Grand Central Terminal open all night?
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Terminal is not. I believe this change was made back in the early
1970s / late 1960s as a result of continuing urban problems. Would
anyone know accurately when GCT ceased being open all night and the
impact on remaining passenger trains?
Also, the Long Island Rail Road operates all night today. Did the
commuter trains of the NYC/NH (in what now is under Metro North)
operate all night back when GCT was open all night?
Thanks!
william welner
Commuter RR to Albany and beyond.
Back around the early 1990's Amtrak started to run its trains from Penn
Station along the Westside Rail line across the Spiten Divel Drawbridge
and than on to the Hudson Line of Metro North Commuter RR to Albany and
beyond. Thus it became pointless to keep Grand Central Station open during
the wee early hours of the morning when there no are scheduled Metro North
Commuter trains operating at Grand Central Station .
I have no direct knowledge of the MTA decision,who owns and operates the
Station, but I assume closing the station saves operating costs.
Grand Central and Penn stations where originally owned and operated by 2
separate rail roads, than by the defunk Penn Central Railroad and would
assume Grand Central Station was open 24/7 when the Penn Central Railroad
went into bankruptcy back in the 1970's until Amtrak Service cease to run at
the station.
I do not have the answer to your question as to if Metro North, formerly
commuter NY Central or NH trains, ever operated all night long.
Since the MTA is a state agency, it would be a political decision to operate
round the clock Metro North Service, based on the need I guess.
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:1176840991.7...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Tester
<wwel...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Back around the early 1990's Amtrak started to run its trains from Penn
>Station along the Westside Rail line across the Spiten Divel Drawbridge
>and than on to the Hudson Line of Metro North Commuter RR to Albany and
>beyond.
Amtrak's trains to New Haven and on to Baaaahstun go through the Long
Island Railroad tunnel to Long Island City and Woodside and then via
the New York Connecting Railroad over the Hellgate Bridge to Ward's
Island.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
william welner wrote:
> Amtrak trains once operated from Grand Central Station along the Metro North
> Commuter RR to Albany and beyond.
I believe the closure of Grand Central Terminal overnight occured
before Amtrak existed. I believe it was in the early days of the Penn
Central, cira 1969-1970.
Adam H. Kerman
>I believe the closure of Grand Central Terminal overnight occured before
>Amtrak existed. I believe it was in the early days of the Penn Central,
>cira 1969-1970.
How do they keep people out of the tunnels?
Candide
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:1176840991.7...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
IIRC GCT is open from 530am to 130am the following day. How much more
open would it need to be considering Metro-North does't run 24 hours.
Candide
Jaap van Dorp
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in >
John Albert
<< Back around the early 1990's Amtrak started to run its trains from Penn
Station along the Westside Rail line across the Spiten Divel Drawbridge and
than on to the Hudson Line of Metro North Commuter RR to Albany and
beyond. Thus it became pointless to keep Grand Central Station open during
the wee early hours of the morning when there no are scheduled Metro North
Commuter trains operating at Grand Central Station >>
Grand Central "closed for the night" long before that came about.
For as long as I've been around the railroad (since 1979), the last trains out
of GCT were around 1.30am, after which the place re-opened to the public at
about 4.30-ish. I recall running that 1.31am local to New Haven a few times
myself... <g>
Even before I hired out, the trains stopped running after 1.30am. I can
remember missing the last train home a few times, and spending the night
waiting for the first departure of the morning sitting on the shut-down
escalators to the [then] PanAm building. This was in the late 60's, early 70's.
I'm _guessing_ that at some point they decided to (or, perhaps, were forced
to) formally close the building to the public during the period of New York
City's decline (the "pre-Rudy" era), pursuant to court rulings decreeing that
they couldn't arbitrarily kick the bums and homeless out. So after 1.30am,
they kicked EVERYbody out (got to be non-discriminatory, right?).
One could still get in, if you knew exactly _which_ door was left unlocked (I did).
The current MN public timetable shows a 1.49am departure for New Haven and a
1.53am local for Stamford. After that, nothing until 5.35am. I imagine the
Harlem/Hudson service has a similar "break" in service.
Penn Station, on the other hand, has always been open all night - partly
because the Long Island runs late (or early), and partly because of the Night
Owl and a few other late-night Amtrak trains (which I also ran quite a bit,
spent over a year on #66).
- John
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> IIRC GCT is open from 530am to 130am the following day. How much more
> open would it need to be considering Metro-North does't run 24 hours.
>
> Candide
To clarify my original question, did the commuter lines of the New
York Central and New Haven (what is now Metro North), once run 24
hours; thus giving a reason for GCT to be open all night?
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Grand Central "closed for the night" long before that came about.
>
> For as long as I've been around the railroad (since 1979), the last trains out
> of GCT were around 1.30am, after which the place re-opened to the public at
> about 4.30-ish. I recall running that 1.31am local to New Haven a few times
> myself... <g>
I believe the closing occured around 1969-1970.
> I'm _guessing_ that at some point they decided to (or, perhaps, were forced
> to) formally close the building to the public during the period of New York
> City's decline (the "pre-Rudy" era), pursuant to court rulings decreeing that
> they couldn't arbitrarily kick the bums and homeless out. So after 1.30am,
> they kicked EVERYbody out (got to be non-discriminatory, right?).
I understand that was the reason. However, under Penn Central
operation, which was a private company, they may have had more
discretion in ejecting non passengers. The Reading Company police
certainly did (kick out bums) at Reading Terminal in Philadelphia
before Conrail took over.
> The current MN public timetable shows a 1.49am departure for New Haven and a
> 1.53am local for Stamford. After that, nothing until 5.35am. I imagine the
> Harlem/Hudson service has a similar "break" in service.
I would then guess the terminal now closes at 2 am. I wonder if
passengers for the 5:35 am departure have to wait on the street until
the terminal opens at 5:30 or if perhaps they open it a little early.
