Is anyone watching the general-owner mailbox (and has anyone else received email from Avas Flowers)?

[Mark Rousell]

I've been receiving emails from a company called Avas Flowers who, it
would seem, cannot remove themselves from the gen...@lists.mozilla.org
list. Has anyone else received emails from them? (I told them how to
unsubscribe themselves but they tell me that they were unable to do this
successfully).

I've tried to contact the list owner via genera...@lists.mozilla.org
but have received no response. Who is supposed to be watching the mailbox?

Someone somewhere must be able to remove incorrectly subscribed members
from the list.

Although this list/group is not moderated, I have emailed Chris Ilias in
case he knows who should be tending the general-owner mailbox.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

I've posted a bug about this issue (non-monitored owner mailbox). I'll
provide a follow-up here when I receive a response.

--
Mark Rousell

[Brian]

On 09/02/2018 10:05 AM, Mark Rousell wrote:
> I've been receiving emails from a company called Avas Flowers who, it
> would seem, cannot remove themselves from the gen...@lists.mozilla.org
> list. Has anyone else received emails from them? (I told them how to
> unsubscribe themselves but they tell me that they were unable to do this
> successfully).
>

Yes, I received a response from them about a posting I made. They
seemed to get quite annoyed when I told them that I had no power to
remove them. No doubt I'll be getting another reply from them because
of this posting...


Brian.

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 19:48, Brian wrote:
> Yes, I received a response from them about a posting I made. They
> seemed to get quite annoyed when I told them that I had no power to
> remove them. No doubt I'll be getting another reply from them because
> of this posting...

I'm glad it's not just me who is receiving them.

I'm tempted to ask to speak to their IT support so that I can engage in
a more technically proficient conversation but I really don't want to do
that unless I can actually do something practical from this end, and
that's a job for whoever is the list owner.

Hopefully someone will respond to the bug I posted on
bugzilla.mozilla.org and it will be sorted something out.


--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 20:01, Mark Rousell wrote:
> Hopefully someone will respond to the bug I posted on
> bugzilla.mozilla.org and it will be sorted something out.

s/it will be sorted something out/it will be sorted out/


--
Mark Rousell

[David E. Ross]

Contact their hosting service, determined through WhoIs. Report them as
spamming a technical distribution list.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com>

Too often, Twitter is a source of verbal vomit. Examples include Donald
Trump, Roseanne Barr, and Elon Musk.

[David E. Ross]

When you cite a bug in bugzilla.mozilla.org, please at least give us the
bug number. Preferably, also give us the link to the bug report. I
tried searching for your bug report, but I could not find it.

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 20:20, David E. Ross wrote:
> Contact their hosting service, determined through WhoIs. Report them as
> spamming a technical distribution list.

(a) They are not sending to the list at all.
(b) They are emailing some list members directly and (annoying though it
is) it's not spam by any reasonable definition.
(c) They appear to be confused.
(d) And, right now, they could not unreasonably claim that the list is
spamming them. (They'd be incorrect but I could understand why they
might see it this way).

So I won't be telling their hosting service that they are spamming
because they're not. They simply need to be removed from the list and
they do seem to be able to do it themselves.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 20:29, David E. Ross wrote:
> When you cite a bug in bugzilla.mozilla.org, please at least give us the
> bug number. Preferably, also give us the link to the bug report. I
> tried searching for your bug report, but I could not find it.

Yup, sorry about that. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1488070

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 20:33, Mark Rousell wrote:
> They simply need to be removed from the list and they do seem to be
> able to do it themselves.

s/they do seem to be able to do it themselves/they do not seem to be
able to do it themselves/



--
Mark Rousell

[Brian]

On 09/02/2018 03:20 PM, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 9/2/2018 7:05 AM, Mark Rousell wrote:
>> I've been receiving emails from a company called Avas Flowers who, it
>> would seem, cannot remove themselves from the gen...@lists.mozilla.org
>> list. Has anyone else received emails from them? (I told them how to
>> unsubscribe themselves but they tell me that they were unable to do this
>> successfully).
>>
>> I've tried to contact the list owner via genera...@lists.mozilla.org
>> but have received no response. Who is supposed to be watching the mailbox?
>>
>> Someone somewhere must be able to remove incorrectly subscribed members
>> from the list.
>>
>> Although this list/group is not moderated, I have emailed Chris Ilias in
>> case he knows who should be tending the general-owner mailbox.
>>
>
> Contact their hosting service, determined through WhoIs. Report them as
> spamming a technical distribution list.
>

Christ, you ARE a bundle of laughs, aren't you? :(

For the record, what happened with me is that I posted to one of the
lists (I think it was the wishlist, but I'm not certain) and Avas sent
me an e-mail acknowledging my e-mail, and then a second e-mail saying
that they didn't understand the question I was asking them. They then
sent a perfectly polite third message asking (after I'd tried to
explain what was happening) that I remove them from the list, and they
got a bit upset when I told them that *I* couldn't do that.

