Are you getting different password presentations on Firefox for Google Gmail?

[Jonas S Schneider]

Are you getting different password presentations on Firefox for Google
Gmail?

Two things happened in about the same time frame so I just want to ask if
you've had the same experience.

1. Google changed the way they do logins on the web (somehow)
2. I changed to a different browsers on WinXP (for support)

Now, for the past two weeks or so, it takes a minimum of two but up to a
half dozen attempts at logging into Google Gmail (mail.google.com) because
the first password presentation never pops up a form for the password.
http://i.cubeupload.com/uaVxHy.gif

If I try again, changing nothing other than killing and restarting the same
browser, it works on the second, maybe third, maybe fourth time.
http://i.cubeupload.com/5gaGEm.gif

Notice the two presentations are different.

The one that fails every time to present a password field is the new one.
The old one, which eventually pops up, works just fine.

Just me?
Or you too on Firefox?

[Paul in Houston, TX]

Both FB login screen versions work for me.
Have not found any particular reason for versions popping up.
They seem to be random.

[Good Guy]

Reply posted on Windows 7 NG as you multi-posted the same question in 3 different NGs.  this one is moderated so my messages don't appear all the time.

--

With over 500 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

[VanguardLH]

I always get the 2nd login screen for which you provided a pic (the
5gaGEm.gif image). I'm always using gmail.com to get to the login page.

Look at the URLs in your pics. They have the same host and domain but
the path portion differs. From your 1st pic (the login screen that I've
never seen):

/signin/v2/sl/pwd?<args>

>From your 2nd pic (the login screen that I see):

/ServiceLogin?service=mail&<moreArgs>

You are arriving at Gmail using different routes.

Google changed from presenting one web page with both username and
password input fields to presenting one web page for username and then
moving to another web page for the password. It's password manager
wasn't designed for that scheme. I've hit other sites using 2 separate
web pages, one for username and another for password, that resulted in
Firefox (and Google Chrome) not being to login. They can only remember
and prefill the login credentials on one screen.

It's not only web browser's password managers that have gotten screwed
with the multi-page approach to logging in. Several password managers
also won't work with this multi-page login scheme. If you use the same
username at every site but a different password at each one then see if
NOT having the web browser remember the username input page and only
remembering the password input page lets you use their password manager.
Only the second page will be remembered for the password but then you
don't need the web browser remembering the first page which is your
reused username.

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Tue, 02 May 2017 21:01:15 -0500, "Paul in Houston, TX"
<Pa...@Houston.Texas> wrote:

> Both FB login screen versions work for me.
> Have not found any particular reason for versions popping up.
> They seem to be random.

Thank you for helping out because I have been working this myself for a
week to no avail.

I even posted multiple help requests to Google documentation, but I haven't
seen any change in their documentation yet.

I should mention that my browsers are always set up to forget everything
possible between browser invocations (using just the standard browser
settings for that purpose) and that I always come up in incognito mode.

To be clear in what you're telling me, is it only me who sees the two
different presentations pop up (seemingly randomly) with nothing else
changing between invocations of the browser?

[EDIT: Actually, I just realized, since I had deleted Firefox when I found
out the lack of WinXP support - that I didn't change the shortcut to start
as incognito ... so I will test that in a moment).
FROM Target: c:\proggies\browsers\firefox\firefox.exe
TO Target: c:\proggies\browsers\firefox\firefox.exe --incognito

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:24:37 -0500, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

> If you use the same
> username at every site but a different password at each one then see if
> NOT having the web browser remember the username input page and only
> remembering the password input page lets you use their password manager.

All my browsers have *always* been set up to forget everything possible
between sessions, from the moment they were installed (and they were all
installed offline with the Ethernet connector unplugged to prevent myriad
phoning home on the first invocation after installation and prior to that
initial setup).

> You are arriving at Gmail using different routes.

Thank you for that suggestion to present the complete URL and more complete
browser information for my WinXP SP3 setup.

The whole thing started when two things happened relatively concurrently.
* Firefox is no longer going to be supported so I switched browsers
* Google apparently changed the login setup at about the same time

Here are some debugging results based on your suggestions.
1. I brought up a WinXP supported browser (SRWare Iron).
2. I typed mail.google.com
3. I looked at the URLs which are auto-whatever created (by Google?).

