MBTA Green Line - how many branches did it once have?
Michael J. Saletnik
Ron Newman wrote:
> And did streetcars always terminate at Lechmere, or did they once
> continue beyond it into Cambridge and Somerville?
Considering that there are trolley tracks on College Avenue between
Davis Square, Somerville, and Medford, I would be inclined to think that
you have gotten well over your head, Ron! I read somewhere that at the
peak there were over 1000 miles of track in revenue service.
--
Michael J. Saletnik Tufts University E'91 G'93
Structural Engineer, Bryant Associates Inc., Boston
Lecturer, Dept of Civil & Environ. Engin., Tufts University
mic...@ties.org --> http://www.tiac.net/users/icarus/
Ron Newman
I'd like to know how many branches were once attached to what is now
known as the Green Line of the (Boston) MBTA.
Specifically, if I stood on the southbound platform at Park Street Station
at various times betweeen 1897 and today, what destination signs would
I see on the various cars that went by? What points could I reach from
here in a one-stop ride, without transferring above ground?
Please help me complete this list.
"A" Watertown branch
Service started: ???
Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
Service ended: June 21, 1969 - replaced by #57 bus
(did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
"B" Commonwealth Avenue to Boston College (aka "Lake Street")
Service started: ???
Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
(did cars ever continue down Commonwealth Avenue beyond Lake Street?
did it ever have additional branches on the surface?)
"C" Beacon Street to Cleveland Circle
Service started: ???
Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
(did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
"D" Highland Branch to Riverside
Service started: 1959
"E" Huntington Avenue to Arborway
Service started: ???
Began running through Huntington Avenue subway: Feb. 16, 1941
Last car to Arborway ran December 26, 1985, replaced by #39 bus;
streetcar service now runs only to Heath Street loop
(did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
Tremont Street to Egelston Square
Service started: ???
Cut back to Lenox Street in the South End: ? sometime in the 1950s ?
Service ended: November 1961? - replaced by #43 bus
Broadway to City Point
Service started: ???
Service ended: 1954? - replaced by #9 bus
What other branches once existed?
Similarly, if I was standing in Scollay Square station at various times
between 1897 and today, on the northbound platform, what destinations
could I reach with a one-stop ride?
I know that what is now the Canal Street stub terminal at North Station
was once just a surface stop on the way to Charlestown, following what
are now the routes of the #92 and #93 buses. Did these
cars use the old Warren Street bridge, or the Charlestown bridge?
Did any cars from the subway go to Chelsea or other points besides
Sullivan Square in Charlestown?
And did streetcars always terminate at Lechmere, or did they once
continue beyond it into Cambridge and Somerville?
--
Ron Newman rne...@cybercom.net
Web: http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html
Ron Newman
In article <32E048...@tiac.net>, mic...@ties.org wrote:
> Ron Newman wrote:
> > And did streetcars always terminate at Lechmere, or did they once
> > continue beyond it into Cambridge and Somerville?
>
> Considering that there are trolley tracks on College Avenue between
> Davis Square, Somerville, and Medford, I would be inclined to think that
> you have gotten well over your head, Ron! I read somewhere that at the
> peak there were over 1000 miles of track in revenue service.
I assume you mean that there *used* to be trolley tracks there --
I walk down that street frequently and certainly don't see any there now.
There used to be trolley tracks almost everywhere, but not all the
streetcars on all those tracks ever fed into what is now the
Green Line tunnel. So yes, you could ride a trolley down College Avenue,
but could you ride one non-stop from Scollay Square to there?
sno...@ix.netcom.com
On 01/17/1997 07:07, in message Ron Newman <rne...@cybercom.net> wrote:
> I'd like to know how many branches were once attached to what is now
> known as the Green Line of the (Boston) MBTA.
>
> Specifically, if I stood on the southbound platform at Park Street Station
> at various times betweeen 1897 and today, what destination signs would
> I see on the various cars that went by? What points could I reach from
> here in a one-stop ride, without transferring above ground?
>
> Please help me complete this list.
>
> "A" Watertown branch
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
> Service ended: June 21, 1969 - replaced by #57 bus
> (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
turnabcks at Oak Square & Packard's Corner & special service to B. U.
Field/Braves Field
> "B" Commonwealth Avenue to Boston College (aka "Lake Street")
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
Kenmore Square trippers turned back at Blandford St. Portal
Chestnut Hill Avenue via Commonwealth Ave, - pullout, pullins to reservoir
Carhouse
> "C" Beacon Street to Cleveland Circle
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
possible turnback at St. Mary's St. Portal but blandford St. was used
> "D" Highland Branch to Riverside
> Service started: 1959
Reservoir originally used at start of service for every other trip, but then
only used by rush hour trippers
> "E" Huntington Avenue to Arborway
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Huntington Avenue subway: Feb. 16, 1941
> Last car to Arborway ran December 26, 1985, replaced by #39 bus;
> streetcar service now runs only to Heath Street loop
> (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
Northeastern University was the last tripper service to use the Type 5's until
1959 & the Dallas PCCs
Heath St. Loop was regularly used for rush & midday service
Chestnut Hill service ran into the subway via Huntington ended in the late 30's
or early 40's
> Tremont Street to Egelston Square
> Service started: ???
> Cut back to Lenox Street in the South End: ? sometime in the 1950s ?
> Service ended: November 1961? - replaced by #43 bus
Lennox St. Loop always had service
> Broadway to City Point
> Service started: ???
> Service ended: 1954? - replaced by #9 bus
> What other branches once existed?
the above are the main ones from the 40's. Before the el was built there were a
lot more lines.
> Similarly, if I was standing in Scollay Square station at various times
> between 1897 and today, on the northbound platform, what destinations
> could I reach with a one-stop ride?
I believe the inner loop was called Brattle Street Loop. Charleston service
probably ended in the 30's.
> I know that what is now the Canal Street stub terminal at North Station
> was once just a surface stop on the way to Charlestown, following what
> are now the routes of the #92 and #93 buses. Did these
> cars use the old Warren Street bridge, or the Charlestown bridge?
> Did any cars from the subway go to Chelsea or other points besides
> Sullivan Square in Charlestown?
The Eastern Mass used a loop at Adams St. until the 30's.
> And did streetcars always terminate at Lechmere, or did they once
> continue beyond it into Cambridge and Somerville?
Yes & no. Commonwealth Ave. cars were based at Bartlett St. (Harvard Yard) and
3-car center-entrance trains ran alongside the trackless trolley line from
Harvard.
In the 20's there was through service to Brattle Street.
DISCLAIMER - The above is an "off the top of my head" capsule view. Consult
past issues of Rollsign for a VERY ACCURATE list!!!!!
--
Dave Snowden
Redondo Beach, California
sno...@ix.netcom.com
Ron Newman
In article <N.011897....@ix.netcom.com>, sno...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > "A" Watertown branch
> > (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
> turnabcks at Oak Square & Packard's Corner & special service to B. U.
> Field/Braves Field
Was there a special short branch to Braves Field with its own stub track
or turnaround loop?
> > Similarly, if I was standing in Scollay Square station at various times
> > between 1897 and today, on the northbound platform, what destinations
> > could I reach with a one-stop ride?
>
> I believe the inner loop was called Brattle Street Loop.
This Brattle Street Loop was part of Scollay Square station, right?
James VanBokkelen
>Was there a special short branch to Braves Field with its own stub track
>or turnaround loop?
You could see the remains of the westerley side of the former loop
around the field at the corner of Babcock St. (I think) &
Commonwealth Ave. in the late '70s. Something makes me think the
track switches were only set up for cars coming from/going to
Kenmore, but there could have been a wye...
