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Diana Napolis, koOky former California CPS Caseworker

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Greegor

unread,
Nov 2, 2009, 11:20:32 PM11/2/09
to
On Nov 2, 12:12 pm, Cat in Seattle <mntl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are some serious problems with this glowing report that gets CPS
> off the hook.
>
> 1. While children usually tell the truth, it is how that "truth" is
> obtained and then how it is interpreted. Kids want approval.
> a. Interrogators of children often put suggestions into a kid's head
> by the very questioning they ask.
> b. What is this "truth" they speak about with kids? It all depends on
> the interrogating adult's interpretation of the child's statements.
> Young kids often tell the truth but in their words and from their
> perspective that is not understood by the interrogator. The
> interrogator takes what they say without doing any further
> investigations, only use it to “prove their case..
> c. All paid employees related to CPS have a stake to make when they
> make allegations, mostly because they live off the backs of kids and
> family's miseries. The more they can make of allegations; the more
> trauma they can cause, which is job security. Often these workers are
> personally rewarded for every child they take ~ so why wouldn't they
> gin up allegations when it gives them awards, a paycheck and all that
> sympathy they are so holy for “protecting little babies’ when in truth
> they benefit from not telling the truth?
>
> 2. As for all these confessions. Many people enter guilty pleas
> rather than put a child through a harrowing court trial and because
> they do not have the funds to adequately defend themselves. This is
> always counted as a "confession" when in truth it is way for the
> accused to get through the horrible ordeal of the accusations.
>
> 3. Allegations whether criminal or not, always stand with little way
> to refute CPS. They have the unconstitutional right to interrogate
> kids and then make these allegations to suit their purposes and remove
> them with little scrutiny and are no hekd accountable even when they
> could be proven false. These allegations false or not, last for a
> lifetime for the accused, without any way to refute them.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYcQMR86ggY&feature=related
>
> 4. People, remember that every child taken reaps a financial reward
> for the courts, CPS, and all other accusers. Federal money is given
> according to how many kids have been taken. Read title IV-E, that
> will spell it out as to the money allocated for foster care and
> adoption ~ btw relatives usually receive NOTHING, they work for free.
> A recent relative care giver made spreadsheets for the care she gave
> with 24/7 care for 4 years with NO compensation. At minimum wage it
> came out to over $270,000 of FREE care. Meanwhile she is at risk for
> being falsely accused of neglect and maltreatment with myriads of
> witnesses who know different that CPS REFUSED TO INVESTIGATE BECAUSE
> IT WOULD REFUTE THEIR FALSE CHARGES.
>
> 5. Neither kids nor their families have decent advocates. Little kids
> do not even merit an attorney for an advocate, merely volunteers whose
> say in court is about the only thing counted. CASA is merely a rubber
> stamp for DSHS agencies, they are not representing kids, even though
> they pretend protections of the child is their mission. It is not
> near any protection except for themselves and the DSHS agency. .
> a. Families often cannot afford to defend themselves, especially
> relative care takers and foster parents who are trying to adopt. Even
> if they can afford a lawyer, he/she does not have any say in court nor
> any way to refute allegations. It costs families hundreds of thousands
> of dollars they do not have and CPS knows it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaA2ohqTNsQ&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC7FxvYUKzw&feature=related
>
> 6. While states are strapped, this only means more reason to "get that
> money" at any cost, who cares what cost it is to the child as CPS
> agencies are funded on the basis of traumatizing them?. More often
> than not little kids are suddenly take with no explanation nor even a
> chance to say good-bye. They are then lied to about the disappearance
> of the people they love. They suffer life-long trauma over this,
> often detachment disorders that affect them for the rest of their
> lives. As a matter of fact, when these kids are taken it AGAIN it
> means another money bomb for the agencies.
> a. There are indications in research that parents and families are the
> best for a child, even if they have "issues." However their
> "psychological evaluations" are rigged:
>
> 7. Shoddy "investigations" that are more like witch hunts are the
> prevalent practices of CPS. The CWLA (Child Welfare League of
> America) report admits that: "The findings of the federal Child and
> Family Service Reviews have clearly demonstrated that the more time a
> caseworker spends with a child and family, the better the outcomes for
> those children and families ..." However, the case manager supported
> by their offices, often refuse to do a thorough research on the
> families of the children they are supposed to represent in order
> to ..." Workers spend on the average of 2-4 hours per month per child
> ~ and most of that is filling out paperwork that has little to do with
> "spending time" with any family. Yet they count this paperwork time
> as “spending time" when in fact it is not and do not even come close
> to the amount of time they should spend and therefore regularly some
> to "conclusions" that are terrible for the child.
> a. Do *not* give the excuse that case managers have a lot of cases.
> They chose this profession and chose the job. Furthermore they have a
> moral obligation as they are the lynchpin (yes I spelled lynchpin
> correctly, as in "lynch" as they regularly do to families) to a
> child's stability with their decisions.
>
> 8. Terminating parental rights and adoptions is BIG BUSINESS reaping
> billions of dollars per state. AFSA sets quotas for State for
> kidnapping and selling kids, and if quota are exceeded they are
> rewarded and can make all the false allegations they wish since they
> are not held accountable CPS gets between $5000-10,000 per kid every
> time they are taken and moved.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qfbu2SxvM8&feature=related
>
> 9. Juvenile courts, non-profits, and judges are conflicting interests
> while placing children. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?_r=1&em;
> .
>
> Do not say this is an odd case, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
> Oregon state has a juvenile judge who employs almost her whole court
> with her extended family: Nevada is missing millions of dollars that
> are unaccounted with little oversight and NO accountability.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86IHL8L9tIo&feature=related. Nobody
> watches, no official demands accountability, in all 50 states.
>
> So tell us again about how 'true" these allegations are when in fact
> the agencies themselves get rewarded every time they twist the truth
> and lie about a family, in additions to when they tell the truth and
> how they "interpret" kids' statements, when in fact they are pressured
> by their State to do a shoddy and incomplete job while working in a
> liaise-faire agency with all the power and no accountability. False
> allegations that stand without any way for the accused to refute them
> happens all the time.
>
> And CPS affiliates merely hide behind phrases such as "in the best
> interest of the child, “confidentiality” and other “reasons” to cover
> up their falsehoods by refusing citizens any voice in court. If they
> are so truthful why are they so afraid to publish or even release to a
> court of law or the media the truth? It is an easy matter to remove
> real kids and family names and replace them with aliases and done all
> the time.
>
> I could say more but …had to comment on this transparent attempt to
> legitimize CPS when in fact it is an unconstitutional entity that
> profits off of kids by breaking up families in order to keep their
> jobs.
>
> Cat in Seattle


Well said.

The person you answered appears to be Diana Napolis,
famous for being a mentally ill California caseworker.

The person obsessively posts about the
SAME OBSESSIONS as Diana Napolis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_lMyMi3UdQ

The regulars here have almost given up on
answering the stuff she SPAMS to various
related newsgroups.

She tends to not answer questions or comments,
operating in a sort of blind cult-like mode.

Learn more about her by Googling Diana Napolis or
Karen "Curio" Jones one of her old alias names.

Her own blog is so mentally ill that it's funny.

CPS didn't dump her out for being so extremely mentally ill
until she made national headlines and to avoid the
PR disaster they dumped her.

Targeted families are regularly and routinely ordered
into psych evals with no probable cause (Constitution?)
but I have NEVER heard of a family succeeding at
getting the caseworker ordered into a psych eval.

Of course, if they did, they would probably rig the
hell out of the psych eval anyway, and if it went
badly it would become almost top secret!

The caseworker's HIPAA privacy rights you know!

LOL

Could you imagine having Napolis sitting in judgement
of YOUR family?

She actually believes this mentally ill crap
that false allegations of child sexual abuse
are extremely rare.

The CLASSIC where a 14 year old girl tells
such LIES to get rid of a new stepdad because
she wants Mom all to herself is well known.

Caseworkers KNOW how common that one is,
although they pretend that it's not, because
they take advantage of those BS cases
to secure their jobs as you said.

There's a MYTH that lots of caseworkers
spew that kids do not lie.

It's likewise, profitable for caseworkers to
push this lie.

Another variation I've run across several times
is that the case gets sorted out and Mom
actually doesn't want the BRAT back because
she needs to protect the OTHER kids and
new stepdad from the little hellraiser.

Ironically, the girl who falsely claimed rape
stands a BIG percentage chance of being
raped over and over in Foster care.

It can be a nasty cosmic justice in that sort of case.

In some of these cases, where the kid LIED
to get into foster care, her complaints about being
raped are written off as LIES, by the same
people who much earlier said that kids don't lie!

But Diana is the most extrerme of the KOOK
caseworkers in that she genuinely sees abuse
behind almost EVERY door!

She thinks ritual stanic child abuse is common!

Can you imagine a nut case like her accusing you
of Munchausens By Proxy? I bet she did!

She's never said so, but you just KNOW that
Diana claims she was abused as a child.

This kind of thing came up in discussions of
a news story recently when a kid shot
his Dad to death claiming his Dad disciplined
him too much.

I asked if ANY kid doesn't think that ANY
discipline is too much!

I bet EVERY kid thinks they are SO VERY
put upon, so abused when they are disciplined
in any way, spanking or not!

It's like asking somebody if they could
use more money. Who would not say yes?

Kids compare notes to see who's got it
the WORST, and the winner of this wierd
whiney contest is considered cool somehow.

We have an entire CULTURE of people
falsely claiming victimhood.

Whether Diana truly was abused as a child, or
whether her mental illness has her falsely
BELIEVING she was, EITHER WAY, somebody
like that should NOT be a CPS caseworker!

