After over a year

[Enrique Prieto]

 

After over a year of disorganized and contending posts I think it is worth resuming some ideas as a way of closing a stage of frequent interventions and thanking for any responses to them.

The reasons for the usually contending attitude are based on the criteria that:

There could be many alternative notations but there is room for only another mainstream fully-functional system to coexist with the traditional one.

Said system should occupy that position based on its own merits not on patents, titles of creators, support by influential companies or peoples, or availability of resources to propagate.

That an open and as much formal as possible debate defending everyone arguments is more useful than restraining opinions to maintain a friendly circle and it is necessary.

That our arguments could have an influence in correcting each other approach if possible, or help reaching a consensus (?*!->....)

Besides:

Reforming the traditional system could be considered a lost battle or worthless for a generation, as reforms within its context would actually be additions mixing with existing legacy and exciding anyone lifetime, there seems not to be a way of having consensus on the approach to do it as some proposals tend to keep diatonic compatibility while others incompatible chromatic one before a mostly indifferent world.

However I think it will be inevitable the acceptance of said mainstream alternative as long as it in addition to solving the notation known issues it provided new possibilities and be feasible its propagation through technology.

I apologize as I broke all previous links of my posts as the project has move to another stage, I left for now abstract in main page http://enjoy-technology.com/default.aspx and contact information as a way of communication.

Thanks again, Enrique Prieto.

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Hi, Enrique
I understand your point of view and here are my considerations regardint the subject

1. The pconventional piano keyboard is the main reason for the traditional staff and the same keyboard is a big pain so it has to be (and it is) changed (unfortunately I made a patent for such a keyboard design... in fact the keys are designed in simple 6-6 configuration)
- I know there are many 6-6 keyboards but they missed the main point: the simple design (the black-white conventional keys are old and uncomfortable IMHO)
- the staves are ruled by the black (small) keys as ♭ ♮ ♯  of the white (bigger) keys

2. The notes (at least in 12-TET) should have their 12 unique short syllable names such as: Do, Re, Mi... and so on
- alphabet names of letters are unappropriate because there are many alphabets
- those are the names i came up with: Do, Bu, Re, Na, Mi, Fa, Ge, So, Vu, Le, Ha, Ti (unique start letters aslo obviously)
- the intervals should also be 12 with unique names and consequently following one after another like the numbers do so
- the intervals should be: unison (zero), prima (first), secunda (second), terza (third), quart (fourth)... and so on till...

- obviously the "octave" coud not be called octave so I came up with the name: renova (latin for anew, again)
- no need to think in C-major first to make scales and count their degrees: x, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, :x, :1, :2... are simply enough

3. Chords and their inversions (interval inversions also) do not have to include short latin abbreviations like: aug, dim, maj, min, M,
- the simplicity of the name of the intervals to each of the tones above or below the root are allready mentioned above:

     4.7
D

inversion of the fourth (major third you might say) 12 - 4 = 8 goes to the left of the root D (Do):


8      7
  D

And so on simple and clear even what inversion you use and how to play it.

The notation also shoudl be simple. No triangles, no colors, no complex figures: simple dots in a seven lines staff with its middle line dashed like this:
____________O____________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________
____________O____________________________________________________

Why is that? Well count the positions between the two O notes and you'll find that they form an "octave" (renova) and if they step a step below they will be placed at the first and the last of the lines (simple orientation). The middle _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ is for the cleff. Simple and easy to read. Wider intervals could be written with additional short lines as traditional ones for its notes.

The most obvious and childish solution is the easiest one. ;)

[Mark]

My name is Mark Sandborn. I have been reading the exchanges of this
group for about a year without commenting. There have been many times
that I wanted to comment but refrained. There have been a number of
ideas presented or discussed which I pursued during some of my earlier
investigations into notation reform. Over the years I have learned a
great deal about notation, the history of notation, music,
instruments, theory, etc... As an entrepreneur I have learned much
about the business world, advertising, marketing, and people, which
are quite possibly the most relevant facets to true reform. All this
being said, I have a few thoughts to share.

>Music academia is locked in. It is not that they can't change because I have found chinks in the armor. But it is not easy.
>Music manufacturers only care about money. They don't really care about truth unless it makes them money. So if they can see the monetary benefit they will be on board.
>Private music teachers generally won't risk new ideas for fear of staining their reputation. They would rather stand up in support of a failing system because of historical precedence then to pursue ideas which actually achieve results.
>Ordinary people just want to play music! They could care less what method they take so long as they can learn to play and do so at a fairly rapid rate.
>Parents who know something about music or who previously took lessons will tend to stick with tradition for fear that their child will be ostracized or not be able to communicate with other musicians.
>Truth seekers, scientists, and inventors rarely achieve the success they deserve. Truth is often hijacked by individuals with power or money so as to become irrelevant.

According to industry data produced by NAMM (National Association of
Music Manufacturers) the dirty little secret of the music industry is
that approximately 50% of all individuals who begin music lessons will
quit within the first 6 months. This statistic appears to be
obviously validated by just doing a simple survey of adults and asking
them about their musical background. I hear the same comments from
adults time and time again - that they tried to take music lessons and
didn’t get very far. For those adults who took for a few years, I ask
what they were able to play. The answer is invariably, “not much”,
and that they could never read in keys with more than a few sharps or
flats. This data clearly states that music education, the music
industry, and the traditional language of music have failed. If this
rate of success or lack thereof were true of mathematics in our
education system, we as a country, would do everything in our power to
change the status quo. But even with this failure rate, all the types
of entities listed above still are weary of change.

I do understand the abundance of caution, even with the clear failure
rate. Change can be and historically has been expensive. The
printing press is probably the biggest culprit in locking in an
abstract music language and notation system. The cost of printing
books has tended to keep the power to innovate in the hands of only a
few players. But these historical hindrances are beginning to
disappear. Self-publishing and marketing are tangible in today’s
world. Sheet music will likely go all electronic within the next
decade just like printed books are changing over to e-books. The ipad
and tablet computer market will help bring that change about. This
change in sheet music delivery will place the power in the hands of
the individual and remove it from the big corporations. Hal Leonard,
Dover, Schirmer, and the other big publishing houses will not be able
to keep their lock on how sheet music is presented.

But what system will replace the traditional system? Rock Band is
making some serious dents into the system. It is quite possible that
none of you have ever considered that Rock Band is a type of
notation. Originally, it was not meant to be note for note
transcription of a score, but that is beginning to change. Just this
month Rock Band introduced a keyboard controller which has a
professional level where playing every note of a song is expected.
The fact that dynamics and expressions are not shown graphically is
irrelevant. Clearly, the individual can hear the nuance of the
recording and work towards imitating the performance. In many ways
the art of imitating a performance is where notation first began with
the monks back in the 9th-11th centuries with neumatic notation. By
using a recording of a song to gain insight into dynamics and
expression, future notation does not necessarily need such graphic
detail for the student to accurately replicate the song. What I like
about Rock Band is that it is leading kids and adults toward playing
real instruments. It makes them feel like they are being successful
musicians which is gratifying and provides a real degree of
entertainment. What Rock Band has successfully done, is to introduce
a music product in the marketplace that has nothing to do with the
traditional abstract alphabet language or 7 note staff grid. In fact,
Rock Band and Guitar Hero have been the first successful companies in
history to be successful in introducing proportional duration for
rhythm.

I mention these examples because they are success stories of modern
notation reform. Are they the end all be all? No. But what they
have done is opened the door. Created a point of departure, if you
will. There is no doubt that the traditional staff system needs to
ultimately be thrown out entirely and redesigned from scratch. But I
don’t believe that radical change is possible. I believe the system
must be changed from the inside out. Hybrid systems must be created
for an interim period so that all types of individuals can make a
progressive change toward a more perfect system.

There are many issues of notation and instrument reform which I would
like to discuss at present but I will limit myself to one at this
point. Language. No matter how the ultimate system is to be
designed, the most critical choice is the language of the notes.
Consider the mathematics of a few notes. For arguments sake lets
apply the following harmonic numbers. C=1, G=3, D=9, A=27, E=81,
etc... around the Circle of 5ths. Clearly, the alphabet names C and G
do not define the mathematical fact that these tones are closely
related, ie. that they have the closest possible aural relationship
(the 3:1 or 3:2 ratio). The idea that C and G as letter names define
closeness is absurd, abstract, and counterintuitive to logic. So what
if the numbers 1-12 applied to the chromatic octave were used? The
result would still be abstraction. If C were represented by the
number 1 then G would be the number 8. Or really harmonic 1 would
equal 1, and harmonic 3 would equal 8. When chromatic numbers are
viewed by the harmonic numbers they are attempting to describe, the
abstraction becomes apparent. What about solfege? Again, in no way
do the names Do and Sol define closeness.

My point in this argument is that it really doesn’t matter whether or
not a 6x6 grid is used instead of the traditional 7 note grid, if the
language identifiers are still abstract. The grid is just an
extension of the language. Clearly, the 7 note grid was an apt
extension of the choice for using 7 fundamental alphabet note names.
That part of the invention was logical. The choice of alphabet names
and sharps and flats was where the real mistake occurred.

So back to the names. What I suggest to all of you is that like it or
not, we are trying to name mathematical relationships, not art. There
is no way around this. As long as anyone thinks the choice of names
can be arbitrary, then the resulting system will always be abstract in
one way or another. The fact is, that the mind calculates all the
frequency numbers of the tones that it hears. Most musicians have no
idea what numbers they are playing, and certainly they are not aware
that their mind is making calculations.

It is a universal fact that the 1:3 or 2:3 ratio defines closeness.
This is not just true in music. Since everything can be assigned a
number, anything that defines closeness, must have a 2:3 ratio. This
could apply to any of our senses or to the relationship of branches on
a tree. The only way we can perceive relationships between anything
is because the mathematical meaning of numbers and ratios will always
be consistent no matter where or to what they are applied. If this
were not so, life could not exist.

Therefore, if names which are not closely related are applied to the
tones of a 1:3 ratio, a destructive interference pattern of numbers
will emerge within the mind, thus causing distress of one type or
another. The mind is always seeking out numerical stability. The
language of music must not thwart this.

To my knowledge, there is only one set of language identifiers which
can definitively correlate to the meaning of the harmonic numbers of
musical pitches when it is properly applied, and that is color. Not
just any color, but a true 12 color, equal division, pure hue, equal
intensity color circle which employs the scientific names of color
perception. When analogous colors from this color circle are applied
to the Circle of 5ths, then all color properties precisely define each
and every musical interval.

For example, analogous colors are colors which are consecutive in the
spectrum and define closeness. (Red and Red-Orange) or (Red and Red-
Violet) would be examples of analogous color pairs. The fact that the
name Red occurs in all three colors aids in defining closeness as a
language identifier. If F=Red-Violet, C=Red, and G=Red-Orange, then
the close relationship of the 5th is defined by the names of the
colors. Or if 1=Red-Violet, 3=Red, and 9=Red-Orange, then the names
of analogous colors are defining the mathematical ratio of 3:1 or 9:3
which are both 3:1 ratios. Clearly the names of the colors and the
visual of the colors both describe the sensation of closeness being
heard aurally, and define the ratio being calculated by the mind. All
3 are in sync.

Each and every type of color effect such as color complements, primary
color relationships, grey scale, etc... can be shown to precisely
define every aural interval, and the mathematical ratios which create
them. The foray into this topic is far too extensive to be elaborated
upon in this particular response, but I would be more than happy to
discuss it further at another time.

When this particular color set is placed upon traditional notation,
the transformation is instantaneous. The inherent abstractions built
into the grid are still there, but the color makes them virtually
unnoticeable and therefore virtually irrelevant. By including octave
numbers on the side of the grand staff, anyone can immediately read
any note and locate the corresponding note on an instrument such as a
traditional keyboard. Because the color names and the corresponding
visual of the color have inherent meaning which is hard wired in the
mind, relationships of music can be understood immediately.

This evidence simply validates the power of language and the need to
get it right. It demonstrates that when all aspects of language are
in unison, the learning curve is dramatically accelerated. Regardless
of the ultimate importance of changing the grid, color provides a
quintessential first step towards reform. Because we are now moving
into the electronic age of sheet music, color can be applied at
virtually no extra cost. Notation programs such as Finale and Logic
already contain full Spectrum Color capabilities. And since the same
traditional staff can be used with color, there is far less
apprehension towards acceptance within the academic community and the
marketplace.

For more information on this topic visit www.virtuosoism.com. I will
be glad to answer any and every question that is posed to me.