This is the auto-google-created URL that fails to allow a password:
https://accounts.google.com/signin/v2/identifier?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin
Here is an old screenshot showing what it looks like when you try:
http://i.cubeupload.com/uaVxHy.gif

This is the google-auto-created URL that allows the password:
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https://mail.google.com/mail/&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1#identifier
This is an old screenshot (from the previous post) which shows the GUI:
http://i.cubeupload.com/5gaGEm.gif

Notice that in both cases, I never even put in the email ID (so it has
nothing to do with the email account itself).

Also notice everything remained exactly the same, same computer, same
browser, same IP address, same background software, same operating system
(WinXP SP3), same everything.

The only thing that changed between those two sessions was I killed the
browser and restarted.

Can anyone guess as to what is going on here?
Am I the only one with this problem?

It doesn't seem to happen with (soon to be unsupported Firefox
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https://mail.google.com/mail/&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1#identifie

Here is the progression with firefox:
1. Bring up Firefox (already set to clear-all upon closing)
http://i.cubeupload.com/0P67F4.gif
2. Type mail.google.com
http://i.cubeupload.com/Bb4b40.gif
3. That results in a long URL
http://i.cubeupload.com/s0cRy8.gif
4. Which allows a password entry
http://i.cubeupload.com/eWouUh.gif

Firefox "seems" to work every time, but it's no longer supported, so,
moving forward, I don't know what to do.

Does anyone else see this problem?
Does anyone know *why* this problem exists?

Or, is it just me?

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Wed, 3 May 2017 03:33:15 +0100, Good Guy <hello...@example.com>
wrote:

> Reply posted on Windows 7 NG as you multi-posted the same question in 3
> different NGs. this one is moderated so my messages don't appear all
> the time.

Bear in mind that this mozilla "group" is NOT a bona-fide Usenet newsgroup,
which I know all the old timers know.

So, as stated, it is *impossible* to reliably cross post correctly to
*both* the WindowsXP Usenet newsgroup and to this Mozilla "group", since
the news servers must (by necessity) be *different*.

Therefore, the *only* proper way to reach both "groups" (one being a Usenet
newsgroup, the other only sporadically and unreliably served by Usenet nntp
servers) is to "multi post".

There is no other way around that problem, which isn't a Usenet problem as
much as it's a problem that this mozilla "group" isn't really "on" the
general "Usenet" served by general Usenet news servers.

What would be nice is if anyone knows of a newsgroup that expressly handles
this problem, which is a combination of:
a. Windows XP (which Firefox is dropping support of)
b. Chrome-like browsers (which are supported on WinXP)
c. Firefox (which has the problem too)
d. Google Gmail (in and of itself)

Given this problem involves Gmail, Windows, Firefox, and other browsers,
what would *you* suggest is the one proper newsgroup that handles all of
that at the same time?

Anyway, back on topic... to prove whether this problem happens on Firefix,
which I had deleted when news of the lack of WinXP support came about, I
re-installed Firefox and set it up (with the Ethernet cable disconnected)
to delete everything upon closing.

The problem that I reported for Chrome-like browsers *also* happens on
Firefox, only to a lesser extent.

1. Here is a screenshot with Firefox without it happening:
http://i.cubeupload.com/C6FLvG.gif
2. Here is a screenshot with Firefox with it happening:
http://i.cubeupload.com/AfuJ4W.gif

Here is what Firefox looks like about 4 or 5 out of a half dozen times when
open in "new private window" mode to the mail.google.com URL (which gets
generated into this URL):
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https://mail.google.com/mail/&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1#identifier

Here is what Firefox looks like about 1 in a handful of times when open in
"new private window" mode to the mail.google.com URL (which gets generated
into this URL):
https://accounts.google.com/signin/v2/identifier?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin

Does anyone know, in this Mozilla newsgroup, what in Firefox/Google/WinXP
is causing the password request to never be asked for in one out of a half
dozen Firefox invocations to mail.google.com?

[Tomos Davies]

In <news:mailman.495.1493775123...@lists.mozilla.org>,
Jonas S Schneider suggested:

> Notice the two presentations are different.
>
> The one that fails every time to present a password field is the new one.
> The old one, which eventually pops up, works just fine.
>
> Just me?
> Or you too on Firefox?

