Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support?

[Ant]

Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.
--
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/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org /
/ /\ /\ \ http://antfarm.ma.cx. Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
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[Joacim Melin]

A> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just
A> curious.

Not at all. 5G isn't readily available anywhere, sucks the battery dry and
uses up your data cap in a matter of hours if used heavily. I'd rather have a
phone on 4G/LTE that can support me throughout the day.

[nospam]

In article <psidncm3dKqOvRbA...@earthlink.com>, Ant

<a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.

no, since there are almost no 5g networks to connect to, and in the few
places it does exist, it only works outside and only in certain spots.
move a few feet or step inside and no more 5g.

also, and existing 1st gen chips are not good, plus they won't be
compatible with later revisions and frequency bands, which means new
phone.

[nospam]

In article <gv1atr...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >
> > Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.
>

> Go ahead and explain to the rest of us why we should be "disappointed"
> when there are no 5G networks in most places we go today.

and in the *very* few places it does exist, it's only in a couple of
city blocks, and only outdoors, and in some cases, only on one side of
the street.

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 10:26:42 -0400, nospam wrote:

> and in the *very* few places it does exist, it's only in a couple of
> city blocks, and only outdoors, and in some cases, only on one side of
> the street.

FACTS + LOGIC.

Apple is primitively _years_ behind Android on modern 5G technology.
o Apple can't even get Safari right (sophmoric bugs reported by Google)
o Apple can't even get iOS right (huge bugs in every iOS release)
o Apple can't even get modems right (it has to slow down Qualcomm modems!)
o Apple can't even get batteries right (throttling secretly added)
etc.

Apple MARKETING is smart - but Apple engineering is incompetent.
o Specifically Apple QA (which Google proved is nearly ineffectual)
(And Apple did NOT refute Google's statements that iOS was untested!)

FACT:
o Apple is well behind in modern networking technology
LOGIC:
o Apple can barely keep up "playing catchup" to Android technology
o Android flagship technology isn't sitting still either
PREDICTION:
o What makes nospam think Apple's 1st 5G implementation won't be atrocious?

HINT:
Apple can't even get something as simple as bilateral charging to work.

[JF Mezei]

On 2019-09-25 04:06, Ant wrote:
> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.

Absolutely disapointed.
With all the PR hooplah promulgated by carriers who want to make 5G look
like a revolution and hold government by the gonads because they have
protrayed that without 5G, a country will die and that governments must
do everything to help those poor carriers deploy 5G, it becomes
important for individuals to also start bragging about 5G. Not having 5G
on my phone I can't do that and can only watch the carriers brag to hook
line and sinker the gullible politicians.

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 11:44:49 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> it becomes
> important for individuals to also start bragging about 5G

Hi JF Mezei,

You're not an apologist, so a thoughtful conversation can ensue with you.

We realize you're joking, but the facts indicate a far deeper problem...
o The fact clearly show Apple is not only far behind in 5G technology.

But that Apple is playing catchup on a LOT more than just 5G technology.
o And the competition doesn't sit still.

That's the real problem here (IMHO).

Apple MARKETS themselves as "innovators" (e.g., "by innovation only")...
o But it's becoming more and more imaginary...

It's such a HUGE problem that I'm sure Apple knows this
o But the fact is that they can't seem to ever catch up.

That's the reals problem, as I see it.
o Apple can't compete on technology anymore.

The competition is too powerful for mere marketing to easily overcome.
o Marketing of imaginary functionality works great ... for a while.

But marketing of imaginary functionality can't work for Apple forever.

--
This has been an adult observation of facts & logical assessemnt of fact.

[badgolferman]

Ant wrote:

>Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just
>curious.

I'm not disappointed because I have no intention of getting iPhone 11.
However if I actually had bought one I would be disappointed because
with 5G on the near horizon I would not have 5G for many years unless I
bought another $1000+ phone.

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 18:51:13 +0000 (UTC), badgolferman wrote:

> I would be disappointed because
> with 5G on the near horizon I would not have 5G for many years unless I
> bought another $1000+ phone.

The concept is:
o FUNCTIONALITY (e.g., modern networking capabilities).

Intelligent adults agree with badgolferman (e.g., Steve, aka SMS), and I.
o If you're gonna plunk down $1,500 for a phone - it should last years

Otherwise ... it's simply effeminately utterly meaningless fancy jewelry...

[Alan Browne]

On 2019-09-25 04:06, Ant wrote:

> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.

On a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is absolutely disappointed about 2 or 3.

If that.

It's not a deal breaker, but when (if) I buy the iPhone 11, it will be
for a 5 year run. By year 2 or 3 of that run 5G will be common in much
of the city, less in the 'urbs.

Given my mobile data needs, it's more of a "nice to .." than a "have to..."

--
"Even with the brain dead, the pig's heart keeps on beating...
sort of like ... pick a Kardashian."
-Anthony Bourdain, Parts Unknown

[Alan Browne]

On 2019-09-25 10:12, Jolly Roger wrote:

> On 2019-09-25, Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>>
>> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.
>

> Go ahead and explain to the rest of us why we should be "disappointed"
> when there are no 5G networks in most places we go today.

Few people upgrade their phones annually anymore... in my case it's a 5
year cycle if possible, which is the age of my current 6+ (or will be by
late Dec.).

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 25.09.19 um 10:06 schrieb Ant:

> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.

This is exactely the reason why I won't buy one except my iPhone 7
breaks. In Switzerland the coverage with 5G is already almost complet.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 25.09.19 um 20:51 schrieb badgolferman:

+1

[Chris]

Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2019-09-25 04:06, Ant wrote:
>> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.
>
> On a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is absolutely disappointed about 2 or 3.
>
> If that.
>
> It's not a deal breaker, but when (if) I buy the iPhone 11, it will be
> for a 5 year run. By year 2 or 3 of that run 5G will be common in much
> of the city, less in the 'urbs.
>
> Given my mobile data needs, it's more of a "nice to .." than a "have to..."

Same. 4G is going nowhere and suits my needs now and will do for years to
come. Large scale adoption of 5G will alleviate demand for 4G so it will
benefit that as well.

Given the battery issues with 5G I'd much rather have 4G and working phone
rather than 5G and a non-working phone.

[JF Mezei]

On 2019-09-25 20:13, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2019-09-25 04:06, Ant wrote:
>> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.
>
> On a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is absolutely disappointed about 2 or 3.

In Canada, carriers' restrictive usage limits have one big advantage:
their networks with ample spectrum are rarely congested, which is why
they get bragging rights about being one of the fastest in the world.

LTE is plenty fast for existing uses, and I don't think 5G will change much.


In 2010, when I biked in USA, I used T-Mobile and my phone dropped from
3G to 2G since T-Mo had its 3G on 1700 which iPhone lacked. Existing
uses such as tweeting a picture was painful at best (couple minutes to
upload) and failed often (Twitter would time out on the upload). So
there was a real usability issue.

Going from 3G to 4G was more of a "response time" improvement since
tweeting a picture was noticably faster but in the "big picture", not
that different. (taking 1 second instead of 5 isn't like it taking 2
minutes to upload instead of 5 seconds)

Where LTE does make a difference is uploading of videos where the
difference in upload time is large enough to make more than a "feels
faster" thing.

Moving from LTE to 5G won't change usability for emails uploading
pictures and short videos. It might make uploading 4K 120fps videos
possible where now, we upload 720p of 080p at 30fps.

But if you buy a 4G phone today and keep it for say 4 years, the types
of uses you can make on the phone today will continue to work eally well
on LTE for 4 years. Perhaps when the iPhone with holographic 3D
projector will really need 5G. But existing phones don't really need 5G
for existing uses.

[JF Mezei]

On 2019-09-26 03:04, Chris wrote:

> Same. 4G is going nowhere and suits my needs now and will do for years to
> come. Large scale adoption of 5G will alleviate demand for 4G so it will
> benefit that as well.

Be careful. Carriers will refarm spectrum currently allocated to 4G to
shift capacity to 5G. This will take many years. But it will happen.

And at some point the carriers will only mainain a tech such as 3G to
support embedded devices (parking meters etc) that require very little
capacity, so if you are still a user of that tech, you will see very
slow speeds. But we are talking about the iPhone 17 or later before LTE
starts to lose capacity.

[nospam]

In article <SCcjF.257$Sj1...@fx33.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> > Same. 4G is going nowhere and suits my needs now and will do for years to
> > come. Large scale adoption of 5G will alleviate demand for 4G so it will
> > benefit that as well.
>
>
> Be careful. Carriers will refarm spectrum currently allocated to 4G to
> shift capacity to 5G. This will take many years. But it will happen.

not for a while, although they're starting to do that with 3g.

[Chris]

Exactly. Not a problem in reality.

[recscub...@huntzinger.com]

Depends on what your upgrade cycle looks like. Pragmatically, it’s probably
going to be a good five years in the USA until 5G becomes adequately
deployed broadly, reliable, efficient, and cost-effective for it to move into
real “early mainstream” adoption.

So even though it’s probably a decent bet that the iPhone12 could have it,
so as to play the “future-ready” card, it won’t really become an actually
important/beneficial capability feature until no earlier than 2-3 years later.


FWIW, I had a related conversation on this sort of thing relative to Apple,
and what I realized was that my friend really had no clue on what really
needs to happen to deploy new technology.

Apple is surprisingly good at systematically addressing risks, both in TRL
as well as MRL (see below), even though this discipline takes time and
puts them comparatively “late to market” .. but that’s why they don’t sell
a “foldable” which breaks in just a few months, or put out a new phone
with 1/4 the battery life of its predecessor, etc.

TRL = Technology Readiness Level
MRL = Manufacturing Readiness Level


-hh

[nospam]

In article <a6737c2c-0a45-470d...@googlegroups.com>,
<recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote:

> but thatšs why they donšt sell
> a łfoldable˛ which breaks in just a few months,

months?? more like hours.

last spring, the galaxy fold failed for multiple reviewers within a
day, causing the product to be canceled, then the newly redesigned
version, released today (for usa), has already failed for at least one
reviewer. it also includes a one-time discounted out of warranty screen
repair because samsung *knows* it's going to break.

huawei, who also announced a folding phone, still has not shipped
theirs yet.

[JF Mezei]

On 2019-09-27 20:03, recscub...@huntzinger.com wrote:

> Depends on what your upgrade cycle looks like. Pragmatically, it’s probably
> going to be a good five years in the USA until 5G becomes adequately
> deployed broadly, reliable, efficient, and cost-effective for it to move into
> real “early mainstream” adoption.