Mark Sandborn

> move to another stage, I left for now abstract in main pagehttp://enjoy-technology.com/default.aspxand contact information as a way of

[jason....@gmail.com]

Mark,

Using numbers 1-12 to label the notes is ideal because you can determine intervals just by comparing note numbers. For example the +7 interval is always the perfect fifth. No it is not a ratio but it tells you the interval and that is what is needed to apply the theory. Defining the exact ratios are overly specific and superfluous.

Numbered notes replaces letter names with numbers 1-12 AND uses numbers for timing in a clean and precise way that is unique.

I also believe that NN is the idea that will change the world. We already have people around the world downloading the IPhone App and soon to be ordering Christmas E-books for Beginner and Intermediate Piano and Guitar. I have also converted Chopin and other complex songs as well as a symphony piece so it's credibility is now established. My "just numbers" music is for beginners and can be played by any novice without instruction. From there timing and other aspects are added.

In my opinion many people who invent alternative notations just end up exchanging one bad idea for another without truly improving the system. Wacky note heads, abstract lettering schemes and convoluted staff designs all populate the inventory of ideas. I will also add some very brilliant ideas too and we all learn from each other. I've been the one of the "numbers guys" and humbly add my solution to mix. The only difference is that my idea offers more benefits of function and is way easier to learn than other systems that require interpretations of new and abstract symbols.

Color is great in a way but it is not as good for indexing as a number symbol. Also some people have a hard time distinguishing between red-orange and red, where people do not have a problem distinguishing between 3 and 4. Also, at the end of the day knowing the distances between notes is helpful.

Please have a look at Numbered Notes and let me know if you agree or disagree with my conclusions.

Trust me, we will change music notation but it is going to be a battle...the idea that prevails will have to be created with the precision and quality of a Samurai sword!

www.numberednotes.com

Respectfully, Jason

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[jason....@gmail.com]

Ok, I had to laugh because after sending out that email about the Samurai sword I noticed I misspelled intermediate on my add.

Fixing soon:-)

Jason
www.numberednotes.com

On Dec 16, 2010, at 12:23 AM, Mark <virtu...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Hi, Mark Sandborn

I wrote very carefully what you wrote above and I have a big question about colors: what about the blind people there like Stevie Wonder?
How could they recognize the notes... by color? I think that is not so appropriate for them. And not every two people see the colors exactly the same. Yes there are 6 basic colors: white, black, blue, red, green, yellow... well maybe orange... so 7 the others require exactnes in printing, visualising on screen or so on to be properly shown to the player and that is  very subjective so agin we have 5 tones with mixed colors thus hardly recognizable not to mention again the blind people or those with visual disabilities.

Yes, I think numbers are good symbols but only for intervals and musical steps not note names. Note names shold be names as they are and not following whatever alphabet letter ordering is out there 'cause alphabets are different, greek, latin, japanese (?!), chinese (?!), cyrillic (the alphabet I use to be honest), gorgian, arabic, persian languages and so on.

Note names are needed to be short syllables with unique first consonantal letter followed by a vowel (consonants are more than 12 but vowels are hardly more than 6 without the unuseful and subjective vowel combinations like Æ,Œ and so on).
What are the advantages of 12 unique note names? Clarity, exactness, recognizable symbols. Ok, latin letters are fine though I could get further and invent unique note name symbols simmilar to letters. That's a whole new conception and is to early for it. Names are enough as i wrote above and in my prevous post.

Why numbering the notes as: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, (13 - erm... "octave"?!) is a little bit confusing IMHO?
Well you all know that intervals are 12, notes in 12-TET are 12 and most importnat: music is a form of rhythmic note interval interchange, consequence or combination in time called melody and harmony (counterpoint).
If we use number 1 as a base and the first interval to the next note is directed to the second note there is a confusion. First interval could not be unison after all 'cause unison is giving us a zero interval, isn't it?! So a zero interval is better to be the zero note, the X note, the base note that is changing form interval to interval, mode to mode, tonality and so on. Thus the first interval to the next note is giving us: X, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 - all 12 notes in 12-TET. Simple and clear.
The next "octave" (renova) cycle simply strats as: :1, :2, :3, :4... and so on and this correspondance between the renovas is obvious.

And another big, really big concerning here are... the inversions! Yes, they should also be recognizable and not confusing. I wrote a simple example in my previous post and the formula for the inversion: 12 notes, the inversion of 7 is 5 because 12 - 7 = 5. Simple and clear. If a sequence of 1,2, 3, 4... 12 is used the inversion should be calculated as: 13 - 5 = 8 for example and 1 is the base and 13 - 12 = 1 is giving us a tone but an interval of unison is 0 not 1 interval i would say.

:)

Best regards,
Ivaylo

[Mark]

Greetings, Ivaylo

I am pretty sure that Stevie Wonder and other blind individuals are
familiar with color names. For a blind person, knowing that the color
Red is close to Red-Orange because the name makes it so, is actually
quite obvious and easy. The fact that these logical names describe
what they are hearing makes it even more relevant. Numbers and other
abstract names do not achieve this result.

If you read the artciles on color at www.virtuosoism.com on the 'learn
more' section I think you will find answers to your questions about
the color names. You say that people do not see colors exactly the
same. That is only partially true. We see the same color, but
because common names for color are used more frequently than
scientific color names, then differences may emerge. But if the
scientific color names are used, this is not a problem, and everyone
sees the same color. In music when a note is struck, we all hear the
same note, but if individuals are asked to sing the note back, there
is a wide range of variaton around the central frequency of the note.
We still call the note by its exact name for the sake of reference.
Also, color blind individuals have learned to read music in color.

Excactness in printing would be important if printing was important.
This is why I stated that the music world is moving towards electronic
sheet music. In the electronic medium, color is pretty much exact.
In my 15 years of experience using color with notation, I have never
had anyone not be able to easily distinguish one color from the next.
From the very first moment of exposure they can identify each of the
12 colors.

Color is a universal language. The scientific names of color in
English have correlative counterparts in other languages so they are
transferrable.

You are making an assumption that names of notes need to be short
syllables. Secondarily, the abbreviation of color names are just as
relevant as the fully spelled out name. Y=Yellow, YO= Yellow-Orange.

When analyzing a score, color makes the harmony immediately apparent.
An individual can take a quick glance and know what chord is being
employed.

Color can be used as a compositional tool. Yellow and Blue make
Green. This means that a complex of Yellow and Blue can be used as a
subsitution for a Green note. In no way will using numbers or other
names ever give you that answer. The point is that color can be
absolutely correlated to sound so that all of the tools available for
the visual artist are now available for the musician. That is a
powerful new tool for composition. It allows for new ways to approach
composistion which have never even been conceived.

I think this group should have a test. Lets set up a group of new
students who have never played before. Lets get them to practice for
the same amount of time each week and have 1 lesson per week for a
period of six months. Lets test each type of method with each group
having 10 students of different ages, races, genders, and intelligence
levels. We will find the most experienced teacher to teach each
particular method. Then we can measure the advancement through a set
of previously arranged criteria and see which method comes out on
top. If the results of such a test do not sway the minds of the
members of this group towards a final conclusion, then it is doubtful
that any of the ideas presented in this forum will ever become
relevant.

What I do know is that average students who learn music in Spectrum
Color, will learn to play at advanced levels within 18-24 months.
Advanced levels, including repertoire such as Beethoven's Waldstein
piano sonata or Chopin's Nocturne No. 2. This is unprecedented.
Students with learning disabilities such as, dyslexia, ADD, and
discalculia, can learn at faster rates using Spectrum Color then above
average students taking any other traditional method. Students as
young as 3 years old can easily learn to play real music using
Spectrum Color.

On Dec 16, 5:36 am, Ivaylo Naydenov <adxok....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, Mark Sandborn
>
> I wrote very carefully what you wrote above and I have a big question about
> colors: what about the blind people there like Stevie Wonder?
> How could they recognize the notes... by color? I think that is not so
> appropriate for them. And not every two people see the colors exactly the
> same. Yes there are 6 basic colors: white, black, blue, red, green,
> yellow... well maybe orange... so 7 the others require exactnes in printing,
> visualising on screen or so on to be properly shown to the player and that
> is  very subjective so agin we have 5 tones with mixed colors thus hardly
> recognizable not to mention again the blind people or those with visual
> disabilities.
>
> Yes, I think numbers are good symbols but only for intervals and musical
> steps not note names. Note names shold be names as they are and not
> following whatever alphabet letter ordering is out there 'cause alphabets

> are different, greek, latin, japanese *(?!)*, chinese *(?!)*, cyrillic *(the
> alphabet I use to be honest), *gorgian, arabic, persian languages and so on.

>
> Note names are needed to be short syllables with unique first consonantal
> letter followed by a vowel (consonants are more than 12 but vowels are
> hardly more than 6 without the unuseful and subjective vowel combinations
> like Æ,Œ and so on).
> What are the advantages of 12 unique note names? Clarity, exactness,
> recognizable symbols. Ok, latin letters are fine though I could get further
> and invent unique note name symbols simmilar to letters. That's a whole new
> conception and is to early for it. Names are enough as i wrote above and in
> my prevous post.
>
> Why numbering the notes as: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, (13 -
> erm... "octave"?!) is a little bit confusing IMHO?
> Well you all know that intervals are 12, notes in 12-TET are 12 and most
> importnat: music is a form of rhythmic note interval interchange,

> consequence or combination in time called melody and harmony *(counterpoint)
> *.

> If we use number 1 as a base and the first interval to the next note is
> directed to the second note there is a confusion. First interval could not
> be unison after all 'cause unison is giving us a zero interval, isn't it?!
> So a zero interval is better to be the zero note, the X note, the base note
> that is changing form interval to interval, mode to mode, tonality and so
> on. Thus the first interval to the next note is giving us: X, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
> 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 - all 12 notes in 12-TET. Simple and clear.

> The next "octave" *(renova)* cycle simply strats as: :1, :2, :3, :4... and

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Yes, Mark. I know about the colors and their arguable relation to musical notes:
http://www.lunarplanner.com/Harmonics/planetary-harmonics.html

Considently or not my favourite tone is Re and guess what my favourite colour is blue. So that chart from the link is true in some funny and interesting way for me. Color names are not appropriate for note names. Well maybe Red is close to Re, Blue is close to my Bu tone (old C#\Db) but that's uncomfortable way of matching things and words on purpouse.

My point is that color requires at least 12 unique and distinctive colors. Ok dark\light shifts also could work like on the diagrams form the link I give above and that is OK. There is no difference even if we make pictures of animals to represent each tone and call it Musical Zodiac or something. Same applies to flowers, fruits, and so on. When I play for example the so called F# (Ge in my system... pronounced more like Ghe not Je) I imagine a deep sunset vanilla sky. D (Re) reminds me of deep laguna golf waters in a bright day and so on but that is irrelevant to other person of course.
At least geometric shapes, symboks and letters are also form of a visual orientation out of question. And we are used to it to bring us some kind of information behind the symbol, shape and so on. That is why the Alphabet letter ordering is dominating the musical notation systems and that is irrelevant to people from different language groups, different alphabets or slightly different order of the first 7 or 12 letters in their alphabet.
Numbers are the symbols for ordering things, cycles of any kind... and repeating itself infinity I would say. Like the repeating differentiatet notes in a given system like 12-TET for example where there is base tone for a given interval, base tone for a scale, tonality center and so on... like with numbers you have 0 for base (like unison sound is zero interval). You could not achieve this kind of critical info about the tonal structure with colors. Ordering colors is irrelevant 'cause there is no base color or start color to count an interval from it. And what about chords, their inversions also, scales and arppregios of more than three or four notes?

My way of thinking is that the simpliest way is the most right way of doing things. The simpliest and the most clearer and recognizable uniqeness in synonymity of all parts in a system should be the right way.

[John Keller]

Hi Mark,

I downloaded your MUS file with the coloured noteheads. The first thing I
noticed was a wrong note in measure 10 of the first piece, the very
virtuosic prelude 24 of Chopin. The trill should be on a B natural.

This is seriously wierd stuff. I doubt that you can play any of the pieces
yourself, from your notation! No offence, but prove me wrong with a YouTube
video!

John K
(ExpressStaveNotation on YouTube)

Greetings, Ivaylo

> like �,� and so on).

--

[Michael Johnston]

> I downloaded your MUS file with the coloured noteheads.

28 megabytes! Wow, that's an impediment right off.

My Finale 9 told me that this could not be opened with my version and
that I needed version 15 something or other to read it. Wow, twice the
impediments. I suppose I could download the reader version which would
work, but for the widest audience, one should try not to exclude by
using a recent version. I still offer PDFs compatible back to version 7
-- they're a little bigger, but everyone can open them.