As far as I know, they've not posted to the list themselves, they just
respond privately to messages that they receive from the list. They
claimed to have no idea how their address could have been subscribed
in the first place.


Brian.

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 21:51, Brian wrote:
> For the record, what happened with me is that I posted to one of the
> lists (I think it was the wishlist, but I'm not certain) and Avas sent
> me an e-mail acknowledging my e-mail

That's interesting. So it's not just this list.

I wonder if they might have been signed up somehow as a hoax (not them
hoaxing but someone hoaxing them) or someone is forwarding the list to
them to annoy them.


--
Mark Rousell

[😉 Good Guy 😉]

On 02/09/2018 20:33, Mark Rousell wrote:

(b) They are emailing some list members directly and (annoying though it
is) it's not spam by any reasonable definition.

Why use the list when you can use a NewsReader such as Thunderbird and subscribe/create account  for these lists and post whatever you like using a fake eMail (mark.r...@invalid.invalid).

<news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.general>
<news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.firefox>
<news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.thunderbird>
<news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.test>

Alternatively create a filter for their eMail and send them rude eMails to provoke them.  Are they EU based companies?  If so ask them if they they are not complying with General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).  Also warn them if they don't stop sending you any material that you haven't asked for then you will have no option but to start legal proceedings.  This should put them in their right place.

--

With over 950 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 22:02, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:
> Why use the list when you can use a NewsReader such as Thunderbird and
> subscribe/create account for these lists and post whatever you like
> using a fake eMail (mark.r...@invalid.invalid).

Because:
(a) Thunderbird's NNTP handling is not exactly as I would prefer it.
Email works better for me. (In principle I'd prefer NNTP but just not
with Thunderbird's NNTP handling as it stands).
(b) And I am happy to be contactable off-list.

> Alternatively create a filter for their eMail and send them rude
> eMails to provoke them.

I try to be a little more professional and helpful than that.

> Are they EU based companies? If so ask them if they they are not
> complying with General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).

They are US based but, regardless of their location, they are not
breaching GDPR.

(As a vastly off-topic aside, a US based business can breach GDPR as
easily as an EU one. GDPR is expressly extra-territorial in its scope.
How that would be enforced by EU enforcement agencies if the
non-compliant business is in a non-EU country without a mutual
law-enforcement treaty with an EU country or the EU itself I don't know,
but plenty of US content businesses (e.g. newspapers) are nevertheless
worried enough to block EU IP addresses entirely so as not to have to
deal with EU citizens. Of course, if the business has any presence
within the EU then it is pretty much on the hook with the EU for any
breaches worldwide).

> Also warn them if they don't stop sending you any material that you
> haven't asked for then you will have no option but to start legal
> proceedings. This should put them in their right place.

As I mentioned to David E. Ross, they are in fact the ones receiving
material they haven't asked for. Right now, this list is effectively
spamming them(!). They are confused, don't know exactly what is
happening, and need assistance with getting themselves removed from the
list.

I am glad to say that, as a result of the bug I posted, they are now
getting that help.


--
Mark Rousell

[Brian]

On 09/02/2018 05:02 PM, Mark Rousell wrote:
> On 02/09/2018 21:51, Brian wrote:
>> For the record, what happened with me is that I posted to one of the
>> lists (I think it was the wishlist, but I'm not certain) and Avas sent
>> me an e-mail acknowledging my e-mail
>
> That's interesting. So it's not just this list.
>

I checked. It was definitely the wishlist.

> I wonder if they might have been signed up somehow as a hoax (not them
> hoaxing but someone hoaxing them) or someone is forwarding the list to
> them to annoy them.
>
>

Brian.