5G on normal frequencies will likely be deployed in a widesread fashion
within 2-3 years of the tech being mature. So early adopters will see
lack of 5G on the iPhone 11 as a drawback in a year or two. But by then
Apple will likely have a 5G iPhone so lack of 5G on previous generatiosn
of iPhones such as the 11 won't be a problem.



Canada is a "good" example of LTE deployment. The 1700 spectrum was
auctioned later than USA but before LTE tech became available. In the
USA, Verizon/Sprint waivered until the VHS/Betamax was settled (LTE vs
WiMax).

In Canada, carriers were already GSM based so LTE was the logical
solution and no need to wait for the VHS/Betamax debate. in USA, T-Mo
didn't have spectrum (it needed it 1700 for 3G since its 1900 had to
support 2G) and was "on hold" pending acquisition by AT&T that would
refarm T-Mo spectrum and have little use for its infrastructure.

In Europe, LTE was late because new spectrum was late to be auctioned.

A lot of the 5G PR hype for lobbying purposes is about 26gHz band with
extremely limited range. (the one with antenna covering a bus stop for
instance). That is what will take a very long time. But deploying 5G
on 600mhz or 850, 1700 or 1900 will be very fast to widespread coverage.
3500 is also being acutioned in Canada (I assume was already done in
USA) for 5G.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:37:50 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> LTE is plenty fast for existing uses, and I don't think 5G will change much.

The problem isn't 5G.
The problem is that Apple sells imaginary functionality.
Which means people buy that imaginary functionality.

To understand the concept, you can think of this analogy:
o A $1,500 iPhone sans 5G is like a $150,000 car with a 1.5 liter engine.

Given networking speed is a primary performance metric for premium phones
o Only an absolute ignorant fool would spend $1,500 for an iPhone sans 5G.

[Lloyd Parsons]

Arlen Holder <arlen...@arlinghlder.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:37:50 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:
>
>> LTE is plenty fast for existing uses, and I don't think 5G will change much.
>
> The problem isn't 5G.

Correct, it isn’t 5G since 5G as implemented in phones today is a non
starter.

> The problem is that Apple sells imaginary functionality.
> Which means people buy that imaginary functionality.
>

Only in your head.

> To understand the concept, you can think of this analogy:
> o A $1,500 iPhone sans 5G is like a $150,000 car with a 1.5 liter engine.
>
> Given networking speed is a primary performance metric for premium phones
> o Only an absolute ignorant fool would spend $1,500 for an iPhone sans 5G.
>

Networking speed is a primary concern much further down the line. But 4G
is better now because you can use it for extended lengths of time, which
cannot be said of 5G. 5G today and for the next couple of years will be
more about marketing than reality.


--
Lloyd

[nospam]

In article <gv98g1...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd Parsons

<lloy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> LTE is plenty fast for existing uses, and I don't think 5G will change
> >> much.
> >
> > The problem isn't 5G.
>

> Correct, it isnšt 5G since 5G as implemented in phones today is a non
> starter.

very true. existing 5g phones won't support what will be deployed in a
couple of years. plus they overheat a lot.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 10:30:26 -0400, nospam wrote:

> very true. existing 5g phones won't support what will be deployed in a
> couple of years. plus they overheat a lot.

Hi nospam,

I'm going to try to speak with you as if you are an adult, nospam.

Rest assured, every time you deprecate the initial 5G implementations...
o I will remind you of Apple's utter incompetence in engineering product

There's a reason I'm on this newsgroup - and you apologists are it.
o I'm here to bring fact and truth and balance to this newsgroup.

While I give credit to Apple for, essentially, inventing the modern
smartphone GUI ... Apple utterly stagnated once they accomplished the
launcher - where Android launchers bypassed Apple launchers years ago.

I also give credit to Apple for sort of inventing the smartphone camera
quality output - but - again - Android is ALWAYS better than Apple iPhone
camera output - where all you can do is hate the reviews - and you blame
the single-score summary - but the reality is you ignore the detailed
tests.

And, I give credit to Apple for sort of inventing a beautiful display,
although all computers work their way up, it seems, in screen resolution
until it no longer really matters - and Android is as good as Apple
resolutions (and better, phone by phone, price wise, in most cases).

Having given Apple credit for "inventing" some stuff, modems, are NOT on
that list, where we can all agree (well, all reasonable people can agree)
that the Intel modems were a disaster in terms of speed, for, without
Qualcomm modems, Apple iPhones wouldn't last longer than Blockbuster did
once DVDs started selling.

One thing Apple has is YOUR MONEY (so much of your money that it's not
funny), so luckily for Apple, when their Intel 5G gamble failed, they
simply surrendered YOUR MONEY to Qualcomm - and soon - Apple will be back
in the networking speed business (but Android isn't sitting still - and -
Android has an 18 month to 2 year jump on Apple).

Speaking of the Android teething pains you LOVE to point out, do you really
think I can't list a ton of Apple teething pains?

I mean, seriously, iOS _still_ can't ship without huge holes in it such
that even the Department of Defense warned people not to install iOS 13.0.

Seriously nospam, Apple has teething pains in the _simplest_ of things,
where, for example, Google showed 14 longstanding holes in all levels of
iOS from the Safari browser down to the kernel, where Google proved (and,
significantly, Apple didn't deny) that iOS was essentially untested (where
Google said the code was so bad it couldn't possibly have been tested).

I've been proving for years that iOS is insufficiently tested, but you
don't believe any facts - and yet - even Apple can't refute Google's facts
(Apple merely complained about HOW Google reported those facts).

I realize that it's likely a waste of my time to try to discuss this issue
with you as if you're an adult - but the fact is that you have too much
confidence in Apple releasing a 5G product in the first pass that does not
have teething pains.

Certainly, it's EASY for you to "claim" Apple won't have 5G teething pains.
o But the fact they can't even ship Safari correctly proves you wrong.

Every time you claim that Apple does NOHT have 5G teething pains
o I'll remind you Apple can't release the simplest things, without them.

For example, Apple can't do something as simple as bilateral charging yet.

--
WARNING: This post contains adult content.

[Arlen Holder]

On 28 Sep 2019 14:19:45 GMT, Lloyd Parsons wrote:

> Networking speed is a primary concern much further down the line. But 4G
> is better now because you can use it for extended lengths of time, which
> cannot be said of 5G. 5G today and for the next couple of years will be
> more about marketing than reality.

Hi Lloyd Parsons, aka Elfin,

I'm going to try to discuss the CONCEPT with you, as if you're an adult.
o I agree with your premise that the problem isn't 5G for Apple ... today.

The problem is that Apple MARKETS what is called a "premium" phone
o At a hugely astronomical premium price (e.g., $1,500).

At _that_ price level, you expect modern functionality
o Remember, even Qualcomm based iPhones had to have their modem speeds cut

The problem with 5G is OBVIOUS to Apple, by the way
o It's why they surrendered their shirt to Qualcomm only a few months ago

If you think you're smarter than Apple - well - guess what - you're not.
o You can't sell a $150,000 car that has a dog slow 1.5 liter engine.

Sure, it looks pretty - and MANY people will buy it (as stylish jewelry)
o But intelligent adults will know those people are fools for buying it

And THAT is Apple's problem.

I realize nothing I said above will resonate with you because you're an
apologist; but everything I just said is well known to Apple Marketing.

Apple surrendered billions to Qualcomm
o Because without 5G ... Apple can't sell a "premium" priced iPhone

--
WARNING: This post contains adult cognitive content.

[Arlen Holder]

On 26 Sep 2019 19:53:57 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> It's a non-issue. It amazes me how many people seems to so easily fall
> for pure hype and fake news.

Hehhehhhe...

I love when Jolly Roger posts, because he proves to be 100% influenced by
simple, yet brilliant marketing (e.g., his use of "fake news" is classic).

It's interesting how the most canonical Apple Apologists
o Never say anything that wasn't said by a (clever) Marketing organization.

--
Hint: Anyone who uses the term 'fake news' is almost always an utter moron.

[nospam]

In article <qmo4co$uee$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen...@arlinghlder.edu> wrote:


> There's a reason I'm on this newsgroup

to troll

> I also give credit to Apple for sort of inventing the smartphone camera
> quality output - but - again - Android is ALWAYS better than Apple iPhone
> camera output - where all you can do is hate the reviews - and you blame
> the single-score summary - but the reality is you ignore the detailed
> tests.

nope.

it's *you* who ignores all of the detailed tests, and instead fixates
on a single flawed single score, all of which you do not understand
what it means.

<https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20868727/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-rev
iew-camera-battery-life-screen-midnight-green-price>
...and a new camera system that generally outperforms every other
phone, which should get even better with a promised software update
later this fall.
...
...and they beat the Pixel and Samsungšs Galaxy Note 10 Plus in
most of our side-by-side comparisons. In fact, I think the iPhone
11 Pro is the best smartphone camera on the market right now.

so much for android 'always' being better.

and that's for stills. for video, there is no contest.

the iphone 11 can capture *multiple* simultaneous 4k/60 video streams,
something no other phone can do.

> And, I give credit to Apple for sort of inventing a beautiful display,
> although all computers work their way up, it seems, in screen resolution
> until it no longer really matters - and Android is as good as Apple
> resolutions (and better, phone by phone, price wise, in most cases).

also wrong.

<http://www.displaymate.com/iPhone_11Pro_ShootOut_1P.htm>
Apple has continued to raise the on-screen Absolute Picture Quality
and Absolute Color Accuracy of their displays by implementing
Precision Factory Display Calibration, moving the overall iPhone 11
Pro Max display performance up to Record Setting Outstanding
levels, and setting or matching many Display Performance Records,
including Absolute Color Accuracy at a very impressive 0.9 JNCD
that is Visually Indistinguishable From Perfect, and almost certainly
considerably better than your existing Smartphone, 4K UHD TV,
Tablet, Laptop and computer monitor.
...
The iPhone 11 Pro Max has an impressive Top Tier display with close
to Text Book Perfect Calibration and Performance!
Based on our extensive Lab Tests and Measurements the iPhone 11 Pro
Max receives our DisplayMate Best Smartphone Display Award earning
DisplayMatešs highest ever A+ grade by providing considerably better
display performance than other competing Smartphones.

key takeaways:
- record setting outstanding levels
- setting or matching many display performance records
- visually indistinguishable from perfect
- highest ever a+ grade
- considerably better display performance than other
competing smartphones.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 14:19:23 -0400, nospam wrote:

>> There's a reason I'm on this newsgroup
>
> to troll

Hi nospam,
I'm _still_ going to try to reason with you, as if you're an adult.