US6930235B2 This is not a registered patent according to
http://www.uspto.gov/patents/index.jsp. Google patents has never heard
of it either. Neither patent search turned up anything for Vituoso Music
or Mark Sandborn.

The notice, "no part of this publication may be reproduced or
distributed in any form or by any means, or stored in a database or
retrieval system, without prior written permission from Mark Sandborn,"
means that we will not be able to use any of your material on
musicnotation.org unless we get from you a written statement (not email
per the notice) granting permission. All of this is further impediment
that no one will give serious attention to your work.

If someone makes a video for the system, I'd be interested in seeing it
under stage or club lighting. For me, certain colors, even under my
office lighting, were all but completely washed out.

Cheers!
Michael
--
MICHAEL'S MUSIC SERVICE 4146 Sheridan Dr, Charlotte, NC 28205
704-567-1066 ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **
http://michaelsmusicservice.com "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

[Ken Rushton]

I'd also like to see links to what you consider serious psychoacoustic papers on the subject of color/sound synthesia that support your ideas. I'm slightly read on the subject, and there is not a huge body of agreement as I recall.

Where is the experimental evidence to support the websites claims?

Sorry to be picky. Ken.

[Mark]

Clearly you misunderstood the correlation of color to sound which I
presented. The link you provided is nothing but metaphysical mumbo
jumbo and has no basis in fact. The site to which you refer is
applying spectrum color to the chromatic octave which is an
impossibility. Color which comes from a duel wave system of the
electromagnetic wave cannot be correlated to the single wave
perspective of the chromatic octave. This has been a constant error
since color to sound hypotheses were first proposed by Newton. Music
as a structure is composed of dual wave system of overtones and
undertones which in sound, mirror the duality of the electromagnetic
wave. The overtone/undertone structure is exhibited in musical key
which corresponds to the circle of 5ths. Color cannot be correlated
to sound in any way other than by the Circle of 5ths.

Your arguments concerning names, and that it doesn't matter how we
name a note are simply invalid. Music is unique in that numbers and
number relationships are what are being named. When one looks at a
tree, numbers are not the most pressing sensation evoked by the tree.
But in sound, frequency numbers are the first and primary sensation
observed. This is why language names which conflict numerically with
what is being perceived aurally, act destructively in the mind. When
language names are used which have a strong numerical quality, and
which differ from the frequencies and frequency relationships to which
they are being applied, the mind cannot help but calculate both sets
of numbers. If the number sets do not have congruence, the mind is
left questiong the logic of what it is perceiving.

You are wrong in saying there is no base color. Is there a base
musical tone? Isn't it rather arbritrary that 440hz is used as a
reference tuning pitch? Why not use 1hz as a reference pitch? Or why
not used 432hz which would make much more sense mathematically? The
point is that whatever color is chosen to be the reference color is
perfectly legitimate because once a reference color is chosen, the
system is organized around it. It is just the same in sound. We
choose 440hz as a reference and tune everything accordingly.

I fail to understand what your question is concerning chords,
arpeggios and scales. If you are asking how they are to be named then
the answer is exactly as they are now. If the tones C-E-G-B are
played, then the chord is referenced to the root position regardless
of the inversion. This would be true of color as well. Consider that
when one looks at a mountain in the distance, they tend to see the
entire mountain as blue or violet or some color in that range.
Clearly, as one approches the mountain, other colors begin to emerge,
yet somehow the collective could be represented by one color at a
certain distance. The same is true of chords. Every note has meaning
in its own right as a distinct frequency but groups of notes will also
have a collective meaning. Both views are valid. Color can be used
to define a specific frequency or a group of frequencies just like it
is in painting.

You really can't get any more simple then using color. I can
communicate with anyone using color. Color means the same thing in
every language. A small child can play in a color based system
without the need for any explanation of the terms. They understand
note relationships because color relationships are hard-wired in the
brain due to the fact that our mind is an electromagnetic organism.

When individuals learn to read music in true Spectrum Color there is
0% failure. Everyone succeeds.

[Michael Johnston]

> I'd also like to see links to what you consider serious psychoacoustic
> papers on the subject of color/sound synthesia that support your ideas.

http://www.amazon.com/Musicophilia-Tales-Music-Revised-Expanded/dp/1400033535/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292593357&sr=1-9

I enjoyed this book very much. It made me realize how others perceive
color and music and helped me to understand what I do not normally
(without effort) notice.

I have planned to read ...
http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Sense-Synesthesia-Science-Leonardo/dp/0262514079/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292593357&sr=1-1

but have not gotten to it yet.

[Mark]

Clearly mistakes are a part of life just as you spelled the word weird
wrong. I appreciate you pointing out the Chopin mistake. Every year
I find a few mistakes which get corrected. Of course, I find mistakes
throughout books published by major publishing houses as well.

However, I really don't appreciate your remarks about me personally.
If those are the types of remarks made on this forum, than progress
towards reform will be limited. The proof of Spectrum Color based
learning and the Virtuoso methodology is exhibited in everyone who is
educated by it.

I had a student who had taken music lessons for 9 years from 6
differenct teachers. He was 16 years old when he came to me. He had
multiple learning disabilities as well as psychological disorders. He
had given up on ever being able to read and play music. He could play
very little after 9 years of practice. In the 4 months prior to
coming to me, he had been attempting to learn Fur Elise, without
success. Let me be clear that he was only practicing Fur Elise over
that 4 month span and could not learn the song. He studied with me
for two years using the Virtuoso system. After those two years of
training with me he was able to enter into the University of North
Carolina School of the Arts music conservatory which is one of the
most prestigious conservatories in the country. That is the
validation of Spectrum Color based learning. It is transformative.
People do not fail. And yes, my students, and anyone who learns
within the Virtuoso system will play the repertoire which is included
on it.

On Dec 16, 2:27 pm, "John Keller" <jko...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> I downloaded your MUS file with the coloured noteheads. The first thing I
> noticed was a wrong note in measure 10 of the first piece, the very
> virtuosic prelude 24 of Chopin. The trill should be on a B natural.
>
> This is seriously wierd stuff. I doubt that you can play any of the pieces
> yourself, from your notation! No offence, but prove me wrong with a YouTube
> video!
>
> John K
> (ExpressStaveNotation on YouTube)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark" <virtuoso...@gmail.com>
> To: "The Music Notation Project | Forum" <musicn...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 4:39 AM
> Subject: [MNP] Re: After over a year
>
> Greetings, Ivaylo
>
> I am pretty sure that Stevie Wonder and other blind individuals are
> familiar with color names.  For a blind person, knowing that the color
> Red is close to Red-Orange because the name makes it so, is actually
> quite obvious and easy.  The fact that these logical names describe
> what they are hearing makes it even more relevant.  Numbers and other
> abstract names do not achieve this result.
>

> If you read the artciles on color atwww.virtuosoism.comon the 'learn

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/musicnotation?hl=en- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Mark]

The last time I downloaded Cakewalk Sonar 8.5 it was around 180mb, but
I don't think anyone would suggest that it was an impediment. The
Finale Reader was created so that anyone could read Finale files
without having to obtain a particular version since regular Finale
programs are not backward compatible. Spectrum color was made
available in Finale 2008 for the first time. It was made available in
the Reader only a year ago. Graphics importation was not available in
Finale until version 2010. My file is 28mb because it contains
multiple imbedded jpeg images so that individuals can see a graphic of
a color coded keyboard as the music is playing. Without the keyboard
graphic, people would not be able to see the correlation between the
staff and the instrument.

My patent is a registered patent as previously stated. The patent
search on the government website is a bit convoluted so if you don't
know how to enter the search, you may not find what you are looking
for. If you enter the search as (Sandborn, Mark) you will get a
result.

Copyright notices are a common practice. Your generalities of saying
no one will give serious attention to my work are misguided. My
copyright and patent notice have nothing to do with your ability to
use Spectrum Color. It is simply protecting my original artwork and
invention. My patent is being used by Apple, Yamaha, Finale, Gvox,
and others. I believe those companies represent 'serious' attention.

On Dec 16, 7:24 pm, Michael Johnston

<mich...@michaelsmusicservice.com> wrote:
> > I downloaded your MUS file with the coloured noteheads.
>
> 28 megabytes! Wow, that's an impediment right off.
>
> My Finale 9 told me that this could not be opened with my version and
> that I needed version 15 something or other to read it. Wow, twice the
> impediments. I suppose I could download the reader version which would
> work, but for the widest audience, one should try not to exclude by
> using a recent version. I still offer PDFs compatible back to version 7
> -- they're a little bigger, but everyone can open them.
>

> US6930235B2 This is not a registered patent according tohttp://www.uspto.gov/patents/index.jsp. Google patents has never heard

> of it either. Neither patent search turned up anything for Vituoso Music
> or Mark Sandborn.
>
> The notice, "no part of this publication may be reproduced or
> distributed in any form or by any means, or stored in a database or
> retrieval system, without prior written permission from Mark Sandborn,"
> means that we will not be able to use any of your material on
> musicnotation.org unless we get from you a written statement (not email
> per the notice) granting permission. All of this is further impediment
> that no one will give serious attention to your work.
>
> If someone makes a video for the system, I'd be interested in seeing it
> under stage or club lighting. For me, certain colors, even under my
> office lighting, were all but completely washed out.
>
> Cheers!
> Michael
> --

> MICHAEL'S  MUSIC  SERVICE   4146 Sheridan Dr, Charlotte, NC 28205704-567-1066begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              704-567-1066      end_of_the_skype_highlighting  ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **http://michaelsmusicservice.com   "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

[Michael Johnston]

> You are wrong in saying there is no base color.

Is this presented somewhere else or is this your position? I do not
perceive this phenomenon, but Dr Sacks in Musicophilia explains that
some colors are commonly associated with certain colors but that this is
far from being a strict relationship. If you have evidence, I believe
many of us would be interested in it.

> Color can be used to define a specific frequency or a group
> of frequencies just like it is in painting.

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Audition/3.0/help.html?content=WS58a04a822e3e5010548241038980c2c5-7f8b.html

Here is a display which I can use. The colors are used to show pitch and
volume. Is this what you mean?

> You really can't get any more simple then using color. I can
> communicate with anyone using color. Color means the same thing in
> every language.

OK, you lose me here. I find it difficult to recognize color. What looks
green one day looks closer to blue the next. I do not think the
relationship between "color" and "language" has been described.
Certainly, there is little correlation between ethnic groups and
favorite colors; compare the flags of countries in Europe, Africa, and Asia.

> A small child can play in a color based system
> without the need for any explanation of the terms. They understand
> note relationships because color relationships are hard-wired in the
> brain due to the fact that our mind is an electromagnetic organism.

This is an enormous idea which ought to have real examination and
experimentation. I've heard arguments that pitch is likewise hard-wired
but all I've ever read is that this is incorrect, at its fundamental
level. There is at least a thesis and a book in this!

Cheers!
Michael
--
MICHAEL'S MUSIC SERVICE 4146 Sheridan Dr, Charlotte, NC 28205

704-567-1066 ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **

[Mark]

If you read the paper on my website titled Development of the Symmetry
Field Circle, the bibliography will point you towards a range of
sources. Specifically the work of Sheppard, Deutsch, and Hajdu is of
most relevance. Sheppard was pioneering in psychophysics with the
tritone paradox. Hajdu demonstrated for the first time that 12 equal
divisions of the octave are the most fundamental division of aural
perception and represent islands of stability.

> >704-567-1066begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              704-567-1066      end_of_the_skype_highlighting  ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **

> >http://michaelsmusicservice.com   "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the forum of the
> > Music Notation Project (hosted by Google Groups).
> > To post to this group, send email to musicn...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > musicnotatio...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at

[Mark]

As I previously stated, determining a scientifically proven base pitch
or a base color is irrelevant. We can arbitrarily pick a reference
pitch of say 262Hz and assoicate it with the color Red. Once that
selection is made then the entire system will align accordingly.