Message has been deleted

Greegor

unread,
Nov 3, 2009, 6:09:20 PM11/3/09
to
G >Well said.
G >
G > The person you answered appears
G > to be Diana Napolis, famous for
G > being a mentally ill California caseworker.
G >
G > The person obsessively posts about the
G > SAME OBSESSIONS as Diana Napolis.

KBW > I've never seen a post from CA about
KBW > Jennifer Love Hewitt. I admit I don't
KBW > read much of what CA posts, so it
KBW > is possible. Could you supply the
KBW > MID and.or Google link to at least
KBW > one post from CA about Jennifer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_lMyMi3UdQ

Anybody can look up Diana Napolis AKA Karen "Curio" Jones.
Almost as easily as looking up Kent Bradley Wills.

http://www.bbs.ca.gov/pdf/enf_docs/fy0304/mf2003530.pdf

http://www.xeper.org/maquino/nm/Napolis.pdf

http://members.cox.net/court50/lettertohume.pdf

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Misc/misc.legal/2008-06/msg00403.html

This is my FAVORITE. Diana wrote to try to overturn
some old research results that said that satanic
child abuse does not exist. She used the
pseudonym Rory Hume and complained that
the professor involved wrote back to her under
her real name!

She tried to complain that it was unprofessional!

Do you think some professional should take
the word of some famous nutcase using
a bogus name, to change their research results?

http://members.cox.net/court50/lettertohume.pdf

Preview Page 1 of 3
Date: Monday, April 14, 2008 10: 11 AM From: Rory Hume
<Rory...@ucop.edu> To: Steven Beckwith <steven....@ucop.edu>,
dn...@cox.net Cc: Barry Klein <bmk...@ucdavis.edu>, Bob Dynes
<robert...@ucop.edu> Subject: Re: Complaint about suspected
Academic Fraud
Excellent, Steve. Perfectly handled. Thanks. Rory
On 4/14/08 9:03 AM, "Steven Beckwith" <steven....@ucop.edu>
wrote:
Dear Ms. Napolis,
Your April 9, 2008 e-mail, copied below, to Chancellor Vanderhoef at
the University of California, Davis was forwarded to me by Executive
Vice President and Provost Hume here at the Office of the President. I
have communicated with Vice Chancellor Barry Klein about your e-mail.
In addition to serving as the Vice Chancellor for Research, Dr. Klein
is the campus Institutional Official responsible for managing
allegations of research misconduct made against employees of the Davis
campus. I have asked him to review your allegations and to take
appropriate actions based on his assessment. I expect that you will
hear shortly from the campus about this matter.
Sincerely,
Steven Beckwith
Vice President for Research and Graduate Studies
Office of the President
University of California
------Forwarded Message
From: <dn...@cox.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:20: 12 -0700
To: <Invand...@ucdavis.edu>
Cc: <rory...@ucop.edu>, <dgre...@blumecapital.com>
Subject: Complaint about suspected Academic Fraud
Ritual Court Cases Project 6977 Navajo Rd. PMB 114
San Diego, California 92119-1503 619-873-5917
April 9, 2008,
Per the instructions of the Office of the Secretary of the Regents, I
am
proceeding with a request for further administrative review of the
research
study, "Characteristics and Sources of Allegations of Ritualistic
Child
Abuse," by Dr. Gail Goodman, principal researcher at UC Davis, Phil
Shaver,
and Bette Bottoms, published in 1994.
On July 13, 2007 I sent a series of brief questions to Gail Goodman of
UC
Davis requesting feedback about the issues I raised about this study
in case
http://webmail.west.cox.netJdo/maillmessage/preview?msgId=importantDELIM1015
9/21/2008
Preview Page 2 ot:;
I had come to any wrong conclusions. Because I received no response
from Dr.
Goodman, I elevated the matter to Keith Widiman, Chairman of the
Psychology
Department, and Steve Sheflin, Dean, who also provided no response.
In December 2007 I conducted a more thorough review of this pivotal
research
study -which purported to find no "scientific" evidence of the satanic
cult abuse of children -and discovered what I believe to be many
irregularities. In lieu of a rational explanation which might explain
these
irregularities it appears that academic fraud occurred.
My background is as a Court Intervention Social worker for Child
Protective
Services with a specialization in the investigation of ritual abuse. I
established the Ritual Court Cases Project in 1994 and published my
archive
of court cases on the internet which proved the existence of SRA. This
archive now includes over 80 cases and is posted at
http://www.endritualabuse.org/ritualabusearchive.htm. I am now
returning to
my research which is, of course, lawful activity.
The problems in the research study "Characteristics and Sources of
Allegations of Ritualistic Child Abuse" in my opinion are many, the
most
outstanding of which is 1) the researchers claimed to have analyzed
the
legal findings of Social Services in the United States about the legal
outcomes of satanic ritual abuse cases and yet there was no mention of
Juvenile Court proceedings or petitions filed. Instead, the
researchers used
social worker case opening and closing codes which are not legal
findings.
2) The researchers claimed to have discovered no scientific evidence
proving
intergenerational satanic cult abuse yet their perpetratorjvictim
relationship scale measured only one generation.
The lead researcher Gail Goodman gave an interview about this study in
1994
to New York Times reporter Daniel Goleman for his article titled
"Proof
Lacking for Ritual Abuse by Satanists," in which the numbers that had
been
analyzed in this study were grossly inflated which caused Mr. Goleman
to
erroneously conclude: "In a survey of more than 11,000 psychiatric and
police workers throughout the country, conducted for the National
Center on
Child Abuse and Neglect, researchers found more than 12,000
accusations of
group cult sexual abuse based on satanic ritual, but no one that
investigators had been able to substantiate. "
The above claim is a completely false statement. The researchers did
not
receive this high of a return rate.
On January 2, 2008 I sent a 53 page critique of this study to UC Davis
Vice-Chancellor Loessberg-Zahl, requesting that he address the issues
that I
had raised. I chose to correspond under the pseudoynm "Ellen Geykus"
because
I am currently on probation in San Diego County (which should end in a
few
months) and I did not want UC Davis officials to divert from the
issues and
focus on my probationary status.
On February 7, 2008 I received a dismissive letter by Mr. Zahl who had
discovered my real name, Diana Napolis, and addressed his letter to
"Diana
Napolis." In order to discover my real name, someone would have had to
search the internet for my postal address. The only place on the
internet
which lists my postal address is at endritualabuse.org I believe this
search for my real name to be also highly irregular.
Ms. Zahl claimed that he had not discovered any researcher misconduct
and,
as I suspected would happen, Mr. Zahl informed me that he had
contacted the
campus police and advised me that there was no further reason to
contact Dr.
Goodman. My fellow colleagues and I believe that this was an attempt
to
intimidate me from asserting my right to question this research study.
http://webmail.west.cox.net!do/mail/message/preview?msgId=importantDELIM1015
9121/2008
Preview Page 3 of3
Because I am requesting that a serious investigation into academic
fraud occur, I obviously have no interest in contacting the lead
researcher.
I am requesting that further review of this study take place by UC
Davis Chancellor Mr. Larry Vanderholf, the Provost of Academic
Affairs, Rory K. Hume, and Chairperson of the Regents office.
I sent this 53 page critique as an attachment file. The questions were
meant to be directed to the researchers involved via an intermediary.
If the entire file is not received, please inform me and I will send
it through the postal mail.
Sincerely,
Diana I\lapolis
cc: Rory K. Hume Richard Blum
------End of Forwarded Message
------End of Forwarded Message

http://webmail.west.cox.net/do/mail/message/preview?msgId=importantDELIM1015
9/21/2008

Message has been deleted

Greegor

unread,
Nov 4, 2009, 11:40:45 AM11/4/09
to
What are you arguing about and why, Kent?

You didn't actually LOOK at those links did you?

Message has been deleted

krp

unread,
Nov 5, 2009, 7:57:24 AM11/5/09
to

"childadvocate" <smar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8f6ea0ce-eb41-417b...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

It is difficult if not impossible to "plant" a false memory of abuse.

�The hypothesis that false memories can easily be implanted in
psychotherapy (Lindsay & Read, 1994; Loftus 1993; Loftus & Ketcham,
1994; Ofshe and Watters, 1993, 1994; Yapko, 1994a) seriously
overstates the available data. Since no studies have been conducted on
suggested effects in psychotherapy per se, the idea of iatrogenic
suggestion of false memories remains an untested hypothesis. (Memory,
Trauma Treatment, And the Law Brown, Scheflin and Hammond (D.
Corydon), 1998, W. W. Norton 0-393-70254-5)

and no, I am not anyone DN or anyone else but CA. Our styles are
totally different.

Yes Michelle, I know. However your claims that false memories are
impossible to "plant" (your editorial choice of words) is a false claim in
and of itself. The suggestibility of children has been documented in many
studies including those of Dr. Ceci at Cornell Dr. Maggie Bruck and many
others. Your open and shut claim is bullshit. You also ass/u/me that all
memory contamination only comes from deliberate attempts to implant false
memories. Sadly this ignores that in this field there are many extremely
strident "TRUE BELIEVERS" who have no recognition that their heavy handed
methods can and do contaminate children's memories. The kernel of truth to
the contrary data on memory is that you cannot plant a "whole cloth" memory
in a child easily. What IS common is memory distortion, which is merely
falsely coloring recall of real events. Turning a non-sexual contact into a
sexual one, or fostering a misattribution of who the perpetrator is. This
comes because there are so many POORLY trained forensic interviewers and so
many with a heavy AX to grind, like you.

