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"Proper nouns" in products
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Rimas Kudelis
Mar 23, 2012, 3:35:22 PM3/23/12
to
Hi,
I'm bothered by the fact that both Firefox and Thunderbird are spotting
more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in their UI.
Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement" to leave
those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an urge to
raise it as an issue.
Just in case you aren't sure what I'm talking about here, here are a few
"proper nouns" that come to mind:
* Sync
* Panorama
* Personas (soon to be renamed to something else)
* FileLink (new Thunderbird feature)
* Marketplace
(hm, it looks like the list is not that big after all... Or I've missed
something)
I think the problem with this is that quite often such words end up
referring to both the _service_ (which has every right to be considered
as a non-localizable brand name) and a feature (which IMO does not).
For example, I don't think it's acceptable for an _action_ of
synchronizing data to be called "Sync" (as in proper noun). The service
may be called "Firefox Sync", but the action is simply synchronization
or sync (non-proper). It should be translatable.
Similarly, I don't want to have a menu that inserts a "FileLink" object
(a proper noun). For me, it simply inserts a file link. It's probably OK
to call the object (or the feature) FileLink in English, but I reaaally
feel like I want to translate it.
As for Marketplace, I haven't looked at the contexts it will appear in
yet, but I just want to mention, that AFAIK, even the Android Market
name is localizable. I can't see why the name of our market shouldn't be.
I have a suggestion to the developers. Every time you plan to introduce
another non-localizable proper noun, try to imagine that that noun is
not English, but German, French, Swedish or whatever. Try to imagine it
in the contexts and sentences you plan to introduce the English proper
noun to, and see if a completely foreign word makes any sense in such
contexts. If it will not, I guess it's quite likely that the English
noun won't make sense in localized product either.
By the way, maybe it would be a good idea to start giving non-English
codenames to new features? E.g. the marketplace could have been called
"Kaziuko mugė" during development. Mewonders how that would look as a
non-localizable proper noun in English UI. :)
Rimas
I'm bothered by the fact that both Firefox and Thunderbird are spotting
more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in their UI.
Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement" to leave
those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an urge to
raise it as an issue.
Just in case you aren't sure what I'm talking about here, here are a few
"proper nouns" that come to mind:
* Sync
* Panorama
* Personas (soon to be renamed to something else)
* FileLink (new Thunderbird feature)
* Marketplace
(hm, it looks like the list is not that big after all... Or I've missed
something)
I think the problem with this is that quite often such words end up
referring to both the _service_ (which has every right to be considered
as a non-localizable brand name) and a feature (which IMO does not).
For example, I don't think it's acceptable for an _action_ of
synchronizing data to be called "Sync" (as in proper noun). The service
may be called "Firefox Sync", but the action is simply synchronization
or sync (non-proper). It should be translatable.
Similarly, I don't want to have a menu that inserts a "FileLink" object
(a proper noun). For me, it simply inserts a file link. It's probably OK
to call the object (or the feature) FileLink in English, but I reaaally
feel like I want to translate it.
As for Marketplace, I haven't looked at the contexts it will appear in
yet, but I just want to mention, that AFAIK, even the Android Market
name is localizable. I can't see why the name of our market shouldn't be.
I have a suggestion to the developers. Every time you plan to introduce
another non-localizable proper noun, try to imagine that that noun is
not English, but German, French, Swedish or whatever. Try to imagine it
in the contexts and sentences you plan to introduce the English proper
noun to, and see if a completely foreign word makes any sense in such
contexts. If it will not, I guess it's quite likely that the English
noun won't make sense in localized product either.
By the way, maybe it would be a good idea to start giving non-English
codenames to new features? E.g. the marketplace could have been called
"Kaziuko mugė" during development. Mewonders how that would look as a
non-localizable proper noun in English UI. :)
Rimas
Michael Bauer
Mar 23, 2012, 4:31:13 PM3/23/12
to dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
23/03/2012 19:35, sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis:
> Hi,
>
> I'm bothered by the fact that both Firefox and Thunderbird are
> spotting more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in
> their UI. Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement"
> to leave those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an
> urge to raise it as an issue.
I've also noticed that and went "oh no, not Mozilla as well" - more used
>
> I'm bothered by the fact that both Firefox and Thunderbird are
> spotting more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in
> their UI. Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement"
> to leave those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an
> urge to raise it as an issue.
to that from Microsoft. I agree that the list is fairly short
(thankfully) just now but it should be discussed before it gets bigger.
I didn't actually realise that Sync was supposed to be left in English.