When you say that your perception of color shifts from one day to the
next, I have no reason to doubt that it does. However, more than
likely, you are not organizing your perception of color according to a
particular system of color measurement. In tuning, if we didn't
decide as a society to select a particular reference pitch, then we
would experience a multiplicity of tunings from one piano to the
next. The tone A could be viewed as 440hz, or 432hz, or 437.36hz.
The same is true of color. There is a wide range Reds within the
spectrum that we generally call Red. But we certainly wouldn't
confuse Red with Blue unless one was colorblind. With the Red
spectrum, we have names like Fuscia, Pink, Magenta, Brick, etc... to
name different subtleties of the Red Spectrum. However, if Red or
Magenta is defined as it is in the computer printing industry by a
consistent hue and shade, then I guarantee you and everyone else would
identify the same Red every single time you looked at it. Individuals
using Spectrum Color are referenceing the same 12 color set on a
consistent basis and never confuse a color. Are Red-Orange and Orange
close and not as differentiated as Orange and Green? Yes, but once
one realizes that they are looking for difference between closely
related colors, then the colors are easily differentiated because your
mind is 'tuned' to a particular set.

On Dec 17, 9:19 am, Michael Johnston

<mich...@michaelsmusicservice.com> wrote:
> > You are wrong in saying there is no base color.
>
> Is this presented somewhere else or is this your position? I do not
> perceive this phenomenon, but Dr Sacks in Musicophilia explains that
> some colors are commonly associated with certain colors but that this is
> far from being a strict relationship. If you have evidence, I believe
> many of us would be interested in it.
>
> > Color can be used to define a specific frequency or a group
> > of frequencies just like it is in painting.
>

> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Audition/3.0/help.html?content=WS58a04a82...

>
> Here is a display which I can use. The colors are used to show pitch and
> volume. Is this what you mean?
>
> > You really can't get any more simple then using color.  I can
> > communicate with anyone using color.  Color means the same thing in
> > every language.
>
> OK, you lose me here. I find it difficult to recognize color. What looks
> green one day looks closer to blue the next. I do not think the
> relationship between "color" and "language" has been described.
> Certainly, there is little correlation between ethnic groups and
> favorite colors; compare the flags of countries in Europe, Africa, and Asia.
>
> >  A small child can play in a color based system
> > without the need for any explanation of the terms.  They understand
> > note relationships because color relationships are hard-wired in the
> > brain due to the fact that our mind is an electromagnetic organism.
>
> This is an enormous idea which ought to have real examination and
> experimentation. I've heard arguments that pitch is likewise hard-wired
> but all I've ever read is that this is incorrect, at its fundamental
> level. There is at least a thesis and a book in this!
>
> Cheers!
> Michael
> --

> MICHAEL'S  MUSIC  SERVICE   4146 Sheridan Dr, Charlotte, NC 28205704-567-1066begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              704-567-1066      end_of_the_skype_highlighting  ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **http://michaelsmusicservice.com   "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Mark,
it is clear that we speak in different languages. Music is a form of rhytmic (pulsating) and superposed (chords, harmony, counterpoint) and consequential (melody) structure of tones.

Give me 12 colors and please explain me why should I have to correlate to colors when I just want to know how many and which intervals are there in my chord or melody. There is NO sequence between colors (if not viewed like infra-low to ultra-high or infra-red to ultra-violet).
So the Red might be the first or 0 (zero) or whatever "note" which is absolutely untrue regarding musical structure where every note could be a base for a chord or interval. Ok yellow now let be the base... so where is the relation of counting the intervals with colors?!
A structure means a separation of some characteristics based on simple math ratios (Phytgorean) or logaritmic similar-equalness.
It is not unknown that the ancient told us that mathematics came from music - maybe what they reffered back than to the logarythmic structure of sound and space-time (what our scientist rediscover now). Light could be electromagnetic but that is a whole new field of joy to mention and discuss.

Keep it simple and staight is what I feel is the true way of doing things. When you want to now how many notes there are in an interval or chord you just count them you do not relate them to subjective colors so then to see how those are related in a spectrum or defraction.
The circle of fifths I call it the spiral of sevenths 'cause as I said I keep it simple and straght: 12 tones = 12 names = 12 symbols (numbers). Simplier than that visual representation is impossible cous that is the inispensable and sufficient condition to order notes in 12-TET, to recognize them, and not to complicate them or relate them to every one of the other (A# is meaningless to me... that is why people that have many children tend to not name it with one name all of them).

I am translating my Treatise on Pentatonics these days and hope till the spring of 2011 to share it with all of you 'cause i believe there are the IMHO the most simpliest and adequate explanation and structure of 12-TET note relations in intervals, chords and so on. The most obvious is the very well hidden because it is the simpliest and nobody wants to be simple I would say as some kind of joke.

I do not want to tell the people to what color shoud they relate their emotions, or mnemonic system. Numbers are there, letters (as symbols for naming things) are also there. So keep it simple. I even came up with the idea the numbers 10, 11 well perhaps and 12 to be written with a single symbols or some ligature typology between the 1 and 0, 11 and 12... just to be simple but that is a rather small "issue" I would say.

So... once again - keep it simple.

[Mark]

Jason,

I appreciate what you have done and indeed, a number of ideas which
have been presented for notation reform. I will not argue with your
point that an individual can clearly look at the staff and correspond
a number there to a number on a keyboard. However, I still believe
that numbers are a bad way of naming musical frequencies for reasons I
have already stated. Because music is based in mathematics, there are
many needs to apply numbers to musical situations. If the note name
is also a number, then confusion will arrise. Let me provide you with
just such a circumstance.

Lets evaluate an overtone harmonic series beginning with C.

1=C, 2=C, 3=G, 4=C, 5=E, 6=G

in your system the result would be
1=1, 2=1, 3=8, 4=1, 5=5, 6=8

That would be very difficult to comprehend as a professional and even
more difficult to teach. The numbers lose their meaning in this
context. And that is just a simple example.

On Dec 16, 4:12 am, jason.mac...@gmail.com wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Using numbers 1-12 to label the notes is ideal because you can determine intervals just by comparing note numbers.  For example the +7 interval is always the perfect fifth.  No it is not a ratio but it tells you the interval and that is what is needed to apply the theory.  Defining the exact ratios are overly specific and superfluous.
>
> Numbered notes replaces letter names with numbers 1-12 AND uses numbers for timing in a clean and precise way that is unique.
>
> I also believe that NN is the idea that will change the world.  We already have people around the world downloading the IPhone App and soon to be ordering Christmas E-books for Beginner and Intermediate Piano and Guitar.  I have also converted Chopin and other complex songs as well as a symphony piece so it's credibility is now established.  My "just numbers" music is for beginners and can be played by any novice without instruction.  From there timing and other aspects are added.
>
> In my opinion many people who invent alternative notations just end up exchanging one bad idea for another without truly improving the system.  Wacky note heads, abstract lettering schemes and convoluted staff designs all populate the inventory of ideas.  I will also add some very brilliant ideas too and we all learn from each other.  I've been the one of the "numbers guys" and humbly add my solution to mix.  The only difference is that my idea offers more benefits of function and is way easier to learn than other systems that require interpretations of new and abstract symbols.
>
> Color is great in a way but it is not as good for indexing as a number symbol.  Also some people have a hard time distinguishing between red-orange and red, where people do not have a problem distinguishing between 3 and 4.  Also, at the end of the day knowing the distances between notes is helpful.
>
> Please have a look at Numbered Notes and let me know if you agree or disagree with my conclusions.
>
> Trust me, we will change music notation but it is going to be a battle...the idea that prevails will have to be created with the precision and quality of a Samurai sword!
>
> www.numberednotes.com
>
> Respectfully, Jason
>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Enrique Prieto]

I had seen the colored note heads before e.g.  http://www.musicincolor.com/English/About or http://mycolormusic.com/ as well as other places but never considered they were intrended to reform TN, or in most cases not seen as an alternative system, it is simply TN with the note heads colored.

I have seen it as another way of helping some students to cope with some TN known difficulties like the same note having different positions in the staff- x-clefs, the color is a resource for linking those positions at a glance (once you learn one position the color will guide you learn the others), as well as horizontally, subsequent repetition of the color could also be a reinforcement of association that we could get used to and even help the sharps-flats difficulty.

Those objective benefits could lead to some positive results (why not?) that could be blamed instead to some theories;- that it has to be specific colors in an specific order or you don’t get the best results, then it comes the patent and the whole package that we are so used to, mixture of objective and subjective is an old formula that usually works.

 

Enrique.

 

[Mark]

Enrique,

A few comments. The musicincolor.com link uses a color correlation to
the chromatic octave. Once again spectrum color cannot be related to
the chromatic octave but can only be related to the circle of 5ths.
Correlating color to the chromatic octave introduces abstractions in
that the meaning of the associated colors do not correspond to what is
being perceived aurally. The my color music website is using a true
Spectrum Color to circle of 5ths assignment, although the author is
misrepresenting himself by claiming origination of the idea. He also
alters the shape of noteheads unnecessarily.

I'm not sure exactly what you were getting at in your last paragraph.
If you could restate your comments I would be glad to respond.

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Would someone mind to give us 12 different colors (no light dark variations please, cause the 12-tones are unique so the colors should be):
I am suggesting: white (paper or closed empty circle on a screen or paper), black... well filled or contoured... you lost me here.
Blue, green, yellow, red, orange... brown maybe... violet magenta... erm-m what else? Arguably 9 till here... arguably 3 to go?

Let's consider them fited. So... how to write for example a Do major chord in a melodic inversion for example? Show it as simple as possible please. :)
 

[John Keller]

http://mycolormusic.com/

 

This site uses the same colour set as you, Mark!

 

The other site Enrique sited does not show its colours and the videos dont work. But I know of Candida Tobins colour method. In this however, the sharps and flats are not different ot the naturals, so it doesnt have the advantage of yours, where nextdoor chromatic notes always have a contrasting colour.

 

I would have great dificulty learning new colours for the notes because from an early age every note already has its own colour to me.

 

Are you saying that where you start in the spectrum is or is not important? ie does C have to be red or could it have been chosen to be any arbitrary colour?

 

John K

 

PS I still would like to see a Youtube video to prove your claims!

--

[Enrique Prieto]

Hi Mark, basically that for me the merit of coloring the heads in TN is objective, just a way of reinforcing discrimination and the possibility of visual correlation of the notes in some instruments, meaning that maybe the more distinctive they were the better for those purposes and students that anyway are learning TN be limited to the already complicated traditional system and not mix and duplicate with additional load and more theories.

Enrique.

[Enrique Prieto]

In other words Mark, there is a remote possibility that in time (who knows) technology enables and propagate the use of color in TN as an improvement, but emphasizing and concentration in the importance that it has to be specific colors for specific notes and then mixing those colors with music theory could actually hinder or complicate that possibility unnecessarily.

Enrique.

 

[adXok]

Well, John... please tell me that

http://mycolormusic.com/

is some kind of a joke. :)

[jason....@gmail.com]

The thing is the way you used the example is wrong so your conclusion about it being confusing is wrong.

You can write octave lines above or below the numbers to show what octave they are in. Thus avoiding the ambiguity created in the previous example.

Also, you mentioned "numbers are a bad way of naming musical frequencies" this comment is one I don't understand. Numbers are the BEST way of naming the fixed musical frequencies because as I've said before....and NOBODY can dispute......they provide a way to sequence/index the twelve notes and directly tell how far apart they are....thus telling you the interval. Go ask someone how far apart green is from red and if the know color theory they will say 6 because these are complimentary colors. The answer however is a number....because we use numbers to specify units.

The idea that this creates "too many" numbers is not true. Humans can understand layers of numbers without confusion. Somebody tell a better way to define music than with numbers...then try to explain why. People keep answering this challenge without really understanding how NN works.

Color and letters are cool but they are not for counting.

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

I do not like the idea notes to be written on a stave like numbers. Which note should be the first to always remain sticked to the number 1 (or better the number 0 if it's a base tone)?

Ok, write me some chords two or three in a sequence using different notes form 1 to 12 (better from 0 to 11 to corresponde to the 12 intervals in 12-TET). I would like to see a clear view of each chord base note, and clear showing of the inversion used in the harmony?
If tone Do is always 1 and tone So(l) is always 8 then a Do major chord will look like: 1-5-8 and a chord So(l): 8-3-12

Oh and with adding lines for a particular octave the mess that will come out is obvious. Just write me three chords in a sequence: Do maj, Sol dominant and semi-dim Mi for example on one stave. :)

[Dominique WALLER]

Hi Mark,

I regret certain people on this forum being impolite to you. I appreciate the clarity of your style. Your ideas are well stated and for me as a foreigner it’s a pleasure. I like in particular your preamble in six points:

 

>Music academia is locked in.  It is not that they can't change, because I have found chinks in the armor.  But it is not easy.

>Music manufacturers only care about money.  They don't really care about truth unless it makes them money.  So if they can see the monetary benefit they will be on board.
>Private music teachers generally won't risk new ideas for fear of staining their reputation. They would rather stand up in support of a failing system because of historical precedence then to pursue ideas which actually achieve results.