Greegor

unread,
Nov 7, 2009, 2:19:08 PM11/7/09
to
Diana or Michelle, Could you please explain your
PERSONAL connection to these issues?

The reason you push this recovered memories crap
is that you're a mental case who claims to have
discovered your own ""abuse"" through
""recovered memories"", right?

Did you trash your relationship with your
own parents based on the hocum from
some ""recovered memories"" kook?

So now you're too horrified to admit that
it was all a bunch of garbage, right?


I see how in late 2008 Diana tried using a fake
identity to harass a university researcher in
an attempt to get them to change their results.

Diana posted the proof of this online herself!

She was put out that the professor wrote
back to her using her REAL name.

She claimed this was unprofessional behavior on his part!

The research that Diana wanted to REVERSE
concluded that ritual satanic child abuse
does not exist.

The reason I still think you ARE Diana is that
you apparently consider yourself a childadvocate.

That's a prety close match with Diana's brain rot.

What gives YOU the right to pretend you are
advocating for children?

That's a classic position for the misfits at CPS.

Who ELSE would attempt to claim such
a bogus aire of officialdom? (""childadvocate"")

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

freedom

unread,
Nov 8, 2009, 4:29:43 PM11/8/09
to
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, krp <kr...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>"childadvocate" <smar...@aol.com> wrote in message=20

>news:8f6ea0ce-eb41-417b...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
>It is difficult if not impossible to "plant" a false memory of abuse.
>
>=93The hypothesis that false memories can easily be implanted in

>psychotherapy (Lindsay & Read, 1994; Loftus 1993; Loftus & Ketcham,
>1994; Ofshe and Watters, 1993, 1994; Yapko, 1994a) seriously
>overstates the available data. Since no studies have been conducted on
>suggested effects in psychotherapy per se, the idea of iatrogenic
>suggestion of false memories remains an untested hypothesis. (Memory,
>Trauma Treatment, And the Law Brown, Scheflin and Hammond (D.
>Corydon), 1998, W. W. Norton 0-393-70254-5)
>
>and no, I am not anyone DN or anyone else but CA. Our styles are
>totally different.
>
> Yes Michelle, I know. However your claims that false memories are=20
>impossible to "plant" (your editorial choice of words) is a false claim in=
=20
>and of itself.

No, it isn't.

It's not possible to plant a memory of something which didn't happen. This=

is merely a tactic used by abusers such as yourselves, and the convicted
abusers you associate with, to avoid accountability for your actions.

http://www.aboutkenpangborn.com
The truth about Kenneth Pangborn of KRP Consulting, 3648 Cockatoo Drive,
New Port Richey, Florida

"Carol Ann you don't KNOW shit! Youy are LYING! ...... Jesus Christ you are=

one DESPICABLE CUNT!!!! ....Bitch you are GUTTER SLIME!"
--Kenneth Pangborn, from a usenet argument with a female debator,
highlighting his typical views on women

"Rumors about ken are true, he is a bad man. That is why both my mother and=

I ran out of there as fast as we could back in the late summer of 2002. He
ruined my life and my moms life....His business is a scam, as he is in the
rest of his life. He enjoys child pornography and was investigated for that=

as well....he'll call my mom 20 times a day until she answers...[Ken's
sister-in-law Rebecca Reilly] wouldnt come over to our house anymore
because of how he would talk to her and come on to her....and he had over
180 pictures of her on his computer"
--Ken Pangborn's daughter Megan

"Blood, breath or urine?"
--question to Ken Pangborn from a Florida police officer in November 2008,
during a traffic stop from which Pangborn was subsequently charged with
DUI**

"...beating [some kids] into a bloody pulp is the ONLY thing=20
that would get through to them."=20
--Ken Pangborn on child rearing

"If you call the police, I'll knock out all of your teeth, I'll cripple
you. I may go to prison for it, but when I get out, I'll be able to walk,
but you will still be a cripple."
--Pangborn puppet Greg Hanson of alt.support.child-protective-services **,
in a verbal threat to his girlfriend

** - this conclusion was reached via applying Ken and Greg's logic

Keywords: false allegations,sexual abuse,marital rape, date rape, sexual
harassment,child abuse,domestic violence,rape allegations,false allegations=

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Extra-keywords: Julito Sainz,craig clawson,lia yisell


Greegor

unread,
Nov 9, 2009, 3:01:56 AM11/9/09
to
G > Kent, Do you know why this person uses
G > their own Rip Off of the Wiki name?
G >
G > Wiki rejected their crap!

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.child-protective-services/msg/63216e88e0fdded8

DDM > "Wiki" is the name of an open source software.
DDM >  It's not an entity, stupid. It can't "reject" anything.

So when Wiki rejected YOUR BS, Dave, who
was it that put their foot down and said no?

Was it software?

Do you think this idiocy is enhancing your
image as a script kiddy?

Aren't you underestimating just how many people
will know that you are deliberately telling lies?

Don't you think a few people out there
will KNOW that Wiki does reject attempts
to hijack Wiki for harassment or propaganda
purposes?

Certainly YOU would know that, since
you made such an attempt, it got rejected.

Diana Napolis and/or this Michelle person
have similarly been rejected in such attempts.


http://empirereport.org/reports/20091012-wikipedia-credibility

Wikipedia: credibility just a click away
Posted by Ben Pack at Oct 13, 2009 08:05 PM

Filed under: Oak Leaf, classroom journalism, SRJC, commentary
In this commentary, the Oak Leaf's Ben Pack examines the Wikipedia's
editorial process, concluding that the site does not deserve its
reputation for being a tainted resource.

Your Philosophy teacher assigns you a research paper on some German
guy named Immanuel Kant. You forget about it until the day before it’s
due. After freaking out and swearing you will never procrastinate
again, what is your first step?

If you are like most college students, you Google him and odds are,
click on the first link, his Wikipedia page. But you hesitate. The
warning words that teachers have been passed for years enter your
brain. “If you get your information from Wikipedia, you’re going to
get bad information.”

So here you sit with only a few hours left to write eight pages and a
wealth of information in front of you that you have been told is
tainted. Well I am here to tell you that Wikipedia is not only a
viable source, but also may be the most important tool for a college
student.

For those of you not in the know, Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia.
What makes it both massive and full of useful information is also what
makes it controversial. Anyone who registers for a free account can go
into most stories and edit the information.

This allows good Samaritans to go in and add their carefully
researched and thoughtful edits to articles, but also allows for the
Scourges of the Internet to go into articles and change it to say
things like, “Jay Leno died from a heroin overdose administered by
JFK.”

The website urges edits to be backed up with citation, usually done by
linking to another website. These links provide a point of entry for
anyone who needs to do research further than the info solely offered
on Wikipedia.

Many people only use these links because they are worried of what
false info they might find in the actual article, but those people
need to chill out and keep reading.

Wikipedia lives on the theory that there are more people who would be
willing to help than people willing to harm. Most people who use
Wikipedia won’t even edit it in the first place. A study by Jimmy
Wales (cofounder of Wikipedia) shows that less than 1 percent of users
perform more than half of the edits. Of the people who do edit
articles, there are very devoted editors who take their job seriously.

What casual Wikipedia users do not know, is that your “Joe Random-
Editor” does not have total editing privelages. As a matter of fact,
many “high profile” articles are locked from casual editors, such as
Barack Obama, God, and Wikipedia’s own Wikipedia page. This is so that
people cannot go into, say, Mahatma Gandhi’s page and talk about his
illegitimate love child with Marilyn Monroe.

Recently, Wikipedia has been in the news for announcing that anybody
can edit an article. That means that if you spot something that you
know is missing or wrong, you can fill out an edit on it and it will
either be confirmed or denied by a veteran editor. This will weed out
the internet crazies from the helpful people, better than your mom
sorting the darks from the lights on laundry day.

Are you feeling better about Wikipedia? I hope so, because Wikipedia
is one of the most helpful resources out there for any college student
in a jam. Immanuel Kant once spent 10 years trying to explain both how
humans acquire data and how they process data. I bet he could have got
it done in five minutes using Wikipedia.

David Daniel Moore DOB 9/26/70

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=850+Buffalo+Avenue,+Calumet+City,+Illinois&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=892_SafUOI-mM6KZ9J8N&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title

If the STREET VIEW button doesn't show up, click
on the address in bold blue on the left, then
click on STREET VIEW to see Davey's bunker!