> Penn Station, on the other hand, has always been open all night - partly
> because the Long Island runs late (or early), and partly because of the Night
> Owl and a few other late-night Amtrak trains (which I also ran quite a bit,
> spent over a year on #66).
The Long Island Rail Road runs all night and has done so for many
years. Has it always offered all night service? I wonder why the
LIRR runs all night while Metro North does not, but I suspect it's
because the LIRR is a much busier railroad serving a more developed
and economically diverse area.
In Philadelphia I don't remember the Pennsy and Reading commuter lines
ever running overnight. (There were many transit lines with owl
service, especially back in the day when the city had lots of
manufacturing.)
Joseph D. Korman
I checked my Hudson and Harlem timetables from 1967 (still NYC system).
Hudson had its last train leave Croton Harmon at about 100am with a
200am arrival at GCT. The Harlem had 100am, 300am, 400am and 500am
trains from White Plains.
The New Haven (NYNH&H) early 1968 had expresses at 100am and 300am from
Hew Haven.
I don't know when the MTA, CDOT and MNCR cut those trains out.
--
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hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> I checked my Hudson and Harlem timetables from 1967 (still NYC system).
> Hudson had its last train leave Croton Harmon at about 100am with a
> 200am arrival at GCT. The Harlem had 100am, 300am, 400am and 500am
> trains from White Plains.
>
> The New Haven (NYNH&H) early 1968 had expresses at 100am and 300am from
> Hew Haven.
Thanks for your post.
Ok, so now we know the NYC and NH both operated "owl" service in the
NYC commuter district.
I wonder if patronage would exist for such trains to operate these
days, as the LIRR does. Heck, instead of White Plains maybe even from
Brewster.
rsh...@gmail.com
Just guessing here, but it might have to do with maintainence. Those
2 or 3 hours with no trains, or few trains allow some work to be done
without interrupting schedules, either the trains' or the work.
Take care, Randy in S Dade, FL
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Just guessing here, but it might have to do with maintainence. Those
> 2 or 3 hours with no trains, or few trains allow some work to be done
> without interrupting schedules, either the trains' or the work.
I recall reading that Grand Central was closed on account of the
homeless problem being too much to handle. Closing it overnight meant
everyone had to get out.
Certainly it is advantageous to do maintenance when there is light or
no traffic and traditionally that has been done.
In Philadephia, the subways used to run all night but now are closed
and buses provided. I have heard mixed reviews on that performance--
sometimes when late night bars/clubs let out the buses get
overcrowded. On the subway-surface, it is closed one night a week and
passengers routed to another line.
I sometimes wonder if late night riders get a raw deal since they must
deal with all the maint efforts and limited headways. At least now
the subways and buses have schedules, before one could wait 20+
minutes.\
rsh...@gmail.com
>
> Certainly it is advantageous to do maintenance when there is light or
> no traffic and traditionally that has been done.
>
> In Philadephia, the subways used to run all night but now are closed
> and buses provided. I have heard mixed reviews on that performance--
> sometimes when late night bars/clubs let out the buses get
> overcrowded. On the subway-surface, it is closed one night a week and
> passengers routed to another line.
>
> I sometimes wonder if late night riders get a raw deal since they must
> deal with all the maint efforts and limited headways. At least now
> the subways and buses have schedules, before one could wait 20+
> minutes.\
My understanding in Philly was the big reason for closing the subways
at night was to save money. It was cheaper to run busses parallel to
the subway routes, then run trains and have the necessary dispatchers
in addition to the train crews.
A raw deal, you are right, but considering the way we finance
transportation in general, they are lucky they get any kind of service
at night.
I know NYC has talked about doing that over the years, but it would
not work considering the subway routes really don't follow the same
streets for very long outside of manhattan. It would be a very
convoluted system.
Basically what NYC has done is severely cut the headways from what
they used to be years ago.
Now that I think about it NYC, Philly, and Chicago are the only ones
that have all night subway service. Other cities shut down.
Washington's Metro, it was talked about keeping it open 24 hrs but
WMATA doesn't want it as it would hurt their maintainence and
cleanliness. I give them credit for that.
Take care, Randy in S Dade, FL, where Metro Dade Transit runs a pretty
good system all things considered.
Joseph D. Korman
I don't have the current NYCT figures, but way back in ancient history
(1980's), there were about 50,000 paid fares between 1:00am and 5:00am
on typical week nights. Add to that the length of some of the lines,
making it difficult to schedule crews to put the trains away, and then
get them out again for the morning. Then try to secure all 480+ stations.
Back then I think the figure was about a COST of $8 million a year for
closing the subway. How many buses do you need to transport those
50,000 riders?
For the most part, all of the lines have run a 20 minute headway
overnight for at least the last 35 years.
rsh...@gmail.com
Out of curiousity, what was the late night subway headway in the 50's
and 60's?
Candide
"Joseph D. Korman" <joe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:46269B55...@earthlink.net...
Topic of closing NYC subways down part or all of the night comes up
often enough and is routinely shot down for a simple reason; NYC is the
city that never sleeps and too many people work evenings and nights
and need a way to get to and from work. From nurses to bartenders, to
office workers, and not everyone can take a bus. As another poster
stated it would be impossible to provide bus service to any where near
cover even half the subway system, especially say from Manhattan to
outer parts of the Brooklyn or Queens. It is all the MTA can do when
something happens knocking out subway service on one line, to provide
some sort of shuttle bus schedule.
There are also all those late nightclubs and their patrons. It is not
unusual for persons either to make a dash for the last Metro trains, or
stay out until they start running again; but don't think NYC would go
for that.
Ed(NY)
Harlem lines (which charged a premium fare). They ran until 4 AM or so.
The New Haven division had some late service as well.
