Question for all you electronic engineers out there.

[Nicholas Stock]

I'd like to be able to make some of my own PCB's using the toner transfer method. Can anyone recommend a good starting product/kit that they like? Any tips, tricks to help a newbie get started?

Thanks in advance...

Cheers,

Nick

[Spencer]

A lot of people like

http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/start_here/overview.html

or grab a laser printer ( I like the HP's), a glossy magazine ( I use Sports Illustrated) and a laminator, and have at it.

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From: Nicholas Stock <nick...@gmail.com>
To: "neoni...@googlegroups.com" <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:05 PM
Subject: [neonixie-l] Question for all you electronic engineers out there.

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[Smiffy]

When I was investigating this a while back, I spent some time here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

For the record, whilst I get most of my PCBs done at www.oshpark.com, for larger boards that would otherwise be too costly, or for simple boards I just need in a hurry, I use positive photoresist.

I use ammonium persulphate as an etchant; what ferric chloride doesn't attack, it stains; filthy, messy, stuff. Ammonium (or sodium) persulphate *much* nicer to work with (I use a bubble etch tank.)

 

[Grahame Marsh]

Well.... I'm a chemical engineer so should I be better with the process
& chemicals?

This is a link to my top dozen home made PCB tips

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/neonixie-l/jUUlqV-avvM/4JgBIFcBBtEJ

You can see my results on my electronics webpages

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/electronics.html

Good luck Grahame

[Nicholas Stock]

No offense intended Grahame! I'm an Organic Chemist, so I know a few things about chemicals too..;-) 

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check it out, just not familiar with the whole process and thought I'd ask 'those in the know'

Cheers,

Nick

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Grahame Marsh <graham...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Well.... I'm a chemical engineer so should I be better with the process & chemicals?

This is a link to my top dozen home made PCB tips

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/neonixie-l/jUUlqV-avvM/4JgBIFcBBtEJ

You can see my results on my electronics webpages

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/electronics.html

Good luck Grahame

On 20/03/2013 19:05, Nicholas Stock wrote:

I'd like to be able to make some of my own PCB's using the toner transfer method. Can anyone recommend a good starting product/kit that they like? Any tips, tricks to help a newbie get started?

Thanks in advance...

Cheers,

Nick

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[Grahame Marsh]

Hey, no offense taken, one of the nice things about this list is the broad range of interests and skills that exist - not just electronics

None of the chemicals are particulary hazardous, but I would echo the suggestion of NOT using FeCl3 - I had an accident once and SHMBO was, shall we say, unimpressed.  If you use FeCl3 then get some oxalic acid as well to clean up after...

:)

Grahame

On 20/03/2013 22:08, Nicholas Stock wrote:

No offense intended Grahame! I'm an Organic Chemist, so I know a few things about chemicals too..;-) 

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check it out, just not familiar with the whole process and thought I'd ask 'those in the know'

Cheers,

Nick

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Grahame Marsh <graham...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Well.... I'm a chemical engineer so should I be better with the process & chemicals?

This is a link to my top dozen home made PCB tips

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/neonixie-l/jUUlqV-avvM/4JgBIFcBBtEJ

You can see my results on my electronics webpages

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/electronics.html

Good luck Grahame

On 20/03/2013 19:05, Nicholas Stock wrote:

I'd like to be able to make some of my own PCB's using the toner transfer method. Can anyone recommend a good starting product/kit that they like? Any tips, tricks to help a newbie get started?

Thanks in advance...

Cheers,

Nick

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[Nick]

I've switched to Sodium Persulfate rather than FeCl for much the same reason - much cleaner and less toxic.

However, I have a Mega Electronics bubble tank and when I asked their technical support about its safety in a tank designed for FeCl, they said that the aeration would shorten the life of the etchant solution...

I'm NOT a chemist, so what's your verdict on that statement?

Cheers

Nick (t'other one)

[michael gregg]

I switched to sodium/potassium persulfate a while back myself. It was a good switch. Just make sure it's nice and warm. I typically heat mine to 110-120f before I start etching. The higher heat makes for cleaner traces, and a faster etch.

Michael-

[Grahame Marsh]

I've always used a mega bubble tank so I have no comparison to make.  I just change the bath when the etch times start to rise.  The made up solution is supposed to have a life of about 1 - 2 months and the crystals over a year.  But I wonder if that is for commercial manufacturing rather than hobbist?