Adults pass this test: Name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

Years ago, it bothered me that you Apple Apologists just made shit up.
o Everything you said, was simply all made up.

I wondered why people would have such ideas as apologists spout
o Then, it hit me what the reason was.

You Apologists actually BELIEVE everything Apple feeds you.
o When facts prove otherwise - you are forced to make shit up.

You LOVE Apple products becuase you BELIEVE in what they MARKET.
o What Apple (cleverly) markets, is imaginary performance & functionality

If you haven't figured it out yet - I don't believe what Apple says
o My purpose here - is simply to bring actual facts to the table.

Apple does some things right (e.g., the marketing is brilliant)
o But Apple is NOT a technology leader anymore - they play catchup

FACT:
o Apple is playing catchup on cameras (despite marketing otherwise)
o Apple is playing catchup on modems (despite marketing otherwise)
o Apple is playing catchup on charging (despite marketing otherwise)
etc.

ASSESSMENT:
o Apple markets brilliantly - but on actual functionality - it's just ok.

>> I also give credit to Apple for sort of inventing the smartphone camera
>> quality output - but - again - Android is ALWAYS better than Apple iPhone
>> camera output - where all you can do is hate the reviews - and you blame
>> the single-score summary - but the reality is you ignore the detailed
>> tests.
>
> nope.
>
> it's *you* who ignores all of the detailed tests, and instead fixates
> on a single flawed single score, all of which you do not understand
> what it means.

Adults pass this test: Name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

The fact is, nospam, you _hate_ DXOMark reviews ... because they're facts.
o Worse, you can't ever find _anything_ better that is comprehensive

> <https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20868727/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-rev
> iew-camera-battery-life-screen-midnight-green-price>
> ...and a new camera system that generally outperforms every other
> phone, which should get even better with a promised software update
> later this fall.

Adults pass this test: Name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

What's interesting about you apologists, nospam,
o Is that you think EXACTLY like Apple Marketing wants you to think.

I agree that, every once in a while, Apple's expensive phones
o Happen to have good camera quality of results

But they're RARELY on top - and worse - rarely on top for long.
o That's a fact nospam.

The fact you don't like facts doesn't change that they're still facts.
o Only the most expensive of the most expensive iPhones - is ever on top

And not for long.

That's an adult observation that you apologists can never comprehend.

> ...
> ...and they beat the Pixel and Samsungšs Galaxy Note 10 Plus in
> most of our side-by-side comparisons. In fact, I think the iPhone
> 11 Pro is the best smartphone camera on the market right now.
>
> so much for android 'always' being better.

Adults pass this test: Name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

If we are to continue to have an adult conversation with you nospam,
we can agree that, just like what marketing does, we can "cherry pick"
phones (where you cherry picked a $1,500 phone for Christs' sake), and then
we can, delve into myriad features, to cherry pick one or two, which, of
course, is what you do all the time nospam, since your brain is highly
influenced by (admittedly clever) marketing.

But the fact remains that only the best of the most horrifically expensive
iPhones are ever even close to the top of the list in overall camera
quality of results.

And even then, not for long.

You don't like facts, nospam - but the fact is that they're still facts.

> the iphone 11 can capture *multiple* simultaneous 4k/60 video streams,
> something no other phone can do.

Adults pass this test: Name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

Cherry picking is what Apple Apologists do
o And Apple Marketing (admittedly brilliantly) feeds you the cherries.

But the fact is, overall, Apple iPhones are just ok on camera quality
o On average, iPhones are on the bottom of the top ten

Although, at release, the atrociously expensive phones climb higher
o But not for long.

That you don't like facts is well known nospam, since you're an apologist
o But the fact you don't like facts doesn't change that they're still facts

> The iPhone 11 Pro Max has an impressive Top Tier display with close
> to Text Book Perfect Calibration and Performance!
> Based on our extensive Lab Tests and Measurements the iPhone 11 Pro
> Max receives our DisplayMate Best Smartphone Display Award earning
> DisplayMatešs highest ever A+ grade by providing considerably better
> display performance than other competing Smartphones.

Adults pass this test: Name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

Again, as always, you're picking the atrociously expensive iPhone
o And even then, you cherry pick your data points

The facts show there are literaly ZERO reliable camera test outfits
who consistenly test the suite of common mobile smartphones, who puts the
Apple phones, on average, anywhere near the top on camera QOR>

Sure, you can cherry pick nospam
o Sure, you'll continue to cherry pick nospam

But even you can't find a single comprehensive testing outfit
o That consistently puts the iPhone on top

It's a fact.
o The iPhone camera QOR is ok - but it's almost never the best

Even when it's the best - it's only the best on certain features
o And even then, it's only the best on certain features for a while

While that happens to EVERY smartphone (and camera), the point is clear
o On overall camera Quality of Results - on average - iPhones are just ok

You don't like facts, nospam, but the fact you hate facts doesn't change
the fact they're still facts.

If you _could_ find a BETTER comprehensive camera QOR outfit
that consistently rated iPhones above the rest, then you would.

And you can't.

The fact is, you _always_ fails this simplest of tests of imaginary beliefs:
o Name just one

That is, name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

--
HINT: All my beliefs have tons of cites which back them up; while the
apologistrs can't even pass the simplest of tests of imaginary belief
systems: name just one

[nospam]

In article <qmoe1t$ler$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen...@arlinghlder.edu> wrote:

>
> > <https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20868727/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-rev
> > iew-camera-battery-life-screen-midnight-green-price>
> > ...and a new camera system that generally outperforms every other
> > phone, which should get even better with a promised software update
> > later this fall.
>
> Adults pass this test: Name just one comprehensive camera test outfit
> o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

how about the one you just quoted, which you obviously didn't read.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 16:15:12 -0400, nospam wrote:

> how about the one you just quoted, which you obviously didn't read.

Hi nospam,

I'm _still_ going to try to reason with you, as if you're an adult.

This is a fact you don't like - and yet - it's still a fact:
o Apple iPhones aren't even in the top-ten in DXOMark reviews today

[11] Apple iPhone XS Max (106)
[16] Apple iPhone XR (101)
[23] Apple iPhone X (97)
[27] Apple iPhone 8 Plus (94)
[39] Apple iPhone 7 Plus (88)
[49] Apple iPhone 6 (73)
[55] Apple iPhone 5s (68)

Adults pass this simplest of the most basic test of imaginary beliefs.
o Name just one

Name just one reliable comprehensive camera test outfit who reviews ALL
phones, not just cherry picked phones, nospam:

o That consistently rates iPhone camera QOR on top

Name just one.

If you are an adult, nospam, you will be able to pass that simple test.
o And yet, you _never_ pass it.

Which proves, beyond doubt, your belief system is entirely imaginary.
o You believe only what Apple Marketing feeds you.

--
Here's the current DXOMark summary of very detailed tests as of today.
[1] Huawei Mate 30 Pro (121)
[2] Samsung Galaxy Note 10+ 5G (117)
[3] Huawei P30 Pro (116)
[4] Samsung Galaxy S10 5G (116)
[5] Honor 20 Pro (113)
[6] Huawei Mate 20 Pro (112)
[7] OnePlus 7 Pro (111)
[8] Xiaomi Mi 9 (110)
[9] Huawei P20 Pro (109)
[10] Samsung Galaxy S10+ (109)
[11] Apple iPhone XS Max (106)
[12] HTC U12+ (103)
[13] Samsung Galaxy Note 9 (103)
[14] Xiaomi Mi MIX 3 (103)
[15] Google Pixel 3 (102)
[16] Apple iPhone XR (101)
[17] Google Pixel 3a (100)
[18] LG G8 ThinQ (99)
[19] Samsung Galaxy S9+ (99)
[20] Xiaomi Mi 8 (99)
[21] Google Pixel 2 (98)
[22] OnePlus 6T (98)
[23] Apple iPhone X (97)
[24] Huawei Mate 10 Pro (97)
[25] Lenovo Z6 Pro (97)
[26] OnePlus 6 (96)
[27] Apple iPhone 8 Plus (94)
[28] LG V40 ThinQ (94)
[29] Samsung Galaxy Note 8 (94)
[30] Sony Xperia 1 (94)
[31] Xiaomi Pocophone F1 (91)
[32] Asus ZenFone 5 (90)
[33] General Mobile GM9 Pro (90)
[34] Google Pixel (90)
[35] HTC U11 (90)
[36] Vivo X20 Plus (90)
[37] Xiaomi Mi Note 3 (90)
[38] Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge (89)
[39] Apple iPhone 7 Plus (88)
[40] Samsung Galaxy A9 (86)
[41] Crosscall Trekker-X4 (85)
[42] Nokia 9 PureView (85)
[43] LG G7 ThinQ (83)
[44] Samsung Galaxy A50 (83)
[45] LG V30 (82)
[46] Motorola Moto Z2 Force (82)
[47] Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge (82)
[48] Motorola Moto G7 Plus (80)
[49] Apple iPhone 6 (73)
[50] Google Nexus 6P (73)
[51] Meizu Pro 7 Plus (71)
[52] Lava Z25 (70)
[53] Samsung Galaxy S5 (70)
[54] Motorola Moto G5S (69)
[55] Apple iPhone 5s (68)
[56] Nokia 8 (68)
[57] Samsung Galaxy J2 Pro (2018) (65)

[nospam]

In article <qmont6$euk$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen...@arlinghlder.edu> wrote:

>
> > how about the one you just quoted, which you obviously didn't read.
> >

>

> This is a fact you don't like - and yet - it's still a fact:
> o Apple iPhones aren't even in the top-ten in DXOMark reviews today
>
> [11] Apple iPhone XS Max (106)
> [16] Apple iPhone XR (101)
> [23] Apple iPhone X (97)
> [27] Apple iPhone 8 Plus (94)
> [39] Apple iPhone 7 Plus (88)
> [49] Apple iPhone 6 (73)
> [55] Apple iPhone 5s (68)

you're once again ignoring the detailed tests which you accuse others
of doing, and the iphone 11 hasn't been tested yet.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 19:10:46 -0400, nospam wrote:

> you're once again ignoring the detailed tests which you accuse others
> of doing, and the iphone 11 hasn't been tested yet.

