nixie makers: getters

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello guys,

I've got an offer on getters, tech info attached.. the price is approx. 5pcs/1 eur. Is anyone interested in it? I will place an order in several weeks, I may send some pieces sealed in argon filled tube..

--
Dalibor Farny
http://dalibor.farny.cz

[AndrakondrA (Daniil)]

Dalibor Hi.

I'm definitely interested!!!

Daniil.

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi Dan!

how many pieces? I am thinking about one bag (500pcs).

btw: any progress in your setup?

Dalibor

2012/6/25 AndrakondrA (Daniil) <andra...@gmail.com>

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[AndrakondrA (Daniil)]

Hi Dalibor.

I can take 150-200.

About progress - not much, for now I have exam period in my Masters studies. 

Made a spot welder for the wires and grids. Still stuck with pump problem, found one for cheap but it gives ~10 (-1) torr -  not enough. :(

In two to three weeks I will have more time and will start to do push on it.

Dan

[Alek onet]

Dalibor,

could you show your getters? I need small getters. During trashing in
old ZWLE in march 2012 (polish manufacure of tubes) I taken ca. 300.000
stocks of barium getter but to big for me.

Alek

[kay486]

Hi there, good that you ware able to find something. I decided to look getters up on google and this is what ive found ( http://www.hdgetters.com/products/products-e.htm ) dont know if you know about it or not, or if its anyhow helpful. They dont seem to have any price indication there. Im not even sure how legit the company is, but the products looked interestong.

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi Alek,

these are 10mm in diameter and 3mm height. Could You provide a photo or sizes of your getters? I would be interested in buying some..

Thanks,

Dalibor

2012/6/25 Alek onet <aleksand...@poczta.onet.pl>

Dalibor,

could you show your getters? I need small getters.  During trashing in old ZWLE in march 2012 (polish manufacure of tubes) I taken ca. 300.000 stocks of barium getter but to big for me.

Alek

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[Dalibor Farný]

Hi, thanks, the problem with these companies is that they wants an order of minimum quantity 100.000 pcs and so.. This is quite problem ;-)

Dalibor

2012/6/25 kay486 <luck...@gmail.com>

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[Charles MacDonald]

On 12-06-25 07:03 PM, Dalibor Farn� wrote:
> Hi, thanks, the problem with these companies is that they wants an order
> of minimum quantity 100.000 pcs and so.. This is quite problem ;-)

Most of them are set up to do "Production Quantities" once they get an
order they set up and do the run. and then ship. They really only want
to deal with manufacturers as the product is variable enough that they
would not want to stock it. (ie one customer wants a 5 mm Nickel stem,
then next 6mm of some alloy.


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cm...@zeusprune.ca Just Beyond the Fringe
http://users.trytel.com/~cmacd/tubes.html
No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

[dylan roelofs]

Hey Dalibor and others-
   I don't feel that these are the right getters for nixie tubes.
   The literature lists them as thermally active- they only absorb if you put them somewhere hot.
   Many styles of getters are made this way; most tubes do run quite hot, beacuse of the filaments..

   There isn't anywhere in a nixie tube that is constantly 100C-200C. (That's part of the magic of nixies, of course)

   You really want some flashed barium getters; they absorb gasses at any temperature.

   -Dylan
   www.dylankehderoelofs.com

[John Rehwinkel]

> The literature lists them as thermally active- they only absorb if you put them somewhere hot.
> Many styles of getters are made this way; most tubes do run quite hot, beacuse of the filaments..
>
> There isn't anywhere in a nixie tube that is constantly 100C-200C. (That's part of the magic of nixies, of course)

Opinions vary - some folks think the effective temperature of the ionized plasma is quite high, but since its mass
and thermal conductivity is so low, it won't heat metal parts like getters very much.

> You really want some flashed barium getters; they absorb gasses at any temperature.

I don't remember seeing barium getters in nixies. I have seen a few styles of pellet getters, but I'm guessing
they're exotic types that work at room temperature and don't absorb neon or mercury.

- John

[Alek onet]

Hi,

I'm on conference now. I will be at home 28.06. Then I show you.


Alek.

W dniu 2012-06-26 00:58, Dalibor Farný pisze:

Hi Alek,

these are 10mm in diameter and 3mm height. Could You provide a photo or sizes of your getters? I would be interested in buying some..

Thanks,

Dalibor

2012/6/25 Alek onet <aleksand...@poczta.onet.pl>

Dalibor,

could you show your getters? I need small getters.  During trashing in old ZWLE in march 2012 (polish manufacure of tubes) I taken ca. 300.000 stocks of barium getter but to big for me.