Grahame

PS Nick, VFDs arrived all safe and sound, thanks, G

[GastonP]

Hey, great tip, that one!

[Smiffy]

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:10:44 PM UTC+10:30, mikegregg wrote:

I switched to sodium/potassium persulfate a while back myself. It was a good switch. Just make sure it's nice and warm. I typically heat mine to 110-120f before I start etching. The higher heat makes for cleaner traces, and a faster etch.

I have a Kinsten etching tank - heat and aeration are courtesy of aquarium parts. But, yes, persulphates need to be warm unless you want REAL slow etching!

One other note on persulphates - ammonium persulphate is very hygroscopic. I had a 2.5kg tub, which I found to be useless when I went to it the other week. Whilst the tub itself was polypropylene, the lid was made of some other plastic that had decided to crack in the Australian heat and let in the moisture. The result - a nasty slush that couldn't etch anything. I believe that the sodium/potassium salts don't have this problem, so would tend to favour them in future.

Final word on that - not only do the persulphates not attack/stain everything like ferric chloride, but you can actually SEE through them whilst the etch is going on - which I consider to be a big plus. 

[Sebastian Götte]

On 03/21/2013 08:16 PM, Smiffy wrote:
> One other note on persulphates - ammonium persulphate is very hygroscopic.
> I had a 2.5kg tub, which I found to be useless when I went to it the other
> week. Whilst the tub itself was polypropylene, the lid was made of some
> other plastic that had decided to crack in the Australian heat and let in
> the moisture. The result - a nasty slush that couldn't etch anything. I
> believe that the sodium/potassium salts don't have this problem, so would
> tend to favour them in future.

I tend to just let my sodium persulfate solution dry and crystallize
when I am not using it, you just re-add water and dissolve the crystals
by stirring and you can use it again.

[Smiffy]

On Friday, March 22, 2013 5:59:43 AM UTC+10:30, Sebastian Götte wrote:

I tend to just let my sodium persulfate solution dry and crystallize
when I am not using it, you just re-add water and dissolve the crystals
by stirring and you can use it again.

That's handy to know. I'll definitely be switching, once current stocks of the ammonium salt are used up. 

[Jonathan Peakall]

I've done a fair bit of toner transfer PCB action and when it works well
it's great. But I found it tough to make it come out consistantly and
small traces were tough. I started using pre-sensitized boards and
photo etching. More work but better results. Contact me off list if you
want my current practices, as not everyone here cares. jpeakall AT
madlabs DOT info

Jonatha

[NoCampersFluffy]

Nick

I switched to using toner on press-n-peel (pnp) rather than photo, magazine or other glossy papers.  I only make minor trace repairs with a permanent marker using pnp, compared to previous papers that I used.  I've used a couple of different laser printers and all work great.  I select 1,200dpi on the laser printer as well as making the toner a bit darker as I've found it gives better results. If you use an iron make sure to pay special attention to the sides and corners of boards that are bigger than a couple of centimeters.  It can take a long time for the toner to melt and bond properly.  Easily 5 minutes for larger boards which are not continuously heated under the heel of the iron. I've recently bought a small, cheap tee shirt press which gives even heat and pressure.  Pressing down hard with a hot iron, while trying to keep an even heat and pressure gets a bit tiresome after 5 minutes, while Ive found the swing arm tee-shirt press is easy to use.

Ive also switched to ammonium persulphate as an enchant as it is faster and I've stained too many of my cloths with ferric chloride. To etch, I use two containers one inside the other.  In the inner container I put the mixed "hot" etchant, while filling the outer container to a shallow depth with boiling water to keep the etchant hot. I don't use a bubble setup.  I just wear a pair of thick industrial gloves (for the chemicals and heat) and I use a small piece of cloth t gently wipe the etchant over the boards.  I've found this method works fast and caters well for irregular copper depth on boards.  I also find that I never over etch as I'm always handling the board.

 That was a good tip from Nichk and Mike regarding sodium/potassium persulfate, I'll be switching when my current stocks of ammonium persulphate run out.

[Nicholas Stock]

Thanks to everyone for the advice/suggestions...

Cheers,

Nick

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