>Ordinary people just want to play music!  They could care less what method they take so long as they can learn to play and do so at a fairly rapid rate.

>Parents who know something about music or who previously took lessons will tend to stick with tradition for fear that their child will be ostracized or not be able to communicate with other musicians.

>Truth seekers, scientists, and inventors rarely achieve the success they deserve.  Truth is often hijacked by individuals with power or money so as to become irrelevant.

 

I think your analysis is accurate so far. BUT, there is a but…

            As far as I can remember, I think it’s the mathematician Euler who was the first to state that earring music is like a reckoning of the mind. But I think your error was to take this statement literally. The area of the brain that convert the sonic frequencies into musical pitches in our mind and the area of the brain that can figure mathematical ratios, those two areas are totally independent and have nothing to do with each other. So your idea of a possible subconscious conflict between numbers assigned to pitches and the mathematical data of their frequencies is totally unlikely (and even a bit preposterous, Mark, I’m sorry)!      Moreover, you say that your colors, following the cycle of fifths, can help see harmonic relations, but that works for fifths and not much more, it seems to me. In the example of a C E G chord, I can’t see any vicinity in the red of the C and the yellow of the E, while E and C in this case are in a direct, fundamental and well-known harmonic relation.

            And when it comes to your claims, I can believe you obtain good results with your pupils, but not for the reasons you speculate.

            As a result of you ordering colors by fifths for the chromatic notes of the octave, you have created a system were neighbor notes are very well differentiated of each other, contrarily to other alternative systems who could have tried to create a chromatic color progression from notes to notes. As a consequence, each note has a strong identity and you create the condition for an immediate visual recognition of each of the different notes. That can possibly help much in learning a piece effectively.

            As a number based notation inventor, I’m always confronted to the problem of the lack of immediate visual evidence of ciphers, especially when they are written in mere flat lines. You are absolutely right to say that color recognition is one of the most immediate kinds of recognition. Thank you for letting us remember that using colors can add a strong element of immediate recognition in the reading of a notation. Dominique Waller

> Message du 17/12/10 17:39
> De : "Mark"
> A : "The Music Notation Project | Forum"
> Copie à :
> Objet : [MNP] Re: After over a year

[Mark]

Lets look closer at the harmonic relations of the C-E-G chord. Are
you trying to suggest that the colors of C, E, and G should all be
closely related in order for color to have meaning? What about a C7
chord? Should all 4 notes of that chord be closely related colors in
order for the color to show harmonic relations. What about a C13
chord with all 7 stacked 3rds present. Should a C13 chord have a
closely related color in all 7 tones? Certainly not. You are missing
the point. Closeness in color is but only one type of color
relationship and it clearly defines the 5th. The major 3rd
relationship is defined by the primary color relationship which has a
completely different meaning for a reason. The primary color
relationship defines the extent of a particular color's range of
influence. For example, if Red is the color in question, then there
are diminishing amounts of Red in each color proceeding towards
Yellow, and there are diminishing amounts of Red proceeding towards
Blue.

Red = 100% Red - 0% Yellow
Red-Orange = 75% Red - 25% Yellow
Orange = 50% Red - 50% Yellow
Yellow-Orange = 25% Red - 75% Yellow
Yellow = 0% Red - 100% Yellow

or

Red = 100% Red - 0% Blue
Red-Violet = 75% Red - 25% Blue
Violet = 50% Red - 50% Blue
Blue-Violet = 25% Red - 75% Blue
Blue = 0% Red - 100% Blue

Mathematically, primary colors are defined by the 5:4 ratio. In sound,
the 5:4 ratio defines the interval of the major 3rd. When placed in
the context of chords, the major 3rd interval defines orientation. If
the major 3rd interval occurs with the root position of a chord, then
the chord will be major. If the major 3rd interval occurs with the 5th
position of a chord, then the chord will be minor. Of course minor is
derived from an 'undertone' harmonic wave in which the wave is being
viewed in reverse. And of course that is a fact of science that is
unlikely to be known by anyone in this group or musicians in general.
The Primary color interval is then defining orientation of a
particular type of wave and is visually describing what is being heard
aurally.

When you say that E and C in this case are in a direct, fundamental
and well-known harmonic relation, I would ask you to provide me with a
single reference that can explain how? The fact that in a C overtone
harmonic series, C being the 4th harmonic and E being the 5th harmonic
does not on its face explain some 'well known harmonic relation'. Do
you say its well know because textbooks say its well known or simply
because it appears to be common practice? If you were to obtain a
copy of one of the most used college textbooks on theory by Benward,
you would not find a single reference to some scientific fundamental
proof for the relationship between C and E. The fact is that music to
this point has relegated itself to being an 'art' and not a
'science'. So to say its a well known fundamental relation is simply
not true. Musicians and even physicists have not historically
explained the most basic musical structures. Take the idea of musical
key. If you can find a single scientific explanation of why 7
particular frequencies create a unified structure, I would be most
interested in seeing it.

I use the word historically, because in fact these structures 'can' be
explained through the new science which is behind the correlation
between electromagnetic waves and sound waves (ie. color to sound).
When musicians or physicists speak about harmonics, they in fact are
speaking historicall only about 'overtone' harmonics and completely
disregard 'undertone' harmonics. Undertone harmonics were discovered
in 1700 by Saveur and are the mathematical inversion of overtones, yet
occur simultaneous to overtones when a string, or any other harmonic
device is put into motion. The problem is that physicists were unable
to explain how they were occurring both then and now. It was at that
point in history that music began its journey towards becoming an
'art' instead of a science. Without an explanation for undertones,
musical structures such as 'chords' could only be defined by
experimentation as an aesthetic and not by some 'fundamental'
principle. Concepts such as major and minor are only emotional
monikers and have no basis in historical scientific fact.

Consider the following. The electromagnetic wave is a dual wave
composed of an electric wave and a magnetic wave which are
diametrically opposed. Yet through ignorance, musicians have believed
that sound is simply a single wave system that only proceeds in one
direction by a particular harmonic count. Sound in fact, functions
exactly like the electromagnetic wave with an undertone wave and
overtone wave which are diametrically opposed, coexisting
simultaneously. When this science is understood, the meaning of all
musical structures can be defined absolutely, and 'color' will also
absolutely define these structures. All matter is composed of
electromagnetic waves. Air is composed of electromagnetic waves. A
violin string is composed of electromagnetic waves. Sound waves move
through air. Is it really possible that somehow harmonics in sound
can have a completely different set of physics or mathematics then the
electromagnetic wave when everything in the universe is composed of
electromagnetic waves? The answer is an emphatic no. Can numbers
mean different things to different waves? No. The number 1 compared
to the number 2 will always have the relationship of an octave which
means 'identity' in any wave to which it is applied. The meaning of
numbers must be universal or the universe could not exist. So to say
that the 5:4 ratio in sound will not have the same meaning in light is
saying that numbers don't really mean anything and universal order
doesn't matter. Life could not exist without harmonic order and
consistency of mathematical meaning.

This line of inquiry goes much deeper than a simple discussion on the
relationship between C and E. What is really at stake is the entire
music system. When I propose to this forum a notation solution of
color, it is not some gimmick that is to be used to just make reading
music easier. If making music easier to read, or being able to
identify chords by the numbers 1-12 or 0-11 are the main points of
contention for the members of this forum, then you are on a journey
which is pointless. There is a science behind every single musical
concept, whether or not it has historically been defined or not.
Numbers have fundamental meaning defined by the waves which create
them. Sets of numbers define particular number species. These number
species have particular relationships to other number species with
absolute meaning. Considering these facts, color is a natual visible
language which absolutely defines all number relationships. When an
individual walks into a room, color fills their senses, and defines
meaning for what they are seeing. If color was not consistent as a
visible language representing species of numbers, then no meaning
could be obtained by 'looking' at the room.

On a personal note, I would like to thank you Dominque for raising the
question. If you feel I was being at all harsh in my response it was
unintended. I am simply trying to raise awareness of issues which are
not being discussed by this forum or by music academia. The truth is
that no one really cares. What this means is that as long as music
can remain an 'art', then there will be no motivation to change the
system. Any of the proposals of this forum will be turned aside with
complete disregard. Without science, none of the proposals of this
forum really mean anything. If concepts such as the major 3rd are not
truly understood from a wave perspective and the mathematics which
underlie them, then coming up with a new name is kind of pointless is
it not? How can anyone in this forum really say that their proposal
is better than what already exists if they can't define the
relationship of the 12 tones of the system scientifically?

Don't dismiss the historical system without understanding why it
exists in the first place. Some very intelligent individuals with
limited technology and knowledge developed a viable music model based
on the science at their disposal. Terminology and naming were not
conceived of arbitrarily, but were based on their understanding of
known harmonics. So for anyone to offer a new music system or naming
terminology, without offering a logic for how they are representing
the science of sound waves, is wasting their time.


On Dec 20, 8:20 am, Dominique WALLER <dominique.wal...@wanadoo.fr>
wrote:
> Hi Mark,I regret certain people on this forum being impolite to you. I appreciate the clarity of your style. Your ideas are well stated and for me as a foreigner it’s a pleasure. I like in particular your preamble in six points: >Music academia is locked in. It is not that they can't change, because I have found chinks in the armor. But it is not easy.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/musicnotation?hl=en- Hide quoted text -

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Mark,
I see you are giving a very good scientific understanding of what sound wave and electromagnetic waves might or could be and I appreciate that really. Let me write my answers or objections:

1. Do not consider there are 7 tones in a some kind of a "unified structure" 'cause that is untrue.
- I suppose you have heard of Pentatonics used in every part of the world since centuries (yes there are no prime intervals or semitone intervals every one would say)
- I suppose you know the scientific explanation of the 12-TET and Pythagorean TET... so, every n-tonal structure derived from it or present in it is just an excerpt, a particular group (special cases) or construction of tones called scales, modes and so on where there are at least one semitone interval (I call it prime or first interval); of course there are 24-TET (Indo-Arabian modes) and so on.

2. Music is form of art, tonal structures and harmonic vibrations are science, please do not misconcept the difference
- art is the possibility of a human will to express his thoughts and emotions transforming the environment or matter without making damage to the free will of others or to the environment itself, is that clear enough (music is just dealing with vibrational objects)?

3. Major or minor, there are so and so many other intervals that sound great in harmony or melody
- the devil interval (I call it sixth cause it is the middle in 12-TET logically) and the so called tritonus substitution... and so on
- the dominant interval (and its chord to rule them all) or as I call it a tenth or decima interval... every interval has its use
- major or minor are just intervals which is wider than the other form the latin words

4. Please give an example of 12 different tones defined as colors and assigned to the tones
- 12 please not 7 and give an example of what a 3:2 or 5:4 ratio means in terms of sound
- explain why you would make the given example by explaining what decisions you've made for the assigned colors
- how many colors you would define as primal colors and which one of them (do you allow the use of black and white)?
- please be as much simple and clear in scientific correlations between notes, TETs and colors as possible
- please explain what you mean by saying:
"Minor is derived from an 'undertone' harmonic wave in which the wave is being viewed in reverse."
I ask you to do this because in my "Treatise On Pentatonics" I have mentioned a few things about it as a lapse in theory of music.

5. Please give an example of a simple chord structure starting from at several different root notes
- how should the color stave look like?
- how should the inversions of intervals and chords (harmonic and melodic variations) look like?
- you say:
"Musical structures can be defined absolutely, and 'color' will also absolutely define these structures."
- so please give a few examples explaining TETs, intervals and please abide to the conditions of:
- unique correlations between a color and its corresponding sound vibration so to be recognizable at a glance
- need of correlating tonal musical sreuctures (scales) to colors (infra-red to ultra-violet maybe)

6. Speaking about numbers please bare in mind that numbers describe everything in the world of matter and energy but they are not matter or energy by themselves.
- so a number could mean: ratio, count, factor (coefficient), scalar and not only one of this terms
- with numbers you can describe every matterial or energy phenomenon but the numbers themselves

7. Please do not use colors as a fundamental base or less to explain... numbers. There are too many blind people out there and people with ocular disabilities.
- which wave creates which number?
You say:

"Numbers have fundamental meaning defined by the waves which create them."

- which color (electromagnetic wave) defines which fundamental meaning of a number?

2010/12/23 Mark <virtu...@gmail.com>

--
Ивайло Найденов
Ivaylo Naydenov

[Mark]

Ivaylo,

Thanks for your comments. You posed many questions which will take
time to answer. I don't have the time to respond to all of them at
this moment but I will respond as I get more time over the next week
or so. But let me say a few things...