[Brian]

On 09/02/2018 05:02 PM, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:
> On 02/09/2018 20:33, Mark Rousell wrote:
>>
>> (b) They are emailing some list members directly and (annoying
>> though it
>> is) it's not spam by any reasonable definition.
>
> Why use the list when you can use a NewsReader such as Thunderbird and
> subscribe/create account  for these lists and post whatever you like
> using a fake eMail (mark.r...@invalid.invalid).
>
> <news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.general>
> <news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.firefox>
> <news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.thunderbird>
> <news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.test>
> Alternatively create a filter for their eMail and send them rude
> eMails to provoke them.  Are they EU based companies?  If so ask them
> if they they are not complying with General Data Protection Regulation
> (GDPR).  Also warn them if they don't stop sending you any material
> that you haven't asked for then you will have no option but to start
> legal proceedings.  This should put them in their right place.
>

I'm surprised to hear you'd bother m'learned friends over something
like this. Surely that nice Mr. Trump has a spare cruise missile he'd
loan you?

Brian.

>

[Mark Rousell]

On 02/09/2018 23:08, Brian wrote:
> On 09/02/2018 05:02 PM, Mark Rousell wrote:
>> On 02/09/2018 21:51, Brian wrote:
>>> For the record, what happened with me is that I posted to one of the
>>> lists (I think it was the wishlist, but I'm not certain) and Avas sent
>>> me an e-mail acknowledging my e-mail
>> That's interesting. So it's not just this list.
>>
> I checked. It was definitely the wishlist.

Thanks.

--
Mark Rousell

[Daniel]

I don't do the list, I do NNTP instead, but I thought there were
instructions at the bottom of each list e-mail explaining how to
un-subscribe from the lists.

--
Daniel

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
SeaMonkey/2.49.1 Build identifier: 20171016030418

User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
SeaMonkey/2.49.1 Build identifier: 20171015235623

[WaltS48]

On 9/3/18 4:49 AM, Daniel wrote:
> Mark Rousell wrote on 3/09/2018 12:05 AM:
>> I've been receiving emails from a company called Avas Flowers who, it
>> would seem, cannot remove themselves from the gen...@lists.mozilla.org
>> list. Has anyone else received emails from them? (I told them how to
>> unsubscribe themselves but they tell me that they were unable to do this
>> successfully).
>>
>> I've tried to contact the list owner via genera...@lists.mozilla.org
>> but have received no response. Who is supposed to be watching the
>> mailbox?
>>
>> Someone somewhere must be able to remove incorrectly subscribed members
>> from the list.
>>
>> Although this list/group is not moderated, I have emailed Chris Ilias in
>> case he knows who should be tending the general-owner mailbox.
>>
> I don't do the list, I do NNTP instead, but I thought there were
> instructions at the bottom of each list e-mail explaining how to
> un-subscribe from the lists.
>

There should be, but they should have also bookmarked the web page where
they signed up.

I'm subscribed to four Mozilla mailing lists. Each one has a "member
options login page" where you can enter your email address and password,
click the Unsubscribe button and, "By clicking on the Unsubscribe
button, a confirmation message will be emailed to you. This message will
have a link that you should click on to complete the removal process
(you can also confirm by email; see the instructions in the confirmation
message)."

--
CPU: 3.2 Ghz AMD Athlon(tm) II X3 455 Processor
RAM: 8 GiB
Graphics: GeForce GT 630/PCIe/SSE2
OS: Ubuntu Linux 18.04LTS - Gnome Desktop

[Brian]

In the exchanges I had with Avas Flowers, they were adamant that they
did NOT sign up for the lists, they just suddenly began receiving the
posts.

> I'm subscribed to four Mozilla mailing lists. Each one has a "member
> options login page" where you can enter your email address and
> password, click the Unsubscribe button and, "By clicking on the
> Unsubscribe button, a confirmation message will be emailed to you.
> This message will have a link that you should click on to complete the
> removal process (you can also confirm by email; see the instructions
> in the confirmation message)."
>

Apparently this didn't work (at least, I told them to try it). I
suspect Mark may have got the answer, that someone is/was forwarding
them list messages maliciously. Somebody else will have to help them
if so, they got quite agitated with me when I told them I had no power
to remove them from the list, and I'm afraid I've dumped their address
into my 'nuke on sight' address book.

Brian.

[WaltS48]

Why do they have a post in this group dated Jan 3rd if they didn't sign up?

<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.general/zlrJ0-ZBLPk/PmrsR8U_AgAJ>

[Brian]

I'm only reporting what they told me in the exchange I had with them.
They were most emphatic about not having signed up. Possibly a
previous employee is to blame?

