Re: [ocio-dev] icc profile for photoshop

[dbr/Ben]

That's correct! This guide should hopefully explain everything:

http://opencolorio.org/userguide/baking_luts.html#icc-profiles-photoshop

If you have access to a Linux machine, you could run ociobakelut on that, then copy the ICC profile to the Windows machine.

It's definitely possible to build on Windows, but building on Linux (or OS X) can be easier - it's been documented, and more widely tested

On 11/12/2012, at 10:20 PM, singha...@gmail.com wrote:

I am to compile ocio for windows. Before i do that certain questions crop in my mind.

correct me if i am wrong. Going thru the notes. I understand that to view images in a color space in photoshop I need to make icc profile.
and that too using ociobakelut.

iow, after compiling ocio for windows, one of the products ociobakelut will help create this icc profile from command line.

Is that it to it or is there something more. How exactly does this process go.

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[Andrew Britton]

There are one, or two, more steps that need to be performed in Photoshop so that you can see the .icc in action. Unfortunately these aren't documented on the link. 

I can write it up and email it if you're interested. 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

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[Jeremy Selan]

We would love it if you could write it up and post it to the list, thanks!

Extra credit if you update the OCIO docs code. (If you dont know how
to do this, you can at least submit an OCIO github issue from the web
interface, with the docs update contained in the message.)

Thanks!

-- Jeremy

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>
>

[Andrew Britton]

No worries! I just had to solve this icc/Photoshop issue at CBS to make sure current color pipeline works for our matte department.

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[Jordan Soles]

I don't even know if this is of any use at all (since my programming skills in Photoshop is very limited), but we wrote a little script that allows you to toggle between two ICC profiles by just using a shortcut key...I would be happy to send it out if anyone needs it.

As it stands, I built a crazy little pipeline where:

- we enter the 3D-Lut in shotgun

- a shotgun event automatically kicks off an ocio generation of the ICC profile (for the shot, seq, or show)

- when you open a PSD file, a script parses the filename and loads the correct ICC profile for that image

I am always in debt to OCIO as it has made our color pipeline so much easier to manage.

Jordan

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JORDAN SOLES
Chief Technology Officer | Producer
Office:     514 397 9999  x 400
Cell:       514 699 0414
Skype:    jordansoles

www.rodeofx.com

[Jeremy Selan]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Jordan Soles <jor...@rodeofx.com> wrote:

we wrote a little script that allows you to toggle between two ICC profiles by just using a shortcut key...I would be happy to send it out if anyone needs it.

+1... Let's see it. 

-- jeremy

[Jeremy Selan]

and if it's a lot of code, sometimes a github 'gist' is good for
sharing snippets like this:

https://gist.github.com/

[Andrew Britton]

+1 Indeed!

Share away

Sent from my iPhone

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[Andrew Britton]

@dbr,
Did you write in a post, here or on github, that you are working on updating the ICC usage in Photoshop documentation? I was going to write some of notes as well and update the OCIO documentation so it would be great to see what was going to be added.

[dbr/Ben]

As far as I was aware, the Photoshop ICC instructions were up-to-date.. then again it was written for the previous Photoshop version, and was written a while ago now. I'm curious to see what changes are required!

I'm working on other parts of the docs (see WIP pull request here: https://github.com/imageworks/OpenColorIO/pull/296 ), there should be no merge problems with your changes

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[Kevin Wheatley]

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 3:59 AM, <lrs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now's the time to make better ICC profiles ?!
>
> The current set of ICC profiles (I looked at the ones created for ACES
> 1.0.3) has some short-comings in current workflows and that we should
> consider addressing. Here's my list:
>
> - The PCS space is Lab. This is too small for current projects. Lab is
> smaller than Rec. 2020. Several corners of the 202 cube get clipped by Lab.


Whilst I'm don't think OCIO has perfect ICC support, I'm not sure
what you propose is even possible. Last time I read the ICC
specifications the only options for profile connection space are
L*a*b* and XYZ, neither of which have any limits which prevent you
using 2020 gamut - I certainly have profiles using ACES AP1 which is
wider than 2020. Could you describe what you are trying to do?

As a random guess are you perhaps relying on the inbuilt sRGB display
profile, when really you need a wider one?

Kevin

[Lars Borg]

Hi Kevin,

Well, I had planned to write a longer mail, but it got sent prematurely.

Here is a longer version:

Is there any interest in creating WCG/HDR-ready ICC profiles within OCIO?

The current set of ICC profiles from OCIO (I looked at the ones created

for ACES
1.0.3) has some short-comings in current workflows and that we should
consider addressing. Here's my list:

1. The profile’s PCS space is too small, just Lab.
The ICC specification states that compliant implementations (CMMs)
shall constrain (clip) conversions to the ICC Lab range. The ICC Lab range
is 0..100 for L, and -128..+128 for a and b. This space was sufficient for
printing.
It is not sufficient for say Rec. 2020. For Rec. 2020 the green corner
is outside ICC’s Lab range. This is easily shown in a ColorSync plot.
Other spaces that support colors (already in SDR mode) wider than ICC Lab
includes ACES, ACEScc,ACEScg, ARRI LogC, Sony S-Gamut,
Now it might not matter to you as today all your colors are inside the
P3 space and (SDR) P3 fits completely within ICC Lab range.
Another aspect that saves the day is that not all CMMs are ICC
compliant. Some CMMs support intermediate values outside the Lab range.
But now you’re relying heavily on deviations from the spec.


