Interesting blog post on "binge drinking" and conferences

[Chris Heilmann]

Here's a chap who stopped going to conferences as he feels excluded as
he doesn't drink:

http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/

I have to say I agree with a lot of the stuff he says, we could make a
difference at our events and maybe invite a different crowd by pointing
out a few of the things he wants to have. Like "afterparty without loud
music and coffees for networking".

It is an interesting point that maybe our conference circuit is trying
to make it too easy to overcome social awkwardness with alcohol.

[Robert Nyman]

Yes, read that last night (ironically when I came back from a conference party), and I generally agree.
Personally I don't drink often or much, and have been planning to write about my experiences and thoughts.

For us, I think it's just something to keep in mind when we arrange events.


Best regards,
Robert

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> engagement-developers mailing list
> engagement...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/engagement-developers

[Jeremie Patonnier]

Hi,

This is interesting, but to me, it looks like a big cultural shift. The
following is just my own point of view

As you know, I'm French, and maybe you don't know it but I don't drink
alcohol at all. For a French people this is amazingly strange because
France as a big culture of "casual alcohol" due to our vineyard history.
It's absolutely not thinkable for French people to think of an event
without alcohol during the casual times. And even for me who do not drink
alcohol, I feel strange if there is not because it's just polite to propose
such things in social meeting in France (I always have a bottle of wine at
home for my guests).

For that reason, I never feel exclude from an event because there is
alcohol near by and therefor, I do not understand why this guy look so
pissed. I know several other french people in the same situation as I am
(don't drink but always feel ok with people who do).

On another hand, due to that culture of alcohol in France, I never saw any
French people as badly drunk as some UK/US people that are able to drink
out of their mind. Ok, I saw devastated French people due to alcohol but
it's very uncommon and at last fare from what I saw with UK or US people.
Basically, French drink slowly and for the pleasure so it's possible to
have long good discussion before they get to high. But, here is one of the
big cultural shift, each time I am with UK/US people I'm pretty amazed to
see that when they start to drink, they do it to be drunk as fast as
possible. This really puzzled me.

Ok, ok... tl;dr... so I get back to the topics. I understand that alcohol
should never be the center part of any events, but it doesn't mean it
should be completely avoid. It's important to have some room to socialize
and, in my point of view it's impossible to totally avoid alcohol in that
case (this is very French ;). However, I agree with Robert that it's
important to just be sure that it remain under control and just casual. No
more, no less.

Chris and Robert, I know you already attend Paris Web so I'm pretty sure
you can understand what I mean by casual drinking ;)

++
Jérémie

Le 5 avril 2012 09:41, Chris Heilmann <chei...@mozilla.com> a écrit :

> Here's a chap who stopped going to conferences as he feels excluded as he
> doesn't drink:
>

> http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-**of-exclusion/<http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/>

>
> I have to say I agree with a lot of the stuff he says, we could make a
> difference at our events and maybe invite a different crowd by pointing out
> a few of the things he wants to have. Like "afterparty without loud music
> and coffees for networking".
>
> It is an interesting point that maybe our conference circuit is trying to
> make it too easy to overcome social awkwardness with alcohol.
>
>
>
>

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> engagement-developers@lists.**mozilla.org<engagement...@lists.mozilla.org>
> https://lists.mozilla.org/**listinfo/engagement-developers<https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/engagement-developers>
>



--
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat <http://twitter.com/JeremiePat>

[Rob Hawkes]

I'm in two minds about the issue here; on one hand I don't see the
problem, but on the other I remember the countless times that
after-parties have done my head in.

Disclaimer: My mum is an alcoholic and because of this I didn't start
drinking until I was 19 (that's pretty late in the UK) as I saw what
alcohol could do to someone. I spent my entire teenage life going
through the "OMG WHY U NO DRINK?!" stuff and yes it's hard, but (the
right) people ultimately respect it. In the end I realised that the
problem isn't the act of drinking, it's the reasons why and the ways how
people do it.

