Node.jar - Java port by Oracle

[Jonathan Buchanan]

I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get at multi-threading.

These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:

https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this stuff?

---
Jonny

[Isaac Schlueter]

Nope. This is the first I'm hearing about it.

The great thing about an MIT license is that they really don't have to
bug us about this if they don't feel like it :)

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[Bradley Meck]

As long as NPM works, since it uses Node's module loader apparently, I am sure some horrible but interesting bridges will be crossed on the NPM registry. Looking forward to it.

[Thomas Shinnick]

So, they've finally figured out how to do it...
  "Write once, run anywhere"   with Javascript

[Ben Noordhuis]

Very interesting, thanks for posting that. And no, we've not been consulted. :-)

[Jonathan Buchanan]

There's been an interesting thread I've been following throughout this (my first) JavaOne of "polyglot" - pretty much: "Java the language is way, waaay far from perfect: use whatever JVM language best suits the job/domain at hand." Obviously, there's been that "on the JVM" bent, but the message dynamic language guys have been selling is: "if you need middleware which already exists in a Java EE app server and there's a wrapper for <favourite dynamic language>, just *use* the <favourite dynamic language> wrapper." Other talks have gone further and pretty much said: "look: when you need to scale, just use whatever's best at the task at hand, doesn't matter what it's written in/runs on," at which many mental high-fives were given by myself and a a certain amount of confuzzled questions were asked.

The JRuby guys are way ahead on this front: Charles Nutter has had a bunch of great talks here, and from listening to the Oracle & JVM guys it sounds like he's been a key driver as an initial user of the JVM-specific details (invokeDynamic). He and Tom Enebo (another JRuby guy) had a packed talk where they did a great job of sellling dynamic languages in general and for build/testing tools in particular as an entry point. Given that Oracle have people working on a more efficient JavaScript implementation than what's standard in Java-land, and that they're working on a Node API implementation (a talk today about implementation details such as https://github.com/szegedi/dynalink was a programmer geeking-out-fest, as someone who's been stuck in webapps-land for too long), I guess this just is a bit of a heads-up.

(I should point out, FWIW, that I use (server-side) JavaScript and Python almost exclusively in my free time and Java/JVM/enterprisey stuff almost exclusively at work, so I'm currently a bit stoked (and drunk on free alcolhol, and overwhelmed by SF partially due to the former) about having attended days of talks which merge stuff I'm interested in personally and stuff I *have* to be interested in professionally)

Thanks,
Jonny.

[Rick Waldron]

So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark". 

-Rick

[Mark Hahn]

> the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. 

How did sun get it?

[Arunoda Susiripala]

I think they took it from Netscape.  May be Netscape sold it when they are winding up.

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Arunoda Susiripala

@arunoda

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[Thomas Shinnick]

JenkinsScript ?  (Oracle will like that I'm sure - they liked 'Jenkins' the last time too)

[Rick Waldron]

I'm not sure how it transferred, but when the dust settled (over 12 years ago) Sun owned the Java and JavaScript trademarks.

-Rick

[Karl Tiedt]

Oracle decided to try and fight Googles use of Davlik on Android...
and because it was a sudden change in the stance that Sun took on the
whole situation, the judge basically laughed it off. I would suspect
something similar would happen with JavaScript.

-Karl Tiedt

[Scott González]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Rick Waldron <waldro...@gmail.com> wrote:

So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark".

You can't really defend a trademark after not defending it for over a decade. Even with a registered trademark, you need to be able to show a history of brand protection, which is clearly not possible for JavaScript.

[Dan Bornstein]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Karl Tiedt <kti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oracle decided to try and fight Googles use of [Dalvik] on Android...

> and because it was a sudden change in the stance that Sun took on the
> whole situation, the judge basically laughed it off. I would suspect
> something similar would happen with JavaScript.

I hesitate to say this, lest I sound like an actual expert (and also
because it's very nearly off-topic), but I don't think what you say
here really captures how it all went down. If (any of) you want to dig
into details, Groklaw's <http://www.groklaw.net/> coverage of the case
is both extensive and (in my opinion) objective.

Cheers,

-dan

[Johnny Honestly]

I never liked the name Javascript anyway, b/c of the Java confusion and because the coffee fetish thing is, IMHO, below the awesomeness of the language.

Really tho, all I care is that they fork NPM so it doesn't get clogged with java modules.

[Mikeal Rogers]

I think the point would be that modules written in JavaScript run in Node.jar, and that these people would write JavaScript modules, which would mean they are still compatible with the same registry without needing to fork. 

[Patrick Mueller]

On 10/4/12 1:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:
> I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
> related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.
>
> What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
> APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar.

For folks interested in "node on Java", there's a project out there
called SprintStack which - as near as I can tell - also aims to provide
"node" on Java.

http://sprintstack.com/

I have no experience with it, just happened to notice it a while back.

[Stewart Mckinney]

I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?

If you are going to build out new services in Node.js, why not simply create auxiliary architecture to support it? Service layers don't need to be physically integrated, although I can see the argument from an

"gee this is gonna be easier to convince my IT department to do" perspective.

To me it just seems like an interesting exercise, not anything truly practical, although I don't mind being educated in the matter.

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[Stewart Mckinney]

*natively. Christ.

[Ben Noordhuis]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Stewart Mckinney <lord...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
> better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
> on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?

The major ones, yes. But there are some high margin, low volume
architectures like POWER and S/390 that V8 doesn't support (and hence
node.js) but the JVM does. Think AIX, mainframes, etc.

There has been some corporate interest in running node on such
architectures but the time and money to get (and keep) it ported isn't
worth it. node.jar could be a viable alternative.

[Rick Waldron]

This strikes me as the sort of shitty compatibility fragmentation that browsers suffer from. What happens when "node.jar" falls behind in supporting new features? Bug fixes?

-Rick

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[cole gillespie]

Isnt the goal of node to eventually be done with "new features" / "bugs" ? =)

[Isaac Schlueter]

This is just a natural part of being a popular programming platform.
It seems pretty similar to me to something like JRuby or Jython.

[shawn wilson]

On Oct 5, 2012 4:03 PM, "Johnny Honestly" <mostmo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I never liked the name Javascript anyway, b/c of the Java confusion and because the coffee fetish thing is, IMHO, below the awesomeness of the language.
>

LiveScript v.02 ftw

[shawn wilson]

It would also be interesting to have a full node stack on android... and I hear ARM is discontinuing their native Java support, but if I'm wrong, native node on something like a cheap NXP chip would be cool too. I doubt this just because I'm sure there are requirements in Java I skimmed over in the headlines, but just a thought / hope ;)

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