Parcel details

http://198.173.15.21/ccao/ParcelDetails.asp?PIN=30182330330000

Map

http://198.173.15.21/ccao/MapIndex.asp?action=parcel&PIN=30182330330000

Photo

http://198.173.15.21/AssessorPics/GeoSpan/30182330330000.jpg

http://www.cookcountyassessor.com/data/searchflat/ParcelImage.asp?pin=30182330330000

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=850+Buffalo+Avenue,+Calumet+City,+Illinois&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=892_SafUOI-mM6KZ9J8N&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title

http://www.public-records-now.com/Search/SearchResults.aspx?vw=people&input=name&fn=Janet&mn=M&ln=Moore&city=Calumet%20City&state=IL

http://www.public-records-now.com/Search/SearchResults.aspx?vw=people&input=name&fn=David&mn=D&ln=Moore&city=Calumet%20City&state=IL

http://www.whitepages.com/search/ReverseAddress?street=850+buffalo+ave&where=Calumet+City%2C+IL


http://198.173.15.21/ccao/ParcelDetails.asp?PIN=30182330330000

Cook County Assessor's Office: Property Search Details
Property Index Number: 30-18-233-033-0000
View Property Picture
View Property Map
Address : 850 Buffalo Ave
City : Calumet City
Township : Thornton
Neighborhood : 61
Taxcode : 37030
Assessed Valuation
2008
First Pass Assessment 2007
Board of Review Certified
Land Assessed Value 3,025
2,521
Building Assessed Value 16,434
14,957
Total Assessed Value 19,459
17,478
Estimated Market Value 121,619
109,238
Property Characteristics
Class: 2-11
Description : Two to Six Apartments, Over 62 Years
Residence Type Two Story
Use Multi Family
Apartments Two
Exterior Construction Masonry
Full Baths 2
Half Baths 0
Basement1 Partial and Rec Room
Attic None
Central Air No
Number of Fireplaces 1
Garage Size/Type2 2.5 car detached
Building Square Footage: 1,752
Land Square Footage 6,304
Assessment Pass First Pass
Age: 27
Land Square Footage: 6,304
1 Excluded from Building Square footage, except apartment
2 Excluded from Building Square footage


http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2007/06/10/news/porter_county/docc35ea9cd21c834f1862572f4007bfc11.txt

Sunday, June 10, 2007
ARRESTS
Monday through Friday [ June 4 to June 8 ]
Battery David Moore, 36, Calumet City

David Daniel Moore court records: David D. Moore
DOB 9/26/70 850 Buffalo Avenue, Calumet City, IL
case 64D 060706FD 4989 Monday June 4th 2007
Class D Felony, Assault on somebody under 14 years old
pretrial February 8th 8:30 hearing on March 12th 1PM
The North Porter County complex is in Portage, Indiana
219 759 8219 no e-records, won't fax or e-mail records
paid $2000 bond, Attorney Robert Harper Portage, Indiana
does not have a probation officer pre-trial

-------------------------­­-------------

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.child-protective-services/msg/51dcda5be649629b

On Jan 30, 4:08 am, freedom <aboutKRP...> wrote:
G > Dave tried to say this was me.

DDM > No, I didn't. <snip>
-------------------------­­-------------

http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPosting/Superior/out/a24025_04.pdf

http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/WebDocketSheets/OtherCriteria.aspx?mode=cp

http://ujsportal.pacourts.us
Public Calendar schedule
E-Services (button)
Public Web Docket Sheets (dropdown menu)
Court of Common Pleas (dropdown button CLICK)

Common Pleas Docket sheet page

Search type: CP/MP Docket Number
Docket number (fill in these blanks) CP-48-CR-0002394-2002

CLICK the search button.

further down the page this appears:

CP-48-CR-0002394-2002 Comm. v. Hanson, Gregory 8/1/2002 12:00:00 AM
Northampton Hanson, Gregory Christian Closed H5648506 10/17/1975

If you look closely at the left end of that there is a graphic box.
Put your mouse over it and a drop down menu appears offering
Docket Sheet or
Court Summary
Select Docket Sheet


http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/docketsheets/CPReport.aspx?matterID=61271779

COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF NORTHAMPTON COUNTY
DOCKET
Docket Number: CP-48-CR-0002394-2002
Court Case
CRIMINAL DOCKET
Page 1 of 17
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
v.
Gregory Christian Hanson
CASE INFORMATION
Judge Assigned: Moran, William F. Date Filed: 08/01/2002 Initiation
Date: 08/01/2002
OTN: H5648506 Lower Court Docket No: CR-0000212-02
Initial Issuing Authority: Ralph W Litzenberger Final Issuing
Authority: Ralph W Litzenberger
Arresting Agency: Forks Twp Police Dept Arresting Officer: Affiant
Case Local Number Type(s) Case Local Number(s)
Legacy Docket Number C-48-CR-2002-2394

[ Snipped for brevity. ]

http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/docketsheets/CourtSummaryReport.aspx?matterID=61271779

Northampton County Court of Common Pleas
Court Summary
Hanson, Gregory Christian
Frackville, PA 179312699
Aliases:
Hanson, Gregory
Hanson, Gregory C.
DOB:10/17/1975
Race:Caucasian
Hair:
Eyes:
Sex:Male
Closed
Northampton
CP-48-CR-0001279-1999
Arrest Dt: 05/03/1999

[ Snipped for brevity. ]


Keywords:

850 Buffalo Avenue, Calumet City, Illinois 60409,
INTERNET STALKER CON ARTIST David Daniel Moore,
pathological liar David Daniel Moore,
internet psychopath David Daniel Moore,
hate site, sociopath stalker,pervert,creep
pathological liar David Daniel Moore
abusive real estate agents,deception,hacker,
sexual blackmail David Daniel Moore coward,
tara moreland, Linda Boss, janet m moore,
dawn moore, tara moreland, alias dustin calloway,
alias david miller, alias david boss,
alias jeff johnson, criminal, computer hacker,
criminal hacker, internet stalkers, stalker,
internet harassment, usenet threats
usenet forgery David Daniel Moore, forger,
new zealand hate site, internet libel
website of lies, chicagoland pansies
malicious use of employers computers,
formerly of Sara Lee Corporation, child abuser,
sara lee corporation, never employ this temp,
internet psychopaths, internet addiction,
internet stalking, woman hater, blackmailer,
sexual harassment, stalker, sexual blackmail,
David Daniel Moore bbs blackmail,usmc 29 palms,
discharge for the good of the service,
linda boss, formerly of Sara Lee Corporation,
short term contract programmer lotus,
David Moore lives in his mommy's basement,
850 Buffalo Avenue, Calumet City, Illinois 60409,
temp worker, lotus consultant, temp worker,
short term contracts,IP address trickery,
casino software consultant moral terpitude,
computer identity forgery, mommys basement,
anonymous remailer stalkers, office disruption,
anonymous remailer abusers, coalition forces,
David Daniel Moore basement dweller,
off shore website avid Daniel Moore,
new zealand, malaysia website,
David Daniel Moore employer computer abuse,
obsessive compulsive disorder

Message has been deleted

Dan Sullivan

unread,
Nov 9, 2009, 8:34:04 AM11/9/09
to
On Nov 9, 5:09 am, Kent Wills <compu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 00:01:56 -0800 (PST), Greegor <greego...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >G > Kent, Do you know why this person uses
> >G > their own Rip Off of the Wiki name?
> >G >
> >G > Wiki rejected their crap!
>
>      Interesting.  You quote something directed at me that you posted
> to a group you KNOW I don't read.
>      Why do you post questions to me in a group you know I don't read?
> Do you think you're being clever?  Do you think you'll be able to
> claim you've won something because I didn't respond?
>
>
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.child-protective-services/...

>
> >DDM > "Wiki" is the name of an open source software.
> >DDM >  It's not an entity, stupid.  It can't "reject" anything.
>
> >So when Wiki rejected YOUR BS, Dave, who
> >was it that put their foot down and said no?
>
>     Prove David submitted it, a win for you, or admit your use and
> abuse of illegal drugs has forced you to lie once again, another loss
> for you.

>
>
>
> >Was it software?
>
> >Do you think this idiocy is enhancing your
> >image as a script kiddy?
>
>     Please prove David partakes in any aspect of the hacker scene, a
> win for you, or admit your use and abuse of illegal drugs has force
> you to lie once again, another loss for you.

>
>
>
> >Aren't you underestimating just how many people
> >will know that you are deliberately telling lies?
>
>      Where is the lie?

>
>
>
> >Don't you think a few people out there
> >will KNOW that Wiki does reject attempts
> >to hijack Wiki for harassment or propaganda
> >purposes?
>
>      I think this is well known.
>      What does it have to do with David?

>
>
>
> >Certainly YOU would know that, since
> >you made such an attempt, it got rejected.
>
>      Prove he made such an attempt, unless you're lying.

>
>
>
> >Diana Napolis and/or this Michelle person
> >have similarly been rejected in such attempts.
>
>      And this means what, exactly?
>      That you so fear the truth that you're bringing CA into a
> discussion that has nothing to do with her?
>      And why are you still using and abusing illegal drugs?  You've
> already admitted, freely, that it's your use and abuse of illegal
> drugs that forces you to stalk the members of alt.friends.  Since
> you're still stalking (by the very definition you posted to accuse
> others of stalking you) the members, you must still be using and
> abusing illegal drugs.
>      Get the help you've once again PROVED you need, Greg.  I'm being
> very serious.  I don't mean it as the insult it may appear to be.
>
> [snip of Greg's latest PROOF that he believes he is exempt from any
> and all laws, copyright law in this case, and his posting of
> information he KNOWS isn't about the David Moore we know]
>
> Title: ST VS GREGORY HANSON
>       (DOB 05/22/1959)
> CRIMINAL COMPLAINT   04/10/1996
>      Comments: CT 1 OWI 1ST
> OTHER CITATION   04/10/1996
>      Comments: CT 2 SPEED
> Disposition Status
>      GUILTY PLEA/DEFAULT
>
> "That's the chick, but not the pic, zipperhead!"
>     Greg Hanson proving his bigotry towards Asians, or proving he's so
> stupid he thinks I'm Asian.
> MID:<c6bac3f6-7a0e-4bf8-8ddd-d77bccfc6...@p49g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>http://groups.google.com/group/misc.legal/msg/395db830731df54ahttp://www.rsdb.org/search?q=zipperhead
>
> Me:  "I suspect your stalking is due to the use and abuse of illegal
> drugs, Greg.  Is the reason for your stalking the members of
> alt.friends due to the use and abuse of illegal drugs?
>
> Gregory Scott Hanson, wife beater and child abuser:  "Of course."
>
> "My family's case is for Neglect, but we are treated
> in virtually every regard as child abusers, marked on
> the Child Abuse registry, for example."
>    -- Greg Scott Hanson telling Usenet he's a FOUNDED child abuser.
> Message-ID: <35120b16.0401111639.6825f...@posting.google.com>
>
> " ... But there ought to be conferences and studies on how to curb
> minority overpopulation, repatriate minorities abroad, imprison more
> minorities, increase use of the death penalty and divest minorities of
> the power they have usurped over us in recent years. That would
> address the most pressing problems of our day. ... "
>                              April 2000, Gregory Hansonhttp://www.nationalist.org/ATW/2000/040101.html#Hanson
>
> Path:
> news.datemas.de!newsfeed.datemas.de!goblin1!goblin.stu.neva.ru!postnews.google.com!y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> From: Greegor <greego...@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups:
> misc.kids,alt.support.foster-parents,uk.people.parents,alt.support.child-protective-services
>
> With the Christmas season upon us again, my stepdaughter was launching
> into her usual tirade of "I need this" (Nintendo 64 games, Pokemon,
> videos, Rhianna CD, etc.)  After enduring a trip through Kmart, I
> was at my wits end.  I took the kid home and filled the bathtub with
> water.  Then I dunked the brat's head under the water and counted out
> a full minute, with her flailing her arms.  I brought her up and she
> gasped for air.  When she'd caught her breath, I asked her,  "When you
> were under that water, did you 'need' Nintendo?  Pokemon?  Rhianna?"
> She shook her head.  "What were you thinking about?" I
> prodded.  She told me "I was thinking that I needed air."
>
> "Now you know the difference between 'need' and 'want'" I exclaimed
> triumphantly.
>
> --a true story