Hi nospam,

I'm going to attempt to discuss your objection as if you're an adult.

FACTS.

You claim the extensive reviews of the major smartphone camera quality of
results historically don't come out as high as Apple Marketing had spewed,
right?

You claim that DXO Mark's extensive tests' summaries, don't show Apple
camera quality of output in the same esteem Apple Marketing fed you, right?

You claim something is wrong...

o Simply because, historically, Apple marketing tells you the camera output
is better than it actually appears to be in actual independent
comprehensive testing, right?

You claim that DCOMark extensive reviews' "summary" scores aren't accurate
right (because Apple is always well below Android except for short periods
of time), right?

You deprecate DXO Mark comprehensive tests & their summary scores, right?
o And yet, you can't find a _better_ comprehensive test company anywhere.

Hence, you, as usual, failed the simplest test of imaginary beliefs.
o Name just one

Name just one comprehensive smartphone camera testing outfit
o That consistently shows Apple iPhone camera QOR in the top ten over time

Name just one.

--
Apologists deprecate ANY and ALL independent comprehensive smartphone
camera QOR tests that don't fit with the bullshit that Apple marketing fed
them (which, intgerstingly, is ALL the comprehensive smartphone reviews!)
:)

You have to love the humor inherent in that fact.

[sms]

I was just in Italy. 5G is live in the larger cities already. Vodafone
was advertising 5G phones and service in its stores, even though the
smaller city I was in (Bari) was not one of the cities where Vodafone 5G
is up yet.

It makes sense to deploy 5G in big cities first, since that's where the
network congestion issue is most prevalent.

LTE service on Vodafone Italy was excellent, even in the very small
towns. I had a Vodafone UK SIM card but thanks to EU roaming rules I
could use my voice, text, and data anywhere in the EU. The plan I had
was 500MB of data per day. I thought that I would never use that much
data in a day, but navigation using Google Maps and Moovit sucked a lot
of data, as did Google Translate live translation. On one day I had to
spend another £1 for an extra 500MB. The Wi-Fi in one hotel we were at
for four nights was poor.

[nospam]

In article <qmvem7$vbc$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> I was just in Italy. 5G is live in the larger cities already.

not fully, it isn't.

[Lewis]

In message <qmvem7$vbc$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 9/25/2019 11:11 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 25.09.19 um 10:06 schrieb Ant:
>>> Are you disappointed that iPhone 11s don't have 5G support? Just curious.
>>
>> This is exactely the reason why I won't buy one except my iPhone 7
>> breaks. In Switzerland the coverage with 5G is already almost complet.

> I was just in Italy. 5G is live in the larger cities already. Vodafone
> was advertising 5G phones and service in its stores, even though the
> smaller city I was in (Bari) was not one of the cities where Vodafone 5G
> is up yet.

"Live" as in there might be a corner it works on. The reality in Rome is
no, 5G is not a thing other than in ad copy. TIM rolled it out in
"parts" of the city in July, a month after Vodaphone rolled it out in
"parts" of the city.

This from someone who lives in Rome.

--
Live long enough to become a problem to your kids.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 01.10.19 um 13:57 schrieb nospam:

What are you trying to tell us?

In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running. Italy is
usually an early adopter of new standards. The Italians love their
"Telefoninos"!

It is a fact that the US are still lagging Europe by roughly 5 years as
far as mobile networks are concerned.

Devices without 5G are already substandard and have no future. Apple's
iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.

[nospam]

In article <qmvtkv$ung$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>

wrote:

> >> I was just in Italy. 5G is live in the larger cities already.
> >
> > not fully, it isn't.
>
> What are you trying to tell us?

that it's not fully deployed.

> In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running. Italy is
> usually an early adopter of new standards. The Italians love their
> "Telefoninos"!

where 'up and running' means 'there are some areas where 5g is
available, but in the majority of places, it's still lte'.

> It is a fact that the US are still lagging Europe by roughly 5 years as
> far as mobile networks are concerned.

utter nonsense.

> Devices without 5G are already substandard and have no future.

also wrong.

1st gen 5g devices have horrible battery life and overheat, as well as
being expensive, plus they lack many of the 5g bands, which means in a
few years, they'll be obsolete. only a fool would buy one now.

> Apple's
> iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.

sales show otherwise.

[JF Mezei]

On 2019-10-01 12:07, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running.

Out of curiosity, on what frequemncy bands has it been deployed?

> It is a fact that the US are still lagging Europe by roughly 5 years as
> far as mobile networks are concerned.

While Canada/USA lagged in moving to from analogue to digital mobile,
the move from 3G to LTE was actually where Canada (especially) lead
Europe. And the reason for this was that Europe (especially UK) was
behind is providing the spectrum on which they could deploy 4G.

In the USA, Verizon was still at 2G CDMA while AT&T had modern HSPA with
all the options (which gave it 40MBPS as I recall), so Verizon had very
strong incentive to go LTE to catch up. It just couldn't compete with
its old CDMA that did between 1 and 3mps.

So Europe with its HSPA deployment saw less urgency to deploy LTE
because the HSPA with the various performance options provided fair service.

> Devices without 5G are already substandard and have no future. Apple's
> iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.

Are you sure that what is being advertised as "5G" isn't actially just
one of the advanced version of LTE?

AT&T in the USA called its 3G "4G" and even got the iPhone to display
"4G" when connevcted to its 3G network. And this summer, I got "5G"
disdplayed on my iPhone Xs while in Wilmington Delaware.

http://www.vaxination.ca/temp/IMG_2649.jpg

This was at the Wilmington Amtrak station on the platforms.

[nospam]

In article <pJLkF.3904$oU2....@fx21.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> In the USA, Verizon was still at 2G CDMA while AT&T had modern HSPA with
> all the options (which gave it 40MBPS as I recall), so Verizon had very
> strong incentive to go LTE to catch up. It just couldn't compete with
> its old CDMA that did between 1 and 3mps.

nope. verizon had 1xrtt and evdo *before* at&t 3g was fully deployed.

[Chris]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 01.10.19 um 13:57 schrieb nospam:
>> In article <qmvem7$vbc$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
>> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I was just in Italy. 5G is live in the larger cities already.
>>
>> not fully, it isn't.
>
> What are you trying to tell us?
>
> In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running.

"Most of Western Europe"?! Ha!

There's none in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Ireland, Scandinavia or
Portugal. There's a smattering in other countries other that Switzerland.
https://www.speedtest.net/ookla-5g-map

> Italy is
> usually an early adopter of new standards. The Italians love their
> "Telefoninos"!

There are four options for 5G. Two in Naples and two in Rome.

It'll be a couple of years before 5G is routinely available in Europe. I'm
quite happy buying a 4G phone today.

> It is a fact that the US are still lagging Europe by roughly 5 years as
> far as mobile networks are concerned.
>
> Devices without 5G are already substandard and have no future. Apple's
> iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.

I guess we'll see...

[Arlen _ Holder]

On Tue, 01 Oct 2019 12:26:55 -0400, nospam wrote:

> 1st gen 5g devices have horrible battery life and overheat

Each time you deprecate modern phones, I'll remind you, nospam
o Apple can't even get bilateral charging to work properly

What makes you think they will get 5G right in the first pass?
o Hell - Google proved Apple ships iOS as a diarrhea - for years.

Apple couldn't even dispute that Google proved iOS was untested.
o Apple merely complained about "how" Google said it.

Apple can't even release iOS 13 without huge security holes, nospam.
o What makes you think Apple can get 5G right on the first pass?

Apple can't even get wireless charging to work without 70% throttling!

[Arlen _ Holder]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 17:41:13 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> I'm quite happy buying a 4G phone today.

You would.
o IMHO, only an utter fool spends as much as $1,500 for a dog-slow phone.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 01.10.19 um 18:26 schrieb nospam:

>> Apple's
>> iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.
>
> sales show otherwise.

Complete bullshit!
After a week or two? Come on ...

[nospam]

In article <qn0bfs$r5v$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> >> iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.
> >
> > sales show otherwise.
>
> Complete bullshit!
> After a week or two? Come on ...

more detailed numbers will be known at apple's earnings call in a
month, but as of right now, every indication is that iphone 11 sales
are *extremely* strong worldwide.

<https://bgr.com/2019/09/20/iphone-11-release-sales-demand-higher-than-e
xpected/>
To this point, pre-orders for the iPhone 11 reportedly checked in
significantly higher relative to pre-orders for Apple零 2018 iPhone
lineup. Further, reputed analyst Ming-Chi Kuo (who is typically on
the ball when it comes to all things Apple) issued an investor note
relaying that iPhone pre-order demand was easily besting initial
expectations.
...
Of particular interest is that demand for the iPhone 11 in China is
said to be two times as strong as it was for last year零 iPhone XR.

[Chris]

Nymshifting again, I see. Filters adjusting in 3..2..1..

[sms]

On 10/1/2019 9:07 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

<snip>

> In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running. Italy is
> usually an early adopter of new standards. The Italians love their
> "Telefoninos"!

What some people don't understand is that 5G doesn't have to be
ubiquitous in order to be useful. There are large cities with severe
congestion on their 4G LTE networks and these cities are the first ones
to have 5G deployed. It also benefits 4G users when there are more 5G
users because it reduces 4G congestion.

> It is a fact that the US are still lagging Europe by roughly 5 years as
> far as mobile networks are concerned.

More like one to two years. In my area (San Francisco Bay Area) 5G
deployment has begun but because the 5G phones used most in Europe are
not sold in the U.S. the use of the 5G infrastructure is extremely low.

> Devices without 5G are already substandard and have no future. Apple's
> iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.

Not just the iPhone 11, but all the late 2019 and early 2020 non 5G
phones from all manufacturers. All the experts already have stated that
sales will be down as buyers delay purchases waiting for 5G models.

"Whether it's Samsung, Apple or any other smartphone maker, tech buyers
are likely to hold out for compatibility with the latest network. In
addition, high prices for premium devices are stretching out the upgrade
cycle."
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-preps-iphone-11-but-potential-upgrade-cycle-remains-a-mystery/>

[sms]

On 10/1/2019 10:07 AM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2019-10-01 12:07, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running.
>
> Out of curiosity, on what frequemncy bands has it been deployed?

For Italy, see
<https://markets.ft.com/data/announce/detail?dockey=1323-13813972-0UVL3CNSIU2S5AD08IRKHK3CIJ>.