I made sure Firefox was newly installed and up to date and now I can
reproduce th4e problem even more frequently, at about a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of
invocations (changing nothing in between - and not even logging into Google
for example).

Firefox version 52.0.2 (32-bit) on Windows XP SP3:
http://i.cubeupload.com/XhEvOe.gif

1. Bad Firefox invocation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/nMaisZ.gif

https://accounts.google.com/signin/v2/identifier?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin


2. Good Firefox invocation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jE4T5q.gif

https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https://mail.google.com/mail/&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1#identifier

What is going on?

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Wed, 03 May 2017 11:32:25 -0500, Jonas S Schneider
<Jonas123S...@arcor.de> wrote:

> Does anyone know *why* this problem exists?

I think I found a workaround.

If I turn off Javascript, I always get the old Gmail login interface.
https://accounts.google.com/signin/v1/lookup

Then I turn on Javascript, and Gmail works just fine.

So the workaround is to temporarily turn off Javascript until after I log
in to Gmail.

[Jonas S Schneider]

What has been working perfectly is the following workaround:

1. Start the browser
2. Turn off Javascript
3. Go to mail.google.com
4. Turn on Javascript
5. Enter your login
6. Enter your password
7. Click on the "try again" when it says:
JavaScript must be enabled in order for you to use Gmail
in standard view. However, it seems JavaScript is either
disabled or not supported by your browser. To use standard
view, enable JavaScript by changing your browser options,
then try again.
To use Gmail's basic HTML view, which does not require
JavaScript, click here.

Turning off Javascript just before being presented with the login works
100% of the time to avoid the new interface which is buggy and which
doesn't allow you to log in.

You can turn Javascript back on (or leave it off) at any time.
The only time it needs to be turned off is when Google is presenting you
with the sign-in page.

[Paul in Houston, TX]

Interesting. Thanks Jonas.

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Tue, 09 May 2017 22:07:36 -0500, "Paul in Houston, TX"
<Pa...@Houston.Texas> wrote:

>> You can turn Javascript back on (or leave it off) at any time.
>> The only time it needs to be turned off is when Google is presenting you
>> with the sign-in page.
>
> Interesting. Thanks Jonas.

I wish I *understood* why this works, but I'm just happy that it works.

Apparently, Google is doing *something* with Javascript when they present
their new interface that they didn't do when they presented their old
interface.

What are they doing differently on the new login presentation?
I don't know.

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Wed, 10 May 2017 22:29:44 -0500, Jonas S Schneider
<Jonas123S...@arcor.de> wrote:

> I wish I *understood* why this works, but I'm just happy that it works.

Just to update if others want to benefit from what I've learned.

Here's a setup that works as efficiently as I can make it so far:

0. Add a start tab which opens up the java customization menu
1. Start the browser & turn off javascript
2. Go to mail.google.com (which gives you the old Gmail interface)
3. Immediately turn on javascript (before you enter the username)
4. Enter your username & password ... and you're back in business.

Note this method skips the java challenge from Google that the previous
suggestion encounters. Both work. This is a step or two shorter.

[Jonas S Schneider]

Since I log into google many times a day, I found a *much easier* way.

When I type "mail.google.com" in my browser, if the new challenge comes up,
I simply click on my HOME button, which is now set to:
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false&ltmpl=default&scc=1&ss=1&osid=1&emr=1#identifier

That URL gets me the old login interface, which works with or without
Javascript running!

If someone can let me know what the magic is in that URL, I'd love to know.

The URL that does NOT work is:
https://accounts.google.com/signin/v2/identifier?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Sat, 13 May 2017 12:18:06 -0500, Jonas S Schneider
<Jonas123S...@arcor.de> wrote:
On the Windows newsgroups, we have some new information but still not an
explanation of what is going on.

But it might have something to do with cookies.

> https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false&ltmpl=default&scc=1&ss=1&osid=1&emr=1

I get the same if I enter mail.google.com into Firefox/Linux, with no
cookies or temp files.
Only the very end is different than yours. (#identifier)
I inserted the >space to make the comparison easy.