Here is a small dump of my thoughts:

* Drinking is part of the culture in many countries
o People want the option to enjoy a drink over good conversation
just as much as they would with a coffee or tea, particularly in
Europe
o We shouldn't actively decry or deprive a social norm from
people, that's not our place
* Under 18s in the UK (21 in the US) are unable to attend most events
because of alcohol
o How are we meant to draw in students?
* Most local events happen in the evening, as do conference after-parties
o Not many places are open late enough in the evening other than
bars and pubs
o Most drinking occurs normally in the evening, at least in the UK
o It's socially acceptable in the UK to head to the pub for a
drink after work to relax and chat with co-workers and friends
* The majority of people at events I've been at are not binge drinking
* The worst event I ever saw for drinking-related badness was when
Microsoft sponsored the bar for WDC in Bristol last year
o MS had NO control over who was buying drinks or how many they
could buy
o At one point the MS people actually want on the mic and said "We
have loads of money left at the bar, go spend it"
o After that people started buying bottles of champagne
o One person was so wasted that they deliberately threw a glass of
champagne over me for no reason (I wasn't even talking to them)
+ I'm confident this person would have not been as wasted if
the bar wasn't free and limitless
* Practically everyone I've seen who get's too wasted at events is
male and young (under 25)
o Often a student or recent graduatewho hasn't grown out of the
alcohol = fun way of life
o Older (25+) people seem to be much more reponsible
* The problem is that organisers actively fund a free bar, which is
obviously going to encourage more drinking
o Forcing people to pay for drinks always helps them be more
responsible
o If you want to allow free drinks then limit how many people can
have them and how many are available in total
o Letting people earn free drinks is a great way to control this,
rather than just giving them out at the beginning
* A lot of organisers feel that people won't attend unless there is
alcohol
o Even worse, they feel that less people will attend if that
alcohol isn't free (or at least some of it)
* I've never had a problem at events because I don't want to drink
o I rarely drink while in the US as I don't like beer and I'm not
massively keen on wine either
o Ordering a water or fruit juice has rarely resulted in an "OMG Y
U NO DRINK?!" response
o When it has, that isn't the kind of person that I would
socialise with anyway
o In fact, the only time you often get a bad response is when a
guy orders a cocktail or wine instead of a presumably masculine beer
* Drink isn't the main problem for me, loud music and bad layout of
the after-party venue are
o I'd rather talk to a drunk person and hope they remember 1% of
the conversation than lose my voice trying to shout over the top
of music that would be better placed in a nightclub
o Also, small rooms and low ceilings are horrible even without the
music
* Case in point, some friends and I took over a local meet-up for 1
event and it was the most popular one to date (150 attendees, for a
smallish town)
o I deliberately made the decision to have music but for it to be
lyricless background music that was only audible if the room was
silent
o We chose a venue with a bar but we barely put any money behind
it and you had to use tokens (that we controlled) to earn a free
drink
o One person got wasted and fell down a step but they had only
used one of our free drink tokens (they were ok but apparently
do it all the time according to co-workers)


Because of all this I actually came up with the idea of HTeaML, a series
of tea and coffee-based events that focus on good conversation and a bit
of fun at the same time. All without the alcohol. Now, it doesn't stop
people going for a drink later but it certain makes a stance that
alcohol doesn't have to be a part of all Web events.

I'm thinking of trialling this locally with a few tea shops. You can
find out more here:
http://rawkes.com/blog/2011/07/21/hteaml-a-superbly-traditional-event-for-london-web-developers

So there are a few things we can actively do to help here:

* Stop giving money to events that are using it to pay for a
completely free and open bar (surely our money should be doing
something more useful anyway)
* Actively scope out and support events that run without alcohol and
therefore can draw in a younger crowd
* Offer organisers alternative ways of attracting attendees other than
alcohol
* Tell people to turn the friggin music down. It's not a nightclub!


Rob

[Robert Nyman]

Jeremie, Rob,

Thanks for your extensive e-mails!
Interesting reads, for sure.

I just want to emphasize that I don't have a problem with people drinking, and I definitely respect the cultural differences.
For me it's just that if you are to drink, I hope people do it with moderation. For their own sake.

I'm more for understanding between people who drink and those who don't and for all of us to show mutual respect.
I don't think you should be mocked because you don't drink, just as I don't think we should ban alcohol.

So I guess now I Have to blog about this…


Best regards,
Robert

[David Bruant]

Hi all,

I confirm pretty much everything Jérémie said about cultural differences
in alcohol consumption between France and UK/US.
I have lived for a year in the US and I have a small anecdote.
Once, a friend threw a party at my place (it was complicated to do it at
his). There were beers. Started and ended the party. I helped him
cleaning the place. I was shocked by how many beers had been opened and
barely touched.
I found somewhat sadening that the best thing a lot of people were doing
to "look cool" was to open a drink, take a sip and leave it. I don't
really know if it's a US thing or a generational thing.