As the article states, 5G is about capacity.

On my recent trip I was in Milan, where 5G deployment is already fully
deployed, and in Puglia where there doesn't appear to be any 5G yet at
all, and not a lot of need for it.

[nospam]

In article <qn0mcd$u0l$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> What some people don't understand is that 5G doesn't have to be
> ubiquitous in order to be useful. There are large cities with severe
> congestion on their 4G LTE networks and these cities are the first ones
> to have 5G deployed. It also benefits 4G users when there are more 5G
> users because it reduces 4G congestion.

false. it's not useful if it keeps falling back to lte, which is not
congested except in very extreme situations.

> > It is a fact that the US are still lagging Europe by roughly 5 years as
> > far as mobile networks are concerned.
>
> More like one to two years. In my area (San Francisco Bay Area) 5G
> deployment has begun but because the 5G phones used most in Europe are
> not sold in the U.S. the use of the 5G infrastructure is extremely low.

5g may have begun, but like other usa cities, it's not usable unless
you're standing outside next to the tower and the phone hasn't
overheated.

> > Devices without 5G are already substandard and have no future. Apple's
> > iPhone 11 will have a very hard time here.
>
> Not just the iPhone 11, but all the late 2019 and early 2020 non 5G
> phones from all manufacturers. All the experts already have stated that
> sales will be down as buyers delay purchases waiting for 5G models.

'all the experts' = you're blowing smoke.

> "Whether it's Samsung, Apple or any other smartphone maker, tech buyers
> are likely to hold out for compatibility with the latest network. In
> addition, high prices for premium devices are stretching out the upgrade
> cycle."
> <https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-preps-iphone-11-but-potential-upgrade-cycle-remains-a-mystery/>

'likely to hold out' = a wild ass guess.

sales of the iphone 11 are stronger than expected, so already, that
claim is flawed.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 02.10.19 um 01:10 schrieb sms:

> On 10/1/2019 9:07 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running. Italy is
>> usually an early adopter of new standards. The Italians love their
>> "Telefoninos"!
>
> What some people don't understand is that 5G doesn't have to be
> ubiquitous in order to be useful. There are large cities with severe
> congestion on their 4G LTE networks and these cities are the first ones
> to have 5G deployed. It also benefits 4G users when there are more 5G
> users because it reduces 4G congestion.

4G consgesetions in large cities und hotspots like train stations and
bus terminals and the like are very often solved with so called small
cells which cover only small areas.

Currently 5G is interesting for industrial companies. Last week I have
seen 5G in the production process of a machine tool company. Because the
tables have to be mobile in all axis they can transmit the data only
with 5G. Wifi or LTE would not work because of latency and limitations
to data-throughput. At the same time they showed the whole milling
process on a 3D-model including all the relevant graphs in real time.
Very impressive.

[JF Mezei]

On 2019-10-01 19:20, sms wrote:

> For Italy, see
> <https://markets.ft.com/data/announce/detail?dockey=1323-13813972-0UVL3CNSIU2S5AD08IRKHK3CIJ>.

Thanks. So 3700mhz is available now for deployment.
*(26HHz too, but I am not sure equipment is ready and this requires
deploying totally new sites due to small coverage area, and likely
no/little in-building penetration.

[Arlen G. Holder]

On Tue, 01 Oct 2019 17:44:09 -0400, nospam wrote:

> To this point, pre-orders for the iPhone 11 reportedly checked in
> significantly higher

Exxon sells imaginary performance with premium gasoline
o Chevron sells imaginary cleaning agents with techron

There's no reason Apple can't also sell imaginary performance
o The fact is clear Apple throttled iPhone 11 PD charging by 70%!

[Arlen G. Holder]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 21:48:46 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Nymshifting again, I see. Filters adjusting in 3..2..1..

Thanks for reminding me to manually sweep the moniker.
o Much appreciated the thoughtful & helpful heads' up!

[Arlen G. Holder]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:10:03 -0700, sms wrote:

> All the experts already have stated that
> sales will be down as buyers delay purchases waiting for 5G models.

Only an utter fool would plunk down $1,500 for a dog slow iPhone 11.

Just like utter fools pay more for premium fuel (for normal engines).
o And just as those utter fools pay more for techron polyetheramines

People believe in imaginary functionality
o Where the facts show the iPhone 11 is dog slow, even when brand new

And let's not even talk about the throttling that will happen
o Where Apple is already throttling iPhone 11 PD charging more than 70%!

(i.e., it's now 30% of what it was when it shipped, just 11 days ago!)

[Arlen G. Holder]

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 05:55:03 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

> Exxon sells imaginary performance with premium gasoline
> o Chevron sells imaginary cleaning agents with techron
>
> There's no reason Apple can't also sell imaginary performance
> o The fact is clear Apple throttled iPhone 11 PD charging by 70%!

Note, the facts are that "normal engines" in good working order
o Can't possibly benefit from premium
o And that all the top-tier fuels have polyetheramines

And yet, people pay more - for no performance gain whatseover.
o The power of marketing

Fools "believe" that the iPhone 11 has performance
o And yet, it's dog slow.

Worse, it's _already_ PD throttled to 30% of when it shipped only weeks ago
o And, likely will get CPU throttling like you can't believe

If you're not disappointed in the iPhone 11 series
o Then you're an utter fool.

[Lewis]

In message <qn0n0r$19g$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 10/1/2019 10:07 AM, JF Mezei wrote:
>> On 2019-10-01 12:07, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>> In Switzerland and most of Western Europe 5G is up and running.
>>
>> Out of curiosity, on what frequemncy bands has it been deployed?

> For Italy, see
> <https://markets.ft.com/data/announce/detail?dockey=1323-13813972-0UVL3CNSIU2S5AD08IRKHK3CIJ>.

> As the article states, 5G is about capacity.

> On my recent trip I was in Milan, where 5G deployment is already fully
> deployed,

BULL. SHIT. Not even the admonkeys are claiming that. You are totally
full of crap.

--
"We're philosophers. We think, therefore we am."

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 02.10.19 um 09:06 schrieb Lewis:

> BULL. SHIT. Not even the admonkeys are claiming that. You are totally
> full of crap.

*PLONK* (again)

[nospam]

In article <qn1e3p$nk5$4...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen G. Holder

<arlen_g...@nospam.edu> wrote:

> Only an utter fool would plunk down $1,500 for a dog slow iPhone 11.

that's because a new iphone 11 is $699, less than half of your claimed
price.

[Arlen .g. Holder]

On Wed, 02 Oct 2019 07:42:27 -0400, nospam wrote:

>> Only an utter fool would plunk down $1,500 for a dog slow iPhone 11.
>
> that's because a new iphone 11 is $699, less than half of your claimed
> price.

The fact you use those ridiculous "99"s ... (e,g., CA sales tax alone adds
more than a far more functional Android phone costs)...

o Is proof you parrot exactly what Apple Marketing fed you to believe

[nospam]

In article <qn2ruq$jd$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen .g. Holder

<Jarl.enen...@nospam.edu> wrote:

>
> >> Only an utter fool would plunk down $1,500 for a dog slow iPhone 11.
> >
> > that's because a new iphone 11 is $699, less than half of your claimed
> > price.
>
> The fact you use those ridiculous "99"s ... (e,g., CA sales tax alone adds
> more than a far more functional Android phone costs)...

the extra dollar and sales tax (which would apply to *any* device, not
just iphones) doesn't change the *fact* that you're full of shit.

[Lloyd Parsons]

Arlen .g. Holder <Jarl.enen...@nospam.edu> wrote:

The fact that you responded in the manner that you did is proof that you
are a complete idiot.

--
Lloyd

[nospam]

In article <gvke5u...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd Parsons

<lloy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> Only an utter fool would plunk down $1,500 for a dog slow iPhone 11.
> >>
> >> that's because a new iphone 11 is $699, less than half of your claimed
> >> price.
> >
> > The fact you use those ridiculous "99"s ... (e,g., CA sales tax alone adds
> > more than a far more functional Android phone costs)...
> >
> > o Is proof you parrot exactly what Apple Marketing fed you to believe
> >
>
> The fact that you responded in the manner that you did is proof that you
> are a complete idiot.

idiots are smarter.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 21:48:46 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

While doing my KF I checked my filters. There are 15 there that are
arlen's...probably more but these used some form of his name. One
would think he isn't welcome here.

[recscub...@huntzinger.com]

JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2019-09-27 -hh wrote:
>> Depends on what your upgrade cycle looks like. Pragmatically, it’s probably
>> going to be a good five years in the USA until 5G becomes adequately
>> deployed broadly, reliable, efficient, and cost-effective for it to move into
>> real “early mainstream” adoption.
>
> 5G on normal frequencies will likely be deployed in a widesread fashion
> within 2-3 years of the tech being mature.

Agreed, with the big question being “when is it [really] mature?”

> So early adopters will see lack of 5G on the iPhone 11 as a drawback
> in a year or two.

Maybe that early, and then primarily for the early adopters to brag they have 5G.

> But by then Apple will likely have a 5G iPhone so lack of 5G on
> previous generations of iPhones such as the 11 won't be a problem.

I expect Apple will wait until the power management is acceptable.

> A lot of the 5G PR hype for lobbying purposes is about 26gHz band with
> extremely limited range. (the one with antenna covering a bus stop for
> instance). That is what will take a very long time.

I have a project in W-band that there’s been commercial interest in because
it’s demonstrated 5GHz of bandwidth. But it’s horribly directional, so it’s really
more suited for infrastructure backhaul than put in devices.

-hh

[recscub...@huntzinger.com]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 7:10:06 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> ...

> What some people don't understand is that 5G doesn't have to be
> ubiquitous in order to be useful. There are large cities with severe
> congestion on their 4G LTE networks and these cities are the first ones
> to have 5G deployed. It also benefits 4G users when there are more 5G

> users because it reduces 4G congestion...

Sure, but that only addresses half of the technology challenge. Another
factor is (at least to my casual follow and understanding) is that the 5G
technology isn't (yet) a transparent change on the mobile device which
would invoke no disadvantages, but apparently has higher power consumption.

As such, in the transitional deployment period, one could be carrying around
a device that because it is "capable", it has (for example) a shorter battery life
as a day-to-day disadvantage while the 5G benefits are uncommon.