Alek

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[Dalibor Farný]

Hi Dylan,

flashed getters are not used in nixies (I havent seen it at least), just some VFD tube use flashed getters. Flashed getters leave a coating on a glass envelope of the tube - we don't want that. I think that kind of getter needs only initial activation by heat which could be done by induction heating as well as in the case of flashed getters. Look to IN-14 nixie, there is exactly the same pellet.

The only matter to solve will be attaching the pellet to a wire, but I think that will be possible to do by spot welding - inspired by IN-14.

Thanks,

Dalibor

2012/6/26 dylan roelofs <dokto...@gmail.com>

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[Dieter Waechter]

> flashed getters are not used in nixies (I havent seen it at least),

No, no.
Many burroughs Nixie tubes have flashed getters.
See the B-5025 series for example. Some of these have flashed getters,
some have not.
Dieter

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi Dieter,

I don't see any flashed metal in B-5025, just some stripes of metal on the top. What I understand under term "flashing getter":

"Flash gettering means, chemically active, comparatively volatile metals-mostly metals of the alkaline earth group are evaporated by heating their supports at the conclusion of the pumping process. The metal vapor before and during condensation reacts instantaneously with all other than noble gaseous residues and forms on all cold parts of the tube, particularly on the tube walls, the so-called getter mirror."

Dalibor

2012/6/26 Dieter Waechter <in...@nocrotec.com>

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[Dieter Waechter]

You will find the flashed getters on the back of the tubes, but not on
all. Only SH4, SH5 do have these (The "SH" designation are my own
designations and stand for "shape", I need that for my tube matching
system) there are 7 known shapes of the B-5025 tubes.
Dieter

[jb-electronics]

Hi folks,

the only tube with a flashed getter I know of is the XN-1:
http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/data/XN1/XN1.htm

To be honest: I will not use getters at the moment. There is so much glasswork to figure out for me, that is the part that I will focus on in the next months. :-)

Jens

[Dalibor Farný]

Thats exactly what I mean, I will use flashed getter for testing - I will disassemble some old TV tube as Ron suggested. But I want to use right getter later..

Do You have any info about your progress on your site?

Dalibor

2012/6/26 jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de>

[Alek onet]

Flashes getters aren't good for nixie tubes because barium mirror exchange mercury vapours to another gases. That's why.


Best regards
Alek

W dniu 2012-06-26 09:51, Dalibor Farný pisze:

[Dieter Waechter]

Yes, right, but it works for tubes like B-5025 series, since they are
mercury-free and the getter mirror is on the back of the tube.
Dieter

Am 26.06.2012 12:42, schrieb Alek onet:
> Flashes getters aren't good for nixie tubes because barium mirror
> exchange mercury vapours to another gases. That's why.
>
>
> Best regards
> Alek
>

> W dniu 2012-06-26 09:51, Dalibor Farn� pisze:

>> Thats exactly what I mean, I will use flashed getter for testing - I
>> will disassemble some old TV tube as Ron suggested. But I want to use
>> right getter later..
>>
>> Do You have any info about your progress on your site?
>>
>> Dalibor
>>
>> 2012/6/26 jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de

>> <mailto:webm...@jb-electronics.de>>

>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> the only tube with a flashed getter I know of is the XN-1:
>> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/data/XN1/XN1.htm
>>
>> To be honest: I will not use getters at the moment. There is so
>> much glasswork to figure out for me, that is the part that I will
>> focus on in the next months. :-)
>>
>> Jens
>>
>>> Hi Dylan,
>>>
>>> flashed getters are not used in nixies (I havent seen it at
>>> least), just some VFD tube use flashed getters. Flashed getters
>>> leave a coating on a glass envelope of the tube - we don't want
>>> that. I think that kind of getter needs only initial activation
>>> by heat which could be done by induction heating as well as in
>>> the case of flashed getters. Look to IN-14 nixie, there is
>>> exactly the same pellet.
>>>
>>> The only matter to solve will be attaching the pellet to a wire,
>>> but I think that will be possible to do by spot welding -
>>> inspired by IN-14.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Dalibor
>>>
>>> 2012/6/26 dylan roelofs <dokto...@gmail.com