If they've been signed up continuously since Jan 3rd, then they do
seem to have taken an extraordinarily long time to start complaining
about it!


Brian.

[Brian]

On 09/03/2018 01:37 PM, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:

> On 03/09/2018 15:53, Brian wrote:
>> I'm only reporting what they told me in the exchange I had with them.
>> They were most emphatic about not having signed up. Possibly a
>> previous employee is to blame?
>>
>

> Perhaps you can send them this link to unsubscribe:
>
> <https://lists.mozilla.org/options/general>
>
> I don't have their contact eMail so you can do it and save us the
> hassle to filter their spam.  you said you had a contact with them in
> the past so please do it.
>

Done. Let's see whether it sorts the problem. Their address is
c...@avasflowers.com, BTW.


Brian.

[Wolf K]

I've seen emails from them, I think they've been hacked or hi-jacked.
I've put them in a filter.

--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
It's called an "opinion" because it's not a fact.

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 09:49, Daniel wrote:
> I thought there were instructions at the bottom of each list e-mail
> explaining how to un-subscribe from the lists.

They are not subscribed under the address they thought they were (and
they had no idea how they got signed up). The situation is now in hand.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

Just a quick update. This is now in hand thanks to Dave Miller of
Mozilla. Action is being taken.

On 02/09/2018 15:05, Mark Rousell wrote:
> I've been receiving emails from a company called Avas Flowers who, it
> would seem, cannot remove themselves from the gen...@lists.mozilla.org
> list. Has anyone else received emails from them? (I told them how to
> unsubscribe themselves but they tell me that they were unable to do this
> successfully).
>
> I've tried to contact the list owner via genera...@lists.mozilla.org
> but have received no response. Who is supposed to be watching the mailbox?
>
> Someone somewhere must be able to remove incorrectly subscribed members
> from the list.
>
> Although this list/group is not moderated, I have emailed Chris Ilias in
> case he knows who should be tending the general-owner mailbox.
>

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 15:20, Brian wrote:
> Apparently this didn't work (at least, I told them to try it). I
> suspect Mark may have got the answer, that someone is/was forwarding
> them list messages maliciously.

This is a possibility. It fits best with the information I have so far,
although simple incompetence or former employees may be just as valid
answers.

We'll see how things work out.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 18:37, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:
> On 03/09/2018 15:53, Brian wrote:

>> I'm only reporting what they told me in the exchange I had with them.
>> They were most emphatic about not having signed up. Possibly a
>> previous employee is to blame?
>>
>

> Perhaps you can send them this link to unsubscribe:
>
> <https://lists.mozilla.org/options/general>

As per my other comments, this has already been tried (by me) and it
won't help them.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 15:34, WaltS48 wrote:
>
> Why do they have a post in this group dated Jan 3rd if they didn't
> sign up?
>
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.general/zlrJ0-ZBLPk/PmrsR8U_AgAJ>
>

The post of theirs you link to only proves that they were receiving
messages from the list and that their CRM system sent out an auto-reply.
It does NOT show that they knowingly or willingly signed up to the list.

It would seem that they got on the list somehow but they don't know how
or (so far) with what subscribed address. This is why they can't
unsubscribe themselves using the web interface. As I mentioned, this is
now in hand and investigations are under way to find out the address
they are subscribed with.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 17:37, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:
> On 03/09/2018 15:34, WaltS48 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>

>> Why do they have a post in this group dated Jan 3rd if they didn't
>> sign up?
>>
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.general/zlrJ0-ZBLPk/PmrsR8U_AgAJ>
>>
>>
>

> Yes it proves conclusively that they must have subscribed to the list.

No, it proves only that they are subscribed to the list but that has
never been in doubt. That's how they are getting the messages, of course.

The problem is that they don't know how they signed up or with what
address. I now know that they are definitely *not* signed up with their
customer service email address from which some of us have received
emails. Investigations are under way to find out their actual subscribed
email address and to then remove it from the list.

The cause of this could be good old incompetence or perhaps malicious
intent by someone. It doesn't really matter. It only matters that their
subscribed address is found and then removed and, to repeat once more,
this is under way.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

Note also that I suspect that any further emails to them at this stage
are unlikely to help. Such emails are only likely to confuse them further.


--
Mark Rousell

[😉 Good Guy 😉]

On 03/09/2018 21:15, Mark Rousell wrote:

The post of theirs you link to only proves that they were receiving
messages from the list and that their CRM system sent out an auto-reply.
It does NOT show that they knowingly or willingly signed up to the list.