>
> That URL gets me the old login interface, which works with or without
> Javascript running!
>
> If someone can let me know what the magic is in that URL, I'd love to know.
>
> The URL that does NOT work is:
> https://accounts.google.com/signin/v2/identifier?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin

> https://accounts.google.com/signin/v2/identifier?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&ss=1&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&emr=1&osid=1&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin

I get the same under the same conditions, *without* clearing cookies/temp
files.
Both test are with javascript off(I always block it).
Maybe this will tell you something:
https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7338427?visit_id=0-636302991919466271-3714042484&p=signin_newlook&rd=1

--
SpringSprangSprung

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:24:37 -0500, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>>From your 2nd pic (the login screen that I see):
>
> /ServiceLogin?service=mail&<moreArgs>
>
> You are arriving at Gmail using different routes.
>
> Google changed from presenting one web page with both username and
> password input fields to presenting one web page for username and then
> moving to another web page for the password. It's password manager
> wasn't designed for that scheme.

Working backword from the URL, I tested the following with Javascript on:
----- These brought up the old (working) login/password presentation:
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false&ltmpl=default&scc=1&ss=1&osid=1&emr=1
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false&ltmpl=default&scc=1&ss=1&osid=1
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false&ltmpl=default&scc=1&ss=1
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false&ltmpl=default
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1
----- These brought up the new (broken) login/password presentation:
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin
https://accounts.google.com

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message
<mailman.996.1494736889...@lists.mozilla.org>, Jonas

S Schneider <Jonas123S...@arcor.de> writes:
>On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:24:37 -0500, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>>From your 2nd pic (the login screen that I see):
>> /ServiceLogin?service=mail&<moreArgs>
>> You are arriving at Gmail using different routes.
>> Google changed from presenting one web page with both username and
>> password input fields to presenting one web page for username and then
>> moving to another web page for the password. It's password manager
>> wasn't designed for that scheme.
>
>Working backword from the URL, I tested the following with Javascript on:
> ----- These brought up the old (working) login/password presentation:
>https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.goo
>gle.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1&service=mail&rm=false&ltmpl=defau
>lt&scc=1&ss=1&osid=1&emr=1

[snipped ones removing one parameter at a time]
>https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.goo

>gle.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1&nojavascript=1

> ----- These brought up the new (broken) login/password presentation:
>https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.goo
>gle.com%2Fmail%2F&rip=1

[snipped again]

>https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com
>https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin
>https://accounts.google.com

So it looks like "nojavascript=1" is the parameter that made it work.
Whether that's a parameter to the first URL, i. e.
https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin, or to the second, i. e.
https://mail.google.com/mail/, my URL knowledge is insufficient to tell
(and I don't have a google account, or if I do [my picture _does_ appear
on YouTube pages] I'm getting in automatically, so can't test).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. -Niels Bohr, physicist
(1885-1962)

[Jonas S Schneider]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 12:12:10 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:

> So it looks like "nojavascript=1" is the parameter that made it work.
> Whether that's a parameter to the first URL, i. e.
> https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin, or to the second, i. e.
> https://mail.google.com/mail/, my URL knowledge is insufficient to tell
> (and I don't have a google account, or if I do [my picture _does_ appear
> on YouTube pages] I'm getting in automatically, so can't test).

Yes. I agree. The "nojavascript" set to "yes" (i.e., 1) is the only thing
different in those two URLs.

So I can confirm two things:
1. If I actually turn off javascript in the browser, then I get the old
login page, which works every time. If I turn on javascript in the browser,
I often get the new login page, which fails every time, but randomly,
Google presents the old login page, which then works every time.

2. Whether I have javascript turned on or off, if I use the URL that "says"
javascript is turned off, then I get the old page every time.

So, the *simplest* workaround is to just press the HOME button which will
present the "nojavascript=1" to Google Gmail.

Whatever Google changed between the old presentation and the new, it won't
work but we can get the old interface if Google thinks javascript is turned
off.

[Jonas S Schneider]

The strangest thing happened by accident.

I was experimenting with UserAgent strings, and wouldn't you know it.
For the past couple of days, I haven't yet gotten the new (bad) password
presentation from Google.

You know what User Agent solved the problem?
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:33.0) Gecko/20120101 Firefox/33.0

When I use *that* user agent, I always get the *old* Gmail login
presentation (which always works).

Even when I'm using Chrome!