>>> <mailto:dokto...@gmail.com>>

>>>
>>> Hey Dalibor and others-
>>> I don't feel that these are the right getters for nixie tubes.
>>> The literature lists them as thermally active- they only
>>> absorb if you put them somewhere hot.
>>> Many styles of getters are made this way; most tubes do run
>>> quite hot, beacuse of the filaments..
>>>
>>> There isn't anywhere in a nixie tube that is constantly
>>> 100C-200C. (That's part of the magic of nixies, of course)
>>>
>>> You really want some flashed barium getters; they absorb
>>> gasses at any temperature.
>>>
>>> -Dylan

>>> www.dylankehderoelofs.com <http://www.dylankehderoelofs.com>

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, June 25, 2012 11:21:36 AM UTC-7, Dalibor wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello guys,
>>>
>>> I've got an offer on getters, tech info attached.. the
>>> price is approx. 5pcs/1 eur. Is anyone interested in it?
>>> I will place an order in several weeks, I may send some
>>> pieces sealed in argon filled tube..
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dalibor Farny
>>> http://dalibor.farny.cz
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dalibor Farny
>>> http://dalibor.farny.cz
>>>
>>>
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>>
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[Dalibor Farný]

Important info! Thanks for that!

Dalibor

2012/6/26 Alek onet <aleksand...@poczta.onet.pl>

[glasslinger]

Good reason for not using mercury in your tubes! Pick a low sputter cathode metal so it isn't necessary. Also, getters are not really necessary in tubes operating at nixie tube pressures. Just do a good bakeout and you will be fine.

ron

On Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:09:26 AM UTC-7, Dalibor wrote:

Important info! Thanks for that!

Dalibor

2012/6/26 Alek onet <aleksander_zawada@poczta.onet.pl>

2012/6/26 jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de>

2012/6/26 dylan roelofs <dokto...@gmail.com>

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[Dalibor Farný]

Mercury + stainless steel cathode are the best combination for the longest lifetime of the tube. Another possibility is to use molybdenum cathode, but it is not easy to obtain (0.1mm shim), I dont know how to etch it, it is quite brittle to work with and difficult to spotweld to lead-in-wires. I will fill mercury by mercury dispenser - metal compound, activated by heating, this procedure relieve the mercury.. Similar to flashing the getters,

Dalibor

2012/6/26 glasslinger <ron...@att.net>

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[jb-electronics]

Hi,

but where do you get the mercury dispenser? Do you have a source? I am just curious because I searched for it some months ago and did not find any.

But Ron is probably right: Many Nixie tubes neither have getters nor mercury in there, so the bakeout really is the crucial part.

Jens

Mercury + stainless steel cathode are the best combination for the longest lifetime of the tube. Another possibility is to use molybdenum cathode, but it is not easy to obtain (0.1mm shim), I dont know how to etch it, it is quite brittle to work with and difficult to spotweld to lead-in-wires. I will fill mercury by mercury dispenser - metal compound, activated by heating, this procedure relieve the mercury.. Similar to flashing the getters,

Dalibor

2012/6/26 glasslinger <ron...@att.net>

Good reason for not using mercury in your tubes! Pick a low sputter cathode metal so it isn't necessary. Also, getters are not really necessary in tubes operating at nixie tube pressures. Just do a good bakeout and you will be fine.

ron

On Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:09:26 AM UTC-7, Dalibor wrote:

Important info! Thanks for that!

Dalibor

2012/6/26 Alek onet <aleksand...@poczta.onet.pl>

2012/6/26 jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de>

2012/6/26 dylan roelofs <dokto...@gmail.com>

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[Nick]

On Tuesday, 26 June 2012 14:15:00 UTC+1, glasslinger wrote:

Good reason for not using mercury in your tubes! Pick a low sputter cathode metal so it isn't necessary. Also, getters are not really necessary in tubes operating at nixie tube pressures. Just do a good bakeout and you will be fine.

 

This is interesting - early nixies had a life (whatever that may mean) of only a low number of 1000s of hours - later tubes with Hg went up to 200,000 hours.

If you want long-life, anti-sputtering seems essential - special non-Hg tubes were made for aircraft and subs etc. (where Hg is absolutely not allowed), but otherwise pretty much every later tube has it.

The cathode technology was very well understood by then - why use any Hg if it wasn't necessary?

Nick

[Alek onet]

I have mercury dispenser, used in fluorescent lamp. I think that it's safety. I have also a lot of small Ti-Hg "drugs" for plasma displays, but I'm not able to use it. I don't know how to use it. I used liquid mercury, but I hate this method:/.
I can't to tell that Ron is right.
 If you want low voltage supply (below 180V) and long life for nixie, you should have the atmospere Ar, Ne and Hg.
I have old polish documets about AC and DC-PDP (plasma displays) and there is a lot of informations about good mixtures.