-hh

[sms]

On 10/2/2019 4:15 PM, recscub...@huntzinger.com wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> On 2019-09-27 -hh wrote:
>>> Depends on what your upgrade cycle looks like. Pragmatically, it’s probably
>>> going to be a good five years in the USA until 5G becomes adequately
>>> deployed broadly, reliable, efficient, and cost-effective for it to move into
>>> real “early mainstream” adoption.
>>
>> 5G on normal frequencies will likely be deployed in a widesread fashion
>> within 2-3 years of the tech being mature.
>
> Agreed, with the big question being “when is it [really] mature?”

As in Europe, 5G being deployed "broadly" in the U.S. is less important
than it being deployed in areas with high population densities where
there is currently network congestion. And in fact it's those areas of
the U.S. where the 5G deployment is most intense.

The bigger issue in the U.S., for now, is the lack of 5G devices. In
Europe and Asia, where Android dominates, Android manufacturers with 5G
devices continue to increase their market share. In the U.S., where
iPhone dominates, there is less impetus for carriers to rush 5G
deployment and the bigger push will be to be ready in 2020 when the
iPhone 12 with 5G launches.

When I was in Italy last week, the dominant phones were from Huawei and
Samsung and Android's market share has increased dramatically in the
past year due to 5G
<https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share#italy>. That
trend should reverse once there is a 5G iPhone. And look at Ireland
<https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share#ireland>, where
Android had an enormous boost in market share.

The countries where 5G has been deployed have caused a big market share
increase for Android. But these trends are not because iPhone users are
switching to Android to get 5G, it's because Android users are upgrading
their phones and buying 5G devices while iPhone users are delaying their
upgrades waiting for 5G. The iPhone 12 is going to be in extremely high
demand because of so many owners of older iPhones delaying their upgrades.

[nospam]

In article <51680388-b26d-4cba...@googlegroups.com>,

existing 5g phones have significantly worse battery life and overheat
when using 5g, forcing a fallback to 4g. it's not exactly usable if it
only lasts a minute or so and needs an ice pack to continue.

[nospam]

In article <qn3deu$rjp$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> The bigger issue in the U.S., for now, is the lack of 5G devices.

it's not just the usa. there are very few 5g devices available, which
are expensive and not particularly good.

> In
> Europe and Asia, where Android dominates, Android manufacturers with 5G
> devices continue to increase their market share.

not in any appreciable numbers.

> In the U.S., where
> iPhone dominates, there is less impetus for carriers to rush 5G
> deployment and the bigger push will be to be ready in 2020 when the
> iPhone 12 with 5G launches.

nonsense. carriers want their 5g networks to be mostly ready by the
time 5g devices are commonly available, which they are not at this
time.

also, the name of the next iphone is unknown outside of *very* few
people at apple and may not have even been decided yet, however,
history suggests it will be iphone 11s, not 12.

[Lewis]

In message <f4031b34-cf3c-4308...@googlegroups.com> recscub...@huntzinger.com <recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> On 2019-09-27 -hh wrote:
>>> Depends on what your upgrade cycle looks like. Pragmatically, it’s probably
>>> going to be a good five years in the USA until 5G becomes adequately
>>> deployed broadly, reliable, efficient, and cost-effective for it to move into
>>> real “early mainstream” adoption.
>>
>> 5G on normal frequencies will likely be deployed in a widesread fashion
>> within 2-3 years of the tech being mature.

> Agreed, with the big question being “when is it [really] mature?”

>> So early adopters will see lack of 5G on the iPhone 11 as a drawback
>> in a year or two.

> Maybe that early, and then primarily for the early adopters to brag they have 5G.

Maybe No. According to FUDmiester's math, 5G was mature LAST YEAR when
there was literally no 5G.

5G will be mature n 3-5 years outside of a few isolated areas, and will
not be relevant to most people for 3-5 years AFTER THAT.

2025+

And even then, tit is unlikely to offer any speed benefit to users over
the current LTE speeds.


--
I thought that they were angels, but to my surprise, we climbed aboard
their starship, we headed for the skies.

[Lewis]

In message <qn3deu$rjp$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> The bigger issue in the U.S., for now, is the lack of 5G devices. In
> Europe and Asia, where Android dominates, Android manufacturers with 5G
> devices continue to increase their market share.

Bullshot. What is the market share of 5G phones? 0.1%? 0.0001%?

> When I was in Italy last week, the dominant phones were from Huawei and

Irrelevant. How many f the phones in use are 5G phones?

> Samsung and Android's market share has increased dramatically in the
> past year due to 5G

Bullshit. Back up your nonsense claims or stop making them.

> <https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share#italy>. That
> trend should reverse once there is a 5G iPhone. And look at Ireland
> <https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share#ireland>, where
> Android had an enormous boost in market share.

Nothing at all to do with the myth of 5G you keep trying to spread.

> The countries where 5G has been deployed

That would be all 0 countries.

> have caused a big market share increase for Android.

Nope.

--
She hated everything that predestined people, that fooled them, that
made them slightly less than human. --Witches Abroad

[nospam]

In article <slrnqpasb2....@darth.lan>, Lewis

<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> >> So early adopters will see lack of 5G on the iPhone 11 as a drawback
> >> in a year or two.
>
> > Maybe that early, and then primarily for the early adopters to brag they
> > have 5G.
>
> Maybe No. According to FUDmiester's math, 5G was mature LAST YEAR when
> there was literally no 5G.
>
> 5G will be mature n 3-5 years outside of a few isolated areas, and will
> not be relevant to most people for 3-5 years AFTER THAT.
>
> 2025+

yep.

<https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/gsma-tempers-expectations-for-5
g>
Despite all the investment and hype surrounding 5G, uptake is still
going to take many years to reach fruition. The trade industry body
predicts 5G will comprise 15% of global mobile connections by 2025.
However, 5G in the United States will account for roughly half of all
connections. Europe and China will see about 30% of all connections
via 5G by 2025, according to GSMA.

note that the usa will be *ahead* of the rest of the world by more than
threefold, 50% versus 15%, the *opposite* of what the resident trolls
are claiming.

<https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/23/analyst-craig-moffett-sees-no-chance-of-
5g-becoming-ubiquitous-by-2021.html>
Thereıs no chance that fifth-generation wireless, or 5G, will become
available everywhere in two yearsı time, according to Craig Moffett,
who has been a leading telecommunications analyst for years.

> And even then, tit is unlikely to offer any speed benefit to users over
> the current LTE speeds.

it already does, at least in the few spots it's available, that is, up
until the phones overheat, which is about a minute or so. bring ice.

[Arlen .g. Holder]

On Wed, 02 Oct 2019 20:08:54 -0400, nospam wrote:

> existing 5g phones have significantly worse battery life and overheat
> when using 5g, forcing a fallback to 4g. it's not exactly usable if it
> only lasts a minute or so and needs an ice pack to continue.

Every time you mention teething pains of the modern phones, nospam,
o I'm going to remind you that Apple can't even play catchup to them.

Where's Apple's bilateral charging, for example, nospam?
o And why did Apple drastically throttle iPhone 11 PD charging, nospam?

Hell ... Apple can't even ship something as simple as iOS
o Without bugs so huge that four releases in a few days is "normal" now.

What evidence do you have, nospam, that Apple won't have 5G teething pains?

[Arlen .g. Holder]

On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 00:11:29 -0400, nospam wrote:

> Despite all the investment and hype surrounding 5G, uptake is still
> going to take many years to reach fruition

All the Apple Apologists fail to comprehend that Apple surrendered YOUR
BILLIONS of dollars to Qualcomm ... for very good business reasons.

IMHO... Apple would have disappeared as a smartphone supplier
o Just as Blcokbuster disappeared as a video tape supplier

If Apple had waited a moment longer for modern networking speeds.
o Without 5G, Apple instantly disappears as a premium smartphone provider.

It's that important.

--
Despite the fact apologists repeatedly claimed Apple "wasn't worried".

[Arlen .g. Holder]

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:56:13 -0700, sms wrote:

> The countries where 5G has been deployed have caused a big market share
> increase for Android. But these trends are not because iPhone users are
> switching to Android to get 5G, it's because Android users are upgrading
> their phones and buying 5G devices while iPhone users are delaying their
> upgrades waiting for 5G. The iPhone 12 is going to be in extremely high
> demand because of so many owners of older iPhones delaying their upgrades.

This is reasonable logic based on an adult assessment of the facts.

[Arlen .g. Holder]

On Wed, 02 Oct 2019 17:33:06 -0500, B...@Onramp.net wrote:

> While doing my KF I checked my filters. There are 15 there that are
> arlen's...probably more but these used some form of his name. One
> would think he isn't welcome here.

Hi BK,

While I add a ton of factual value to this newsgroup...
o Bearing in mind my facts have NEVER been materially wrong... (1)

Let me tell you something that I've told you before
o Which applies to _all_ the worthless Apple apologists on this ng, BK.

Not just to you - but to the entire score of worthless apologists.
o I am directly trying to alienate you - BK. Yes. Directly. YOU.

How long does it take YOU to figure out what everyone else already knows?
o Never once have you _ever_ added technical value to any thread, BK.

Never once.

There's a _reason_ I directly alienate people like you, BK.
o I do it on purpose.

The _less_ you post to this newsgroup, BK, the BETTER its factual value.

Same with the others listed below...
o Alan Baker <nu...@ness.biz>
o Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com>
o Andreas Rutishauser <and...@macandreas.ch>
o Beedle <Bee...@dont-email.me>
o B...@Onramp.net
o Chris <ithi...@gmail.com>
o Davoud <st...@sky.net>
o Elden <use...@moondog.org>
o Elfin <elfi...@gmail.com> (aka Lloyd, aka Lloyd Parsons)
o Hemidactylus <ecph...@allspamis.invalid>
o joe <no...@domain.invalid>
o Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
o Johan <JH...@nospam.invalid>
o Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com>
o Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
o Lloyd <elfi...@gmail.com> (aka "Elfin")
o Lloyd Parsons <lloy...@gmail.com> (aka "Elfin")
o Meanie <M...@gmail.com>
o nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> (bullshitter par excellence)
o Panthera Tigris Altaica <northe...@outlook.com>
o Sandman <m...@sandman.net> (hates any and all facts about Apple)
o Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
o Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> (aka Michael Glasser)
o Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net>
o Wade Garrett <wa...@cooler.net>
o Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com>
o et al.