First. Have you read the paper I posted on my website called "the
development of the symmetry field circle"? If you read that paper you
will be exposed to some of the arguements which I would use to respond
to your questions. Some arguments require graphics to clearly see
what is being discussed.

There are some points that need to be considered which are not
commonly understood.

1. The perception of sound is logarithmic. This is a proven fact.
This means that the historical view of harmonics as they are presented
in most physics or music books is a distortion of reality. Waves may
propogate physically as they are historically shown, but that has
nothing to do with how they are organized perceptually. Perception is
logarithmic.

2. Both waves and numbers have a natural hierarchy, just as all
things do. Everything counts! All waves count! Therefore numbers
are intimately tied to every aspect of wave function and derive their
meaning from their placement within a wave. Consider the hierarchy of
shell levels for elements within the periodic table. There is a
particular hierarchy of how different levels will get filled. The
same is true of numbers. The lowest level of meaning for numbers is
the initial harmonic count of 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5,
1/6 etc... When the numbers 1-12 are applied to tones within the
octave, these numbers really represent an advanced function of number
hierarchy such as 1= 2^(0/12), 2=2^(1/12), 3=2^(2/12), 4=2^(3/12),
etc... for 12TET. If a pythagorean tuning was used then these numbers
would be 1=3^0, 2=3^7, 3=3^2, 4=3^9, etc... In either of these cases,
the numbers 1,2,3,4, etc.. are representing power functions. The
power (exponent) function is part of the hierarchy of numbers and has
meaning. To assign these numbers arbitrarily without understanding
their meaning in the context of waves is pointless.

3. In order to understand undertone waves you need to read the paper
on my website. The diagrams are clear and it will open your eyes to a
new world of music perception.

4. Once you have read the paper we can have a discussion about
tuning, but I will make the following comments for now. Lets say that
their are 2 different ways in which the word tuning can be applied. A
violinist can tune their instrument to a particular type of
arrangement of tones. That type of tuning would be secondary to
deriving the tuning for the particular arrangement of tones such as
12TET. I will be commenting on the latter. Tuning came about as a
result of viewing sound as a single 'overtone' wave. When a single
wave is used then there can be no such concept as symmetry. Symmetry
means that their are ideas or matter, or something, which center
around a particular point. When single harmonics are used, there can
be no such point around which the numbers are in symmetry. Single
harmonics are one-sided and progress linearly forever. However,
because perception is logarithimic which is defined by helical
structures formed by replicates of the number 2, musicans and
physicists could historically not get away from the octave. So
somehow they had to reign in these 3^n harmonics which formed
consecutive 5ths, and ultimately allign them to 12 equalized points
around a circle. Of course along the way, just tunings, and meantone
tunings, well-tempered tunings, and others were used in an attempt to
determine how best to reign in the linear 3^n harmonics. But the only
reason this history of tuning even occurred was because the 'overtone'
harmonic series was the only harmonic series being used, which is a
false reality. When both the undertone and overtone series are
understood and viewed simultaneously, then it will immediately be
understood that the concept of tuning is irrelevant. Nothing needs to
be tuned! Undertone and overtone waves work as a unified structure
and create points of symmetry naturally. I realize that this idea
will probably not be immediately understood by you or the group
because you have never conceived of such a thing, but it is a
reality. If you read the paper, you will then understand this
concept. Once this concept is understood then I can make other
comments on the various historical tunings in relationship to the
'fundamental' symmetrical structure of sound waves.

5. The more one learns about the science of waves, the more 'artful'
the science becomes. Lets leave the idea of free will out of the
discussion because all of us may have widely different views on that
matter. Regardless of ones view on free will, there are absolute laws
of the organization of sound waves which create musical structures
from which we form 'art'.

6. It really doesn't matter whether or not blind people can see color
or not. That in no way nullifies is validity. Deaf individuals may
not be able to hear sound, but that in no way nullifies the need to
define sound scientifically. We should never diminish science because
of certain individuals inability to percieve and employ a particular
sense.

Mark Sandborn

On Dec 23, 5:35 am, Ivaylo Naydenov <adxok....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark,
> I see you are giving a very good scientific understanding of what sound wave
> and electromagnetic waves might or could be and I appreciate that really.
> Let me write my answers or objections:
>
> 1. Do not consider there are 7 tones in a some kind of a "unified structure"
> 'cause that is untrue.
> - I suppose you have heard of Pentatonics used in every part of the world
> since centuries (yes there are no prime intervals or semitone intervals
> every one would say)
> - I suppose you know the scientific explanation of the 12-TET and
> Pythagorean TET... so, every n-tonal structure derived from it or present in

> it is just an excerpt, a particular group *(special cases)* or construction

> of tones called scales, modes and so on where there are at least one

> semitone interval *(I call it prime or first interval)*; of course there are
> 24-TET *(Indo-Arabian modes)* and so on.

>
> 2. Music is form of art, tonal structures and harmonic vibrations are
> science, please do not misconcept the difference
> - art is the possibility of a human will to express his thoughts and
> emotions transforming the environment or matter without making damage to the

> free will of others or to the environment itself, is that clear enough *(music
> is just dealing with vibrational objects)*?

>
> 3. Major or minor, there are so and so many other intervals that sound great
> in harmony or melody

> - the *devil* interval (I call it sixth cause it is the middle in 12-TET

> logically) and the so called tritonus substitution... and so on

> - the *dominant* interval (and its chord to rule them all) or as I call it a

> tenth or decima interval... every interval has its use
> - major or minor are just intervals which is wider than the other form the
> latin words
>
> 4. Please give an example of 12 different tones defined as colors and
> assigned to the tones
> - 12 please not 7 and give an example of what a 3:2 or 5:4 ratio means in
> terms of sound
> - explain why you would make the given example by explaining what decisions
> you've made for the assigned colors

> - how many colors you would define as primal colors and which one of them *(do
> you allow the use of black and white)*?

> - please be as much simple and clear in scientific correlations between
> notes, TETs and colors as possible
> - please explain what you mean by saying:

> "*Minor is derived from an 'undertone' harmonic wave in which the wave is
> being viewed in reverse.*"
> I ask you to do this because in my "*Treatise On Pentatonics*" I have

> mentioned a few things about it as a lapse in theory of music.
>
> 5. Please give an example of a simple chord structure starting from at
> several different root notes
> - how should the color stave look like?

> - how should the inversions of intervals and chords *(harmonic and melodic
> variations)* look like?

> - you say:
> "Musical structures can be defined absolutely, and 'color' will also
> absolutely define these structures."
> - so please give a few examples explaining TETs, intervals and please abide
> to the conditions of:
> - unique correlations between a color and its corresponding sound vibration
> so to be recognizable at a glance

> - need of correlating tonal musical sreuctures *(scales)* to colors *(infra-red
> to ultra-violet maybe)*

>
> 6. Speaking about numbers please bare in mind that numbers describe
> everything in the world of matter and energy but they are not matter or
> energy by themselves.

> - so a number could mean: ratio, count, factor *(coefficient)*, scalar and

> not only one of this terms
> - with numbers you can describe every matterial or energy phenomenon but the
> numbers themselves
>
> 7. Please do not use colors as a fundamental base or less to explain...
> numbers. There are too many blind people out there and people with ocular
> disabilities.
> - which wave creates which number?
> You say:

> "*Numbers have fundamental meaning defined by the waves which create them.*"
> - which color *(electromagnetic wave)* defines which fundamental meaning of
> a number?
>
> 2010/12/23 Mark <virtuoso...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Mark,
I started to read "The development of the symmetry field circle" but I consider it lacking of definition abput many things even from the start paragraph.
- perception is not logarithmic, logarythm describes the simmilar equality in matter of things, energy transformation, electromagnetism and self-resembling geometry, scales and so on
- our ears resonate in phase with the vibrating air and this vibration has logarythmic geometry thus every renova (octave) is self-resembled vibrational sector of the same environment
- there is no plain energy... there are energetic states which we observe as matter, sound, electricity, light...
- number 2 gives the most simple and clear self-simmilarity of whatever thing there is also vibration, state or area
- number 1 gives the definition of an entiy
- number 0 defines void and base of coincidence (it's more of a philosophical discussion than anything else)

I suppose you know that chromatic from greek means colored. If that kind of research is what you wrote about in "The development of the symmetry field circle" then that is very good job. I have to admit that I stoped reading it at:
"The 2^n power function forms a helical model where all 2n numbers exist along the same side or vector of the helix (Sheppard)."
How and why it is like that and where did the helical model came from or the vectors of each of its sides... I do not know. And most over why it should be considered "A perceptual model"?! I do not understand.

I suppose that you know that sound is the most easy and simple form of transforming energy and audible if there is a matter to support the resonance of the eardrums that transmit it to the brain so we to hear that transformation as Sound. Ears, eyes nerves are just transmitters and detectors of energy transformation.

So please... this has nothing to do with Music notations, Music symbols, Naming the notes whatever you like (name them as flowers, pets, colors and so on...). The colors of visible light when described as numbers of frequencies could be correlate to every structure of arranged things and doesn't mean that those things have that particular color.

Please do not stick yourslef to colors because (and please do not find this abusive) people like Stevie Wonder might think that you are tring to sell them something here. Colors are just a visible part of what we know as light. No eyesight - no colors, no eardrums - no sound. So what exactly is your point: to show us how to relate eyesight to earing (that is irrelevant for musicians in general) although it is a really interesting stuff by itslef to be done such a correlation.

I want to say it once again - if you explain the Chromatic as translated from greek as Colored - then ok. I appreciate that very well and it has to had it's explanation somewhere. 12 tones or circle divisions are not the only possibility after all. Music is dealing with vibrations in time, nothing more. And I here at this forum for Musical Notation System do not consider useful reading deep advanced physics with crowded tables with nubers and ratios. Numbers help us describe the world and matter but the numbers itsleves are not the matter are not the world. Numbers are just a system for communication and description and could be use for anything as I said already (just like letters represent previously defined sounds and other symbols represnet other things).
With that said I answer to your statement there that:

"To assign these numbers arbitrarily without understanding their meaning in the context of waves is pointless."

Numbers always, always have contextual meaning. Thus undertones could not change the way I percieve music or light or whatever. Tunings are just right resonances of a single tone given (produced). Acoustic music instruments tend to behave as resonators and different instruments (matter and its geometry) resonate different resonances (overtones, undertones). So that is why Phytagoreans struggled with the Naturalists... because not all resonances in musical instruments obey the 3^n function or the 3/2 ratio.

It is not about the overtones or undertones neither. It is about the Notation and Music theory, not sound or light theory and how they intersect and overlap (I understand your point but it is for a different subject I think). So here is a simple solution about Music theory:

I am using numbers to arrange the musical intervals as simply as possible thus:
0 - unison (no interval) or start tone, a tone by itself is introduced
1 - prime interval (the first and smallest interval of whatever tonal system you have)
2 - second interval...
3 - third...
so on...

Give me "19 tone system" (no matter of what temperament) and I will name you the intervals between its notes (steps).
This applies to a scale form a starting tone, to arppegio, to a chord... or to any form of structured tones.

7-tone scales of contemporary music are just an excerpt of the 12-tonal system (12-TET). Sooner the musicians and academy world realize that, simpliest the musical notation will be. Of course this means also that the piano is also a bad inherit of a excerpt tones. That is all.

2010/12/23 Mark <virtu...@gmail.com>

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[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Many people wonder why is it the Musci System exactly 12-tonal system (or 12-TET). Why is that mystical number 12. Well in fact it is a 6-tonal system that is devided into 2 subdivisions for each tone (treated as its interval).
It is not true that only the 12 exponential steps of 3/2 ratio almost match the 8 exponential steps of 2 thus giving us the 12-tones in greek-european music.

There are number of matches like that. For example:
3 exponential steps of 5/4 ratio almost match the 1 exponential step of 2 (the renova iself... ok, you still call it octave)
5 exponential steps of 5/4 ratio almost match the 1 exponential step of 3 (the 3/2 ratio iself)
6 exponential steps of 9/8 ratio almost match the 1 exponential step of 2 (the renova iself... ok, you still call it octave)
2 exponential steps of 11/8 ratio almost match the 4 exponential steps of 9/8 and so on... and so on.

What you see in red-bold-italic is the devilish (dimminised) scale-arppegio which of course is considered to be symmetric in 12-TET. Well it is in fact its predecessor and Phytagoreans knew that very well too. It is a tonal system, scale of some kind with I might say lower resolution. The smallest resolution would be the square root of two - giving us two notes only (starting tone and its devilish as I call it).