I haven't glass lathe so far, thats why I can't prepare so beautifull glass wafers as Ron:(

Best regards
Alek


W dniu 2012-06-26 15:23, jb-electronics pisze:

[jb-electronics]

Hi,

Do You have any info about your progress on your site?

I am currently training my glasswork "skills", which is really a lot of work, so this eats up all my spare time at the moment. I will have more time in the next months, so for me it will take some more time, sadly. Hence, there is nothing to report for my website as of now :-(

I have a plan, though, for a simple glow lamp with two cathodes that I will be able to build with my primitive tools and especially primitive burners. Let's see :-)

Jens

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi,

thats the same with me, I also rather works with glass than write on web ;-) I am making exactly what You wrote - simple glow lamps, filled by argon. I seal them and run them as long as possible. I make one with pressure just enough for the glow to cover all the cathode evenly, stainless steel electrodes spot welded to dumet. After 14 days of glowing (@250V) the dumet started to sputter (or it was sputtering all the time, after that time it was visible) and probably caught some impurities and lowered the pressure (worked as a getter), so the sputtering became faster. And yesterday some problem occured in my power supply and the voltage went to 400V, so today all the bulb is covered with sputtered material ;-)

I am still waiting for stainless steel foil from USA, when it arrives, I will start to etch nice (I hope so) electrodes.. Also going to prepare some alumina solution to cover the dumet to prevent from sputtering.

http://dalibor.farny.cz/sealed-argon-tube/

Dalibor

2012/6/26 jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de>

[Dalibor Farný]

I forgot, I bought small glassblowing torch, oxy-gas, it is huge difference compared to hardware torch. If You have some spare money, go for it.. You can set the flame to heat just a small area (5mm diameter) and so...

Dalibor

2012/6/26 jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de>

[jb-electronics]

Hi Dalibor,

yes, that is my number 2 item on the wish list, the first one is the needle valve.

What do you do for annealing? Have you built yourself an annealing oven?

Jens

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi, for what do You need needle valve? And how much does that costs? I use common glass high vacuum valves..

I am going to build an oven according to: http://www.teralab.co.uk/Glass_Blowing/Annealing_Oven/Annealing_Oven_Page1.htm

Now I use a box with vermiculite ($10), it works surprisingly well, if You are patient enough to wait until it really cools down, nice result may be obtained. But the real annealing is still better. Look here: http://www.randombytes.org/lamps_old.html

[jb-electronics]

Hi,

for easier maintenance and also due to my dissatisfactory glassworking skills I will use a standard vacuum flange system. There is a very good needle valve I used once in the university that I would love to have for my setup. It allows you to let in the gas very (!) smoothly so almost any pressure can be achieved given the vacuum system is not leaky. The bad part is that this valve costs 200 EUR, which is much for a student (if you have to pay rent and stuff...). But it is a one-time investment that will definetely pay off.

Interesting about the vermiculite, I did not know it was sufficient to just put the glass in there, I thought some kind of active tempering was still required.

Jens

[Dalibor Farný]

Making a glass vacuum system (filling manifold) is quite easy with glassblowing torch and blowhose. I tried several T-joints and when I was satisfied with function (look could be better) I started to make a glass system. I am not decided how to connect it to vacuum pump, I realised, that silicone hoses (I use) outgasses to much..

Vermiculite is curious material, it is very light, it has almost no thermal capacity, it is good thermal insulant, so the cooling is very slow. The heat from the annealed glass is enough.

[jb-electronics]

Hi Dailbor,

you mention a key point: I tried a setup with ordinary refrigeration tech hoses before (just like the ones on your website) and I also used transparent silicone hoses. The result was: It was not tight. There were leaks all over the place.

That is why I want to get rid of this problem by using modern flange systems. It is a bit expensive, but it is money I only have to spend once. It saves (me) a lot of time and grief, but of course, everybody has to find his or her own way. There are many ways of more or less successful Nixie tube making :-)

Jens

[Dalibor Farný]

I would be afraid that when You want to change anything on your metal flange system, You have to buy another parts, have to search for them etc.. On glass system You can change everything yourself, it is cheap. And once the connection in glass is made, You can be sure it is vacuum tight (it is visible - nice smooth connection), so You can focus on right places in case something is leaking.

I hope You will come up with some homemade nixies soon ;-)

Dalibor

2012/6/27 jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de>