Character motivations/philosophies

[Lulie Tanett]

Listening to the Fountainhead on audiobook for the second time, and have some questions.

Why does Dominique want to destroy stuff? Why does she care what others think of good things? Why does she like making Roark suffer? Is she just a bitch? 

Why does Roark like her? What does he see in her -- that she can recognise good? Why like someone who can recognise good, if she makes life hard and unpleasant for him?

What is Toohey's motivation/philosophy? He said at one point that Dominique is "worse -- a saint" (comparing to some bad thing). Why would he say she's a saint if he doesn't like what she does? Or does he not like saints? Why not? He seems to not like everyone who achieves, but I can't tell when he's being sarcastic/ironic/misleading to normal people -- because he seems to, to some degree, know what he's talking about.

-Lulie

[Rami Rustom]

On Dec 29, 2012 5:31 PM, "Lulie Tanett" <lul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Listening to the Fountainhead on audiobook for the second time, and have some questions.
>
>
> Why does Dominique want to destroy stuff?

Maybe Rand wanted to describe what sort of conflict that can be caused
within a person whose values are good and who is living in a world
whose values are bad -- and to describe the resulting
psycho-epistemological effects on that person.

> Why does she care what others think of good things?

Its a mistake. One that Roark didn't make. Maybe Rand wanted to
explain this mistake by illustrating the differences between a
character that does and a character that doesn't have that mistake.

> Why does she like making Roark suffer?

That doesn't make sense to me at all.

> Is she just a bitch?

Thats what I called her.

> Why does Roark like her?

Because he and she share some core values -- like autonomy and work ethic.

> What does he see in her -- that she can recognise good?

I'm confused. Rephrase question?

> Why like someone who can recognise good, if she makes life hard and unpleasant for him?

He knows she has this mistake. But he doesn't shun her for her mistake
because he realizes why she has that mistake. I wouldn't want anything
to do with her.

Interestingly, he believes that he can't help her fix that mistake (as
evidenced by the fact that he didn't try to persuade her that she's
mistaken). Why did Rand make Roark like this?

>
>
> What is Toohey's motivation/philosophy?

He wants to break everybody down by making them believe that they are
worthless and then build them back up his way (under his control). He
did that by defining value using the altruist doctrine.

> He said at one point that Dominique is "worse -- a saint" (comparing to some bad thing). Why would he say she's a saint if he doesn't like what she does? Or does he not like saints? Why not?

I don't remember that part.

> He seems to not like everyone who achieves,

He maligns achievers because doing that sends the signal that
achievers are (in the framework of the altruist doctrine) worthless
because they aren't helping other people.

> but I can't tell when he's being sarcastic/ironic/misleading to normal people -- because he seems to, to some degree, know what he's talking about.

He definitely knows what he's talking about. He has to to some degree.
He actively tries to make people feel bad. You can't do that without
knowing what could make people feel bad. He purposefully uses the
altruist doctrine for his own gain. Why? Because in a capitalistic
society, Toohey would be of little value. So by pushing an altruist
doctrine, his status is much higher than compared to his status in a
capitalist society. By capitalist society I mean one that is
sufficiently void of altruism.

-- Rami

[Elliot Temple]

On Dec 29, 2012, at 3:31 PM, Lulie Tanett <lul...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Listening to the Fountainhead on audiobook for the second time, and have
> some questions.
>
>
> Why does Dominique want to destroy stuff? Why does she care what others
> think of good things? Why does she like making Roark suffer? Is she just a
> bitch?

She likes testing Roark b/c she expects him to fail like everyone else. She wants to see good stand up to such tests, or find out the sad truth ASAP.

> Why does Roark like her? What does he see in her -- that she can recognise
> good? Why like someone who can recognise good, if she makes life hard and
> unpleasant for him?
>
>
> What is Toohey's motivation/philosophy?

Soul collecting.

> He said at one point that Dominique
> is "worse -- a saint" (comparing to some bad thing). Why would he say she's
> a saint if he doesn't like what she does? Or does he not like saints?

Toohey does not like saints -- he can't control them.

> Why
> not? He seems to not like everyone who achieves, but I can't tell when he's
> being sarcastic/ironic/misleading to normal people -- because he seems to,
> to some degree, know what he's talking about.

he's not productive and resents productive people.

-- Elliot Temple
http://beginningofinfinity.com/

[Elliot Temple]

On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:11 AM, Rami Rustom <rom...@gmail.com> wrote:

> By capitalist society I mean one that is sufficiently void of altruism.

That's not what "capitalist society" means. It's important, for clarity, to use words according to their meanings.

-- Elliot Temple
http://curi.us/

[Rami Rustom]

On Dec 31, 2012 7:10 PM, "Elliot Temple" <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:11 AM, Rami Rustom <rom...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > By capitalist society I mean one that is sufficiently void of altruism.
>
> That's not what "capitalist society" means. It's important, for clarity, to use words according to their meanings.

Ya I should have avoided the term "capitalist society" and instead
replaced it with "altruist society".

I guess I did that because capitalism is consistent with rational
selfishness and socialism is consistent with altruism.

In the limit, the pure capitalist society is one whose population
doesn't have any altruists and a pure socialist society is one whose
population is composed of only altruists.

Hmm, that second one seems wrong. A pure socialist society is
impossible. It requires people in charge who make others sacrifice for
their own gain, in which case those people in charge aren't altruists
(right?) -- even though they advocate the altruist doctrine.

So now I'm questioning the first one. Can the pure capitalist society
have altruists?

-- Rami

[Rami Rustom]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us> wrote:
>
> On Dec 29, 2012, at 3:31 PM, Lulie Tanett <lul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> He said at one point that Dominique
>> is "worse -- a saint" (comparing to some bad thing). Why would he say she's
>> a saint if he doesn't like what she does? Or does he not like saints?
>
> Toohey does not like saints -- he can't control them.

So Toohey is admitting that Dominique is good?

Does he also admit that Roark is good?

>> Why
>> not? He seems to not like everyone who achieves, but I can't tell when he's
>> being sarcastic/ironic/misleading to normal people -- because he seems to,
>> to some degree, know what he's talking about.
>
> he's not productive and resents productive people.

-- Rami Rustom
http://ramirustom.blogspot.com