Rob wrote:
> * Stop giving money to events that are using it to pay for a
> completely free and open bar (surely our money should be doing
> something more useful anyway)

I have something to add which is unrelated to alcohol. At JSConf.eu last
October, someone was doing graphical live-conference note-taking.
I had a conversation with one of the organizers who was asked how they
had this idea. He answered something along the lines of:
"*We had some money left over* and we knew her and what she was doing,
we thought it would be cool" (emphasis added :-) )
It seems to mean that the ticket price is somewhat arbitrary (and
expensive) and how to spend the money is decided afterward.

I don't know the amounts in place here. But it does raise the question
of what is paid in your ticket. I wish events of all sort (especially
those where the ticket price is higher than say 50€ per day) would be
more transparent (and why not participatory) in how the money is being
spent.

> * Actively scope out and support events that run without alcohol and
> therefore can draw in a younger crowd

In the US/UK, having young people and alcohol in the same room is not
possible, but in France it could be. But I get your overall point.

> * Tell people to turn the friggin music down. It's not a nightclub!

+1.
And no TV! I'm getting really annoyed by restaurants and bar where there
is a TV.

Le 05/04/2012 11:31, Robert Nyman a écrit :
> I'm more for understanding between people who drink and those who don't and for all of us to show mutual respect.
> I don't think you should be mocked because you don't drink, just as I don't think we should ban alcohol.

Agreed. "Accepting that others are different": hot topic nowadays :-p

Also, I wish to attend an HTeaML event. Should one be organised before
or after next year's MozFest?

David

[Robert Nyman]

Blogged: http://robertnyman.com/2012/04/05/i-have-a-drinking-problem/


Best regards,
Robert

[Chris Heilmann]

You missed using this:

http://i51.tinypic.com/ouz286.jpg

[Robert Nyman]

Yes, I got similar suggestions from others. :-)


Best regards,
Robert

[Kevin Dangoor]

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:41 AM, Chris Heilmann <chei...@mozilla.com>wrote:

> Here's a chap who stopped going to conferences as he feels excluded as he
> doesn't drink:
>
> http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-**of-exclusion/<http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/>
>
> I have to say I agree with a lot of the stuff he says, we could make a
> difference at our events and maybe invite a different crowd by pointing out
> a few of the things he wants to have. Like "afterparty without loud music
> and coffees for networking".
>

I'm a non-drinker and in my opinion the problem is the loud music, not the
alcohol. Not many people have asked me about my non-drinking and those that
did didn't seem to care about it.

The loud music, though, makes it impossible to start or continue
conversations. In fact, I remember talking (yelling!) with Stormy about
that very thing at JSConf last year.

The last PyCon I went to, iirc, had *no* evening schedule. Or, at least,
what I remember was heading out for dinner with others that I knew. I don't
think that's ideal either (and it's quite possibly different now).

It is an interesting point that maybe our conference circuit is trying to
> make it too easy to overcome social awkwardness with alcohol.
>
>

Possibly... But for me, the problem is how difficult the after party
environment is in allowing me to engage with people that I see very
infrequently indeed.

Kevin

--
Kevin Dangoor

work: http://mozilla.com/
email: kdan...@mozilla.com <k...@blazingthings.com>
blog: http://www.BlueSkyOnMars.com

[Eric Shepherd]

Kevin Dangoor wrote:
> I'm a non-drinker and in my opinion the problem is the loud music, not the
> alcohol. Not many people have asked me about my non-drinking and those that
> did didn't seem to care about it.
>
> The loud music, though, makes it impossible to start or continue
> conversations. In fact, I remember talking (yelling!) with Stormy about
> that very thing at JSConf last year.

Exactly so. I don't drink for medical reasons, and that sometimes gets
questions but doesn't bother anyone. The extremely loud music at so many
of these events, though, is a real problem. I have a hard enough time
just singling out one conversation over the hubbub of many people
talking, let alone over thumpingly loud music.

--
Eric Shepherd
Developer Documentation Lead
Mozilla
Blog: http://www.bitstampede.com/

[Christie Koehler]

[Re-sending because at first I replied only to Chris. Oops!]