>This Brattle Street Loop was part of Scollay Square station, right?
The current inner loop at Government Center is the former Brattle
St. loop track. The alignment between Scollay & Haymarket changed
in the '60s, as discussed previously. Adams Sq. still existed in
1960, and I remember seeing it from passing cars, but towards the
end it was only open really limited hours, and at other times the
cars didn't stop. I think I can recall seeing the loop opposite
the platform, but that was long ago.
jbvb
sno...@ix.netcom.com
On 01/18/1997 21:40, in message Ron Newman <rne...@cybercom.net> wrote:
> > "A" Watertown branch
>
> > > (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
>
> > turnabcks at Oak Square & Packard's Corner & special service to B. U.
> > Field/Braves Field
>
> Was there a special short branch to Braves Field with its own stub track
> or turnaround loop?
There was a 1-block loop by the west side of Braves Field. I think there were 2
tracks. It was about one block form Commonwealth Ave.
> > > Similarly, if I was standing in Scollay Square station at various times
> > > between 1897 and today, on the northbound platform, what destinations
> > > could I reach with a one-stop ride?
> >
> > I believe the inner loop was called Brattle Street Loop.
>
> This Brattle Street Loop was part of Scollay Square station, right?
Scollay Square was the name of the platforms for the service to and from Park
Street. There was a fence between those tracks and the loop track. The station
for the loop was called Brattle Street.
WILD GUESS - The cars from Charlestown & the Eastern Mass. cars stopped at
Haymarket where there probably was a fence and a ticket booth on the inbound
side where passengers paid their MTA subway fare or exited to the street and
paid the surface MTA fare. There probably was another ticket booth for
incomming riders. Probably the same arrangement on the outbound side.
Brattle Street was probably set up to only pay an exiting surface fare and
another fare would have to be paid to enter the subway.
HINT-This would be a great article for ROLLSIGN!!!!
I know in the 50's when the surface fare was 5 cents, the subway fare was 20
cents which included a free transfer to a connecting coach or car. This was THE
FASTEST SYSTEM in the world!!!! Passengers would board an inbound car or coach
through BOTH doors. hen the car or coach reached the subway station everyone
exited both doors and paid their fare on the platform. Surface riders would pay
their fare when exiting.
Outbound, you paid your fare downtown and exited the subway and walked across
the platform to your car or coach. BOTH doors could be used for exiting. If you
boarded on the surface, you simply paid your surface fare to the conductor!!!
EASY and FAST!!!!
> --
> Ron Newman rne...@cybercom.net
> Web: http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html
--
Michael J. Saletnik
sno...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> WILD GUESS - The cars from Charlestown & the Eastern Mass. cars stopped at
> Haymarket where there probably was a fence and a ticket booth on the inbound
> side where passengers paid their MTA subway fare or exited to the street and
Recall that at the time, Haymarket Station was located between the
existing entrance at the busway and the incline. It was 4 tracks with 2
or 3 platforms (similar to Kenmore or Park). The inner tracks fed the
Brattle Loop while the outer tracks went around to Scollay proper (and
Adams). The inner tracks also lined up with the Canal Street turnaround,
while the outer tracks went up to the Cambridge Viaduct. Of course, this
is just geometry; switches were used.
The current Haymarket Green Line platforms are really just the inner
tracks, covered over.
Scott Moore
Ron Newman wrote:
>
> I'd like to know how many branches were once attached to what is now
> known as the Green Line of the (Boston) MBTA.
>
> Specifically, if I stood on the southbound platform at Park Street Station
> at various times betweeen 1897 and today, what destination signs would
> I see on the various cars that went by? What points could I reach from
> here in a one-stop ride, without transferring above ground?
Many of the routes below with a "Date Started: ???" began electric
operation shortly after 1889. Many of them were horse car routes well
before 1889, so determining an exact starting date for each of the lines
might be difficult. Horsecars in Boston were gone by about 1900, and no
horsecar routes were ever operated in the Subway.
Many of my books are still in storage (from the move) but here goes...
>
> Please help me complete this list.
>
> "A" Watertown branch
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
> Service ended: June 21, 1969 - replaced by #57 bus
> (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
Yes, Watertown via N. Beacon & Comm., Watertown via Arsenal, Western, &
Mass. Ave., & Newton Corner via Watertown, Mt. Auburn and Mass. Ave.
There were likely others before 1907.
Watertown cars (on the just recently abandoned route) were signed up
Nonantum Square if I'm reading this correctly...
>
> "B" Commonwealth Avenue to Boston College (aka "Lake Street")
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
> (did cars ever continue down Commonwealth Avenue beyond Lake Street?
> did it ever have additional branches on the surface?)
Yes, but a transfer to Middlesex & Boston cars was required...
>
> "C" Beacon Street to Cleveland Circle
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932
> (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
Yes. There was service to the Allston Carhouse which used the Beacon
Street line from Boston to Coolidge Corner, and a branch from the
present Boston College terminal also used part of the Beacon Street line
from Chestnut Hill Ave to Washington Street. There may have been more,
but this book only goes back to 1907.
>
> "D" Highland Branch to Riverside
> Service started: 1959
>
> "E" Huntington Avenue to Arborway
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Huntington Avenue subway: Feb. 16, 1941
> Last car to Arborway ran December 26, 1985, replaced by #39 bus;
> streetcar service now runs only to Heath Street loop
> (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
There were a variety of branches off of the Huntington Ave line in 1907,
including car to: Oak Square, Allston Carhouse and Newton Line (Boston
College). There were others as well before 1907.
>
> Tremont Street to Egelston Square
> Service started: ???
> Cut back to Lenox Street in the South End: ? sometime in the 1950s ?
> Service ended: November 1961? - replaced by #43 bus
Cutback Egleston to Lenox Street: 1955.
Lenox to Broadway Portal: November 1961
Eliminated Completely: Early (April?) 1962.
>
> Broadway to City Point
> Service started: ???
> Service ended: 1954? - replaced by #9 bus
I believe that this service survived until 1955, when work on the
Broadway Bridge was required.
>
> What other branches once existed?
>
> Similarly, if I was standing in Scollay Square station at various times
> between 1897 and today, on the northbound platform, what destinations
> could I reach with a one-stop ride?
Before the creation of the rapid transit system, trolleys from a
plethora of origin points entered the Tremont Street Subway, and the
present hub-and-spoke system did not exist at that time.
I have two photos in front of me which show 25 foot open cars signed up
for Ashmont & Milton, Fields Corner, and Jamaica Plain.
In November of 1907 (while the Orange Line was running through the
Tremont Street Subway) there is a listing on 30-odd routes running to
the Park Street Inner Loop, and 6 routes running into the Brattle Loop,
not including the rather extensive Boston & Northern Street railways
service to the North Shore including Chelsea, Revere, Lynn and Salem.
(source: Boston's Main Line El: The Formative Years 1879-1908 by: George
Chiasson).
>
> I know that what is now the Canal Street stub terminal at North Station
> was once just a surface stop on the way to Charlestown, following what
> are now the routes of the #92 and #93 buses. Did these
> cars use the old Warren Street bridge, or the Charlestown bridge?
I believe they both used the Charlestown Bridge. However, the last
scheduled streetcar service into the Brattle loop (from outside of the
present system) was 1955. By that time, a loop had been constructed at
Canal Street, with tracks which lead off under the El to Sullivan Square
and then went to Everett Station. This track was still used for shop
moves from the Green Line to the Everett shops, but I don't recall when
they stopped this operation (my guess is 1963, when the Mystic River
Bridge on Broadway near Sullivan Square was rebuilt). The loop at Canal
Street was replaced with the stub-end tracks in 1977 (the LRVs couldn't
make the turn around that loop).
