fired (after wait) when/if the Busy is received?

Yes the patent thing sucks, made it harder for us and made association enabled equipment more expensive.  To your question,  the delayed query is only if we receive a busy message with a "try again latter" payload.  So the sequence starting from the switch (-->) is 

"Update" --> , <--"Get Status", "Busy, try again latter" -->, (2 seconds) ,<--"Get Status". 

If we get another busy message, we would keep repeating.  With the Leviton switches I have only seen the busy message with a "try again later" payload.  The other options are "try again in x seconds" which I think I support, and "busy, don't try again" which we respect, but I have not seen used in my equipment. This was specifically to support the DZ dimmers and switches.  It does add a 2 to 3 second  delay to openHAB hearing about updates,  so I have those switches where immediate notification are not super critical (like outside lights).

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openhab/8d36e273-1af0-46a5-a536-7830065ff094%40googlegroups.com.

[Mark]

Yes the patent thing sucks, made it harder for us and made association enabled equipment more expensive.  To your question,  the delayed query is only if we receive a busy message with a "try again latter" payload.  So the sequence starting from the switch (-->) is 
"Update" --> , <--"Get Status", "Busy, try again latter" -->, (2 seconds) ,<--"Get Status". 
If we get another busy message, we would keep repeating.  With the Leviton switches I have only seen the busy message with a "try again later" payload.  The other options are "try again in x seconds" which I think I support, and "busy, don't try again" which we respect, but I have not seen used in my equipment. This was specifically to support the DZ dimmers and switches.  It does add a 2 to 3 second  delay to openHAB hearing about updates,  so I have those switches where immediate notification are not super critical (like outside lights).

Thanks Dan, that's what I was hoping it would do.

The downside, for people that have a lot of non-InstantStatus devices, is that they'll generate "x" times more traffic on the [slow] Z-Wave Network for each switch activation (well, for those that emit ApplicationUpdate)

My Leviton DZ Switches are similarly isolated.  One is for the outside light, for access to the Garbage bins, and the other is in the Kitchen Pantry.  Both are "hands-off", as they're activated by door openings and/or motion, so neither needs the Instant Status feature.

[Mark]

Could central placement of the controller alleviate that? Fewer hops to get from the reporting device to the controller would mean that fewer devices would have to carry the traffic.

Central is better than at the edge, due to limits in distance and hop-counts, but overall it depends on so many factors it's hard to [accurately] give a generic answer ;)

The typical way to scale-out in Z-Wave is to increase the number of [wired/routing] Z-Wave nodes in the Mesh, and ensure they're well distributed across the area you want communications...   and that's the theory but, in practice, I've seen it vary greatly across the users setting up their systems (one story, two story, wall materials, sources of RF interference, Metal JBox's etc, etc)

At one point, about 4yrs ago, I even had a tech from Sigma (Zensys) come to the house to look at it.  He spent a bunch of time using a [custom] Zniffer to observe what was going on.

Beyond simply adding more[routing] nodes I've seen people solve the Z-Wave scale-out problems a few alternative ways:

• Add localized Z-Wave controllers, for each "space" (eg. Upstairs vs Downstairs vs Detached Outbuilding etc)
  
• Add a larger antenna to the Z-Wave controller
  

But this was with another Z-Wave controller, and these hacks/options were available.  At some point Z/IP, and openHAB Z/IP support, will make the first [native] option easier.

In the past when I've used a Z-Stick, I've had range issues.  In theory the Z-Wave mesh should take care of all that, but in practice is wasn't working out [for me] for Node reachability.  I've since changed my Network to all-wired, no Wireless, with the exception of one Z-Wave Kwikset Lock.  This made it better, but the biggest stability improvement came by adding an external antenna to my Z-Wave Controller.

Unless you want to solder onto the internal trace antenna, this isn't an option for the Z-Stick.

At CES I asked the Aeon rep and it looks like their new Z-Stick, with Z-Wave Plus, will be around by about Summer.  It won't have an externalizable antenna, but the newer chips are supposed to be better setup for range.

I also chatted to the HomeSeer lads a little about their new Z-Wave Z-NET device, which also appears to be along the lines of Sigma's Z/IP stuff (although they were cagey on whether it was actually Z/IP or something proprietary).

[Greg]

I'm curious Mark, what wired technology did you switch to?

[Mark]

I'm curious Mark, what wired technology did you switch to?

Sorry, the "wired" part was a reference to how they were powered, not how they communicate.  It's a Mains-powered (routing) Z-Wave vs Battery-powered (non-routing) Z-Wave thing.

I was seeing responsiveness issues introduced into the wider network because the Controller appeared to get "hungup" trying to chat (and retry) with the Battery powered stuff. In most cases it was for a second or two, but it always seemed to occur at the most inopportune moments, and it was annoying when things weren't responsive.

In my case, it was a few Battery-powered Motion sensors (HSM-100 Gen1, and a HomePro ZIR-000) that I completely replaced with [wired & 433MHz wireless] Alarm System components that I integrated into that HA Controller... which itself provided a nice level of isolation (for 30+ sensors) from my Z-Wave network.

[Chris Jackson]

> At CES I asked the Aeon rep and it looks like their new Z-Stick, with Z-Wave Plus, will be around by about Summer. It won't have an externalizable antenna, but the newer chips are supposed to be better setup for range.

Just to note that there are quite a few ZWave-Plus sticks out there already (at least in Europe), although none that have the battery/include button that the Aeon has (but they hopefully also don’t have the problems that the Aeon have)…

Chris

[Bob Igo]

Wow, that's 55% of the Amazon price. I'm getting one of those to test :) Thanks!

[dan cunningham]

BTW, i usually wait until the price drops on amazon to around $60 to by the VR (viza rf +) switches on amazon,  home depot has the DZ for 49 for a switch, and 59 for the dimmer, most stores have them in stock if you need instant gratification.  

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