On 04/05/2012 12:41 AM, Chris Heilmann wrote:
> http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/
>
> I have to say I agree with a lot of the stuff he says, we could make a
> difference at our events and maybe invite a different crowd by pointing
> out a few of the things he wants to have. Like "afterparty without loud
> music and coffees for networking".

Thanks for sharing this, Chris. It's a subject that as an event
organizer and participant, I've been thinking a lot about. I'm glad that
someone's made it a topic of conversation.

I do think too many events provide an over abundance of alcohol and
encourage excess consumption. I think this causes a lot of problems,
both in terms of excluding those who do not connect well in that type of
environment, but also in terms of conduct. Many of the incidents I hear
about where people have crossed lines of appropriate behavior are
accompanied by excessive alcohol consumption. We've already seen this at
Mozilla events.

I'm glad Mozilla has social events, but I've always been a bit disturbed
by the massive amount of not only beer but hard liquor available at
Mozilla offices. It makes me uncomfortable. I can't imagine how
difficult it is for my co-workers who are in recovery.

At Open Source Bridge, we've done our best to de-emphasize getting drunk
in favor of collaboration in our Hacker Lounge over a beer, or soda, or
water, or tea. We haven't always been successful, however, because
sponsors always want to throw a party and almost without exception many
people get wasted at those parties. This year we've decided to have one
official party and we're going to be mindful of the environment and of
the behavior we help facilitate.

-Ck

--
Christie Koehler
Web Product Engineer
ckoe...@mozilla.com
503-928-4133

[Gervase Markham]

On 05/04/12 13:28, Kevin Dangoor wrote:
> I'm a non-drinker and in my opinion the problem is the loud music, not the
> alcohol. Not many people have asked me about my non-drinking and those that
> did didn't seem to care about it.

> The loud music, though, makes it impossible to start or continue
> conversations. In fact, I remember talking (yelling!) with Stormy about
> that very thing at JSConf last year.

+1 to that.

I don't mind going to places where people drink. When they get drunk,
they are usually no longer interesting, so I leave. But it's nice to be
able to have a conversation with them _before_ they are drunk. If
there's loud music, you can't even do that.

Gerv

[Mike Alexis]

Facebook's release engineering team has a fully stocked bar literally a few feet away from their workstations. Scroll down and see if you recognize anyone in the photo :)

http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2012/04/exclusive-a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-facebook-release-engineering.ars/3

----- Original Message -----

[Stormy Peters]

We could foster better behavior by explicitly calling out what we are
looking to accomplish with conference sponsorship and focusing on
sponsorships that will further our goals.

I think our goal in sponsoring events should not be "having a good time"
but rather building relationships, starting good conversations, spreading
the word about open technologies, etc. I think we'd all agree we have a
good time doing that.

Keeping that in mind, we would, for example, sponsor more hack spaces and
less parties.

Stormy

[Luke Crouch]

http://groovecoder.com/2012/04/05/beer-tech-community-events/

On 4/5/12 2:41 AM, Chris Heilmann wrote:
> Here's a chap who stopped going to conferences as he feels excluded as
> he doesn't drink:
>

> http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/
>
> I have to say I agree with a lot of the stuff he says, we could make a
> difference at our events and maybe invite a different crowd by
> pointing out a few of the things he wants to have. Like "afterparty
> without loud music and coffees for networking".
>

> It is an interesting point that maybe our conference circuit is trying
> to make it too easy to overcome social awkwardness with alcohol.
>
>
>
>

[Kevin Dangoor]

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Stormy Peters <sto...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Keeping that in mind, we would, for example, sponsor more hack spaces and
> less parties.
>

I think it's possible to have parties that allow people to socialize and do
fun things together without the loud music that makes it impossible to
talk. For example, the Mozilla all hands in September had an outdoor event
with food carts and a variety of interesting games. There was also music,
but because it was outside and in a large space, it was still easy to talk.

You couldn't really hack there, though, so it's not perfect. My point,
however, is that perhaps the nature of the parties can be changed.