> Did any cars from the subway go to Chelsea or other points besides
> Sullivan Square in Charlestown?
Yes, but the closing of the old Mystic River Bridge (which was replaced
by the Tobin) cancelled trolley services between Chelsea and the subway.
The old drawbridge was a troublesome machine toward the end, and got
stuck on several occasions before trolley service was discontinued.
> And did streetcars always terminate at Lechmere, or did they once
> continue beyond it into Cambridge and Somerville?
The viaduct was opened on 6/1/1912 allowing through service to North
Station.
Lechmere station was made (enclosed) 7/10/1922.
One of these books has an image of a Type 3 (the same cars as the
present Green Line snow plows) in passenger service bound for Clarendon
Square at North Station.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Moore
(not necessarily speaking for...)
The New England Transportation Site Last Updated: January 1, 1997
A compilation of news, information, and history relating to
transportation in Boston and New England.
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Most Recent Update includes...
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Robert Coe
On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:48:50, jb...@satisfied.apocalypse.org (James
VanBokkelen) wrote:
: You could see the remains of the westerley side of the former loop
: around the field at the corner of Babcock St. (I think) &
: Commonwealth Ave. in the late '70s. Something makes me think the
: track switches were only set up for cars coming from/going to
: Kenmore, but there could have been a wye...
The loop didn't go around the field, just up to the entrance set back a
bit from Commonwealth Ave. Outbound cars turned right at or near
Gaffney St, then left to pass in front of the stadium, left again at
Babcock St, and finally left onto the inbound track on Commonwealth Ave.
(I don't know whether the loop could also be entered and exited by
inbound cars from Boston College, or whether on game days outbound cars
not making the short turn were diverted to pass close to the stadium.)
: >This Brattle Street Loop was part of Scollay Square station, right?
:
: The current inner loop at Government Center is the former Brattle St.
: loop track. The alignment between Scollay & Haymarket changed in the
: '60s, as discussed previously. Adams Sq. still existed in 1960, and
: I remember seeing it from passing cars, but towards the end it was
: only open really limited hours, and at other times the cars didn't
: stop. I think I can recall seeing the loop opposite the platform,
: but that was long ago.
I don't remember limited hours per se, but towards the end the station
was unmanned and could be entered only if you already had a token. My
experience wasn't extensive, but I don't recall ever being on a car that
didn't stop at Adams. And I have absolutely no recollection of that
alleged loop, whose existence has been attested to by people more
knowledgeable than I. (There was, of course, a second track through
Adams: the outbound side of the inner pair through North Station and
Haymarket that terminated at the "Brattle St" loop mentioned above. I
never saw it used.)
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 508-443-3265
Robert Coe
On Mon, 20 Jan 97 07:13:26 GMT, sno...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: I know in the 50's when the surface fare was 5 cents, the subway
: fare was 20 cents ...
At the risk of starting an argument with someone whose memory may be
better than mine, my recollection is that by 1948 the surface fare was
13c and subway tokens were 20c or 5 for 90c. By the mid-1950s, the
surface fare was 15c, and tokens were 20c with no quantity discount.
: which included a free transfer to a connecting coach or car.
In the early 1960s, transfers were abolished; an additionel fare was
imposed on streetcar trips that originated or terminated on the surface;
and the bus fare was cut to 10c. The subway fare went to 25c, but I
think that might have happened slightly later.
Scott Moore
sno...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Scollay Square was the name of the platforms for the service to and from Park
> Street. There was a fence between those tracks and the loop track. The station
> for the loop was called Brattle Street.
Correct. Today, the public name for the loop is Government Center, but
the T still refers to it as the Brattle loop.
>
> WILD GUESS - The cars from Charlestown & the Eastern Mass. cars stopped at
> Haymarket where there probably was a fence and a ticket booth on the inbound
> side where passengers paid their MTA subway fare or exited to the street and
> paid the surface MTA fare. There probably was another ticket booth for
> incomming riders. Probably the same arrangement on the outbound side.
>
> Brattle Street was probably set up to only pay an exiting surface fare and
> another fare would have to be paid to enter the subway.
Correct again.
Several "Foreign" cars entered the subway and used the Brattle loop.
The Brattle loop was not "in the fare collection area" and required that
fares be paid on the car (either entering or exiting). This system was
the same for the "inner" tracks at Haymerket and at Adams.
Michael J. Saletnik
Scott Moore wrote:
> One of these books has an image of a Type 3 (the same cars as the
> present Green Line snow plows) in passenger service bound for Clarendon
> Square at North Station.
Would it be a valid assumption that this is the current destination of
the 89 bus, the Clarendon Hill layover facility at Broadway and Rt 16 in
Somerville? That whole area is full of trolley tracks just under the
pavement...
Robert Coe
On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:56:02 -0500, "Michael J. Saletnik"
<ica...@tiac.net> wrote:
: Recall that at the time, Haymarket Station was located between the
: existing entrance at the busway and the incline. It was 4 tracks with
: 2 or 3 platforms (similar to Kenmore or Park). The inner tracks fed
: the Brattle Loop while the outer tracks went around to Scollay proper
: (and Adams). The inner tracks also lined up with the Canal Street
: turnaround, while the outer tracks went up to the Cambridge Viaduct.
: Of course, this is just geometry; switches were used.
:
: The current Haymarket Green Line platforms are really just the inner
: tracks, covered over.
I was surprised, the other evening, to discover how much the ongoing
construction at North Station is apparently going to impact Haymarket
station. Does anyone have any information as to what permanent changes,
if any, will be made to the station's configuration?
Scott Moore
Michael J. Saletnik wrote:
>
> Scott Moore wrote:
> > One of these books has an image of a Type 3 (the same cars as the
> > present Green Line snow plows) in passenger service bound for Clarendon
> > Square at North Station.
>
> the 89 bus, the Clarendon Hill layover facility at Broadway and Rt 16 in
> Somerville? That whole area is full of trolley tracks just under the
> pavement...
Yes, considering the *most* bus routes in Boston were once trolley
routes. If you check out the Changes in MBTA Bus Routes section, most
of the routes that were *inherited from* other companies were at one
time a trolley route. Obviously, the routes that were created new by
the MBTA were not trolley routes (except the 57 and 39 routes...).
Scott Moore
Robert Coe wrote:
> I don't remember limited hours per se, but towards the end the station
> was unmanned and could be entered only if you already had a token. My
> experience wasn't extensive, but I don't recall ever being on a car that
> didn't stop at Adams. And I have absolutely no recollection of that
> alleged loop, whose existence has been attested to by people more
> knowledgeable than I. (There was, of course, a second track through
> Adams: the outbound side of the inner pair through North Station and
> Haymarket that terminated at the "Brattle St" loop mentioned above. I
> never saw it used.)
There *was* a second inner loop that went only to Adams Square - but was
never used in passenger (any?) service. The track configuration went
something like this:
(Map not to scale)
S S N N
B B B B
|XX| |XX|
|XX| |XX| Haymarket
|XX| |XX|
\ | | /
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
/ /| | |
/ / | | |
/ / | | |
S S S N N
B B B B B
/ / | | |
/ / | | |
/ / | | |
/ / | | |
/ / | | \
/ / | |XX|
/ / | |XX|
/ / | |XX| Adams Square
/ / | |XX|
| | / |XX|
| | | |XX|
\ \____________\_/ /
\ XXXXXXXX /
\XXXXX__________/
\ /Scollay
| |
| |
To Park Street
Scott Moore
Robert Coe wrote:
> I was surprised, the other evening, to discover how much the ongoing
> construction at North Station is apparently going to impact Haymarket
> station. Does anyone have any information as to what permanent changes,
> if any, will be made to the station's configuration?