Please don't cross posts any messages to alt.support.child-protective-
services that don't have anything to do with child abuse.

freedom

unread,
Nov 9, 2009, 3:42:46 PM11/9/09
to
On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Greegor <gree...@gmail.com> wrote:
>G > Kent, Do you know why this person uses
>G > their own Rip Off of the Wiki name?
>G >
>G > Wiki rejected their crap!
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.child-protective-services/msg/6=

>3216e88e0fdded8
>
>DDM > "Wiki" is the name of an open source software.

>DDM > =A0It's not an entity, stupid. It can't "reject" anything.


>
>So when Wiki rejected YOUR BS, Dave,

Nobody has "rejected" anything of mine. Least of all, not an inanimate
piece of open source software.

> who
>was it that put their foot down and said no?
>
>Was it software?
>
>Do you think this idiocy is enhancing your
>image as a script kiddy?

I don't have such an image, despite the fact that Ken has given you a new
phrase to try to implement.

>
>Aren't you underestimating just how many people
>will know that you are deliberately telling lies?

As far as I can tell, that would be "none." Ken's been proved a liar so
many times it's not even funny...and you're little more than a sockpuppet
who reposts what he tells you to.

>
>Don't you think a few people out there
>will KNOW that Wiki does reject attempts
>to hijack Wiki for harassment or propaganda
>purposes?

Not anybody with any form of intelligence. They'd be likely to comprehend
that "Wiki" is a piece of software technology, and can't "reject" anything
or make any decisions whatsoever.

Your statement is akin to saying that a "letter to the editor" didn't get
published because "word processor technology" rejected it.


>
>Certainly YOU would know that, since
>you made such an attempt, it got rejected.

I've made no form of "attempt," and really have no idea what you're
babbling out. Can you ask Ken to clarify for you before you post again?
Or, better yet, just have him post it from his Roadrunner account rather
than ordering you to post it? We all know it's coming from him anyway.

http://www.aboutkenpangborn.com
The truth about Kenneth Pangborn of KRP Consulting, 3648 Cockatoo Drive,
New Port Richey, Florida

"If you call the police, I'll knock out all of your teeth, I'll cripple

krp

unread,
Nov 9, 2009, 8:42:31 PM11/9/09
to
WEENIE DAVEY MOORE
"freedom" <about...@aboutISkenApangbornFRAUD.com> wrote in message
news:09998540e8da8c6e...@msgid.frell.theremailer.net...


>>It is difficult if not impossible to "plant" a false memory of abuse.

>>=93The hypothesis that false memories can easily be implanted in
>>psychotherapy (Lindsay & Read, 1994; Loftus 1993; Loftus & Ketcham,
>>1994; Ofshe and Watters, 1993, 1994; Yapko, 1994a) seriously
>>overstates the available data. Since no studies have been conducted on
>>suggested effects in psychotherapy per se, the idea of iatrogenic
>>suggestion of false memories remains an untested hypothesis. (Memory,
>>Trauma Treatment, And the Law Brown, Scheflin and Hammond (D.
>>Corydon), 1998, W. W. Norton 0-393-70254-5)

>>and no, I am not anyone DN or anyone else but CA. Our styles are
>>totally different.

>> Yes Michelle, I know. However your claims that false memories are=20
>>impossible to "plant" (your editorial choice of words) is a false claim
>>in=

> =20and of itself.

> No, it isn't. It's not possible to plant a memory of something which
> didn't happen. This=

Is that your "EXPERT" opinion Moore? So do you claim to VASTLY MORE
knowledge than Dr. Stephen Ceci of Cornell who documents that children ARE
suggestible to memory contamination? DAVID DIPSHIT MOORE knows MORE? You
argue solely for the sake of argument. When are you going to LEARN how to
post properly without all the ASCII bullshit in your text? You know MORE
than Dr. Loftus? You probably THINK you do. Try reading Dr. Ceci's book;
"Jeopardy in the Courtroom" and see where YOU can prove him wrong with your
VAST learning. <snicker>

Greegor

unread,
Nov 9, 2009, 9:36:40 PM11/9/09
to

childadvocate

unread,
Nov 9, 2009, 10:43:17 PM11/9/09
to
There is no evidence that a traumatic memory of abuse can be
"planted." None.
http://childabusewiki.org/index.php?title=False_Memory_Syndrome

Planting False Childhood Memories in Children: The Role of Event
Plausibility – Kathy Pezdek; Danelle Hodge – Child Development, Vol.
70, No. 4. (Jul. – Aug., 1999), pp. 887-895. Stable URL:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1132249 This experiment tested and supported
the hypothesis that events will be suggestively planted in children’s
memory to the degree that the suggested event is plausible and script-
relevant knowledge exists in memory. Nineteen 5- to 7-year-old
children and 20 9- to 12-year-old children were read descriptions of
two true events and two false events, reported to have occurred when
they were 4 years old. One false event described the child lost in a
mall while shopping (the plausible false event); the other false event
described the child receiving a rectal enema (the implausible false
event). The majority of the 39 children (54%) did not remember either
false event. However, whereas 14 children recalled the plausible but
not the implausible false event, only one child recalled the
implausible but not the plausible false event; this difference was
statistically significant. Three additional children (all in the
younger age group) recalled both false events. Although this pattern
of results was consistent for both age groups, the differences were
significant for the younger children only. A framework is outlined
specifying the cognitive processes underlying suggestively planting
false events in memory.

"The hypothesis that false memories can easily be implanted in
psychotherapy (Lindsay & Read, 1994; Loftus 1993; Loftus & Ketcham,
1994; Ofshe and Watters, 1993, 1994; Yapko, 1994a) seriously
overstates the available data. Since no studies have been conducted on
suggested effects in psychotherapy per se, the idea of iatrogenic
suggestion of false memories remains an untested hypothesis. (Memory,
Trauma Treatment, And the Law Brown, Scheflin and Hammond (D.
Corydon), 1998, W. W. Norton 0-393-70254-5)

http://childabusewiki.org/index.php?title=False_Memory_Syndrome
The term False Memory Syndrome was created in 1992 by the False Memory
Syndrome Foundation (FMSF)[1]. It has been called "a pseudoscientific
syndrome that was developed to defend against claims of child
abuse."[1] The FMSF was created by parents who claimed to be falsely
accused of child sexual abuse.[1] The False Memory Syndrome was
described as "a widespread social phenomenon where misguided
therapists cause patients to invent memories of sexual abuse."[1]
Research has shown that most delayed memories of childhood abuse are
true[2]. In general, it has been shown that false allegations of
childhood sexual abuse are rare, with some studies showing rates as
low as one percent[3][4] and some studies showing slightly higher rates
[3]. It has been found that children tend to understate rather than
overstate the extent of any abuse experienced[3]. It has been stated
that misinformation on the topic of child sexual abuse is widespread
and that the media have contributed to this problem by reporting
favorably on unproven and controversial claims like the False Memory
Syndrome[5].

> No, it isn't.
>
> It's not possible to plant a memory of something which didn't happen.  This

childadvocate

unread,
Nov 9, 2009, 10:54:37 PM11/9/09
to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer
WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY
"Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been
reviewed by people with the expertise required to provide you with
complete, accurate or reliable information."

"However, Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information
found here. The content of any given article may recently have been
changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not
correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields."

"Wikipedia is not uniformly peer reviewed; while readers may correct
errors or engage in casual peer review, they have no legal duty to do
so and thus all information read here is without any implied warranty
of fitness for any purpose or use whatsoever."

--
Basic points about wikipedia

1) There is no guarantee its information is correct.

2) Its editors are anonymous and may be biased about the topic they
are writing about and may be unqualified to write encyclopedia
articles.

3) There is inconsistent or no fact checking, depending on the
article.

4) The rules of wikipedia at times are used to control article content
and delete other content from strong sources.

5) Experts working on certain topics in wikipedia may be derided and
discouraged from contributing to certain articles.