[Havi Hoffman]

+1 on open spaces and versatile spaces for gatherings, just watch out for the hazards of badminton ;)


Not too long ago Janet mentioned that she couldn't find me in any of the photos from the AustinJS riverboat party I attended at SXSW. Aside from my 'Zelig' skilz, the real reason I didn't show up in any photos: I was constantly moving away from the way too loud music and the booze, so I could carry on a conversation w/someone there I actually wanted to talk to!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Dangoor" <kdan...@mozilla.com>
To: "Stormy Peters" <sto...@mozilla.com>
Cc: "engagement-developers" <engagement...@lists.mozilla.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2012 11:41:49 AM
Subject: Re: Interesting blog post on "binge drinking" and conferences

[Luke Crouch]

On 4/5/12 1:26 PM, Stormy Peters wrote:
> Keeping that in mind, we would, for example, sponsor more hack spaces and
> less parties.

<3

-L

[David Bruant]

Le 05/04/2012 20:37, Luke Crouch a écrit :
> http://groovecoder.com/2012/04/05/beer-tech-community-events/
Wow.

David

[Luke Crouch]

Uh-oh, is that a good wow or a bad wow? :\

-L

[Havi Hoffman]

it's a wonderful post Luke! i tweeted it from @mozlabs, and David retweeted it from there, so i think he liked it too :)

http://twitter.com/mozlabs/statuses/187985983537557505

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Crouch" <lcr...@mozilla.com>
To: "David Bruant" <brua...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Chris Heilmann" <chei...@mozilla.com>, "engagement-developers" <engagement...@lists.mozilla.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2012 1:23:38 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting blog post on "binge drinking" and conferences

[Chris Heilmann]

On 05/04/2012 21:23, Luke Crouch wrote:
> On 4/5/12 2:46 PM, David Bruant wrote:
>> Le 05/04/2012 20:37, Luke Crouch a écrit :
>>> http://groovecoder.com/2012/04/05/beer-tech-community-events/
>> Wow.
> Uh-oh, is that a good wow or a bad wow? :\
>
> -L

Going all mythbusters on us - loving it.

[David Bruant]

Le 05/04/2012 22:23, Luke Crouch a écrit :
> On 4/5/12 2:46 PM, David Bruant wrote:
>> Le 05/04/2012 20:37, Luke Crouch a écrit :
>>> http://groovecoder.com/2012/04/05/beer-tech-community-events/
>> Wow.
> Uh-oh, is that a good wow or a bad wow? :\

A very good wow :-) Such an awesome post on the topic!

David

[Jeff Griffiths]

On 12-04-05 1:23 PM, Luke Crouch wrote:
> On 4/5/12 2:46 PM, David Bruant wrote:
>> Le 05/04/2012 20:37, Luke Crouch a écrit :
>>> http://groovecoder.com/2012/04/05/beer-tech-community-events/
>> Wow.
> Uh-oh, is that a good wow or a bad wow? :\

Oh, probably a good wow. Nice post!

Ironically, I just arranged a $1k sponsorship for drinks at the polyglot
conference in Vancouver. An important takeaway I got from this thread
and just now communicated to the organizers was the notion that the
venues should not have blaring loud music. I hate that too.

I think a constructive way out of this is making sure that when we
produce or sponsor events we try to foster what I like to think of as an
'enshrined hallway track', meaning a bunch of quiet time, power and
tables that people can use to talk things out and collaborate. This is
kind of what MDN Hack Days are all about - providing some people with
information and then getting out of their way, helping them if you can
and then letting them show off what they've done at the end.

Jeff

[Robert Nyman]

> http://groovecoder.com/2012/04/05/beer-tech-community-events/

Thanks Luke, I just read that.
I especially think the last two paragraphs are excellent!

Best regards,
Robert

On Apr 5, 2012, at 20:37 , Luke Crouch wrote:

> http://groovecoder.com/2012/04/05/beer-tech-community-events/
>
> On 4/5/12 2:41 AM, Chris Heilmann wrote:
>> Here's a chap who stopped going to conferences as he feels excluded as he doesn't drink:
>>
>> http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/
>>
>> I have to say I agree with a lot of the stuff he says, we could make a difference at our events and maybe invite a different crowd by pointing out a few of the things he wants to have. Like "afterparty without loud music and coffees for networking".
>>
>> It is an interesting point that maybe our conference circuit is trying to make it too easy to overcome social awkwardness with alcohol.
>>
>>
>>
>>

[Kevin Dangoor]

Finally managed to put my response up, now that it's a day later and no one
will care :)

http://www.kevindangoor.com/2012/04/its-not-the-booze-its-the-noise/