The southbound (to Park Street) track will cut across the old Haymarket
station on a 30-45 degree angle. The Northbound (to Lechmere) track
will go through what once was the dividing wall between the Orange Line
(pre-Haymarket North Extension) and the Green Line.
Both tracks will use the former Orange Line portals to access the new
incline.
Exile on Market Street
> The southbound (to Park Street) track will cut across the old Haymarket
> station on a 30-45 degree angle. The Northbound (to Lechmere) track
> will go through what once was the dividing wall between the Orange Line
> (pre-Haymarket North Extension) and the Green Line.
>
> Both tracks will use the former Orange Line portals to access the new
> incline.
I thought that the underground segment was being extended north from its
present terminus for a bit (and a new subway station added with it). Is
the incline just for cars terminating at North Station, or what? Fill me
in, please.
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Univ of Pennsylvania, News & Public Affairs 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"When they're after your ass, answer the phone."
------Former US Senator Alan Simpson (R-Wyo.), on dealing with the press--
Bill Duncan
In article <smiths-2101...@smiths.admin.upenn.edu>, smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) writes:
|> In article <32E49D...@lynx.neu.edu>, scm...@lynx.neu.edu wrote:
|>
|>
|> > The southbound (to Park Street) track will cut across the old Haymarket
|> > station on a 30-45 degree angle. The Northbound (to Lechmere) track
|> > will go through what once was the dividing wall between the Orange Line
|> > (pre-Haymarket North Extension) and the Green Line.
|> >
|> > Both tracks will use the former Orange Line portals to access the new
|> > incline.
|>
|> I thought that the underground segment was being extended north from its
|> present terminus for a bit (and a new subway station added with it). Is
|> the incline just for cars terminating at North Station, or what? Fill me
|> in, please.
Are there any resources for finding out what's going on as far as long
range plans for the MBTA?
--
Any comments or statements made are not necessarily those of
Fidelity Investments, its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
--
Bill Duncan
bi...@ripag1.fmr.com
Ron Newman
In article <32E3C0...@tiac.net>, mic...@ties.org wrote:
> Scott Moore wrote:
> > One of these books has an image of a Type 3 (the same cars as the
> > present Green Line snow plows) in passenger service bound for Clarendon
> > Square at North Station.
>
> Would it be a valid assumption that this is the current destination of
> the 89 bus, the Clarendon Hill layover facility at Broadway and Rt 16 in
> Somerville? That whole area is full of trolley tracks just under the
> pavement...
Clarendon Hill is now the endpoint of three buses:
#87 (Lechmere - Clarendon Hill via Somerville Avenue)
#88 (Lechmere - Clarendon Hill via Highland Avenue)
#89 (Sullivan - Clarendon Hill via Broadway)
The #87 is extended to Arlington Center during the day on weekdays.
Your photo would seem to confirm that streetcars once ran from
the downtown subway to Clarendon Hill without the need to transfer
at Lechmere. Does it show the car on the North Station elevated, or in the
Canal Street surface station?
Jonathan White
Exile on Market Street wrote:
>
> In article <32E49D...@lynx.neu.edu>, scm...@lynx.neu.edu wrote:
>
> > The southbound (to Park Street) track will cut across the old Haymarket
> > station on a 30-45 degree angle. The Northbound (to Lechmere) track
> > will go through what once was the dividing wall between the Orange Line
> > (pre-Haymarket North Extension) and the Green Line.
> >
> > Both tracks will use the former Orange Line portals to access the new
> > incline.
>
> I thought that the underground segment was being extended north from its
> present terminus for a bit (and a new subway station added with it). Is
> the incline just for cars terminating at North Station, or what? Fill me
> in, please.
>
> Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
What Scott is describing here is the temporary alignment. In order to
build the subway north of Haymarket, the MBTA will have to demolish the
incline up to the elevated and the surface station at North Station
(Canal Street). To provide access up to the elevated, the T had to build
a new temporary ramp east of the existing one. The ramp is pretty much
directly above the Orange Line subway, actually in the same general area
as the old Orange Line ramp demolished in the 1970s. To get to the ramp,
the track is being realigned north of Haymarket so that the cars come
out of the subway and onto the ramp up to the elevated right where the
old Orange Line used to. It then swings west above Causeway Street and
joins the existing elevated.
Once the temporary alignment opens (probably by spring 1997), the old
ramp and surface terminal will be demolished and construction of the new
subway station will begin at that site. When everything is done a
million years from now, the Haymarket portal will be gone, as will the
elevated. The subway will run beyond North Station to a new portal near
the Registry Building on Nashua Street, and a ramp will carry the line
up to the Lechmere Viaduct, which will be retained due to its status as
an historical landmark.
Jon White
Boston
Ron Newman
In article <smiths-2101...@smiths.admin.upenn.edu>,
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
> In article <32E49D...@lynx.neu.edu>, scm...@lynx.neu.edu wrote:
> > The southbound (to Park Street) track will cut across the old Haymarket
> > station on a 30-45 degree angle. The Northbound (to Lechmere) track
> > will go through what once was the dividing wall between the Orange Line
> > (pre-Haymarket North Extension) and the Green Line.
> >
> > Both tracks will use the former Orange Line portals to access the new
> > incline.
>
> I thought that the underground segment was being extended north from its
> present terminus for a bit (and a new subway station added with it). Is
> the incline just for cars terminating at North Station, or what?
Yes, the purpose of all this construction is to extend the underground
Green Line under the old Boston Garden and new Fleet Center to a new
portal north of the Fleet Center, where the Green Line will emerge
and join the existing elevated. There will be an underground
"superstation" under the Fleet Center serving both the Green and
Orange Lines, set up so that an inbound commuter can wait on a single platform
for either an Orange Line or Green Line train.
To build all this, the MBTA needs to demolish the existing incline
north of Haymarket, and they're building a new temporary incline
slightly to the east of the current one. When the new tunnel opens,
the temporary incline will be demolished, along with the entire
Causeway Street and Lowell Street elevateds.
Michael J. Saletnik
Exile on Market Street wrote:
> present terminus for a bit (and a new subway station added with it). Is
> in, please.
The present work is temporary, for a temporary structure to be used
while the permanent structure is built. Visit
http://www.tiac.net/users/icarus/north_station for pictures and more
information.
Anyone have that color cross-section of the "superstation" ? It used to
hang in the case on the mezzanine (Orange) level of North Station, but
it's gone now.
Michael J. Saletnik
Now - to do all this, you need to demolish the old Garden to connect the
existing tunnel under the Fleet Center to the proposed tunnel under the
existing station.
So why did a brand-new Blockbuster Video just open up in the old Garden?
m
Ron Newman
In article <rnewman-1701...@mfd-dial1-17.cybercom.net>,
rne...@cybercom.net (Ron Newman) wrote:
> I'd like to know how many branches were once attached to what is now
> known as the Green Line of the (Boston) MBTA.