Therefore, one is probably better off reading a real encyclopedia or
journal article, due to the high potential for reading inaccurate
information and a slanted or biased article.
--

There have been problems with wikipedia in the past that have found it
to be an unreliable source of information and editor bias can help
shape articles to the views of the more powerful editors there.

These problems include:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6947532.stm
Wikipedia 'shows CIA page edits'
An online tool that claims to reveal the identity of organisations
that edit Wikipedia pages has revealed that the CIA was involved in
editing entries.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/22/wikipedia_vandalism_crackdown/
Jimbo Wales ends death by Wikipedia
Kennedy murder shames online cult
By Cade Metz in San Francisco
On Tuesday afternoon, following a Washington luncheon celebrating the
inauguration of President Barack Obama, longtime US Senators Ted
Kennedy and Robert Byrd kicked the proverbial bucket. At least, that's
what happened in Wikiland. In our world, they're still among the
living.

Wikipedia black helicopters circle Utah's Traverse Mountain
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/
Wikipedia is not a democracy. But the totalitarian attitudes of the
site's ruling clique go much further than Jimbo cares to acknowledge.
In early September, the Wikipedia inner circle banned edits from 1,000
homes and one massive online retailer in an attempt to suppress the
voice of one man.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomis
Bomis is a dot-com company founded in 1996. Its primary business is
the sale of advertising on the Bomis.com search portal. It was founded
by Jimmy Wales and Tim Shell, and provided support for the free
encyclopedia projects Nupedia and Wikipedia....
Bomis ran a website called Bomis Premium at premium.bomis.com until
2005, offering customers access to premium, X-rated[3] pornographic
content.

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/12/69880
Wales has also repeatedly revised the description of a search site he
founded called Bomis, which included a section with adult photos
called "Bomis Babes."

The word on Wikipedia: Trust but verify
Popular online encyclopedia, plagued by errors, troubles educators
By Lisa Daniels and Alex Johnson
msnbc.com and NBC News
March. 29, 2007
Lisa Daniels
Correspondent
MIDDLEBURY, Vt. - Neil Waters had never seen anything quite like it.
“I was looking at a stack of final examinations,” said Waters, a
professor of Japanese studies at Middlebury College in Vermont, “and I
found several instances of misinformation that [were] identical from
one student to another.” All of those students in Waters’ Japanese
history class late last year had been steered wrong by the same source
— Wikipedia, the sprawling online encyclopedia that has revolutionized
how ordinary people find information....
For Middlebury College’s history department, the answer is plain: Not
totally, and not always. The department banned students from using it
as a source in their papers, although they are allowed to consult it
for background material, a move that was quickly mimicked by
professors at other schools, including UCLA and the University of
Pennsylvania....
Just this year, a Wikipedia entry falsely proclaimed that the comedian
Sinbad was dead. (“Saturday, I rose from the dead,” he said.) Golfer
Fuzzy Zoeller sued last month to find out who anonymously posted,
falsely, that he abused drugs. And a prolific and highly trusted
contributor believed to be a professor was unmasked as a 24-year-old
college dropout.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17740041/

10 Questions: Jimmy Wales 3/21/07
How can I persuade my teachers to allow me to use Wikipedia as a
legitimate research source?—Kaitlyn Grigsby, Medina, Ohio
I would agree with your teachers that that isn't the right way to use
Wikipedia. The site is a wonderful starting point for research. But
it's only a starting point because there's always a chance that
there's something wrong, and you should check your sources if you are
writing a paper.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1601491,00.html


One great source -- if you can trust it
By Hiawatha Bray, Globe Staff | July 12, 2004
So of course Wikipedia is popular. Maybe too popular. For it lacks one
vital feature of the traditional encyclopedia: accountability. Old-
school reference books hire expert scholars to write their articles,
and employ skilled editors to check and double-check their work.
Wikipedia's articles are written by anyone who fancies himself an
expert....

Ross admits to reading and enjoying Wikipedia, and has even gotten
ideas there for future Britannica articles. But the absence of
traditional editorial controls makes Wikipedia unsuited to serious
research. "How do they know it's accurate?" Ross asks. "People can put
down anything."
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2004/07/12/one_great_source____if_you_can_trust_it/

See Who's Editing Wikipedia - Diebold, the CIA, a Campaign By John
Borland 08.14.07
Wikipedia Scanner -- the brainchild of Cal Tech computation and neural-
systems graduate student Virgil Griffith -- offers users a searchable
database that ties millions of anonymous Wikipedia edits to
organizations where those edits apparently originated, by cross-
referencing the edits with data on who owns the associated block of
internet IP addresses....
The online encyclopedia allows anyone to make edits, but keeps
detailed logs of all these changes. Users who are logged in are
tracked only by their user name, but anonymous changes leave a public
record of their IP address....
Griffith thus downloaded the entire encyclopedia, isolating the XML-
based records of anonymous changes and IP addresses. He then
correlated those IP addresses with public net-address lookup services
such as ARIN, as well as private domain-name data provided by
IP2Location.com.
The result: A database of 34.4 million edits, performed by 2.6 million
organizations or individuals ranging from the CIA to Microsoft to
Congressional offices, now linked to the edits they or someone at
their organization's net address has made.
Some of this appears to be transparently self-interested, either
adding positive, press release-like material to entries, or deleting
whole swaths of critical material.
http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/08/wiki_tracker

Wikipedia and Beyond
Jimmy Wales' sprawling vision
Katherine Mangu-Ward | June 2007 Print Edition
"Wales moved to Chicago and became a futures and options trader. After
six years of betting on interest rates and currency fluctuations, he
made enough money to pay the mortgage for the rest of his life. In
1998 he moved to San Diego and started a Web portal, Bomis, which
featured, among other things, a "guy-oriented search engine" and
pictures of scantily clad women. The en déshabillé ladies have since
caused trouble for Wales, who regularly fields questions about his
former life as a "porn king." In a typically blunt move, Wales often
responds to criticism of his Bomis days by sending reporters links to
Yahoo's midget porn category page. If he was a porn king, he suggests,
so is the head of the biggest Web portal in the world.
Bomis didn't make it big-it was no Yahoo-but in March 2000 the site
hosted Nupedia, Wales' first attempt to build a free online
encyclopedia. Wales hired Larry Sanger, at the time a doctoral
candidate in philosophy at Ohio State, to edit encyclopedia articles
submitted voluntarily by scholars, and to manage a multistage peer
review process."
"Wikipedia does fail sometimes. The most famous controversy over its
accuracy boiled over when John Seigenthaler Sr., a former assistant to
Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, wrote about his own Wikipedia
entry in a November 2005 USA Today op-ed. The entry on Seigenthaler
included a claim that he had been involved in both Kennedy
assassinations. "We live in a universe of new media," wrote
Seigenthaler, "with phenomenal opportunities for worldwide
communications and research-but populated by volunteer vandals with
poison-pen intellects." The false claim had been added to the entry as
a prank in May 2005. When Seigenthaler contacted Wikipedia about the
error in October, Wales personally took the unusual step of removing
the false allegations from the editing history on the page, wiping out
the publicly accessible records of the error.
"Wikipedia's other major scandal hasn't been quite as easy for Wales
to laugh off, because he was the culprit. In 2005 he was caught with
his hand on the edit button, taking advantage of Wikipedia's open
editing policy to remove Larry Sanger from the encyclopedia's official
history of itself. There has been an ongoing controversy about Wales'
attempts to edit his own Wikipedia entry, which is permitted but
considered extremely bad form. After a round of negative publicity
when the edits were discovered, Wales stopped editing his own profile.
But in the site's discussion pages, using the handle "Jimbo Wales," he
can be found trying to persuade others to make changes on this and
other topics."
http://www.reason.com/news/show/119689.html


http://nowherenorth.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/accuracy-wikipedia-encyclopedias/
Accuracy of Wikipedia compared to other encyclopedias
Okay, this study was published in early 2008 but I didn’t discovered
it until recently. “Comparison of Wikipedia and other encyclopedias
for accuracy, breadth, and depth in historical articles” by Lycy
Holman Rector published in Reference Services Review vol. 36, häfte 1,
2008, s. 7-22.
Nine Wikipedia articles, only historical entries, were compared
against articles in Encyclopaedia Britannica, The Dictionary of
American History and American National Biography Online to compare
Wikipedia’s accuracy. and the conclusions as expressed by Holman
Rector:
“Wikipedia’s accuracy rate was 80 percent compared with 95-96 percent
accuracy within the other sources. This study does support the claim
that Wikipedia is less reliable than other reference resources”.

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/viewContentItem.do;jsessionid=B5971624ED12D3D4BFBFFC762150B834?contentType=Article&contentId=1674221
Emerald Article Request - Comparison of ITWikipedia-IT and other
encyclopedias for accuracy, breadth, and depth in historical
articles.htm
Findings – The study did reveal inaccuracies in eight of the nine
entries and exposed major flaws in at least two of the nine Wikipedia
articles. Overall, Wikipedia's accuracy rate was 80 percent compared
with 95-96 percent accuracy within the other sources. This study does
support the claim that Wikipedia is less reliable than other reference
resources. Furthermore, the research found at least five unattributed
direct quotations and verbatim text from other sources with no
citations.