The decision to cut back was based on finances and demographics. Those late
trains were losing a disproportionate amount of money at a time when budgets
were mich tighter. Today the situation is different - the late trains out
of NYC, especially on the LIRR, tend to carry sufficient passenger loads.
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:1176840991.7...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Ed(NY)
"pigst...@yahoo.com" <rsh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176932010.8...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>
> Basically what NYC has done is severely cut the headways from what
> they used to be years ago.
>
>the same that have been for the last 40 years. In fact, service has
>improved on some lines by running expresses as locals - e.g., on Lexington
>& 7th Avenues, local stations have service all night every 10 minutes.
>There has been a net loss of one or two individual lines (e.g., A now
>provides local service at night) but individual headways are the same.
Philip Nasadowski
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> I understand that was the reason. However, under Penn Central
> operation, which was a private company, they may have had more
> discretion in ejecting non passengers. The Reading Company police
> certainly did (kick out bums) at Reading Terminal in Philadelphia
> before Conrail took over.
From what my lawyer friend has told me, the closing is for a simple
reason: it maintains the status of the property as a private space. If
it were open 24/7 all the time, it would eventually legally become an
open space. This is also why other seemingly public places get closed
at odd times, and why you see those little 'private property: no
trespassing' plaques in the sidewalk in places around NYC (presumably,
they boot one person a year out of said areas, too)
This became an issue when the Rockaway alignment for a JFK rail link was
looked at: The property was abandoned, and built on. The LIRR never
complained. Thus under NY state law, they have lost their property
rights, and would have to reclaim the built on land via emminent domain.
Have fun!
> I would then guess the terminal now closes at 2 am. I wonder if
> passengers for the 5:35 am departure have to wait on the street until
> the terminal opens at 5:30 or if perhaps they open it a little early.
My guess is that a simple closure for 1 hour is all that's needed.
> The Long Island Rail Road runs all night and has done so for many
> years. Has it always offered all night service?
Dunno. Last time I was there one night, There WAS a gap in service on
most lines.
Amtrak owns Penn and makes no attempt to close it or kick out the bums,
either.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> From what my lawyer friend has told me, the closing is for a simple
> reason: it maintains the status of the property as a private space. If
> it were open 24/7 all the time, it would eventually legally become an
> open space. This is also why other seemingly public places get closed
> at odd times, and why you see those little 'private property: no
> trespassing' plaques in the sidewalk in places around NYC (presumably,
> they boot one person a year out of said areas, too)
It takes 21 years and certain other conditions for that to happen.
(Actually, SEPTA better be careful about its Newtown Line and protest
and remove any encroachments on the ROW. If they don't for 21 years,
the property changes hands.
But all it would take for a RR station is a sign noting it is private
property, just as you see plates on a sidewalk "space within lines not
dedicated".
> Amtrak owns Penn and makes no attempt to close it or kick out the bums,
> either.
I wouldn't say "no effort". It's better than what it used to be.
They have come up with various rules that help. But of the course the
homeless advocates will eventually find a way to circumvent them or
sue the railroad. If I had the time and money I would counter-sue
those cloud-head advocates for violating my rights of safety,
harassment, and passage. Railroad stations are not homeless shelters.
The cloud-headed advocates don't even ride the trains, and their
organizations are funded by rich people who don't ride either.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> The decision to cut back was based on finances and demographics. Those late
> trains were losing a disproportionate amount of money at a time when budgets
> were mich tighter. Today the situation is different - the late trains out
> of NYC, especially on the LIRR, tend to carry sufficient passenger loads.
I wonder, given the much higher patronage Metro North carries today
compared to back then, if all night service on MNRR would be well
patronized to the same extent as LIRR service.
Of course, according to a NYT article, the late night LIRR crowds
aren't the well heeled elite. Many are sloshed, coming out of late
night clubs and parties. The train is doing a public service carrying
them, of course, but cleanup costs may be high. In the station, trash
buckets are left about.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Out of curiousity, what was the late night subway headway in the 50's
> and 60's?
I believe it was about 20 minutes per line. However, it would be less
where lines converged and shared track.
It seems over time that overnight service was cut back to shuttles and
less overlap. For example, the local might run all night, but the two
express lines that share the trunk operate only as shuttles to feed
it. I think going back the expresses would continue to run.
At one time the entire subway ran all night. Now buses are used as
shuttles in a few places, which makes sense.
Over time origin and destination traffic generators change. In the
1950s there was more manufacturing with all night shifts, that meant
service was needed to those factories and to neighbhorhoods where such
workers lived. I read once that PATH overnight trains serves cleaning
staff who live in NJ but work in Manhattan skyscrapers, for example.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Now that I think about it NYC, Philly, and Chicago are the only ones
> that have all night subway service.
Phila no longer has all night subway service, it has replacement
shuttle buses. See BSS and Mkt-Fkd schedules on SEPTA's website
www.septa.org. However, I believe PATCO still runs all night. PATCO
was designed so a half hour headway would allow one track to go out of
service for maintenance, the trains would meet at a siding; but things
may have changed.
Phila had many surface lines with all night service but in one of the
big service cuts from budget troubles they eliminated many of those
routes. As jobs and residences change, routes have been added. My
old neighborhood apparently stays up later now and has all night
service.
Joseph D. Korman
> On Apr 18, 6:41 pm, "pigsty1...@yahoo.com" <rshe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Out of curiousity, what was the late night subway headway in the 50's
>>and 60's?
>
>
> I believe it was about 20 minutes per line. However, it would be less
> where lines converged and shared track.
>
> It seems over time that overnight service was cut back to shuttles and
> less overlap. For example, the local might run all night, but the two
> express lines that share the trunk operate only as shuttles to feed
> it. I think going back the expresses would continue to run.
>
> At one time the entire subway ran all night. Now buses are used as
> shuttles in a few places, which makes sense.
>
The only line that has buses overnight is Lenox Ave for 145th and 148th
stations. All of the other lines are either full runs or shuttles.