I got many e-mail replies to this query, besides those that
were posted to Usenet:
--------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:13:48 -0500 (EST)
From: rts...@aol.com (RTSPCC)
Subject: Re: MBTA Green Line - how many branches did
In 1897 there was no Red or Orange line. Streetcars were through routed
from all points into the Tremont St. subway. Many of the bus routes that
terminate at Red or Orange line stations today were once car lines, that
at somepoint ran through to the subway. routes included Grove Hall via
Warren, Grove Hall via Blue, Ashmont via Dudley, Franklin Park via Blue,
Chestnut Hill via Boylston, Milton via Dorchester Ave., Belmont via
Concord, Waverly via Trapelo, Watertown via Mt Auburn, Arlington Heights
via Mass Ave., Spring Hill via Inman, City Point via Broadway, Malden Sq.
via Main, Salem St. via Broadway, etc, etc, etc, . It would take a book to
describe all of the route combinations run into the Tremont St. subway
between 1897 and 1901. There were no signals in the Tremont Street subway,
but since 15 mph was considered fast service for a streetcar then, it was
o.k. to just have a constant flow of 25 foot long little streetcars
entering the tunnel from many, many, routes. When the Washington St. El
opened in 1901, an enormouse number of routes were truncated at Sullivan
Sq. to the North and Dudley to the South. Despite the requirement to
transfer, this was considered a vast improvement becase the rapid transit
line was much faster than streetcars plodding their way along surface
streets to the Tremont St. tunnel entrances.The same thing happened when
the Cambridge Tunnel open, and carlines were cut-back to Harvard Sq.
station.
I will give you a run-down of carlines post 1932 that ran into the subway
that don't today:
1935 Eastern Mass discontinues through service to Brattle Loop from
Woodlawn, Lynn, Salem, Beachmont this was after the Chelsea St. bridge was
condemmed. The Woodlawn route was taken over by the Boston El in 1936,
when they bought the Chelsea division of the Eastern Mass. It is route 111
today. The Lynn and Salem routes are today routes 450 and the Lynn-Boston
portion of route 455. The Beachmont line is bus 119, also taken over by
the EL in 1936.
03/05/38-Dudley-North Station via Washington st streetcar replaced by
Dudley-Dover&Tremont bus. This bus was discontinued in Feb 1942 as a
war-time conservation effort.This was not the 49 Northampton-Kneeland bus,
which was an earlier conversion.
Also, Brookline Village-Park St. via Huntington Ave. cars were replaced by
Brigham Circle-Park St. extras.
04/03/48-Sullivan-Brattle via Main St. streetcar replaced by route 92 bus
07/02/49-Sullivan-Brattle via Bunker Hill streetcar replaced by rote 93
bus
12/05/53 City Point-North Station streetcar replaced by 9 City
Point-Broadway&Tremont bus
06/15/56 Egleston-Lenox St. portion of Egleston-North Station line
converted to 43 bus
11/18/61 Lenox-North Station line replaced by 43 bus,
Boylston-Broadway&Trmont shuttle cars ran to 04/06/62
You already know the Watertown and Arborway dates.
------------------
From: RTS...@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:37:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: MBTA Green Line - how many branches did
In a message dated 97-01-19 00:18:05 EST, you write:
>>1935 Eastern Mass discontinues through service to Brattle Loop from
>>Woodlawn, Lynn, Salem, Beachmont this was after the Chelsea St. bridge was
>>condemmed. The Woodlawn route was taken over by the Boston El in 1936,
>>when they bought the Chelsea division of the Eastern Mass.
>When the Boston El took these over, did they maintain them as
>streetcar routes, or convert them to bus (either electric or diesel)?
Two car lines I forgot to mention to Brattle were Revere Beach Loop-Brattle
via Beach St., and Revere Beach Loop-Brattle via Revere St. (what later
became the 116 and 117 bus routes). Like the routes to Woodlawn, Beachmont,
Lynn, and Salem these were cut-back to Chelsea Sq. when the bridge was
condemmed to streetcars. The Eastern Mass did begin a City Sq.-Chelsea Sq.
bus route as a replacement.
The El bought the Chelsea division on 06/10/36.
It included the City Sq.Chelsea Sq. bus and the streetcar routes from Chelsea
Sq to Woodlawn , Malden Sq (to later become the 112), Revere via Beach,
Revere via Revere St. and Revere Beach Loop to Gladstone St.(now Suffolk
Downs) The EL began through routing the Revere Beach routes with their
existing East Boston carlines creating the Revere Beach-Maverick via Beach,
via Revere, and via Ocean Ave lines.
The Beachmont car was quickly converted by the EL to gas bus on 10/10/1936.
That is the 119 bus. 0n 05/08/1937, the City Sq.-Chelsea Sq. bus was extended
to Woodlawn, and Woodlawn-Chelsea Sq. cars were discontinued. The Eastern
Mass continued running the Chelsea Sq.-Lynn and Chelsea Sq.-Salem routes to
1937 when they were replaced by bus service through to Haymarket via the then
new road tunnel. These bus routes are the 450 and the Lynn-Boston portion of
the 455. Bus service from Lynn to Boston via the Lynnway (routes 441/442) did
not begin until 1940 after the BRB&L shut-down.
The Revere Beach-Maverick streetcar lines were all converted to trolley bus
on 01/05/1952, the same day the Blue Line extension from Maverick to Orient
Heights opened. Trackless trolleys were also introduced from Woodlawn to Wood
Isalnd station. Between Woodlawn and Chelsea Sq. they ran side by side with
the 111 Woodlawn-City Sq. gas and (by this time) diesel buses. The East
Boston/Chelsea trackless lines were converted to diesel bus in 1961, 04/01
for the Woodlawn route, and 09/09 for the Beach St. and Revere St routes.
> >Also, Brookline Village-Park St. via Huntington Ave. cars were replaced by
>>Brigham Circle-Park St. extras.
> Was there a branch at Huntington and South Huntington that allowed
>cars to continue west to Brookline Village? Where did these cars
>loop or otherwise turn around in Brookline Village?
This was all that remained of the Cypress St and Chestnut Hill carlines
(todays route 60 bus). These routes could run to Boston via Brookline Ave,
Ipswich and Boylston (part of today's route 55) or via Huntington Ave. The
outer portion of the lines was converted to bus in 1932 (Chestnut
Hill-Kenmore and Cypress St. Kenmore). The Brookline Village-Park St. service
was retained as a rush-hour service. It shared the same tracks as the
Allston-Dudley carline from Brookline Village to Huntington&South Huntington.
The Allston-Dudley line was converted to diesel bus on 09/10/38. It didn't
make sense to maintain the track from Brookline Village to Huntington just
for rush-hour trippers, so the service was cut-back to Brigham Circle. The
cars just crossed back at Brookline Village, no loop.
>>04/03/48-Sullivan-Brattle via Main St. streetcar replaced by route 92 bus
>>07/02/49-Sullivan-Brattle via Bunker Hill streetcar replaced by rote 93
>>bus
>I assume that "Brattle" is the same station as "Scollay Square"?
Yes, just one part of the same station. The loop is still known as the
Brattle loop, even though Brattle St. does no exist anymore.
> >Boylston-Broadway&Trmont shuttle cars ran to 04/06/62
>From which side of Boylston station did these shuttles run?
>How did passengers get from there to the other side of
> Boylston station? >>
One Dallas car ran on each track. The pedestrian passageway was still open at
that time connecting inbound to outbound. The passageway was later closed
because it had become a bathroom and hang-out for vagrants.
-----------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:40:41 -0500 (EST)
From: wid...@aol.com (Widecab)
Subject: Re: Green Line Branches
Ron:
I think you e-mailed about the early Green Line "book".
This is not a book in the truest sense of the word. There was no
publisher and it wouldn't be found at Barnes & Noble. By "book" this
means route books, which were kept by each BERy Division.