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/viewPDF.jsp?contentType=Article&Filename=html/Output/Published/EmeraldFullTextArticle/Pdf/2400360102.pdf
Comparison of Wikipedia
and other encyclopedias for
accuracy, breadth, and depth in
historical articles
Lucy Holman Rector
Library & Instructional Resources, Harford Community
Most reference works rely on scholars to write and edit their articles
and essays.
Wikipedia, however, allows anyone to contribute and edit encyclopedia
entries. In fact,
Wikipedia welcomes amateur contributors and notes that no formal
training is required
for posting an entry (Wikipedia, 2007). Unlike other reference
sources, individual
Wikipedia entries do not list authors’ full or even real names, and
authors do not post
their credentials in terms of expertise in the field of their
contributions. Without full
disclosure of authorship, readers cannot verify the expertise of the
author or even
conduct further research on his/her credentials. Furthermore, while
Wikipedia
encourages authors to cite references, it realizes that many articles
do not include
sources (Wikipedia, 2007). The encyclopedia readily admits that there
are certainly
opportunities for vandalism, and the lack of an editorial board or
governing process
may result in under-coverage of certain topics.

Wikipedia's Accountability Problem
By Daniel Brandt
There is a problem with the structure of Wikipedia. The basic problem
is that no one, neither the Trustees of Wikimedia Foundation, nor the
volunteers who are connected with Wikipedia, consider themselves
responsible for the content. If you don’t believe me, then carefully
read Wikipedia’s disclaimer.
At the same time that no one claims responsibility, there are two
unique characteristics of Wikipedia that can be very damaging to a
person, corporation, or group. The first is that anyone can edit an
article, and there is no guarantee that any article you read has not
been edited maliciously, and remains uncorrected in that state, at the
precise time that you access that article.
The second unique characteristic is that Wikipedia articles, and in
some cases even the free-for-all “talk” discussions behind the
articles, rank very highly in the major search engines. This means
that Wikipedia’s potential for inflicting damage is amplified by
several orders of magnitude.
http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/brandt01212006/


http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/
While Wikipedia itself does not run ads, they are the most-scraped
site on the web. Scrapers need content — any content will do — in
order to carry ads from Google and other advertisers. This entire
effect is turning Wikipedia into a generator of spam. It is primarily
Google's fault, since Wikipedia might find it difficult to address the
issue of scraping even if they wanted to. Google doesn't care; their
ad money comes right off the top.

For example, it did not take long, using the Google and Yahoo engines,
to find 52 different domains that scraped Wikipedia's page on rock
band Lynyrd Skynyrd. Interestingly, Google listed more than four times
the number of duplicate scrapes than Yahoo. This could be related to
the fact that 83 percent of these scraped pages carry ads — almost
always ads from Google. Some of these scrapes are template-generated
across different domains, suggesting that they are created by
programs. At that point zombie PCs might be dispatched to click on the
ads.

Jimmy Wales, the man behind Wikipedia....After he made a fortune in
futures trading, he started up Bomis.com in the mid-1990s. Bomis was
one of the first sites to scrape the ad-free Open Directory Project,
and turn it into a huge mass of paid
links and ads, mixed together with porn.
Another problem is that most of the administrators at Wikipedia prefer
to exercise their police functions anonymously. The process itself is
open, but the identities of the administrators are usually cloaked
behind a username and a Gmail address. (Gmail does not show an
originating IP address in the email headers, which means that you
cannot geolocate the originator, or even know whether one
administrator is really a different person than another
administrator.) If an admin has a political or personal agenda, he can
do a fair amount of damage with the special editing tools available to
him. The victim may not even find out that this is happening until
it's too late. From Wikipedia, the material is spread like a virus by
search engines and other scrapers, and the damage is amplified by
orders of magnitude. There is no recourse for the victim, and no one
can be held accountable. Once it's all over the web, no one has the
power to put it back into the bottle.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/technology/internet/25wikipedia.html
Ed H. Chi of the Palo Alto Research Center in California, which
specializes in research for commercial endeavors, recently completed a
study of the millions of changes made to Wikipedia in a month. He
concluded that the site’s growth (whether in new articles, new edits
or new contributors) hit a plateau in 2007-8.

For some active Wikipedia editors, this was an expected development —
after so many articles, naturally there are fewer topics to uncover,
and those new topics are not necessarily of general interest.

But Mr. Chi also found that the changes made by more experienced
editors were more likely to stay up on the site, whereas one-time
editors had a much higher chance of having their edits reversed. He
concluded that there was “growing resistance from the Wikipedia
community to new content.”....

Under the current system, it is not difficult to insert false
information into a Wikipedia entry, at least for a short time. In
March, for example, a 22-year-old Irish student planted a false
quotation attributed to the French composer Maurice Jarre shortly
after Mr. Jarre’s death. It was promptly included in obituaries about
Mr. Jarre in several newspapers, including The Guardian and The
Independent in Britain. And on Jan. 20, vandals changed the entries
for two ailing senators, Edward M. Kennedy and Robert C. Byrd, to
report falsely that they had died.

Flagged revisions, advocates say, could offer one more chance to catch
such hoaxes and improve the overall accuracy of Wikipedia’s entries.

Foundation officials intend to put the system into effect first with
articles about living people because those pieces are ripe for
vandalism and because malicious information within them can be
devastating to those individuals....

Mr. Wales began pushing for the policy after the Kennedy and Byrd
hoaxes, but discussions about a review system date back to one of the
darkest episodes in Wikipedia’s history, known as the Seigenthaler
incident.

In 2005, the prominent author and journalist John Seigenthaler Sr.
discovered that Wikipedia’s biographical article connected him to the
assassinations of John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy, a
particularly scurrilous thing to report because he was personally
close to the Kennedy family.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/business/media/11web.html
A Little Sleuthing Unmasks Writer of Wikipedia Prank

By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE
Published: December 11, 2005
It started as a joke and ended up as a shot heard round the Internet,
with the joker losing his job and Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia,
suffering a blow to its credibility.

Snared in the Web of a Wikipedia Liar A man in Nashville has admitted
that, in trying to shock a colleague with a joke, he put false
information into a Wikipedia entry about John Seigenthaler Sr., a
former editor of The Tennessean in Nashville.

Brian Chase, 38, who until Friday was an operations manager at a small
delivery company, told Mr. Seigenthaler on Friday that he had written
the material suggesting that Mr. Seigenthaler had been involved in the
assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy. Wikipedia, a nonprofit
venture that is the world's biggest encyclopedia, is written and
edited by thousands of volunteers.

http://tech.msn.com/products/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=21535424&gt1=40000
The 15 Biggest Wikipedia Blunders
By JR Raphael, PC World
Wikipedia is about to start restricting the editing of some of its
articles. Judging by these past blunders, the change may not be a bad
thing.

Wikipedia has just announced plans to restrict the editing of some of
its articles. Under the new system, any changes made to pages of still-
living people will have to be approved by an "experienced volunteer"
before going online.

The change marks a significant shift in the philosophy of the openly
edited, user-controlled encyclopedia -- and that may not be a bad
thing. Here are 15 of the biggest Wikipedia blunders the new editing
system might have prevented. These false facts, according to widely
published accounts, all appeared on the Wikipedia site at some point.

1. Robbie Williams eats domestic pets in pubs for money.
To be fair, we can't disprove this statement, which popped up on the
singer's Wikipedia page in 2006. But we'll give him the benefit of the
doubt.

2. David Beckham was a Chinese goalkeeper in the 18th century.
And you thought scoring Posh Spice was impressive.

3. Paul Reiser is dead.
If you fell for this 2008 Wikipedia hoax, well -- let's just say I'm
not so mad about you.

4. Sinbad is dead.
Couldn't tell ya what he's actually doing these days, but contrary to
a 2007 Wikipedia claim, Sinbad is still around.

5. Sergey Brin is sexy, dating Jimmy Wales and dead.
The Google god's Wikipedia page has seen more changes than his company
has seen betas. Remarks on Sergey Brin's bio have claimed he's gay and
dating Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales; he's dead, having ended his life
in Moscow; and he's "sexy."
(I'll leave the judgment on the last one up to you.)

6. Tony Blair worships Hitler.
The former British prime minister was a regular target for Wikipedia
tampering. That's what we read on Wikipedia, anyway.

7. The Duchess of Cornwall's Christian name is Cow-miller.
Anyone else suddenly have a hankering for a hamburger?

8. The University of Cincinnati's former president is a whore.
Former University of Cincinnati President Nancy Zimpher was listed as
a "prostitute" and a "witch" on her Wikipedia page. Good thing it
wasn't true, as that would make for one dangerous combination.

9. Robert Byrd is dead.
Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., was pronounced dead by Wikipedia in
January. The senator was resurrected by a Wikipedia correction a short
time later.

10. Ted Kennedy died in January.
Months before the news that Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., had passed
away, his Wikipedia page reported his death. The entry said Kennedy
had died after his seizure at January's presidential inauguration.

11. John Seigenthaler helped assassinate John and Robert Kennedy.
The retired journalist wrote a full editorial about his Wikipedia
ordeal, in which he was accused of being somehow involved in the
assassinations of both John and Robert Kennedy. The errant info,
Seigenthaler says, was on the site for four and a half months.

12. A yacht killed British TV presenter Vernon Kay.
That's a rough way to go. Especially when it never happened.

13. Conan O'Brien assaults sea turtles while canoeing.
Stephen Colbert was to blame for this hoax. I can't decide which is
more unbelievable: that Conan assaulted a sea turtle, or that he went
canoeing.