Ah well. And I was going to ignore the bit about Marketplace because
that just struck me as silly as everyone has a marketplace these days.
It's probably not intentional either, I suspect it just hasn't been
thought through and what that means for l10n.
Overall, I'd prefer the list of DNTs to remain as short as possible too.
Michael
Besnik Bleta
Mar 23, 2012, 5:36:16 PM3/23/12
to dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
Other projects are starting to suffer:
/Things that should not be localized:
* Mozilla Labs
* Apps
/
That's the answer for some similiar issues on MDN project.
How could you put Apps under such policies?!?
Më 03/23/2012 09:35 PM, Rimas Kudelis shkrojti:
> non-localizable proper noun in English UI. :)
>
> Rimas
> _______________________________________________
>
> Rimas
> dev-l10n mailing list
> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
>
Rimas Kudelis
Mar 23, 2012, 5:53:02 PM3/23/12
to dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi,
2012.03.23 22:31, Michael Bauer rašė:
> 23/03/2012 19:35, sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis:
we should at least try to change them, before resorting to ignoring them.
> Overall, I'd prefer the list of DNTs to remain as short as possible too.
I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this as a problem. I was almost
under an impression that I'm just way a grumpy and frustrated person
just waiting for anything to criticize. :)
Rimas
2012.03.23 22:31, Michael Bauer rašė:
> 23/03/2012 19:35, sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis:
>> I'm bothered by the fact that both Firefox and Thunderbird are
>> spotting more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in
>> their UI. Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement"
>> to leave those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an
>> urge to raise it as an issue.
> I've also noticed that and went "oh no, not Mozilla as well" - more used
> to that from Microsoft. I agree that the list is fairly short
> (thankfully) just now but it should be discussed before it gets bigger.
> I didn't actually realise that Sync was supposed to be left in English.
> Ah well. And I was going to ignore the bit about Marketplace because
> that just struck me as silly as everyone has a marketplace these days.
>
> It's probably not intentional either, I suspect it just hasn't been
> thought through and what that means for l10n.
The problem is, the rules we break are still the rules. If they're bad,
>> spotting more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in
>> their UI. Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement"
>> to leave those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an
>> urge to raise it as an issue.
> I've also noticed that and went "oh no, not Mozilla as well" - more used
> to that from Microsoft. I agree that the list is fairly short
> (thankfully) just now but it should be discussed before it gets bigger.
> I didn't actually realise that Sync was supposed to be left in English.
> Ah well. And I was going to ignore the bit about Marketplace because
> that just struck me as silly as everyone has a marketplace these days.
>
> It's probably not intentional either, I suspect it just hasn't been
> thought through and what that means for l10n.
we should at least try to change them, before resorting to ignoring them.
> Overall, I'd prefer the list of DNTs to remain as short as possible too.
under an impression that I'm just way a grumpy and frustrated person
just waiting for anything to criticize. :)
Rimas
Asa Dotzler
Mar 24, 2012, 12:16:31 AM3/24/12
to
On 3/23/2012 12:35 PM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm bothered by the fact that both Firefox and Thunderbird are spotting
> more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in their UI.
> Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement" to leave
> those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an urge to
> raise it as an issue.
>
> Just in case you aren't sure what I'm talking about here, here are a few
> "proper nouns" that come to mind:
> * Sync
> * Panorama
> * Personas (soon to be renamed to something else)
> * FileLink (new Thunderbird feature)
> * Marketplace
>
> (hm, it looks like the list is not that big after all... Or I've missed
> something)
Hi, Rimas.
> Hi,
>
> I'm bothered by the fact that both Firefox and Thunderbird are spotting
> more and more "proper nouns" (as in, untranslatable names) in their UI.
> Up until now, I have been simply ignoring the "requirement" to leave
> those in English, but with more and more coming up, I feel an urge to
> raise it as an issue.
>
> Just in case you aren't sure what I'm talking about here, here are a few
> "proper nouns" that come to mind:
> * Sync
> * Panorama
> * Personas (soon to be renamed to something else)
> * FileLink (new Thunderbird feature)
> * Marketplace
>
> (hm, it looks like the list is not that big after all... Or I've missed
> something)
I'm the Firefox Product Manager and working with the Product Marketing
team, I help to define Firefox features and labels and how they are
presented to our users.
The Mozilla Product and Product Marketing teams are moving *away* from
branding features. For example, when we build Collusion-like
capabilities into Firefox, it will be called something like "tracking
manager" or other similarly descriptive name.