It is not for the novice, unless you have an intimate knowledge of
operations on the West End & BERy, as well as a keen geographic sense of
Boston's history,
The records are helter-skelter, incomplete and very confusing. You have
routes mixed together among subway and non-subway (sometimes hard to tell
even at that). Many were "extras" or "school trips", essentially all the
elements of surface transit in its familiar form.
What you have to undersand is the Tremont St. Subway wasn't designed as a
rapid transit line, it was just a way to get knots of little streetcars
off Tremont St., so they wouldn't block access to the Common forever.
Only after the nature of operations was changed in 1922 are there any
decent records, and does it become somewhat akin to the "Green Line" as
its been known for 30 years. Ergo, the suggestion you not worry about
1897 & so forth.. Just be content to know that many routes ran into the
subway from all points of the compass. Most confounding of all an unknown
number went THROUGH the subway (Roxbury to Malden, for instance) or
sometimes went either way depending on traffic or direction of travel. In
all cases, these are "snapshots", not linear histories. There IS NO
COMPLETE record; only generalities.
Widecab
-------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:46:32 -0500 (EST)
From: rts...@aol.com (RTSPCC)
Subject: Re: MBTA Green Line - how many branches did i
you wrote:
"There used to be trolley tracks almost everywhere, but not all the
streetcars on all those tracks ever fed into what is now the
Green Line tunnel. So yes, you could ride a trolley down College Avenue,
but could you ride one non-stop from Scollay Square to there?"
No, the Arlington-Sullivan via Medford Hillside line was built late,
opening on August 31, 1901. From day 1 the cars only ran to the then brand
new Sullivan Sq. elevated terminal not the Tremont St. subway. When the
Medford Hillside line was converted to bus on 07/09/1932, the bus line was
rerouted to Lechmere instead of Sullivan. This bus route remains as route
80 Arlington Center-Lechmere. So not only could you not ride a streetcar
from College Ave. to the Tremont St. subway, you couldn't even ride one to
Lechmere. The bus route from Medford Sq. to Mass Ave. (todays routes 94
and 96) began as a new bus route on 05/11/1925 and was never a carline.
The carlines from Harvard to Lechmere, Clarendon Hill via Somerville, and
Clarendon Hill via Highland did run through to the subway. They ran to
Brattle loop or a cross-back at the Tremont&Broadway portal (the routes
changed from time to time). On July 10, 1922 a prepayment transfer station
was built at Lechmere. Through revenue service was discontinued between
the subway and Harvard via Cambridge and the two Clarendon Hill lines.
Passengers had to transfer at Lechmere to lines coming from the subway.
The reason this change came was delays on the surface lines were causing
delays in the subway. By splitting the routes with a transfer at Lechmere,
it was hoped to improved schedules and reduce delays in the subway. A
track connection did remain between these lines and the route to the
subway, and non-revenue transfer moves of equipment could be made. The
Harvard-Lechmere line was converted to trackless trolley on 04/11/1936.
The two Clarendon Hill lines were converted on 11/08/1941. All three lines
were converted to diesel bus on 03/30/1963
----------------------
From: Wid...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 05:54:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Green Line Branches
>>Many of the routes below with a "Date Started: ???" began electric
>>operation shortly after 1889. Many of them were horse car routes well
>>before 1889, so determining an exact starting date for each of the lines
>>might be difficult. Horsecars in Boston were gone by about 1900, and no
>>horsecar routes were ever operated in the Subway.
Widecab replies:
A handful of routes began as electric operations, ONE of which was an
early version of the present operation to Cleveland Circle. Most surface
lines started life as horsecars; some were never electrified. The last
horsecar line operated by the BERy (Marlborough St.) shut down, I believe,
in 1900 as stated.
> "A" Watertown branch
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Kenmore subway: 1932>>>
Strongly suggest you procure a copy of "Boston's Main Line El: The Early
Years, 1879-1908" from BSRA or another source. One of the appendices
deals with evolution of the present Green Line and answers almost all of
these questions.
> Service ended: June 21, 1969 - replaced by #57 bus
> (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?) <<<
This is not the right way to approach these things. Commonwealth, Beacon
and what became the Watertown line WERE select branches of what was then
an immense street railway empire. As such, they enjoyed no more
prominence than a local route in Malden or Dorchester as far as the El was
concerned. In fact(!) what later became the (E) Arborway line didn't
exist until 1924, when it was pieced together from trackage used by other
existing routes. What I suggest you do is procure a copy of Boston's
street railway maps from the BSRA. These encompass various years from
1887 to 1973, with an additional package for 1986. Then, to fully
comprehend routings, you will need some kind of early street map to see
the rich variety of "Squares", "Circles", Crossings" or "Corners" to which
these routes were bound.
>>Yes, Watertown via N. Beacon & Comm., Watertown via Arsenal, Western, &
>>Mass. Ave., & Newton Corner via Watertown, Mt. Auburn and Mass. Ave.
>>There were likely others before 1907.
>>Watertown cars (on the just recently abandoned route) were signed up
>>Nonantum Square if I'm reading this correctly...<<
Before there was a Watertown carhouse, the big meeting point with
Middlesex & Boston was Nonantum Sq., today known as (drum roll
please!)...NEWTON CORNER!
>>...There was service to the Allston Carhouse which used the Beacon
>>Street line from Boston to Coolidge Corner, and a branch from the
>>present Boston College terminal also used part of the Beacon Street line
>>from Chestnut Hill Ave to Washington Street. There may have been more,
>>but this book only goes back to 1907.
As long as you brought it up, the line was #921 from Park Street to Newton
Line (now Lake St./Boston College) via Huntington, Brookline Village,
Washington St. (Brookline), Washington Sq., Beacon, Chestnut Hill and
Commonwealth. How's that for going around the world!
Also don't forget the Allston-Dudley car line CROSSED Coolidge Corner until
1938.
> "E" Huntington Avenue to Arborway
> Service started: ???
> Began running through Huntington Avenue subway: Feb. 16, 1941
> Last car to Arborway ran December 26, 1985, replaced by #39 bus;
> streetcar service now runs only to Heath Street loop
> (did this ever have additional branches on the surface?)
This WAS an additional branch (see above). To simplify things for purpose
of this discussion, the "old" route started at Jamaica Plain carhouse (or
loop) off South St., where the public housing is now. The "old Arborway
Line" was actually routed onto the Columbus Ave. corridor by continuing up
Centre St. past South Huntington Ave. to Jackson Sq. As you can probably
guess, these traded places a time or two.
After 1924 the present routes are clarified: Jamaica-Dudley (now the 41
bus) and Arborway-Park Street (now the 39 bus).
>>There were a variety of branches off of the Huntington Ave line in 1907,
>>including car to: Oak Square, Allston Carhouse and Newton Line (Boston
>>College). There were others as well before 1907.
In the system's earliest years, it was common for some routes from Roxbury
and Dorchester to follow a route into Park Street via Northampton, Mass.
Ave., Huntington and Boylston to the Public Gardens Incline. There were
also routes to Brookline which went straight at the South Huntington turn.
> Tremont Street to Egelston Square
> Service started: ???
> Cut back to Lenox Street in the South End: ? sometime in the 1950s ?
> Service ended: November 1961? - replaced by #43 bus
>>Cutback Egleston to Lenox Street: 1955.
Lenox Street was used as a carhouse at first, then as a short-turn loop
throughout. Cars were turned there "permanently" in June, 1956 with
supplementary buses from Egleston to the Broadway & Tremont portal.
>>Lenox to Broadway Portal: November 1961
November 18, 1961.
>>Eliminated Completely: Early (April?) 1962.
Shuttle using Dallas car dropped April 6, 1962.