Over night, the A runs local to the D express on CPW and the E runs
local to the F in Queens. The 2 and 4 run local along with the 1 and 6
respectively.
Al Gillis
"Philip Nasadowski" <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote in message
news:nasadowsk-47F9B...@news.verizon.net...
> In article <1176911327....@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> I understand that was the reason. However, under Penn Central
>> operation, which was a private company, they may have had more
>> discretion in ejecting non passengers. The Reading Company police
>> certainly did (kick out bums) at Reading Terminal in Philadelphia
>> before Conrail took over.
>
> From what my lawyer friend has told me, the closing is for a simple
> reason: it maintains the status of the property as a private space. If
> it were open 24/7 all the time, it would eventually legally become an
> open space. This is also why other seemingly public places get closed
> at odd times, and why you see those little 'private property: no
> trespassing' plaques in the sidewalk in places around NYC (presumably,
> they boot one person a year out of said areas, too)
A company with a large manufacturing campus (+/- 300 Acres) here in the
Portland, OR area generally allows public access to their entire property -
numerous roads, mass transit stations, parking lots, a bank, etc. But, on
New Years Day, they chain up all the street and sidewalk entrances and
display a small sign stating that the "Xxxxxx Industrial Park is closed
today to maintain the campus as private property of Xxxxxx, Inc.". Then,
about midnight they remove the chains for another year. When I worked
there, in the early 1980s, the company security department provided special
instructions to those who might need to enter that campus to respond to
situations for which we were "on-call" that day
william welner
MTA, a state authority so closing the terminal at night is needed to keep
the terminal public property, which currently is public property.
If what you say is true, one could just take over the Brooklyn Bridge which
also never closes and place a toll booth on the bridge for ones own profit.
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:1177336223.5...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Grand Central Terminal is already public property, as it is owned by the
> MTA, a state authority so closing the terminal at night is needed to keep
> the terminal public property, which currently is public property.
Actually, I'm pretty sure GCT is still owned privately (by the Penn
Central sucessors) and is only leased to the MTA.
The legal term is adverse posession, which is when others (the public
or a private party) freely and obviously make use of property over a
period of time (usually 21 years). The property then reverts to the
users.
A common example is that I build a garage and part of it ends up on
your property. You do nothing. Later you do a survey and complain
that my garage is on your property. If you wait too long you are out
of luck, the property is now mine.
Another common example is if people use private property as a
thorofare. That's why such walks are closed occassionally or so
marked.
There may be differences in this law in different states. Obviously a
real estate lawyer could explain much better than I can.
In any event, the 1973 closing of GCT over night had nothing to do
with this policy.
rsh...@gmail.com
> On Apr 18, 5:33 pm, "pigsty1...@yahoo.com" <rshe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Now that I think about it NYC, Philly, and Chicago are the only ones
> > that have all night subway service.
>
> Phila no longer has all night subway service, it has replacement
> was designed so a half hour headway would allow one track to go out of
> service for maintenance, the trains would meet at a siding; but things
> may have changed.
>
> Phila had many surface lines with all night service but in one of the
> big service cuts from budget troubles they eliminated many of those
> routes. As jobs and residences change, routes have been added. My
> old neighborhood apparently stays up later now and has all night
> service.
I consider the all night busses that run parallel to the subways/EL's
"subway" service even though obviously it is not.
That is the reason I included Philly w/NYC and Chicago. Washington,
Baltimore, Miami, BART, Boston, have no such bus substitution, and
their systems close down.
Thor Lancelot Simon
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>It takes 21 years and certain other conditions for that to happen.
>(Actually, SEPTA better be careful about its Newtown Line and protest
>and remove any encroachments on the ROW. If they don't for 21 years,
>the property changes hands.
You can't get (the easement for) a federally chartered railroad by
adverse posession under state law. What was the original charter for
the tracks SEPTA now uses?
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
"All of my opinions are consistent, but I cannot present them all
at once." -Jean-Jacques Rousseau, On The Social Contract
rsh...@gmail.com
It has always been that way, and it was even worse when the drinking
age was 18. NJ Transit has many problems on those first trains that
leave Penn Sta in the AM. Closing time in NYC is 4 am, and you know
what happens then.
I am just guessing here, but it seemes once a service is eliminated,
there are too many problems, and there is too much, can I say, inertia
against bringing it back. People and crews are doing things in a
certain way because there are no trains, and change would be difficult
and probably expensive.
People have talked for years about the need for all night NJT service
to Penn Sta. But for a variety of reason, inc the ones I mentioned,
it is not happening.
The Path trains run all night, and there are bus routes that run out
of Newark Penn Sta all night, and it is only about 3 hours between the
last train and the first train on weeknights..
Re: homeless in Penn Sta, I have missed that last NJT train, and had
to wait for the first one in the AM. As you said they do a good job
of keeping them at bay. You have to have a ticket to sit in the
waiting area, if you don't have a ticket, you cannot have access.
I have not been to PA Bus Term in many years, but my understanding is
the homeless are removed to a center on 9th ave, where they receive
services. I guess it is based on an officer's observation and
judgment. I am sure someone else know more about this then I do.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> You can't get (the easement for) a federally chartered railroad by
> adverse posession under state law. What was the original charter for
> the tracks SEPTA now uses?
I didn't know there were both state and federal charters (like banks).
I don't know where the charter for that particular stretch of track
originated. Often times a charter was granted but not used for
years. In others the real operating railroad leased the track from a
paper company*.
I believe the route was actually constructed around 1875.
*SEPTA found itself paying rent to such a paper company--150 years
old--which it didn't want to do. I think they bought the company.
John Mara
> In article <1177336223.5...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>>It takes 21 years and certain other conditions for that to happen.