So no matter of what tonar resolution a musician is using he/she ought to give unique names of the tones used and consequential numbering of the intervals used! The simple - the best. :)

[Enrique Prieto]

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Mark <virtu...@gmail.com> wrote:

So for anyone to offer a new music system or naming
terminology, without offering a logic for how they are representing
the science of sound waves, is wasting their time.

Mark, your radical statements seem to exclude the possibility that music could also be considered a kind of language with which we make art; language came first then science and music exist in our minds in complete silence and darkness.

In languages it is irrelevant the answers to a why if anyway we have to study and accept them as they evolve.

However music is music on its own right and it is not necessary to make it a dependency of science or language.

Then we can provide an objective support to music away from theories that might be wrong or become obsolete as it evolves.

I don’t care much in theories explaining why a specific order in the performance of some chords is pleasant to me; I care more about providing a simple yet robust method of describing any possible succession of harmonies to make easier exploring, memorizing and communicating them, allowing also the production of faultless harmony descriptions by computer applications which is obstructed by theories.

Being also radical I would say that a minimum requirement today is to provide isomorphic support to music; which is missing in your scientific coloring of note heads.

 

 Enrique.

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

I read the .pdf from Mark's web-page and in general there are good ideas in it. The "missing link" I couldn't find is, quote:

"If color is correctly applied to the properties of numbers defined through the development of the Chromatic Circle, then a 1:1 correspondence should be revealed."

The color concept is allready published in the link here:
http://www.lunarplanner.com/Harmonics/planetary-harmonics.html

So nothing new. Colored notes and frequencies are not knew, even the ancient greeks knew something about that. ;)

2010/12/27 Enrique Prieto <mtall...@gmail.com>

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[John Keller]

The link you cite here takes the idea that the light frequencies can be thought of as 40 octaves higher than the sound frequencies. So the colour spectrum corresponds to the chromatic scale, whereas Mark's idea is that the colour spectrum refers to the circle of 5ths. The latter is more useful, since notes a semitone apart have almost opposite colours, so sharps flats and naturals are not misread.

 

I also appreciate that 5ths being closely related mean that related chords have close colours, also that the major thirds have a "primary colour " relationship, since these are found at one third the way round the key circle (C, E and L would be red yellow and blue).

 

But in general, I dont see colour as anything more intrinsically related to the 12 music pitches. You could, for example assign 12 vowel sounds to the key circle with the one third points being ah, ee and oo. People (like me) with synesthesia-related colour to note associations often differ quite a lot as to their specific associations. And in my case I have different associations of enharmonics, despite their pitches being the same. (Ab is mauve, G# is orangey-brown! And "L" is light blue)

 

John K

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Hi, John :)
I do not know what does mean: opposite color... white to black or violet to red and so on.
Every painter knows that when you mix blue and yellow there is green comming up. But the same is valid for whatever two colors we have and I pesonaly do not understand the Yellow-Orange-Yellow or Red-Orange-Red names of the colors.
As the light spectrum is consistent so does the sound frequencies. What is a good harmony in sound or in color all depends on the gammut you use and how you use it.

Mark has explained very well the nature of frequencies but that is deep physics stuff and has nothing to do to Musical Notations - so he obviously uses the old as i call it flat-sharp alterations.

It is very well know that light frequencies could be corelated to sound frequencies. Mark just gives us one point of view of how that could be done and basically understood although there are some approximations like the Ratio or Logarithm corelation.
It is very simple to understand that both are divisions but in a different dimensions: 1/2 and √2 are both divisions in that way.
Sad that in school they are teaching it the wrong way.

2010/12/30 John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au>

[John Keller]

By opposite colours, yes, I mean black to white - but not red to violet (opposite ends of the spectrum). I mean red to green or Yellow to purple.

 

These are the photographic negatives of each other, which you can easily see on the computer screen when you "select" (highlight with the mouse). "Black" becomes "white", blue becomes orange. (Well, yellow if you select the blue text here - this is because the primary colours for light as on screen are different than from those for paint pigments.)

 

Mark has chosen his colours so that notes a tritone apart are opposite colours, and therefor notes a semitone apart are almost opposites.

 

Cheers, John K

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ivaylo Naydenov

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 1:03 AM

Subject: Re: [MNP] Re: After over a year

Hi, John :)
I do not know what does mean: opposite color... white to black or violet to red and so on.
Every painter knows that when you mix blue and yellow there is green comming up. But the same is valid for whatever two colors we have and I pesonaly do not understand the Yellow-Orange-Yellow or Red-Orange-Red names of the colors.
As the light spectrum is consistent so does the sound frequencies. What is a good harmony in sound or in color all depends on the gammut you use and how you use it.

Mark has explained very well the nature of frequencies but that is deep physics stuff and has nothing to do to Musical Notations - so he obviously uses the old as i call it flat-sharp alterations.

It is very well know that light frequencies could be corelated to sound frequencies. Mark just gives us one point of view of how that could be done and basically understood although there are some approximations like the Ratio or Logarithm corelation.

It is very simple to understand that both are divisions but in a different dimensions: 1/2 and Б┬ 2 are both divisions in that way.

2010/12/30 John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au>

п≤п╡п╟п╧п╩п╬ п²п╟п╧п╢п╣п╫п╬п╡

Ivaylo Naydenov

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[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Оk, seems like there is a really good purpose for the old CRT tube screens to be of blue, red and green "pixels" in a group.
Red and blue lomg and short blu-ray, infra red ports, bluetooth?

My brother is a painter. He back in academic years was obsessed by the thoght that a great painter is the painter that works only with no more than 4 colors + black and white. Blue, red, yellow, green. RGB, CMYK... common guys there is nothing new here.
Of course you can interpolate every single wave if in a spectrum when you have at least the two far opposites. That is true even in Fourier's transformations.

I cannot see anything really new here. Pythagoren comma is just where Pi and 22/7 differ in analogical way of thinking. The greeks and even the ancient egyptians had the concept of square root and Pi = 22/7 and how those mysterious fractal numbers could be approximized to a ratio numbers depending on how deep you want to go into the dimensions.
Yes, light is very informational and next is sound. In that way every analogy is possible depending on how deep you want to go or precise to be.
Black and white are very, very subjective.
The opposite colors are primary study in art even in art schools (or at least where my brother studied).
http://media.wiley.com/Lux/89/126589.image0.jpg

12 is just a better resolution. A real painter only works with 4 colors and guess what - this is the symmetrical 4-tone arppegio (the so called dimminished scale arppegio). Also may call it fourth root of two 4√2. A desired resolution would be "any number underlined"√2. There is a geometrical way of making a circle depending on how deep (rounded) you want that circle to be. The main constraint would be the uniformity of the lenghts of the sides. Sound frequencies also make beautiful geometrical shapes and figures and there are very very old experiments proving that fact. So a geometrical analogy is present as I mentioned before.

But I still do not understand where is the Musical Notation part in all of that. I bet chinese have some strange glyphs of every tone they use in native music so does the indians and arabs, persians and so on. The world is wide enough.

2010/12/31 John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au>

--
Ивайло Найденов
Ivaylo Naydenov

[Jason Maccoy]

Personally I would color the notes 1-12 in a linear fashion instead of using the circle of fifths. So 1 would be red, 2 would be red-orange, 3 would be orange ....and so on.  That way the 5th (wich is ACTUALLY 7 half steps away!!!!) would be the "split complimentary" this would create a logical color scheme where you could see music and color elements in the same way.

By the way, I would invite you all to join my Numbered Notes FaceBook page.  I'm posting some new content and growing a global friend base. 

 

Numbers are the most superior way to name the notes and nobody can deny that.  They are logical and allow for instant recognition of intervals!

It's time to jump into the matrix!

 

www.numberednotes.com

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

I agreee wtih Jason but want to make some little adjustments. The so called "fifth" (seventh) is actually 7 steps away, not half-steps. :)
I do not agree with Jason that notes should be named with the numbers. They allready have their names (the very 7 of it of course).
I just gave the names to the rest 5 which form the favourite major/minor pentatonic so the notes have their unique names in short syllables starting with unique consonant folowed by a vowel. Simple and clean.

Why I think notes cannot be named with numbers? Because there is no first note BUT a first interval (prime, one step, the smallest interval in a TET). Zero interval is the very same unison or two equal in frequency notes. Thus the Zero interval is giving us the base note of a following interval.

In fact music is not made using the notes but using the intervals. A bunch of bricks do not make a house but if you arrange them in very specific way... no you can call that a house. :)
Just a stupid analogy to look myself wise. Happy New year Australia and Japan!

2010/12/31 Jason Maccoy <jason....@gmail.com>

[Jason Maccoy]

I agree that they should be referred to as steps.

But how would you name the notes if not in a logical linear number sequence 1-12?  It is the Numbering of the Notes 1-12 that makes chromatic interval navigation possible.  Do you keep the letters?  How do you name the notes?

www.numberednotes.com

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Hi, Jason
Oh, there was a very, very big thread here, where I 've posted some long explanations to be more specific on the subject.

Jason, if you want to call a note with the sign 5 that should be sticked to that note (and its "octave" notes of course which I call renovas from the latin renova = anew, again thus octava = renova). If 5 is a sign for a note then form 5 to 7 notes you have interval of 2 (7-5) = 2. Yes, but 2 is a name of another note. So numbers for names is inappropriate. That is why I use numbers only for intervals not for naming the notes.
The note names are as follows (old names taken from various sources like India, Byzanthine, Arabia, "Sancti Ioanes"):

standart piano-keyboard layout:

    Bu     Na         Ge    Vu   Ha
Do    Re     Mi Fa     So    Le     Ti (Do - renova)

Jankò piano-keyboard layout (the best layout which I use in my designed keyboard):

    Bu    Na   Fa     So    Le   Ti
Do    Re    Mi    Ge    Vu   Ha  (Do - renova)


Take their firs letters and you have the unique signs for every 12 notes. The names are shown above allrady. For intervals - mentioned a few posts above also.

2010/12/31 Jason Maccoy <jason....@gmail.com>

[jko...@bigpond.net.au]

I have mentioned this before, but "steps' is the logical way to refer to the major scale notes, which can be sung easily. Try singing the chromatic scale! Even very good singers find this difficult. The way we measure intervals aurally is in relation to the major scale, so calling these notes "steps" is logical. Some of these steps are larger (major or wholetones or wholesteps) and some smaller (minor or semitones or halfsteps) It is pointless to change familiar terminology. But adding terminology can be useful. The chromatic ordering of 12 pitches could be called "pitch-line increments" or pli. Thus the "perfect 5th" (5th degree of the major scale) is 7-pli away from the 1st degree.

Btw, complementary colours are what i meant by opposite.

Happy new year from Sydney!

john K

---- Jason Maccoy <jason....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree that they should be referred to as steps.
>
> But how would you name the notes if not in a logical linear number sequence
> 1-12? It is the Numbering of the Notes 1-12 that makes chromatic interval
> navigation possible. Do you keep the letters? How do you name the notes?
>
> www.numberednotes.com
>

> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:01 AM, Ivaylo Naydenov <adxo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > I agreee wtih Jason but want to make some little adjustments. The so called

> > "fifth" *(seventh)* is actually 7 steps away, not half-steps. :)

> > I do not agree with Jason that notes should be named with the numbers. They

> > allready have their names *(the very 7 of it of course)*.

> > I just gave the names to the rest 5 which form the favourite major/minor
> > pentatonic so the notes have their unique names in short syllables starting
> > with unique consonant folowed by a vowel. Simple and clean.
> >
> > Why I think notes cannot be named with numbers? Because there is no first

> > note BUT a first interval *(prime, one step, the smallest interval in a
> > TET). *Zero interval is the very same unison or two equal in frequency

> >>> The opposite colors are primary study in art even in art schools *(or at
> >>> least where my brother studied)*.