> Broadway to City Point
> Service started: ???
> Service ended: 1954? - replaced by #9 bus
>>I believe that this service survived until 1955, when work on the
>>Broadway Bridge was required.
Service was first interrupted July 12, 1952 by closure of the Broadway
Bridge across the Fort Point Channel (the one that's still there!!),
during which time Type 5's shuttled from City Point to Broadway Station.
Single-tracked operations resumed August 9, but the die was already cast,
service was unreliable and the thing was finally put out of its misery on
March 2, 1953. Patrons were encouraged to take competing (and prompt)
Type 5 shuttles to Broadway Station through late '52 and early '53. On
March 2, a replacement bus operated from City Point to Broadway & Tremont,
from which Type 5's (what else?) shuttled to Canal St. Loop. This lasted
until December 5, 1953, when the Type 5 shuttles were dropped. The bus
went to Broadway & Tremont until the 1970's!
> I know that what is now the Canal Street stub terminal at North Station
> was once just a surface stop on the way to Charlestown, following what
> are now the routes of the #92 and #93 buses. Did these
> cars use the old Warren Street bridge, or the Charlestown bridge?
>>I believe they both used the Charlestown Bridge. However, the last
>>scheduled streetcar service into the Brattle loop (from outside of the
>>present system) was 1955. By that time, a loop had been constructed at
>>Canal Street, with tracks which lead off under the El to Sullivan Square
>>and then went to Everett Station. This track was still used for shop
>>moves from the Green Line to the Everett shops, but I don't recall when
>>they stopped this operation (my guess is 1963, when the Mystic River
>>Bridge on Broadway near Sullivan Square was rebuilt). The loop at Canal
>>Street was replaced with the stub-end tracks in 1977 (the LRVs couldn't
>>make the turn around that loop).
First, Canal St. had always contained a loop from the time it opened in
1898 until the stubs were created in 1977. It was used as the main
terminal for many routes, including pretty much everything which entered
through the Broadway & Tremont Incline.
The easterly tracks went out onto Causeway St. and turned east and west
to fan BERy surface lines continuing to Charlestown, East Cambridge or
Somerville, and Eastern Mass. routes to points further out in the
suburbs. Within the subway, separate cash fares (or transfers) were
required to ride cars on inner or outer tracks through Haymarket station
and into Brattle Loop. The South End/Roxbury/JP, etc. cars switched from
Canal St. to the outer tracks and went through the pre-paid subway stops
as far as Boylston, then out the incline or wherever.
The Lechmere Viaduct replaced the "Cragie Bridge" route from North Station
to Lechmere Sq., which found cars on the surface in front of where the
Science Museum is today, in 1912. These cars went on to points in East
Cambridge, Somerville and (perhaps) Arlington. For many years after this,
there were still several variations of through routes via Charlestown; the
most stubborn being a line between Sullivan Sq. and Dudley St. via the
Tremont St. Subway, which lasted well into the 1920's. Generally, through
cars for points beyond Sullivan Square (Salem St. carhouse...uh, Fellsway
Garage, for instance) used Main St.; the Bunker Hill cars ended at
Sullivan Square. Meanwhile, Eastern Mass. (nee Bay State, Boston &
Northern, etc.) continued across the decrepit old Chelsea St. Bridge to
Central Sq. and points about the "North Shore". This was the chief means
of reaching Lynn or Salem (besides the B & M), for example.
As the story unfolds, the Chelsea Bridge was essentially shut down for
good in early 1935, permitting the EMSR to do what it always wanted to
anyway and establish the "Arrow" bus lines system out of its sparkling new
terminal at Haymarket Sq. After this, there was a "franchise"
(inconsistent, seldom seen) shuttle with two 4300-series double-end cars
from Mystic Wharf (Boston side of the closed Chelsea Bridge) to Brattle
Loop which lasted a little over a year. This left the two Sullivan Sq,
lines (Main & Bunker Hill). These generally used the Warren St. Bridge
(EMSR and through cars had usually used the Charlestown Bridge) unless the
Charles River plain was flooded, which happened often. Main St. died some
time in '48 (replaced by a bus from Sullivan to City Sq.), then Bunker
Hill in July 1949 (buses on both routes from Sullivan to North Station).
Originally, there was NO replacement streetcar service from Brattle Loop,
and riders were expected to transfer from the replacement buses to the El
at the nearest station (North Station, City Sq., Thompson or Sullivan).
HOWEVER, at this time the MTA instituted transfer differentials of 5в as
part of a back-door fare increase. This served to isolate the Townies,
who were now forced to pay an extra nickel just to reach Boston.
Politics got involved, and a lone Type 5 used as a "free shuttle" was
begun from Canal St. loop, outside the pre-payment station where it met
inbound buses, to Brattle some time (probably September) in 1949. This
way, inbound riders could pay the local bus fare (10в, I think) and get to
Brattle for nothing extra. But, unless they could walk from Brattle to
destination they STILL had to cough up the extra five coppers to get into
the subway at Scollay. Shuttle operations were reportedly inconsistent
and the riders impatient, so it's a good bet that habits changed and the
locals wound up surrendering their nickel someplace after all. In 1950
(perhaps in response to changing rider patterns?...Oh My God I just quoted
from the MBTA Management Decision Handbook...HELP!), Charlestown buses
were rerouted off the Charlestown Bridge to Haymarket via North Washington
St., thus ignoring North Station entirely. By early '51, with most bus
riders transferring elsewhere, the shuttle was rendered more or less moot,
but apparently retained for political reasons. At times the story goes,
its lucky operator would park his Type 5 on the middle tracks just past
Haymarket station and snooze, because nobody noticed if he was keeping his
schedule or not. Anyhow, this situation couldn't last, and it was
officially cut to PM rush only by early '52, then dropped altogether at
the end of the year.
Use of the Warren St. Bridge ended with Charlestown service in '49 and
thereafter only the Charlestown Bridge and Main St. tracks (and one track
at that!) were used to reach Everett Shops for equipment moves. This
lasted until 1962, after which all cars were trucked out of the ramp at
Lechmere (another story for another time).
> Did any cars from the subway go to Chelsea or other points besides
> Sullivan Square in Charlestown?
>>Yes, but the closing of the old Mystic River Bridge (which was replaced
>>by the Tobin) cancelled trolley services between Chelsea and the subway.
>>The old drawbridge was a troublesome machine toward the end, and got
>>stuck on several occasions before trolley service was discontinued.
In the good old days (pre-1934) there were a number of through EMSR lines
to the Chelsea Division, which after years of public debate was taken over
by the BERy in May, 1936. Most surviving lines were configured to serve
the East Boston Tunnel terminal at Maverick; others eventually replaced by
bus or trackless. These routes mainly served Chelsea, Revere and Everett,
including Revere Beach, to which the El had tended to run through only
during the peak summer months for many years after 1907 (using EMSR men
past Gladstone St. loop; now the site of [ta da!]...Suffolk Downs).
Prior to conversion of the Lynn Division in 1932, there had been through
cars from Brattle to most North Shore points served out of Haymarket by
MBTA buses today (Lynn, Salem, etc.). Waaay back, there were through cars
from the Lawrence & Lowell Divisions to Brattle as well. These were
turned at Sullivan Square when it opened in 1901. There was also
Lexington & Boston service from Brattle in the earliest days.
> And did streetcars always terminate at Lechmere, or did they once
> continue beyond it into Cambridge and Somerville?
>>The viaduct was opened on 6/1/1912 allowing through service to North
>>Station.