Of course it proves that they had an account.  Lists won't post anything unless you are registered.  Even if you are just replying to something like  "AutoResponder".

All Tech companies are going for Forum based Customer Support because they can control what is posted and by whom.  Anonymous posting is gone for ever.  We are fortunate that we have NNTP for Mozilla Products but these are not going to last indefinitely.

It would seem that they got on the list somehow but they don't know how
or (so far) with what subscribed address. This is why they can't
unsubscribe themselves using the web interface. As I mentioned, this is
now in hand and investigations are under way to find out the address
they are subscribed with.

--

[WaltS48]

On 9/3/18 4:19 PM, Mark Rousell wrote:
> It only matters that their
> subscribed address is found and then removed and, to repeat once more,
> this is under way.

I have a couple list subscriptions I know I signed up for but the email
address is no longer valid and I can't Unsubscribe. Don't get any emails
from those lists, so it doesn't matter.

[😉 Good Guy 😉]

On 03/09/2018 21:19, Mark Rousell wrote:

The problem is that they don't know how they signed up or with what
address. 

This is plain silly.  They are subscribed with the address that is receiving the posts.  Mozilla Lists will never allow you to register with one address and get posts on other.  It just doesn't happen on modern Forums.

The address they have used is something like this:

Return-Path: <ro...@avas6.avasflowers.com>

Now they should know what "ro..." is or whose eMail account (i.e. which employees eMail account) is that.    Somebody in their Organization has or had an eMail account like:  <ro...@avas6.avasflowers.com>

This guy Miller you are dealing with might be able to search for that registrant and unsubscribe him. 

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 21:26, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:
> On 03/09/2018 21:15, Mark Rousell wrote:
>> The post of theirs you link to only proves that they were receiving
>> messages from the list and that their CRM system sent out an auto-reply.
>> It does NOT show that they knowingly or willingly signed up to the list.
>
> Of course it proves that they had an account. Lists won't post
> anything unless you are registered. Even if you are just replying to
> something like "AutoResponder".

Yes, clearly they were and are signed up with an account (as I've said
more than once) because they are receiving emails from the list but that
still doesn't tell us how they got signed up or on what address at present.

Back in January they were signed up with the From address on the post of
theirs you linked to (I have the post in my local archive and have the
address) but that doesn't mean they are still subscribed on that address.

As I said, the matter is now in hand with the person who can take the
necessary action

We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 21:35, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:
> This is plain silly. They are subscribed with the address that is
> receiving the posts. Mozilla Lists will never allow you to register
> with one address and get posts on other. It just doesn't happen on
> modern Forums.
>
> The address they have used is something like this:
>
> Return-Path: <ro...@avas6.avasflowers.com>
>
> Now they should know what "ro..." is or whose eMail account (i.e.
> which employees eMail account) is that. Somebody in their
> Organization has or had an eMail account like:
> <ro...@avas6.avasflowers.com>

The hidden address there is "ro...@avas6.avasflowers.com". (I have it in
my local archive).

> This guy Miller you are dealing with might be able to search for that
> registrant and unsubscribe him.

As I said, the matter is in hand with him.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 03/09/2018 21:52, Mark Rousell wrote:
> The hidden address there is "ro...@avas6.avasflowers.com". (I have it
> in my local archive).

I should add that avas6.avasflowers.com has no MX record so they aren't
receiving email there at present.

--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

Looks like this is finally fixed. They've been removed from the mail list.

Thanks for Dave Miller for his help on this.


--
Mark Rousell

[Mark Rousell]

On 07/09/2018 04:05, 😉 Good Guy 😉 wrote:

> On 07/09/2018 02:48, Mark Rousell wrote:
>> Looks like this is finally fixed. They've been removed from the mail
>> list.
>>
>> Thanks for Dave Miller for his help on this.
>>
>>
>

> Are you talking about those flowers thing? If so, we won't know about
> them because they don't appear in NNTP via Thunderbird. It might have
> been a forum problem. I have not seen a single one in these
> newsgroups. The only one I saw was when Walt posted a Google link.

As I explained, the problem was that they were emailing requests to be
unsubscribed to some individual group members; they were *not* emailing
the group itself (except for the single post that WaltS48 found from
January) so most list/group members would not have seen their emails.
Only those members whom they chose to email would have seen them. It was
nothing to do with any forums.

Anyway, the problem is now solved.


--
Mark Rousell