> >>> http://media.wiley.com/Lux/89/126589.image0.jpg
> >>>
> >>> 12 is just a better resolution. A real painter only works with 4 colors

> >>> and guess what - this is the symmetrical 4-tone arppegio *(the so called
> >>> dimminished scale arppegio)*. Also may call it fourth root of two *4*√2.
> >>> A desired resolution would be *"any number underlined"*√2. There is a
> >>> geometrical way of making a circle depending on how deep *(rounded)* you

> >>> want that circle to be. The main constraint would be the uniformity of the
> >>> lenghts of the sides. Sound frequencies also make beautiful geometrical
> >>> shapes and figures and there are very very old experiments proving that
> >>> fact. So a geometrical analogy is present as I mentioned before.
> >>>
> >>> But I still do not understand where is the Musical Notation part in all
> >>> of that. I bet chinese have some strange glyphs of every tone they use in
> >>> native music so does the indians and arabs, persians and so on. The world is
> >>> wide enough.
> >>>
> >>> 2010/12/31 John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au>
> >>>

> >>> By opposite colours, yes, I mean black to white - but not red to violet(opposite ends of the spectrum).I mean

> >>>> red to green or Yellow to purple.
> >>>>
> >>>> These are the photographic negatives of each other, which you can easily
> >>>> see on the computer screen when you "select" (highlight with the mouse).
> >>>> "Black" becomes "white", blue becomes orange. (Well, yellow if you
> >>>> select the blue text here - this is because the primary colours for light as
> >>>> on screen are different than from those for paint pigments.)
> >>>>
> >>>> Mark has chosen his colours so that notes a tritone apart are opposite
> >>>> colours, and therefor notes a semitone apart are almost opposites.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers, John K
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>

> >>>> *From:* Ivaylo Naydenov <adxo...@gmail.com>
> >>>> *To:* musicn...@googlegroups.com
> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, December 31, 2010 1:03 AM
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [MNP] Re: After over a year

> >>>>> *From:* Ivaylo Naydenov <adxo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> *To:* musicn...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 28, 2010 6:24 AM
> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [MNP] Re: After over a year

> >>>>>
> >>>>> I read the .pdf from Mark's web-page and in general there are good
> >>>>> ideas in it. The "missing link" I couldn't find is, quote:
> >>>>>

> >>>>> *"If color is correctly applied to the properties of numbers defined

> >>>>> through the development of the Chromatic Circle, then a 1:1 correspondence

> >>>>> should be revealed."*

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

john K,
I prefer singing the lydian scale and mostly I consider the dominant scale exaclty Dominant major over all. Why - you could read in my "Treatise on Pentatonics" which I am translating in into english.
I said it before but the major scale (natural major to be more precise) is just a special case of 7 notes grouped in a scale and that is all. No musician thinks forst of of a natural major (and in fact the very special case of Do natural major) so then to decide what tones to play - would be complete nonsense and ridiculous.
The most simple way is the best way. You have 12 notes - name it as short as possible and with unique distinguishable names.
You have also 12 intervals, give them a relation from the smallest (zero, unison) to the biggest in an "octave" (renova I call it). So a seventh in the next renova becomes a reseventh and that is the most simple way of recognizing the notes when they repeat in a register.

Thus a "perfect 5-th" would be a 7-th (these are intervals by the way). In the next renova above it would be :7-th and below it would be 7: and so on. If a third renova tone is present we would have ⋮7 (above) or 7⋮ (below a base tone) and so on. So simple.
And please no references to any excerpt 7 tone scales to alterate their tones woth flats and sharps.

2011/1/1 <jko...@bigpond.net.au>

I have mentioned this before, but "steps' is the logical way to refer to the major scale notes, which can be sung easily. Try singing the chromatic scale! Even very good singers find this difficult. The way we measure intervals aurally is in relation to the major scale, so calling these notes "steps" is logical. Some of these steps are larger (major or wholetones or wholesteps) and some smaller (minor or semitones or halfsteps) It is pointless to change familiar terminology. But adding terminology can be useful. The chromatic ordering of 12 pitches could be called "pitch-line increments" or pli. Thus the "perfect 5th" (5th degree of the major scale) is 7-pli away from the 1st degree.

Btw, complementary colours are what i meant by opposite.

Happy new year from Sydney!

john K

---- Jason Maccoy <jason....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree that they should be referred to as steps.
>
> But how would you name the notes if not in a logical linear number sequence
> 1-12?  It is the Numbering of the Notes 1-12 that makes chromatic interval
> navigation possible.  Do you keep the letters?  How do you name the notes?
>
> www.numberednotes.com
>

> >>>>  *From:* Ivaylo Naydenov <adxok.com@gmail.com>

> >>>>> *From:* Ivaylo Naydenov <adxok.com@gmail.com>

[Enrique Prieto]

Some more color theories http://www.musicalcolors.com/tst/home.html , http://therainbowchart.com/index.html 

 

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

And all they suffer from flat-sharp refferences to the Do major scale. Pitty and old and so incomplete.

2011/1/2 Enrique Prieto <mtall...@gmail.com>

Some more color theories http://www.musicalcolors.com/tst/home.html , http://therainbowchart.com/index.html 

 

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[Doug Keislar]

I agree with John here:

Mark's idea is that the colour spectrum refers to the circle of 5ths. The latter is more useful, since notes a semitone apart have almost opposite colours, so sharps flats and naturals are not misread.

It is of course logical to map an audio frequency spectrum directly to a light spectrum, which means that neighboring colors of the rainbow are mapped to neighboring pitches (frequencies close to each other).О©╫ However, if the goal is to make music easier to read, you want to avoid reading errors.О©╫ Neighboring pitches should be easy to discriminate from each other.О©╫ Putting (for example) an orange-yellow color a half step away from a yellow color would be inviting reading errors. (This assumes the notation is using both vertical displacement, as on a staff, and color to denote pitch.)

Mapping the color spectrum to the circle of fifths, instead of to the chromatic scale, has not only the advantage of contrast between neighboring pitches (to avoid reading errors) but also the property of highlighting tonal relations -- which is an advantage unless you're interested only in atonal music and want to disguise such relationships.

There are also practical considerations, such as the fact that yellow is hard to distinguish against a white background, not to mention the fact that quite a few people are color-blind to some extent.

Doug


On 12/30/2010 2:28 PM, John Keller wrote:

By opposite colours, yes,О©╫I mean black to white -О©╫but not red to violet (opposite ends of the spectrum). I meanО©╫redО©╫to green or YellowО©╫to purple.

О©╫

These are the photographic negatives of each other, which you can easily see on the computer screen when you "select" (highlight with the mouse). "Black" becomes "white", blue becomes orange. (Well, yellow if you select the blue textО©╫here - this is because the primary colours for light as on screen are different than from those for paint pigments.)

О©╫

Mark has chosen his colours so that notes a tritone apart are opposite colours, and therefor notes a semitone apartО©╫are almost opposites.

О©╫

Cheers, John K

О©╫

----- Original Message -----

From: Ivaylo Naydenov

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 1:03 AM

Subject: Re: [MNP] Re: After over a year

Hi, John :)
I do not know what does mean: opposite color... white to black or violet to red and so on.
Every painter knows that when you mix blue and yellow there is green comming up. But the same is valid for whatever two colors we have and I pesonaly do not understand the Yellow-Orange-Yellow or Red-Orange-Red names of the colors.
As the light spectrum is consistent so does the sound frequencies. What is a good harmony in sound or in color all depends on the gammut you use and how you use it.

Mark has explained very well the nature of frequencies but that is deep physics stuff and has nothing to do to Musical Notations - so he obviously uses the old as i call it flat-sharp alterations.

It is very well know that light frequencies could be corelated to sound frequencies. Mark just gives us one point of view of how that could be done and basically understood although there are some approximations like the Ratio or Logarithm corelation.
It is very simple to understand that both are divisions but in a different dimensions: 1/2 and Б┬ 2 are both divisions in that way.
Sad that in school they are teaching it the wrong way.

2010/12/30 John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au>

The link you cite here takes the idea that the light frequencies can be thought of as 40 octaves higher than the sound frequencies. So the colour spectrum corresponds to the chromatic scale, whereas Mark's idea is that the colour spectrum refers to the circle of 5ths. The latter is more useful, since notes a semitone apart have almost opposite colours, so sharps flats and naturals are not misread.

О©╫

I also appreciate that 5ths being closely related mean that related chords have close colours, also that the major thirds have a "primary colour " relationship, since these are found at one third the way round the key circleО©╫(C, E and L would be red yellow and blue).

О©╫

But in general, I dont see colour as anything more intrinsically related to the 12 music pitches. You could, for example assign 12 vowel sounds to the key circle with the one third points being ah,О©╫ee and oo. People (like me) with synesthesia-related colour to note associations often differ quite a lot as to their specific associations. And in my case I have different associations of enharmonics, despite their pitches being the same. (Ab is mauve, G# is orangey-brown!О©╫And "L" is light blue)

О©╫

John K

О©╫

О©╫

----- Original Message -----

From: Ivaylo Naydenov

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 6:24 AM

Subject: Re: [MNP] Re: After over a year

I read the .pdf from Mark's web-page and in general there are good ideas in it. The "missing link" I couldn't find is, quote:

"If color is correctly applied to the properties of numbers defined through the development of the Chromatic Circle, then a 1:1 correspondence should be revealed."

The color concept is allready published in the link here:
http://www.lunarplanner.com/Harmonics/planetary-harmonics.html

So nothing new. Colored notes and frequencies are not knew, even the ancient greeks knew something about that. ;)

2010/12/27 Enrique Prieto <mtall...@gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Mark <virtu...@gmail.com> wrote:

So for anyone to offer a new music system or naming
terminology, without offering a logic for how they are representing
the science of sound waves, is wasting their time.

Mark, your radical statements seem to exclude the possibility that music could also be considered a kind of language with which we make art; language came first then science and music exist in our minds in complete silence and darkness.

In languages it is irrelevant the answers to a why if anyway we have to study and accept them as they evolve.

However music is music on its own right and it is not necessary to make it a dependency of science or language.

Then we can provide an objective support to music away from theories that might be wrong or become obsolete as it evolves.

I don’t care much in theories explaining why a specific order in the performance of some chords is pleasant to me; I care more about providing a simple yet robust method of describing any possible succession of harmonies to make easierО©╫exploring, memorizing and communicating them, allowing also the production of faultless harmony descriptions by computer applications which is obstructed by theories.

Being also radical I would say that a minimum requirement today is to provide isomorphic support to music; which is missing in your scientific coloring of note heads.

О©╫

О©╫Enrique.

[Joseph Austin]

From the Biney-Smith Crayola box:

start with the basic six: red orange yellow blue green violet

then add mixtures of adjacent colors:

red 

red-orange

orange

yellow-orange

yellow 

yellow-green

green

blue-green

blue

blue-violet

violet

red-violet

On Dec 17, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ivaylo Naydenov wrote:

Would someone mind to give us 12 different colors (no light dark variations please, cause the 12-tones are unique so the colors should be):
I am suggesting: white (paper or closed empty circle on a screen or paper), black... well filled or contoured... you lost me here.
Blue, green, yellow, red, orange... brown maybe... violet magenta... erm-m what else? Arguably 9 till here... arguably 3 to go?

Let's consider them fited. So... how to write for example a Do major chord in a melodic inversion for example? Show it as simple as possible please. :)

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Those
red-orange
blue-green
and so on
are a potential misleadings when printed or whatever the color-staff should be. Therefore colors are not good for notation. ;)

2011/2/17 Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com>

[Joseph Austin]

Actually, I didn't mean to post that message yet, but since I did, let me explain:

When you asked for 12 colors, it reminded me of a color-wheel or color-clock that I saw displayed at a Children's Museum,

which used these colors and color-names.

These are all colors that I'm familiar with from my childhood crayons. I don't know if crayon sets today still use those names and colors,

but I'm assuming if they're good enough for a Children's Museum display, then most children would be able to distinguish them.

Once I tried to create my own 12-color system based on the RGB computer colors:  red yellow green cyan blue magenta.

I discovered that I had more difficulty distinguishing intermediate colors at the green-blue end of the spectrum.

This suggests that our color perception (like our pitch perception?) is sensitive to the LOGARITHM of the frequency,

there being more distinguishable hues at the long wavelength red end than at the blue end.

That's an "inconvenient truth" for me, being an IT expert.

But it shouldn't be a practical problem to come up with 12 distinguishable colors, especially if the color key is printed/displayed along with the score.

As I recall, Mark said his students had no problem distinguishing his 12 colors. QED.

Joe Austin

DrTechDaddy.com

[where you can see my Tonnetz-based suggestion] 

Music is Poetry; why print it like prose?

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Yeah, you are right. I came up with at least 9 easy distinguishable. Still 3 left to go... any help is appreciated.
It is all about the tones that mix each other in chords, scales, inversions... that is the problem if a green-blue cannot be distinguished from blue-green or whatever it is.

[Ken Rushton]

Consider using just 6 colors with a black or white mark to distinquish
the flats/sharps?
There just aren't that many distinct colors in our language, and hence
in our thinking.
Ken.

[Ivaylo Naydenov]

Ok, but there is one big problem. I think flats and sharps are obsolete and derived form the special case of the conventional piano keyboard thus unuseful for me.