Sync, Panorama, and Personas are all from a previous era when we were
"branding" features. Awesomebar falls into that same category -- though
not explicitly with product strings.
Marketplace is different. It is a name no different than Firefox or
Mozilla. It is a brand, a particular app store that we manage and it is
rightfully a proper noun.
That being said, it's also not a "feature" like the others. Think of it
more like a built in bookmark to a site named "Mozilla Marketplace".
Unless you're suggesting that Mozilla should not name its app store with
the proper noun "Mozilla Marketplace" then I don't think you should have
a problem with it being labeled "Marketplace" in the browser button.
But, as I opened saying, we don't intend to brand Firefox features going
forward the way we have in the past so I don't think there's a lot of
value in spinning up a long thread on this.
- A
Hasse
Mar 24, 2012, 3:22:30 AM3/24/12
to
In article <_eidneQyqI7p1_DS...@mozilla.org>, Asa Dotzler
wrote...
> Marketplace is different. It is a name no different than Firefox or
> Mozilla. It is a brand, a particular app store that we manage and it is
> rightfully a proper noun.
>
> That being said, it's also not a "feature" like the others. Think of it
> more like a built in bookmark to a site named "Mozilla Marketplace".
> Unless you're suggesting that Mozilla should not name its app store with
> the proper noun "Mozilla Marketplace" then I don't think you should have
> a problem with it being labeled "Marketplace" in the browser button.
So are you saying that when you chose the name "Marketplace", you did
not meant for it to be descriptive or informative to the user?
Is the site supposed to be localized? If so, what is the difference
between this site and AMO and SUMO that AFAIK have localized names?
--
Hasse
sv-SE l10n team
wrote...
> Marketplace is different. It is a name no different than Firefox or
> Mozilla. It is a brand, a particular app store that we manage and it is
> rightfully a proper noun.
>
> That being said, it's also not a "feature" like the others. Think of it
> more like a built in bookmark to a site named "Mozilla Marketplace".
> Unless you're suggesting that Mozilla should not name its app store with
> the proper noun "Mozilla Marketplace" then I don't think you should have
> a problem with it being labeled "Marketplace" in the browser button.
not meant for it to be descriptive or informative to the user?
Is the site supposed to be localized? If so, what is the difference
between this site and AMO and SUMO that AFAIK have localized names?
--
Hasse
sv-SE l10n team
Asa Dotzler
Mar 24, 2012, 3:41:09 AM3/24/12
to
name and not simply a descriptor. See the Mac App Store for an example
of this kind of product and how the brand does not get translated:
http://www.apple.com/fr/mac/app-store/
http://www.apple.com/jp/mac/app-store/
http://www.apple.com/br/mac/app-store/
- A
Rimas Kudelis
Mar 24, 2012, 3:41:25 AM3/24/12
to
Hi Asa,
2012.03.24 06:16, Asa Dotzler rašė:
> The Mozilla Product and Product Marketing teams are moving *away* from
> branding features.
That's good to know, thanks!
> Marketplace is different. It is a name no different than Firefox or
> Mozilla. It is a brand, a particular app store that we manage and it is
> rightfully a proper noun.
>
> That being said, it's also not a "feature" like the others. Think of it
> more like a built in bookmark to a site named "Mozilla Marketplace".
> Unless you're suggesting that Mozilla should not name its app store with
> the proper noun "Mozilla Marketplace" then I don't think you should have
> a problem with it being labeled "Marketplace" in the browser button.
Uh... That's a call to make. Right now, I think it would probably not
hurt if the button leading to the Mozilla Marketplace (TM) was named
"App store" and localized, would it?
Hasse also offers a good point. Perhaps the Marketplace as a proper name
should be localizable along with the marketplace itself?
Rimas
2012.03.24 06:16, Asa Dotzler rašė:
> The Mozilla Product and Product Marketing teams are moving *away* from
> branding features.
> Marketplace is different. It is a name no different than Firefox or
> Mozilla. It is a brand, a particular app store that we manage and it is
> rightfully a proper noun.
>
> That being said, it's also not a "feature" like the others. Think of it
> more like a built in bookmark to a site named "Mozilla Marketplace".
> Unless you're suggesting that Mozilla should not name its app store with
> the proper noun "Mozilla Marketplace" then I don't think you should have
> a problem with it being labeled "Marketplace" in the browser button.
hurt if the button leading to the Mozilla Marketplace (TM) was named
"App store" and localized, would it?