2. The profile is an SDR profile, not supporting any HDR content or HDR
displays.
Lab maxes out at ACES diffuse white (100). When applying RRT ODT to
ACES HDR shots, this (in a compliant CMM) clips the specular highlights.
Constrained XYZ gives us 2x headroom. Not much but should give us less
clipping.
However, we can use ICC profiles in non-constrained mode, extrapolating
into HDR space. Marti Maria (lcms) suggested this years ago, and we’ve
been doing this since 2006. All but 3D LUTs can be extrapolated. We’re now
routinely creating HDR profiles for HDR TV, log cinema spaces, etc.

Interested?

Lars Borg
Adobe

[Haarm-Pieter Duiker]

Count me as interested. It would be very helpful if the ICC generation capabilities of OCIO could handle HDR input ranges and wide color gamuts. 

HP

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[Sean Cooper]

Haha I don't think you could dangle such a tantalizing carrot in front of us and not expect us to bite ;)

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[Kevin Wheatley]

Lars, 

Ah,  now I feel a little silly for not recognising your email address!

I'm interested in improving the use of hdr/wcg/ACES* images in Adobe's products,  so I'll bite too. 

Or current (ab)use of the profiles really does not acknowledge colour management and it is  more a way of applying a lut,  without the need for an adjustment layer. 

Though not strictly OCIO related,  I'm  particularly interested in an integer representation for use with Photoshop,  having better profiles would help with that.

Kevin 

[Kevin Wheatley]

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Kevin Wheatley
<kevin.j....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or current (ab)use of the profiles

I really should avoid typing on small devices... "Our" in this context
refers to my day job and not OCIO .

Kevin

[Brendan Bolles]

On Jan 24, 2017, at 8:14 PM, 'Lars Borg' via OpenColorIO Developers wrote:

> Is there any interest in creating WCG/HDR-ready ICC profiles within OCIO?

Yes!!!

And aside from lacking the improvements you mention, I find the ICCs we're currently making to be pretty inadequate. If set up an ICC transformation and compare it to the original LUT, there are usually noticeable differences. It's in the ballpark, but often not good enough for production work.


Brendan

[Kevin Wheatley]

I'm intrigued by your comment of not good enough,  when I compare,  the differences are usually most visible as a slight lift in the blacks vs Nuke. 

We set up with P3 monitors and generate profiles using the displays' profile typically with a log input colour space with some wide primary set,  e. g.  ACEScc(t). 

What sort of differences do you see? 

Kevin 

[Brendan Bolles]

On Jan 27, 2017, at 12:47 AM, Kevin Wheatley wrote:

> I'm intrigued by your comment of not good enough, when I compare, the differences are usually most visible as a slight lift in the blacks vs Nuke.
>
> We set up with P3 monitors and generate profiles using the displays' profile typically with a log input colour space with some wide primary set, e. g. ACEScc(t).
>
> What sort of differences do you see?

I'd say lift in the blacks is the most common, usually shifting their colors some direction in the process. This is exacerbated by us making profiles intended to be applied to a log image, so you lose some bandwidth there.

The differences often don't seem too major, but I'm usually making them for Matte Painters who have a VERY good eye for even small shifts.

It's hard to tell how much of it is non-optimal profiles from OCIO vs. limitations in the CMS software vs. limitations in the ICC approach overall. Maybe Lars can help us get to the bottom of it.


Brendan

[Kevin Wheatley]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Brendan Bolles <bre...@fnordware.com> wrote:
> I'd say lift in the blacks is the most common, usually shifting their colors some direction in the process. This is exacerbated by us making profiles intended to be applied to a log image, so you lose some bandwidth there.
>
> The differences often don't seem too major, but I'm usually making them for Matte Painters who have a VERY good eye for even small shifts.
>
> It's hard to tell how much of it is non-optimal profiles from OCIO vs. limitations in the CMS software vs. limitations in the ICC approach overall. Maybe Lars can help us get to the bottom of it.

sounds similar to us then, do you explicitly assign a profile to the
displays in the OS or at least use the same profile from the display
when baking the ICC profile? This is the (ab)use I mentioned in our
usage - we use a perfect display profile for all our machines so we
only bake a single ICC for a given look using the same profile - it
essentially defeats the colour management engine somewhat but means it
"matches Nuke" (OCIO Display node).

Our monitors calibration is handled within the monitors.

Kevin

[Brendan Bolles]

On Jan 27, 2017, at 8:45 AM, Kevin Wheatley wrote:

> sounds similar to us then, do you explicitly assign a profile to the
> displays in the OS or at least use the same profile from the display
> when baking the ICC profile? This is the (ab)use I mentioned in our
> usage - we use a perfect display profile for all our machines so we
> only bake a single ICC for a given look using the same profile - it
> essentially defeats the colour management engine somewhat but means it
> "matches Nuke" (OCIO Display node).
>
> Our monitors calibration is handled within the monitors.

We always bake to sRGB and have the computers use that as their display profile. Nuke doesn't respect the actual display properties, so we don't want Photoshop to either.

In the past few years Photoshop has added the Color Lookup adjustment layer and artists are starting to turn off color management in Photoshop and use that instead, which matches Nuke exactly.

Would this be a good time to mention how nice it would be if Adobe would add OCIO as an option or let us set an explicit LUT for display? I guess their response would be to tell those smaller companies like Autodesk and the Foundry to adopt their ICC workflow.


Brendan

[Haarm-Pieter Duiker]

Lars is certainly the right person to receive that suggestion...

HP

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[Alexander Forsythe]

Jack Holm had identified a number of issues with the ICC profiles and was willing to help correct them.

Alex

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