>>(Actually, SEPTA better be careful about its Newtown Line and protest
>>and remove any encroachments on the ROW. If they don't for 21 years,
>>the property changes hands.
>
>
> You can't get (the easement for) a federally chartered railroad by
> adverse posession under state law. What was the original charter for
> the tracks SEPTA now uses?
>
I remember reading the environmental impact statement for the Northeast
Corridor Improvement Project back in the 1970's. There were several
grade crossings for which there were no documents recorded. The plan
was to just close them.
I've also wondered about the oft' cited issue of real estate taxes on
railroad property. Usually, if real estate taxes are not paid, the
taxing authority takes the property and sells it at a tax auction. I
would think that a railroad could block such a taking under the
Interstate Commerce clause. If a town took their five mile stretch of
railroad for taxes it would make the whole railroad useless. Surely
that would interfere with interstate commerce.
--
John Mara
James Robinson
> I've also wondered about the oft' cited issue of real estate taxes on
> railroad property. Usually, if real estate taxes are not paid, the
> taxing authority takes the property and sells it at a tax auction. I
> would think that a railroad could block such a taking under the
> Interstate Commerce clause. If a town took their five mile stretch of
> railroad for taxes it would make the whole railroad useless. Surely
> that would interfere with interstate commerce.
That's why local authorities have no taxation power over the railroads in
most states. Utility taxation is typically handled by a board with a name
like the State Board of Equalization. They assess the value of the
property, and assign a mil rate that is paid to the county.
Merritt Mullen
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Actually, I'm pretty sure GCT is still owned privately (by the Penn
> Central sucessors) and is only leased to the MTA.
You are correct, but it is a 110-year lease. Here is what
grandcentralterminal.com has to say about it:
---------------------
In 1994, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority gained long-term
control of Grand Central Terminal in the form of a 110-year lease from
American Premier Underwriters, Inc., successor to the Penn Central
Corporation. This enabled the MTA to enter into an agreement with GCT
Venture, Inc., a partnership of developers LaSalle Partners Incorporated
and Williams Jackson Ewing, to implement a comprehensive revitalization
plan based on the Master Plan for Grand Central Terminal. Construction
began in 1996 with the cleaning of the Main Concourse Sky Ceiling. As
restoration and renovation continued, the project generated more than
2,000 construction and construction related jobs throughout New York State.
The revitalization project culminated with a gala Rededication Celebration
of Grand Central Terminal on October 1, 1998. This event garnered both
national and international media attention, and marked the beginning of a
new chapter of this venerable New York City landmark.
[Copyright 2007 Grand Central Terminal]
----------------------
Posted by Merritt
Candide
"Merritt Mullen" <mmull...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:mmullen8014-2012...@netnews.asp.att.net...
Believe all that came about after Mrs. JKO and others "saved" GCT and
then someone had to figure out what to do with the thing. Defeating
demolition and or building a skyscraper on top of GCT was all very well,
but it didn't change the fact there were bills to pay and current uses
weren't bringing in the cash.
Penn Central owned lots of land around GCT which many of the current
buildings are built upon. Does the successor company still hold those
leases?
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Believe all that came about after Mrs. JKO and others "saved" GCT and
> then someone had to figure out what to do with the thing. Defeating
> demolition and or building a skyscraper on top of GCT was all very well,
> but it didn't change the fact there were bills to pay and current uses
> weren't bringing in the cash.
Excellent point.
The Penn Central railroad, being bankrupt, did nothing with GCT and it
literally rotted away. When the MTA finally got its act together and
began the major rehab, it found neglected roof and wall leaks allowed
water to get in and do considerable corrosion and freeze/thaw damage
to the building structure. That needed to be fixed at considerable
expense.
There's a thick detailed book on the rehab project of GCT; I believe
written by the architects of the rehab job.
If the city and state of NY wanted to preserve Grand Central Terminal,
it had to come up with the money to do so. It eventually did. As
stated, the earlier "victory" was hollow at best.
Candide
news:1177444405.2...@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
One suspects sooner or later NYC/NYS will find the same thing out about
the "new" NYP station to be located in the former Farley post office. It
is going to cost plenty to run, staff, maintain etc that barn of a place
and the RRs aren't going to be the ones who pay. This is probably the
rational for turning the place into a "destination" with shopping, bars,
and so forth. Obviously the powers that be are hoping rents will bring
in cash enough to keep the place running.
Candide
J.R.Guthrie
> literally rotted away. When the MTA finally got its act together and
Why would it? It didn't own the station.
GCT was owned by the highly profitable New York and Harlem Railroad. PC was
merely a tenant.
Cheers,
Jim
Adam H. Kerman
>>>Actually, I'm pretty sure GCT is still owned privately (by the Penn
>>>Central sucessors) and is only leased to the MTA.
>>You are correct, but it is a 110-year lease.
>Believe all that came about after Mrs. JKO and others "saved" GCT and
>then someone had to figure out what to do with the thing. Defeating
>demolition and or building a skyscraper on top of GCT was all very well,
>but it didn't change the fact there were bills to pay and current uses
>weren't bringing in the cash.
Would that have been possible, to build an office building above the
railroad station? Chicago Union Station was designed for 22 stories of
office space, but only 8 were built because of its distance from the central
business district. Was the same true of GCT?
Adam H. Kerman
>>It takes 21 years and certain other conditions for that to happen.
>>(Actually, SEPTA better be careful about its Newtown Line and protest
>>and remove any encroachments on the ROW. If they don't for 21 years,
>>the property changes hands.
>You can't get (the easement for) a federally chartered railroad by
>adverse posession under state law. What was the original charter for
>the tracks SEPTA now uses?
A federally chartered railroad?
Candide
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.07...@qbbshf.puvarg.pbz...