Lines in June, 1912 from Brattle (some later from Broadway & Tremont) to
Clarendon Hill and Harvard Sq.; other points in Cambridge. There was no
Lechmere station as such. Cars ramped off the viaduct to Cambridge St. or
the Northern Artery (O'Brien Hwy.) and stopped at curbside. There was no
such thing as Science Park either of course.
>>Lechmere station was made (enclosed) 7/10/1922.
This is when the prepayment terminal we know today was established. At
this time the Clarendon Hill lines and Harvard cars were cutback as
feeders, and the operation of 3-car Center-Entrance cars began. So dawned
the era of the modern GREEN LINE.
>>One of these books has an image of a Type 3 (the same cars as the
>>present Green Line snow plows) in passenger service bound for Clarendon
>>Square at North Station./////]]]]]
Widecab
Phil Gustafson
In article <32E49C...@lynx.neu.edu>,
Scott Moore <scm...@lynx.neu.edu> wrote:
[Re: Old trackage between Haymarket and Scollay]
>
>There *was* a second inner loop that went only to Adams Square - but was
>never used in passenger (any?) service. The track configuration went
>something like this:
>
>(Map not to scale)
>
>
> S S N N
> B B B B
> |XX| |XX|
> |XX| |XX| Haymarket
> |XX| |XX|
> \ | | /
> | | | |
...
> / /| | |
> / / | | |
> / / | | |
> S S S N N
> B B B B B
> / / | | |
...
> / / | | \
> / / | |XX|
> / / | |XX|
> / / | |XX| Adams Square
> / / | |XX|
> | | / |XX|
> | | | |XX|
> \ \____________\_/ /
> \ XXXXXXXX /
> \XXXXX__________/
> \ /Scollay
> | |
> To Park Street
>
There was an extra loop there, used at least by Eastern Mass. St. Ry.
cars that came into Haymarket way back when, but I thought it was north
of Adams. As a teenage railfan on his way to Science Park in 1960 or
so, I'd catch glances of an old, but still lit, tunnel at about the
location of the last ... in the drawing above.
The Brattle Loop was closed off from the main line at that time by a
firm iron fence at Adams. The station seemed to make no sense, since
the walk to Scollay or Haymarket was so short and the one-way service
would benefit so few.
The rambling single track from North Station to Everett lasted till
about 1970. I hope that the cars at Everett in 1970 are mostlly museum
pieces rather than razorblades now.
Phil
--
Phil Gustafson "There's nothing wrong with unknowleged
ph...@panix.com opinions, except when they directly
pgu...@eng.sun.com contradict the facts" CLM Kandolf
Scott Moore
Phil Gustafson wrote:
> There was an extra loop there, used at least by Eastern Mass. St. Ry.
> cars that came into Haymarket way back when, but I thought it was north
> of Adams. As a teenage railfan on his way to Science Park in 1960 or
> so, I'd catch glances of an old, but still lit, tunnel at about the
> location of the last ... in the drawing above.
The Eastern Mass used the Brattle Loop. The loop at Adams was
apparently never used for passenger car service, and the track within
the boundaries of Adams station was removed in 1901. The northern end
of the track (up to Adams) was retained until 1942 for work car storage.
(See: Boston's Main Line El: The Formative Years 1879-1908 by George
Chiasson for more information on the Tremont Street Subway.)
>
> The Brattle Loop was closed off from the main line at that time by a
> firm iron fence at Adams.
Much of this dates back to the early operation of the subway, when the
cars using the Brattle Loop had fares paid on the car. The thru-tracks
(outer tracks) were in the pre-payment fare collection where your fare
was required before you entered the platform area.
Access to the Brattle loop was closed in 1952 (by this time all regular
streetcar service on the loop had terminated) and the station was open
on Weekdays only after X-mas 1953. The station was officially closed on
October 28, 1963.
> The station seemed to make no sense, since
> the walk to Scollay or Haymarket was so short and the one-way service
> would benefit so few.
For those of you who are unfamiliar with the location of Adams Square
station, it was somewhere within the present confines of the sub-surface
parking lot at Boston City Hall. Few if any remnants of the station
exist, save for abandoned tunnel leads, etc.
>
> The rambling single track from North Station to Everett lasted till
> about 1970. I hope that the cars at Everett in 1970 are mostlly museum
> pieces rather than razorblades now.
Heck, some of those cars are probably still in service at Mattapan!
(see: http://members.aol.com/netransit/private/roster/lr_rost1.html for
more info).
Actually, there are several Boston PCC cars that still exist. Some in
service (still), some in Museums, and some (many of the wartimes that
were rebuilt in the late 1970s and early 1980s) are awaiting sale from a
group in Pennsylvania.
Robert Coe
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:25:43 -0500, rne...@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
wrote:
: In article <rnewman-1701...@mfd-dial1-17.cybercom.net>,
They didn't really have a lot of choice. The El opened before the
Washington St tunnel was completed, so the El trains were temporarily
routed through the Tremont St tunnel instead. This temporary conversion
of the outer tracks of the Tremont St tunnel to high-platform rapid
transit severed the connection for through-running streetcars, which had
to be turned back at Scollay Square (Brattle St) southbound or Park St
(northbound). I've forgotten how long this arrangement lasted, but I
think it was at least a couple of years.
(For those not familiar with the relevant geography, the Tremont St
tunnel was effectively four tracks wide north of Scollay Square and
south of Park St, but had only two tracks in between. Why they built it
that way is probably lost in the sands of time, but subsequent
generations of thansit operators - and riders - have had ample
opportunity to rue that decision ever since.)
Andrew Masin
b...@1776.COM (Robert Coe) wrote:
>(For those not familiar with the relevant geography, the Tremont St
>tunnel was effectively four tracks wide north of Scollay Square and
>south of Park St, but had only two tracks in between. Why they built it
>that way is probably lost in the sands of time, but subsequent
>generations of thansit operators - and riders - have had ample
>opportunity to rue that decision ever since.)
A couple of old friends once pointed this out as an example of how
Boston was different from New York. Being Bostonians, they were
reasonably happy with the arrangement.
Of course they were buffs, like myself, and not professionals.
Andrew.
Scott Moore
Robert Coe wrote:
> They didn't really have a lot of choice. The El opened before the
> Washington St tunnel was completed, so the El trains were temporarily
> routed through the Tremont St tunnel instead. This temporary conversion
> of the outer tracks of the Tremont St tunnel to high-platform rapid
> transit severed the connection for through-running streetcars, which had
> to be turned back at Scollay Square (Brattle St) southbound or Park St
> (northbound). I've forgotten how long this arrangement lasted, but I
> think it was at least a couple of years.
>
> (For those not familiar with the relevant geography, the Tremont St
> tunnel was effectively four tracks wide north of Scollay Square and
> south of Park St, but had only two tracks in between. Why they built it
> that way is probably lost in the sands of time, but subsequent
> generations of thansit operators - and riders - have had ample
> opportunity to rue that decision ever since.)
The width of Tremont Street the proximity of the buildings (and their
pilings) and the burial grounds prevented the expansion of the Tremont
Street Subway to four-tracks between Park and Government Center.
Note that the "four-track" section north of Government Center was (and
is) two seperate tunnels until converging at Haymarket (at the portal).
This arrangement was necessitated because of the layout of the streets
circa 1897. The four-track section south of Park Street is located
under the Boston Common - the only place where there was sufficient room
to construct a four-track section of subway using the cut-and-cover
method (the entire Tremont Street Subway was built using cut-and cover).
Adding two tracks between Park and Government Center has long since been
deemed too expensive and too difficult to be feasible.
- Scott
Scott Moore
Robert Coe wrote:
- Scott