Hasse also offers a good point. Perhaps the Marketplace as a proper name
should be localizable along with the marketplace itself?
Rimas
Michael Lefevre
Mar 24, 2012, 3:51:33 AM3/24/12
to
On 24/03/2012 04:16, Asa Dotzler wrote:
[...]
rightfully a common noun, and has been for hundreds of years. Mozilla is
clearly a pretty unique name, and firefox is a nickname for an animal
but nothing to do with computers. Neither of them are in the dictionary
I'm looking at. A marketplace is a descriptive term, and the likes of
Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, CNet and many many others in many
sectors (just search for "marketplace") have similar things, using the
same name.
That doesn't stop Mozilla using it as a brand or having a particular
policy for l10n, but it's not a proper noun (although it can of course
be a name if you put Mozilla in front of it) and it clearly is descriptive.
Michael
[...]
> Marketplace is different. It is a name no different than Firefox or
> Mozilla. It is a brand, a particular app store that we manage and it is
> rightfully a proper noun.
This sounds pretty strange to me. My dictionary says that it is
> Mozilla. It is a brand, a particular app store that we manage and it is
> rightfully a proper noun.
rightfully a common noun, and has been for hundreds of years. Mozilla is
clearly a pretty unique name, and firefox is a nickname for an animal
but nothing to do with computers. Neither of them are in the dictionary
I'm looking at. A marketplace is a descriptive term, and the likes of
Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, CNet and many many others in many
sectors (just search for "marketplace") have similar things, using the
same name.
That doesn't stop Mozilla using it as a brand or having a particular
policy for l10n, but it's not a proper noun (although it can of course
be a name if you put Mozilla in front of it) and it clearly is descriptive.
Michael
Vito Smolej
Mar 27, 2012, 3:40:33 PM3/27/12
to
On Mar 24, 9:51 am, Michael Lefevre <mjl+n...@michaellefevre.com>
wrote:
where's Mozilla World-ready when the world needs it?
Reason why I have unsubscribed YA useless Email listing.
More to follow.
smo
wrote:
Reason why I have unsubscribed YA useless Email listing.
More to follow.
smo
Rimas Kudelis
Dec 8, 2012, 5:46:54 AM12/8/12
to
Hi,
I'd like to resurrect this old thread. While catching up with en-US
today, I discovered another word that seems to be used as a proper noun:
Telemetry.
Just wondering, if it's intentional or an oversight.
Regards,
Rimas
I'd like to resurrect this old thread. While catching up with en-US
today, I discovered another word that seems to be used as a proper noun:
Telemetry.
Just wondering, if it's intentional or an oversight.
Regards,
Rimas
Ricardo Palomares Martínez
Dec 8, 2012, 6:48:12 AM12/8/12
to
El 08/12/12 11:46, Rimas Kudelis escribió:
Except for a couple of strings which I can't identify right now where
they come from, in es-ES we have considered Telemetry to be a proper
noun. YMMV.
--
Ricardo Palomares (RickieES)
http://www.mozilla-hispano.org/
http://www.proyectonave.es/
https://diasp.eu/u/rickiees
they come from, in es-ES we have considered Telemetry to be a proper
noun. YMMV.
--
Ricardo Palomares (RickieES)
http://www.mozilla-hispano.org/
http://www.proyectonave.es/
https://diasp.eu/u/rickiees
Robert Kaiser
Dec 8, 2012, 12:50:54 PM12/8/12
to
Rimas Kudelis schrieb:
feedback to Mozilla automatically in the background (if turned on).
Robert Kaiser
> I'd like to resurrect this old thread. While catching up with en-US
> today, I discovered another word that seems to be used as a proper noun:
>
> Telemetry.
AFAIK, Telemetry is the name of the feature that sends some anonymized
> today, I discovered another word that seems to be used as a proper noun:
>
> Telemetry.
feedback to Mozilla automatically in the background (if turned on).
Robert Kaiser
Rimas Kudelis
Dec 8, 2012, 4:36:39 PM12/8/12
to
pretty reasonable for bigger features to have nicknames during
development, but I don't like it when those nicknames slip into the
final product and are treated as something special by the product team.
In March Asa Dotzler wrote that "The Mozilla Product and Product
Marketing teams are moving *away* from branding features.", and yet
those "named" features keep popping up every now and then.
In this particular case, I simply assumed Telemetry is a non-proper
noun, and it worked all fine for me, however, that isn't always that
case. Furthermore, it's just not right to have
standards/rules/whatever-you-call-them, and then simply ignore them for
no good reason.
Rimas
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