IIRC, the original architect drawings included a 700' office tower above
GCT, but it wasn't done. Penn Central revisited those plans in 1968, and
that started the out cry which lead to Mrs. JKO standing in front of GCT
making a rather famous speech about saving "historic" buildings or some
such. PC sued the city to force the issue and lost. Ironically part of
the Supreme Court's ruling said that only if it would save a building
owner from bankruptcy could a historic building be removed from such a
designation. Well not long after the ruling and GCT was "saved" the RR
filed for bankruptcy.
It is not unusual for buildings, even in to have designs for one way,
only to be built another, then finally go back to the original plans.
Most recent example would be the Hearst Building on West 57th Street,
which only recently is being "completed" with additional floors years
after being "finished".
Candide
Peter Schleifer
wrote:
>It is not unusual for buildings, even in to have designs for one way,
>only to be built another, then finally go back to the original plans.
>Most recent example would be the Hearst Building on West 57th Street,
>which only recently is being "completed" with additional floors years
>after being "finished".
The building I work in was designed to have an additional 100 floors
above the 28 that actually were built. I don't expect they would
ever go back to those plans.
--
Peter Schleifer
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself"
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> GCT was owned by the highly profitable New York and Harlem Railroad. PC was
> merely a tenant.
Is GCT still owned by the NY&H? If not, when and to whom was
ownership transferred.
There was a little company, Phila, Germantown, & Norristown that owned
a piece of SEPTA tracks on which the Reading Company paid rent to.
They even had a listing in the phone book. When SEPTA acquired the
system that arrangement was terminated. (I've heard rumors about
'how' that arrangement was termianted, but since they're unconfirmed I
can't comment.)
Peter T. Daniels
> "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in messagenews:Pine.LNX.4.64.07...@qbbshf.puvarg.pbz...
>
>
>
>
>
> > At 5:35am -0000, 04/24/07, Candide <PityMePi...@anywhere.com> wrote:
> > >"Merritt Mullen" <mmullen8...@mchsi.com> wrote:
I guess you haven't actually gone inside the Hearst Building.
Absolutely nothing of the original but the exterior walls remains.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:36:26 GMT, "Candide" <PityMePi...@anywhere.com>
> wrote:
>
> >It is not unusual for buildings, even in to have designs for one way,
> >only to be built another, then finally go back to the original plans.
> >Most recent example would be the Hearst Building on West 57th Street,
> >which only recently is being "completed" with additional floors years
> >after being "finished".
>
> The building I work in was designed to have an additional 100 floors
> above the 28 that actually were built. I don't expect they would
> ever go back to those plans.
Broadway Temple, the Methodist church north of 174th St., was supposed
to have 30-odd floors of apartments above it. It would have been a
very handsome Art Deco tower!
Adam H. Kerman
I'm sorry to hear that. I thought that facade preservation in the guise of
preservation was unique to Chicago.
Peter T. Daniels
There was nothing special about the interior -- it was just magazine
offices that were far too small for their needs, in a building about
six stories high that was zoned for much higher. The solution arrived
at is vastly superior to, say, what has been done to Soldier Field.
Virtually every industrial building in Jersey City and Hoboken has
been converted to condos (except a few that are being torn down), with
nothing left but the exterior, so, no, Chicago may have pioneered (as
in so much of modern architecture), but is far from unique.
Adam H. Kerman
>On Apr 26, 6:09 pm, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>At 12:36pm -0700, 04/26/07, Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>On Apr 26, 6:36 am, "Candide" <PityMePi...@anywhere.com> wrote:
>>>>It is not unusual for buildings, even in to have designs for one way,
>>>>only to be built another, then finally go back to the original plans.
>>>>Most recent example would be the Hearst Building on West 57th Street,
>>>>which only recently is being "completed" with additional floors years
>>>>after being "finished".
>>>I guess you haven't actually gone inside the Hearst Building.
>>>Absolutely nothing of the original but the exterior walls remains.
>>I'm sorry to hear that. I thought that facade preservation in the guise of
>>preservation was unique to Chicago.
>There was nothing special about the interior -- it was just magazine
>offices that were far too small for their needs, in a building about
>six stories high that was zoned for much higher.
No special architectural features remaining in common hallways or at
elevator lobbies?
>The solution arrived at is vastly superior to, say, what has been done to
>Soldier Field.
No one appreciates the Toilet Bowl.
>Virtually every industrial building in Jersey City and Hoboken has
>been converted to condos (except a few that are being torn down), with
>nothing left but the exterior, so, no, Chicago may have pioneered (as
>in so much of modern architecture), but is far from unique.
I wasn't speaking of industrial buildings, which are unlikely to have had
much in the way of interior adornments. In the 19th Century, or now,
industrial buildings will simply contain large, undefined spaces with high
ceilings. We have any number of office buildings, nothing of which was
preserved except the facade. In several instances, literally the facade was
removed, then the building demolished, then a new building built, with the
original facade tacked on as an old skin of a new building. In the Loop, the
facades of four late 19th Century buildings were preserved, simply propped
up as the buildings were demolished, and are now attached to a brand new
building that occupies the footprints of the four smaller buildings.
I don't recognize this as preservation in any way.
Peter T. Daniels
> At 8:23pm -0700, 04/26/07, Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Apr 26, 6:09 pm, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> >>At 12:36pm -0700, 04/26/07, Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>On Apr 26, 6:36 am, "Candide" <PityMePi...@anywhere.com> wrote:
> >>>>It is not unusual for buildings, even in to have designs for one way,
> >>>>only to be built another, then finally go back to the original plans.
> >>>>Most recent example would be the Hearst Building on West 57th Street,
> >>>>which only recently is being "completed" with additional floors years
> >>>>after being "finished".
> >>>I guess you haven't actually gone inside the Hearst Building.
> >>>Absolutely nothing of the original but the exterior walls remains.
> >>I'm sorry to hear that. I thought that facade preservation in the guise of
> >>preservation was unique to Chicago.