--
(1) I'm human, and Usenet is casual, so I must have gotten one fact or two
materially wrong in the decades, but the fact is my belief system is not
only based on facts, but it's bolstered by facts - so if a fact changes
over time, I simply modify the belief sysetem to incorporate that fact.
It's how adult brains work.

[Chris]

I'm not going to bother looking, but I'm sure I have many more than that.
He changes his nym subtly and intentionally to avoid KFs. He used to argue
it was all to do with "privacy". No one believed it then nor do we now.
He's a troll through and through. No one would miss him if he left and i
just wish people would stop baiting him.

[recscub...@huntzinger.com]

Lewis wrote:

> -hh wrote:
> > JF Mezei wrote:
> >> On 2019-09-27 -hh wrote:
> >>> Depends on what your upgrade cycle looks like. Pragmatically, it’s probably
> >>> going to be a good five years in the USA until 5G becomes adequately
> >>> deployed broadly, reliable, efficient, and cost-effective for it to move into
> >>> real “early mainstream” adoption.
> >>
> >> 5G on normal frequencies will likely be deployed in a widesread fashion
> >> within 2-3 years of the tech being mature.
>
> > Agreed, with the big question being “when is it [really] mature?”
>
> >> So early adopters will see lack of 5G on the iPhone 11 as a drawback
> >> in a year or two.
>
> > Maybe that early, and then primarily for the early adopters to brag they have 5G.
>
> Maybe No. According to FUDmiester's math, 5G was mature LAST YEAR when
> there was literally no 5G.
>
> 5G will be mature n 3-5 years outside of a few isolated areas, and will
> not be relevant to most people for 3-5 years AFTER THAT.
>
> 2025+

Sorry, I apparently wasn't adequately clear: my "year or two" timeline here
is relevant just to early adopters (to brag about having), not mainstream.


This is merely recognizing that there's always going to be some segment
of "Bleeding Edge" early adopters who wants the 1st Generation new stuff
mostly for the bragging rights, not actual utility.

In contrast, the "Early Mainstream" adopters (by virtual definition) invariably
will pass on 1st Generation systems and wait for 2nd Generation, to reduce
the pain of the trade-offs that came in the 1st Generation.

For example, this is how I'm personally seeing the hype on bilateral charging.

Sure, its a neat tech idea ... but just how much is it _really_ a meaningful
capability? Particularly to then differentiate products on? I'm still scratching
my head on how it is more than merely "keen!", sorry.


-hh

[sms]

On 10/3/2019 12:35 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

> I'm not going to bother looking, but I'm sure I have many more than that.
> He changes his nym subtly and intentionally to avoid KFs. He used to argue
> it was all to do with "privacy". No one believed it then nor do we now.
> He's a troll through and through. No one would miss him if he left and i
> just wish people would stop baiting him.

On Thunderbird you can design your filters using "contains" rather than
"is" and reduce the need to continually add new filters for him.

[Savageduck]

On Oct 3, 2019, sms wrote
(in article <qn4pjl$m67$1...@dont-email.me>):

Yup!

The comprehensive *Hogwasher* filters I have for “The Santa Clara subtle
Nymshifter”, and the nymshifting “Boater Dave of Devon”/“BD", who
also uses subtle nymshifts, need minimal maintenance due to use of
“contains” as well as some specific X-posted NGs in the filters. The
result is, the only time I see any of their writing is when their unwitting
responders quote them.

He seems to have stuck to subtly shifting within the “AH” nym for
sometime, I have been expecting a new character to present himself soon.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

[sms]

On 10/3/2019 4:27 AM, recscub...@huntzinger.com wrote:

> In contrast, the "Early Mainstream" adopters (by virtual definition) invariably
> will pass on 1st Generation systems and wait for 2nd Generation, to reduce
> the pain of the trade-offs that came in the 1st Generation.

The categories of adopters are innovators, early adopters, early
majority, late majority, late adopters, and laggards.

Exactly. And the iPhone 12 will probably have the second generation of
Qualcomm's 5G modem, the X55. The second generation X55 modem is already
shipping in other phones. So there will be no need to wait for the
iPhone 13 which will be the second iPhone with 5G, the iPhone 12 (or
11s) will be just fine.

The problem is that early majority through late majority delay
purchasing new products while they wait for the second generation. I
fall into one of those categories, as do most people. They don't upgrade
to the last generation of the older technology unless there's a big
incentive, price-wise, to do so. That's why you're seeing the odd and
sudden swings in market share in countries that have already deployed
large amounts of 5G infrastructure, i.e.
<https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share#ireland>.

The late adopters and laggards wait even longer, and you already see
Qualcomm developing lower-end products for them.

It's not like the relative numbers of Android and iOS users are
changing, it's that early majority Android owners are starting to
upgrade to 5G phones while iPhone users are waiting.

You can see the retention rates per operating system at
<https://www.cirpllc.com/blog/2018/3/21/mobile-operating-system-loyalty-high-and-steady>.
When you keep a phone for 3-5 years you probably aren't going to upgrade
just before an important new feature is coming even if the utility of
that feature won't be available for another one to two years.

You often hear the talking point of "more Android users switch to iOS
than iOS users switch to Android, and no doubt that's true, in absolute
numbers, despite the higher loyalty of Android users, because there are
about 3.5x the number of Android users than iOS users
<https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide>.

> For example, this is how I'm personally seeing the hype on bilateral charging.
>
> Sure, its a neat tech idea ... but just how much is it _really_ a meaningful
> capability? Particularly to then differentiate products on? I'm still scratching
> my head on how it is more than merely "keen!", sorry.

It's a bad technology. When on vacation my wife is endlessly stopping to
take pictures, to the point of depleting her battery in only six or
seven hours. Often we are out walking or cycling with no mains outlet.
She then wants to use an external battery but I try to lighten the load
I'm carrying so may not have it with me. If we had bilateral charging
she'd demand to use some of the capacity from my phone.

[recscub...@huntzinger.com]

sms wrote:
> -hh wrote:
> > ...

> > In contrast, the "Early Mainstream" adopters (by virtual
> > definition) invariably will pass on 1st Generation systems
> > and wait for 2nd Generation, to reduce the pain of the
> > trade-offs that came in the 1st Generation.
>
> The categories of adopters are innovators, early adopters,
> early majority, late majority, late adopters, and laggards.

Yes, and all I was noting is that because the timelines of
adoption vary by said categories, when we're talking about
deployment timelines, clarity is important in our communications
to avoid accidently conflating subgroup A's adoption timeline
with subgroup B's adoption timeline, etc.

> ... the iPhone 12 will probably have the second generation of

> Qualcomm's 5G modem, the X55. The second generation X55 modem
> is already shipping in other phones.

Sure, with of course assuming that the X55 passes whatever
criteria that Apple imposes for its adoption into production.
This is probably more than merely power consumption & unit cost,
particularly if they use the TRL & MRL metrics.

(TRL = Technology Readiness Level; MRL = Manufacturing R.L.)

> > For example, this is how I'm personally seeing the hype
> > on bilateral charging. Sure, its a neat tech idea ... but
> > just how much is it _really_ a meaningful capability?
> > Particularly to then differentiate products on? I'm still
> > scratching my head on how it is more than merely "keen!", sorry.
>
> It's a bad technology.

I know that Inductive charging is inherently inefficient, but
I'm even setting that aside for the moment; my initial view is
merely at the 'utility' perspective.

> When on vacation my wife is endlessly stopping to
> take pictures, to the point of depleting her battery
> in only six or seven hours. Often we are out walking
> or cycling with no mains outlet. She then wants to use
> an external battery but I try to lighten the load I'm
> carrying so may not have it with me. If we had bilateral
> charging she'd demand to use some of the capacity from my phone.

This is a bit reminiscent of my concerns in the early days of
the iPhone, where I saw its use as an iPod replacement had the
ramifications that the "entertainment" use could result in a
dead battery that would then deny its use as a cellphone.
The good news was that the MP3 function wasn't all that bad
of a battery killer...


-hh

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 05:29:41 -0700, sms wrote:

> On Thunderbird you can design your filters using "contains" rather than
> "is" and reduce the need to continually add new filters for him.

Hi Steve,

My self-assigned role on this newsgroup is to bring TRUTH to the group.
o I _want_ the morons to filter me out - because they add no factual value.

Those who wish to ignore facts, _should_ (by all means) filter me out.
o Facts seem to disturb them.

The fact is that you wussied out yourself, when you were caught being dead
wrong on the Qualcomm royalties ... and when you said I was only 60%
correct.

Both are dead wrong - and I challenged you on both.
o You ignored the challenge.

Generally what you say is reasonable - but - you won't admit when you're
dead wrong - which is a detriment to your character.

At least I'll admit when/if I'm wrong since facts aren't emotional things
to me - they're just facts.

My self-assigned role on this newsgroup is to bring TRUTH to the group.
o I _want_ the morons to filter me out - because they add no factual value.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:24:40 -0700, sms wrote:

> It's not like the relative numbers of Android and iOS users are
> changing, it's that early majority Android owners are starting to
> upgrade to 5G phones while iPhone users are waiting.

Hi Steve,

What you write is reasonable.

You say it more diplomatically than I, since you say it sans the utter
disdain that I have for the fools who believe in imaginary functionality.

Every time I see anyone with an iPhone, I challenge them "why", even if
it's just in the Costco line while waiting to check out my groceries.

They always try to bullshit me - parroting imaginary functionality.
o It's one reason I claim that Apple marketing is brilliant.

BTW, so is Chevron marketing (e.g., Techron).
o Marketing works great on fools - who don't comprehend facts.

It makes fools pay more for what turns out to be imaginary functionality.

In the case of 5G, Apple surrendered BILLIONS to get their hands on it.

WARNING: Adult concept:
I posit it's not so much that they needed 5G - but that they
needed the MARKETING of 5G since without 5G, it's obvious to
everyone that Apple iPhones are mired in the Stone Age.

With 5G in 2020, Apple can at least claim to be "modern" even though
everything else is still mired in the Stone Age (like the launcher).

The fact is, as you're aware, I own both iOS & Android - and once I had a
screen large enough on my $130 phone, I can't think of a single thing that
the iPad does that I can't do better on Android - and certainly - there's
_plenty_ on Android that can't even be done on iOS (e.g., privacy).