> >There was nothing special about the interior -- it was just magazine
> >offices that were far too small for their needs, in a building about
> >six stories high that was zoned for much higher.
>
> No special architectural features remaining in common hallways or at
> elevator lobbies?
I guess you've never been inside a NYC office building. Mr. Woolworth
and Mr. Chrysler had a great deal of money and wanted to show it off.
Mr. Hearst, notoriously, did _not_ like to spend money (except on
himself).
NB those names are also personifications of their empires.
> >The solution arrived at is vastly superior to, say, what has been done to
> >Soldier Field.
>
> No one appreciates the Toilet Bowl.
>
> >Virtually every industrial building in Jersey City and Hoboken has
> >been converted to condos (except a few that are being torn down), with
> >nothing left but the exterior, so, no, Chicago may have pioneered (as
> >in so much of modern architecture), but is far from unique.
>
> I wasn't speaking of industrial buildings, which are unlikely to have had
> much in the way of interior adornments. In the 19th Century, or now,
> industrial buildings will simply contain large, undefined spaces with high
> ceilings. We have any number of office buildings, nothing of which was
> preserved except the facade. In several instances, literally the facade was
> removed, then the building demolished, then a new building built, with the
> original facade tacked on as an old skin of a new building. In the Loop, the
> facades of four late 19th Century buildings were preserved, simply propped
> up as the buildings were demolished, and are now attached to a brand new
> building that occupies the footprints of the four smaller buildings.
Orchestra Center, or whatever they call it? I haven't seen the inside
except in a couple of pictures, but I always loved the small proto-
Prairie loft building around the corner that's now used as the main
entrance, and I'm very glad that its facade, at least, was preserved.
That cafe around the corner on Wabash is very unfortunate -- as is
almost everything else that had been done to the Loop between when I
left in 1997 and saw it again in 2005.
> I don't recognize this as preservation in any way.
Pity!
How about that church on Dearborn (east side of the street in Printers
Row)?
Candide
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1177675785.2...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Just as an aside, the Hearst Building was started in 1927, the Great
Depression came not long after and that caused construction of the
building to stop where it was.
Al Gillis
"Scott en Aztlán" <scotte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:260433d0hop84ko05...@4ax.com...
> "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> said in
> misc.transport.rail.americas:
>
>>I thought that facade preservation in the guise of
>>preservation was unique to Chicago.
>
>
> Harker Hall, the oldest building on the Univeristy of Illinois campus,
> underwent a gut rehab back in the late 80s. The shell of the historic
> building was preserved, but everything inside was completely replaced.
Several years ago I was in the downtown Minneapolis, MN building that housed
the Northwestern Bell Telephone company. The exterior of the building had
been saved from the wrecking ball and much of the main lobby and elevator
lobbies on a few floors (the ones I visited) were retained. Once outside
the main hallways and into the office spaces everything was new, however.
Which made sense to me: The lobby spaces were still beautiful but the
working spaces were efficient sheetrock, electrical and lighting systems as
well as being "cube farms" for the twentieth century drones who toiled in
those spaces...
Adam H. Kerman
>On Apr 27, 1:33 am, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>At 8:23pm -0700, 04/26/07, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>Virtually every industrial building in Jersey City and Hoboken has been
>>>converted to condos (except a few that are being torn down), with nothing
>>>left but the exterior, so, no, Chicago may have pioneered (as in so much
>>>of modern architecture), but is far from unique.
>>I wasn't speaking of industrial buildings, which are unlikely to have had
>>much in the way of interior adornments. In the 19th Century, or now,
>>industrial buildings will simply contain large, undefined spaces with high
>>ceilings. We have any number of office buildings, nothing of which was
>>preserved except the facade. In several instances, literally the facade
>>was removed, then the building demolished, then a new building built, with
>>the original facade tacked on as an old skin of a new building. In the
>>Loop, the facades of four late 19th Century buildings were preserved,
>>simply propped up as the buildings were demolished, and are now attached
>>to a brand new building that occupies the footprints of the four smaller
>>buildings.
>Orchestra Center, or whatever they call it?
Not what I was thinking of, but that's an example. If you care, Orchestra
Hall was renamed Symphony Center, at least till they sell the naming rights.
I can't believe they demolished everything along Wabash, and there's a
parking lot there, but when you don't pay property taxes, it's cheap to hold
land out of use.
When the Oriental Theater was put back into service, they enlarged the
backstage area, so the delightful Olivetti Typewriter Building next door had
to go. They saved the facade, and its former main entrance is the exit for a
fire emergency stairwell.
The buildings I was thinking of were on the east side of Wabash between
Randolph and Washington. All buildings in that block north of the Garland
Building at the corner of Wabash and Washington were demolished, but their
facades were preserved.
>>I don't recognize this as preservation in any way.
>Pity!
It's like a movie set, really doesn't give one a historic feeling.
>How about that church on Dearborn (east side of the street in Printers
>Row)?
Do you mean Grace Place? I thought that was a converted industrial loft, not
a brand new building.
Mandatory Railroad Content: For those who don't know, one of Chicago's six
major steam railroad terminals, Dearborn Station, was built on Polk Street
at Dearborn. Polk Street is well south of the Loop. The railroads that built
Dearborn Station wanted it much farther north, probably at Van Buren Street
like LaSalle Street Station #3. However, the city of Chicago would not allow
it to be built there, wishing to keep the associated freight houses father
away from the central business district. As a compromise, Dearborn Street
was punched through between Jackson Blvd and Polk St, demolishing a
significant number of buildings. Dearborn is between two existing streets,
Plymouth and Federal. The result was a narrow block on either side, perhaps
a 1/4 of a normal Chicago block. So an entire line of graceful buildings
lined the street from Chicago's most glorious architectural era, and what's
fascinating is the transition between buildings in the old style of support
walls and in the brand new style of steel skelatal structures, allowing the
buildings to appear lighter and have larger windows.