I used to think Marketing of imaginary functionality would, eventually
fail; but they _still_ sell Techron (aka polyetheramines) in Costco by the
case - so there are a LOT of fools out there who don't know a lick about
chemistry who pay good money for completely imaginary performance.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 04:27:55 -0700 (PDT), recscub...@huntzinger.com
wrote:

> For example, this is how I'm personally seeing the hype on bilateral charging.
>
> Sure, its a neat tech idea ... but just how much is it _really_ a meaningful
> capability? Particularly to then differentiate products on? I'm still scratching
> my head on how it is more than merely "keen!", sorry.

The way I see "bilateral charging" is that it proves what is obvious to all
but the apologists - which is that Apple engineering is incompetent - they
can't even get something as simple as bilateral charging right.

They're playing catchup on almost everything... Android is that far ahead.
o This is important because they're attempting to be in the premium market

The truth is that Apple engineering is _clearly_ not competent.
o They can't get the iOS diarrhea right (look at iOS 13 for Christs' sake).
o They can't even get the bootrom right (almost every iPhone is insecure).
o Hell, they can't even get Safari right (Google proved that, in spades).

They can't even get modems right (they had to throttle Qualcomm modems).
o And they had to surrender your BILLIONS of dollars to get 5G access.

If Apple had waited a moment longer for modern networking speeds.
o Without 5G, Apple instantly disappears as a premium smartphone provider.

--
You don't have to like facts; but they're still facts.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 06:07:41 -0700, Savageduck wrote:

> He seems to have stuck to subtly shifting within the ´AH¡ nym for
> sometime, I have been expecting a new character to present himself soon.

Hi Savageduck,

My self-assigned role on this newsgroup is to bring TRUTH to the group.
o I _want_ the morons to filter me out - because they add no factual value.

I used to not put you in the apologists listing, but then you tried to
bullshit us time and again, for example, when you played your silly
childish games about 'iOS cameras'.

It was then that I realized you're as immune to facts as are the rest.

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that
Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> <B...@Onramp.net> wrote:
> >
> > While doing my KF I checked my filters. There are 15 there that are
> > arlen's...probably more but these used some form of his name. One
> > would think he isn't welcome here.
>
> I'm not going to bother looking, but I'm sure I have many more than that.

I have zero, and I haven’t seen any of his messages (other than via
replies). Why? He posts through mixmin.net, and I filter out anything
from that cesspool. I highly recommend it.

> He's a troll through and through. No one would miss him if he left and i
> just wish people would stop baiting him.

If they can’t stop, they’re trolls themselves. Drop them in the kill
file, too. I’ve already done it with B...@Onramp.net, and I see enough
garbage coming from 4ax.com that I might soon add an entry for that
whole section of Usenet.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

[recscub...@huntzinger.com]

On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 10:56:31 AM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:

> -hh wrote:
>
> > For example, this is how I'm personally seeing the hype
> > on bilateral charging.
> >
> > Sure, its a neat tech idea ... but just how much is it
> > _really_ a meaningful capability? Particularly to then
> > differentiate products on? I'm still scratching my
> > head on how it is more than merely "keen!", sorry.
>

> The way I see "bilateral charging" is ...

Utterly ignorant, and irrelevant, to the capability discussion.


-hh

[B...@onramp.net]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 15:10:10 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary

I don't recall "baiting" Arlen. I just KF all his nyms, sometimes
with a comment. I agree that there are several that respond to each
and every post of his and that they should stop.
Since you don't see my posts I hope that someone responds to this one
so you are apprised of my response.

[Lewis]

In message <a19e3135-e6b0-4d39...@googlegroups.com> recscub...@huntzinger.com <recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote:
> For example, this is how I'm personally seeing the hype on bilateral charging.

> Sure, its a neat tech idea ... but just how much is it _really_ a meaningful
> capability? Particularly to then differentiate products on? I'm still scratching
> my head on how it is more than merely "keen!", sorry.

It's neat idea that has essentially no practical application. The
amount of energy you use to power up the coil means you are taking a
significant amount of your devices charge to impart a tiny amount of
charge to another device.

--
Everybody wants a rock to wrap a piece of string around

[Lewis]

In message <qn530i$emv$1...@dont-email.me> Doc O'Leary <drol...@2017usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> <B...@Onramp.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > While doing my KF I checked my filters. There are 15 there that are
>> > arlen's...probably more but these used some form of his name. One
>> > would think he isn't welcome here.
>>
>> I'm not going to bother looking, but I'm sure I have many more than that.

> I have zero, and I haven’t seen any of his messages (other than via
> replies). Why? He posts through mixmin.net, and I filter out anything
> from that cesspool. I highly recommend it.

That killed too much for me, but yes, that is certainly a way to kill
all the shitbag's posts.

Might be worth revisiting.


--
'Why is it all Mr Dibbler's films are set against the background of a
world gone mad?' said the dwarf. Soll's eyes narrowed. 'Because Mr
Dibbler,' he growled, 'is a very observant man.' --Moving Pictures

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Oct 2019 17:20:59 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> Yep. It's inefficient as fuck. Wireless charging in general is also
> inefficient as fuck as well.

What's amazing is how many apologies for Apple's lack of modern technology
the apologists can come up with.

Their apologies for Apple's lack of modern technology are infinite.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 08:36:07 -0700 (PDT), recscub...@huntzinger.com
wrote:

> Utterly ignorant, and irrelevant, to the capability discussion.

The question is whether you're disappointed that the new Apple iPhone
doesn't have modern technology.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 15:10:10 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that
> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> <B...@Onramp.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> While doing my KF I checked my filters. There are 15 there that are
>>> arlen's...probably more but these used some form of his name. One
>>> would think he isn't welcome here.
>>
>> I'm not going to bother looking, but I'm sure I have many more than that.
>

> I have zero, and I haven┤ seen any of his messages (other than via

> replies). Why? He posts through mixmin.net, and I filter out anything
> from that cesspool. I highly recommend it.
>
>> He's a troll through and through. No one would miss him if he left and i
>> just wish people would stop baiting him.
>

> If they can┤ stop, they┴e trolls themselves. Drop them in the kill
> file, too. I▔e already done it with B...@Onramp.net, and I see enough

> garbage coming from 4ax.com that I might soon add an entry for that
> whole section of Usenet.

Hey Doc O'Leary,

If you want to killfile me, why not just ask me to put a line in my header?
Let me know as I can put anything I want in any header line I want to.
So just let me know what you want so you can ignore facts more easily.

[recscub...@huntzinger.com]

On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 12:58:39 PM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:

> -hh wrote:
> > For example, this is how I'm personally seeing the hype
> > on bilateral charging.
>
> > Sure, its a neat tech idea ... but just how much is it
> > _really_ a meaningful capability? Particularly to then
> > differentiate products on? I'm still scratching
> > my head on how it is more than merely "keen!", sorry.
>
> It's neat idea that has essentially no practical application. The
> amount of energy you use to power up the coil means you are taking a
> significant amount of your devices charge to impart a tiny amount of
> charge to another device.

Yes, the poor energy efficiency of inductive coupling is another
factor, but I wasn't even bothering with that yet; I'm still asking
for proving the basic utilitarian goodness, ie, "does this feature
provide a capability which is of a net positive value?".

Until the answer to that question is 'yes', it is not possible
to be disappointed in a product due to a lack of that feature.


-hh

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:02:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:

> Might be worth revisiting.

Hi Lewis,

Since your posts cannot possible every add adult value...
o Why not just ask me to put a line for you in my header?

For example, something like this is apropos (it fits you perfectly).

X-Header: Lewis prefers to eternally remain ignorant of facts.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 10:51:36 -0500, B...@Onramp.net wrote:

> I don't recall "baiting" Arlen. I just KF all his nyms, sometimes
> with a comment. I agree that there are several that respond to each
> and every post of his and that they should stop.
> Since you don't see my posts I hope that someone responds to this one
> so you are apprised of my response.

Hi BK,

Thank you for your astute observation of fact, surprisingly.

Since you can't possibly ever add any adult value to any technical
conversation, I, for one, appreciate that you don't "bait" me, where you
and Jolly Roger learned that I prove you're both absolute & utter morons in
all respects whenever you try.

Someone needs to teach nospam and Alan Baker that lesson, since they still
attempt to pull their bullshit on this newgroup, where my goal is to bring
TRUTH and FACT - which is contrary to what they post.

Given the list of absolute morons below, if you can get _them_ to stop
'baiting' me, then we can eliminate most of the worthless posts on this
newsgroup where I have to shoot them down.

While it's trivial to prove you're all utter morons, the last people who
seem to realize this, are the folks like Alan Baker & nospam.

At least you and Jolly Roger have accepted the fact you're morons.
o Which is ok. As it's a fact that we all already knew.

In short, if we could just get the list of proven morons below to filter me
out on a specific header, I'll be _glad_ to provide you that header.

Deal?

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:51:16 -0700 (PDT), recscub...@huntzinger.com
wrote:

> ie, "does this feature
> provide a capability which is of a net positive value?".
>
> Until the answer to that question is 'yes', it is not possible
> to be disappointed in a product due to a lack of that feature.

It's shocking to see a reasonable assessment of fact on this ng.

Kudos to recscub...@huntzinger.com for having an adult opinion.

There's a reason recscub...@huntzinger.com isn't on this list...

[Factual - Truth]

In response to what Arlen Holder wrote below:

> Hey Doc O'Leary,
>
> If you want to killfile me, why not just ask me to put a line in my header?
> Let me know as I can put anything I want in any header line I want to.
> So just let me know what you want so you can ignore facts more easily.

Hey Doc O'Leary,

How about this header?
You could just filter on the words 'fact' or 'truth".

That would accomplish your goal of remaining ignorant, would it not?

Certainly it would increase the S:N ratio with the morons out of the
conversation spewing their bullshit, would it not?

I'm doing this for you ... so I hope you appreciate that fact.

Let me know if I need to improve the header so you and the known morons
below can better ignore facts in order for you to remain ignorant.

--

[Savageduck]

On Oct 3, 2019, Factual - Truth wrote
(in article <qn5hi6$vfi$1...@adenine.netfront.net>):

<<Arrogant bloviated troll removed>>

Well that was a simple kill.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

[nospam]

In article <qn5cdo$etq$1...@adenine.netfront.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen....@holder.edu> wrote:

>
> If you want to killfile me, why not just ask me to put a line in my header?

please put a line in your header.

> Let me know as I can put anything I want in any header line I want to.

how about "ignorant disruptive troll"

> So just let me know what you want so I can ignore facts more easily.

ftfy