Many of the buildings had small printing firms in them, hence the name.
There was also the Transportation Building, with freight forwarders in it.
The Monon Railroad's hq was in one of the buildings, till the '50's.
Today, only one of the buildings still has offices in it. The rest have
become housing.
Adam H. Kerman
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> said:
>>I thought that facade preservation in the guise of preservation was unique
>>to Chicago.
>Not at all.
>Harker Hall, the oldest building on the Univeristy of Illinois campus,
>underwent a gut rehab back in the late 80s. The shell of the historic
>building was preserved, but everything inside was completely replaced.
I don't think of gut rehabs as facade-ism, since the building's skeleton is
reused. I'm thinking of situations when literally nothing remains of the
original structure except for the facade.
Peter T. Daniels
That would seem to be physically impossible, except perhaps for a
solid masonry shell.
Adam H. Kerman
>>>Not at all.
Fine. What's preserved is more than a few millimeters thick. In one example
I gave you, the buildings were demolished, just the front walls were
retained and propped up during construction. In the other example, the outer
skin of the building was disassembled and then reinstalled on the brand-new
building.
Peter T. Daniels
> At 8:06pm -0700, 04/27/07, Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Apr 27, 9:27 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> >>At 6:58am -0700, 04/27/07, scottenazt...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> said:
> >>>>I thought that facade preservation in the guise of preservation was unique
> >>>>to Chicago.
> >>>Not at all.
> >>>Harker Hall, the oldest building on the Univeristy of Illinois campus,
> >>>underwent a gut rehab back in the late 80s. The shell of the historic
> >>>building was preserved, but everything inside was completely replaced.
> >>I don't think of gut rehabs as facade-ism, since the building's skeleton
> >>is reused. I'm thinking of situations when literally nothing remains of
> >>the original structure except for the facade.
> >That would seem to be physically impossible, except perhaps for a
> >solid masonry shell.
>
> Fine. What's preserved is more than a few millimeters thick. In one example
> I gave you, the buildings were demolished, just the front walls were
> retained and propped up during construction.
So also at the University of Chicago's first classroom building, Cobb
Hall. It's standard practice everywhere. Cornell University's original
library building had been gutted and completely remade -- with floor
levels having little to do with the fenestration, in fact -- as the
undergraduate library when a new library was built in the mid-60s, and
was fully in operation by the time I started there in 1968.
> In the other example, the outer
> skin of the building was disassembled and then reinstalled on the brand-new
> building.
Again, that seems impossible except for a cast-iron building, and
there was a notorious example in NYC: the Haughwout Building, the
first (or maybe the oldest surviving) cast-iron building, was
carefully disassembled and stored for re-erection elsewhere -- and
apparently the parts were stolen and sold for scrap.
Bolwerk
> On Apr 18, 12:12 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" <joe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> I checked my Hudson and Harlem timetables from 1967 (still NYC system).
>> Hudson had its last train leave Croton Harmon at about 100am with a
>> 200am arrival at GCT. The Harlem had 100am, 300am, 400am and 500am
>> trains from White Plains.
>>
>> The New Haven (NYNH&H) early 1968 had expresses at 100am and 300am from
>> Hew Haven.
>
> Thanks for your post.
>
> Ok, so now we know the NYC and NH both operated "owl" service in the
> NYC commuter district.
>
> I wonder if patronage would exist for such trains to operate these
> days, as the LIRR does. Heck, instead of White Plains maybe even from
> Brewster.
It might be good for the nightlife business if they could advertise to
suburbanites that there's a way home after a night of partying.
See the NY Times article "Miss the 1:30 A.M. At Grand Central? Cry to
Your Cabby" by Andrew Jacobs on June 11, 2004.
New York may be the city that never sleeps, but late each night
an unhappy handful of commuters discover that such truisms do
not apply at this vital transportation center. Trains to Long
Island and many bus lines to New Jersey depart round the clock,
but the three rail lines operated by Metro-North that leave
Grand Central take a 4-hour-10-minute breather each night.
This leaves the dawdlers, the irresponsible and the uninformed
to fend for themselves.
''I can't tell you how many times I've seen grown men in
tears,'' said Stephen Nowicki, a Metropolitan Transportation
Authority police officer who works the lobster shift.
The night clerk at the nearby Hyatt hotel calls them ''train
wrecks.'' The cabdrivers refer to them as ''Cinderella fares.''
Out on 42nd Street, a mob of cabbies await the luckless souls.
They shout ''Connecticut, Westchester, upstate,'' and size up
potential gold mines by their shoes and the weaves on their
rumpled suit jackets. The fortunate driver can earn $160 for a
90-minute trip to New Haven or $70 for a 40-minute drive to
White Plains. All fares must be paid in advance.
...
In the 1940's, when Grand Central was a bustling
transcontinental hub and the 20th Century Limited might pull in
at dawn, an insurance salesman with a bad buzz might pass the
night on one of the station's oak benches. Not anymore. Railroad
officials describe the overnight closing as a way to give Grand
Central an unimpeded scrubbing, but it also provides a way to
foil late-night vandals and vagrants.
Still, Dan Brucker, a spokesman for Metro-North, said that
stranded passengers could spend the night in the stationmaster's
office, although the uniformed officers responsible for clearing
the station each night disagreed.
''Once 1:30 rolls around, everyone's out,'' Officer Nowicki
said.
He and others said they sometimes sent passengers to a 24-hour
diner or advised fearful suburbanites to while away the night
near the subway entrance at 42nd Street and Park Avenue, where a
police officer is stationed at all hours. For those with
thicker wallets, the Hyatt offers rooms for $270.
Sancho Panza
"Bolwerk" <bol...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4634db97$0$8926$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Most NJ Transit rail lines, as well as most NJ Transit bus routes, take
two-, three- and four-hour overnight breaks. Even the NEC takes a breather,
albeit shorter.