14. British TV gardener Alan Titchmarsh published a new version of the
Kama Sutra.

He did, however, slap stickers on a bikini model for ratings.
15. Sienna Miller has modeled nude.
I don't care if it's not true -- I'm still going to require proof on
this one.

krp

unread,
Nov 10, 2009, 5:48:53 AM11/10/09
to

"childadvocate" <smar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e6f26b7d-8e13-4989...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

There is no evidence that a traumatic memory of abuse can be
"planted." None.
http://childabusewiki.org/index.php?title=False_Memory_Syndrome

Planting False Childhood Memories in Children: The Role of Event

Plausibility � Kathy Pezdek; Danelle Hodge � Child Development, Vol.
70, No. 4. (Jul. � Aug., 1999), pp. 887-895. Stable URL:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1132249

What I find INTERESTING is that NOWHERE do we see the credentials for
Ms. Pezdek or Ms. Hodge within the article. HMMMMM, verrrrrry
interessssting! (Old line from Laugh-in) And then FUNNY thing they slip this
little tidbit into the article that Michelle is wuoting as her conslusive
proof....

"Although it is clear that some false events can be suggestively planted in
memory, it is not clear what factors affect the probbability of suggestively
planting false memories."


GAME - SET - MATCH!

"The hypothesis that false memories can easily be implanted in
psychotherapy (Lindsay & Read, 1994; Loftus 1993; Loftus & Ketcham,
1994; Ofshe and Watters, 1993, 1994; Yapko, 1994a) seriously
overstates the available data.

Elizabeth Loftus has been considerd the LEADING expert in the world on
the subject of human memory. Ms. Pezdek? Hodge? I am a bit amused as to WHY
nowhere in the article are we provided some clue as to who they are? Then
too I am curious as hell, Michelle, as to WHY you deliberately limited your
souce to only the first page of the article and didn't provide us with the
whole article?

Society

unread,
Nov 10, 2009, 7:49:27 AM11/10/09
to

"krp" <kr...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4af94516$0$4873$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>
>
> Michelle as "childadvocate" <smar...@aol.com> wrote...

> >
> >
> > There is no evidence that a traumatic memory of abuse
> > can be "planted." None.
> > http://childabusewiki.org/index.php?title=False_Memory_Syndrome
> >
> > Planting False Childhood Memories in Children: The Role of Event
> > Plausibility � Kathy Pezdek; Danelle Hodge �
> > Child Development, Vol. 70, No. 4. (Jul. � Aug., 1999),

> > pp. 887-895. Stable URL:
> > http://www.jstor.org/pss/1132249
>
> What I find INTERESTING is that NOWHERE do we see
> the credentials for Ms. Pezdek or Ms. Hodge within the article.
> HMMMMM, verrrrrry interessssting! (Old line from Laugh-in)

In this case, your quibble turns out to be silly, Ken. Among
referreed journals like _Child Development_, it's common
to find the affiliations of the authors at the end of the article,
not on the first page. Still, despite that, you did bust Michelle
for peddling more of her Believe The Children bunk.

> And then FUNNY thing they slip this little tidbit
> into the article that Michelle is wuoting as her conslusive proof....
>
> "Although it is clear that some false events can be
> suggestively planted in memory, it is not clear
> what factors affect the probbability of suggestively planting false
> memories."
>
> GAME - SET - MATCH!

Yup. And look at this part that Michelle quoted (but
appears to have been something you snipped, Ken):

The majority of the 39 children (54%) did not remember
either false event.

Which means that 46% of the children _did_ remember a false
event, i.e. a false memory was implanted in them. Here's
some even more results from the very study Michelle cited:

...one child recalled the implausible but not the plausible


false event; this difference was statistically significant.
Three additional children (all in the younger age group)
recalled both false events.

The "implausible event" was "a rectal enema," something
one could consider to be a traumatic experience. So, again
Michelle is busted by the very paper she tries to use as
support for her, um, advocacy. Sheesh!

I suppose Michelle wants to retreat even further into
the incredible and suggest that since nobody has done
a study to replicate the experiences of, say, the children
in the McMartin trial fiasco (and nobody reputable ever
will because any such study proposal would be shot
down by the ethical review board of the institution or
the journal to which such a horrible study was submitted),
no one can say for absolutely certain beyond _any_
doubt (no matter how unreasonable Michelle's doubt
might be) that "a traumatic memory of abuse could
be planted."

Of course the real-world experiences of Janet Reno's
child victims of prosecutorial abuse in Dade County, FL
and children psychologically tortured by prosecutors
and abuse-seeking zealots claiming psychology credentials
in many other states offer compelling evidence against
just about every single one of Michelle's claims.

>> "The hypothesis that false memories can easily be implanted
>> in psychotherapy (Lindsay & Read, 1994; Loftus 1993;
>> Loftus & Ketcham, 1994; Ofshe and Watters, 1993, 1994;
>> Yapko, 1994a) seriously overstates the available data.
>
> Elizabeth Loftus has been considerd the LEADING expert
> in the world on the subject of human memory.

Yes, and her seminal paper on the subject of implanted
memories is commonly required reading in undergraduate
introductory psychology courses. _Forty Studies that
Changed Psychology_ by Roger R. Hock is on a lot of
Intro Psych assigned student reading lists. It includes
the famous Loftus paper.

> Ms. Pezdek? Hodge? I am a bit amused as to WHY nowhere
> in the article are we provided some clue as to who they are?

It's at the end of the article, Ken. Sheesh! (And cool your jets
so you don't get careless about what you snip.) That last quote
(beginning "The hypothesis that...") Michelle supplied is just
a strawman argument. Michelle doesn't bother to tell us the
criteria the authors of that quote used to define "false memories"
and "easily implanted." And that quote (apparently from
a textbook - for prosecution lawyers?) isn't from a refereed
source. It's just _advocacy_opinion_.

Plus, Michelle would like folks reading her sh*t to ignore
that she elides from 'cannot be easily implanted' to 'could never
be implanted in anybody' - no matter how acceptable of
a fashionable hysteria an adult interviewee is and no matter
how browbeaten a child might be. (There's lots of historical
examples of fashionable hysterias taking hold among adult
women; history that Michelle must ignore in order to cling
to her own abuse-is-everywhere hysteria.)

> Then too I am curious as hell, Michelle, as to WHY you
> deliberately limited your souce to only the first page
> of the article and didn't provide us with the whole article?

Ken, the more you quibble over nonsense, the more likely
you are to score an own goal for Michelle. (Hmmpf!)
She could have simply supplied the cite and had no one
bothered to check it out, gotten away with her attempt to
twist that Pezdek and Hodge paper into something it is
not. (It doesn't do anything to refute Loftus' work, rather
that paper _expands_ upon it!) The reason the link to
JSTOR shows only the first page of the article is because
JSTOR is a _subscription_service_. (Duh. Not everything
on the web is available for the taking. Some people want
to get paid for their work. Unbelievable, huh? ;-)

If one really must get the whole article, a trip to the
nearest university library should be enough. _Child
Development_ is a must-have journal for university
schools of education, psychology departments, and
child development programs. Most university libraries
subscribe to JSTOR or a competing online service
from which articles in major journals can be downloaded
and printed.

--
It ain�t what ya don�t know that hurts ya.
What really puts a hurtin� on ya is
what ya knows for sure, that just ain't so."

Uncle Remus


Andrew Usher

unread,
Nov 10, 2009, 8:28:24 AM11/10/09
to
Society wrote:

<snip>

I don't wish to quibble with most of your post - the recovered memory
nonsense really is dangerous nonsense, but:

> The reason the link to
> JSTOR shows only the first page of the article is because
> JSTOR is a _subscription_service_. (Duh. Not everything
> on the web is available for the taking. Some people want
> to get paid for their work. Unbelievable, huh? ;-)

The authors of research papers do not get paid for their papers. This
is a common mistake by those not familiar with academic practice. Most
if not all professors would be just fine with having their research
articles freely available to everyone but the journal publishers won't
allow it because of THEIR profit.

> If one really must get the whole article, a trip to the
> nearest university library should be enough. _Child
> Development_ is a must-have journal for university
> schools of education, psychology departments, and
> child development programs. Most university libraries
> subscribe to JSTOR or a competing online service
> from which articles in major journals can be downloaded
> and printed.

Unfortunately a university library may not allow guests to access
electronic journals, or at least not easily. You should take a USB
drive anyway, it's better than trying to print there.

This is one of the terrible things about the move to electronic
journals is that it's actually limited access for anyone not
affiliated with a university. There are some open-access journals, but
unfortunately they're still dominated by the for-profit companies. In
my opinion, universities should get together to force open access, at
least for all articles older than a few years.

Andrew Usher

Greegor

unread,
Nov 10, 2009, 12:38:00 PM11/10/09
to
How obvious is it that Michelle or Diana have
PERSONAL reasons to want to sell this stuff?

Diana actually wrote to one university
researcher and tried to argue them
into reversing their finding that ritual
stanic child abuse does not exist.

But she misrepresented WHO she was.

When they wrote back to her under her
real name, she got pissed and complained
that was unprofessional.

Apparently she wanted to conceal her very real
diagnosed mental illness and her legal history.

How professional would it be if the professor
acted on a complaint from a raving mental case?

By the way, Diana does post her letter where
she admits to the subterfuge but calls the
response unprofessional. I did not see her
original complaint letter or the professor's
response letter.

The professor's letter back to her would
be the most interesting, I think.

Not to detract from the academic results
but NBC did a demonstration that makes
suggestibility of kids blatantly obvious
and on film/video so that any lay person
can understand the problem.

By the way, that was not just about
implanted memories, but showed how
interrogating or interviewing the kids
about the blue man on the roof would
have the kids telling stories in a
"matter of fact" way about the blue man
on the roof by the 4th interview.

The kids pick up huge clues about what
the interviewer WANTS TO HEAR.

This is about kids interviews/testimony
USED IN COURT.

Another problem mentioned is that kids
are interviewed over and over without
cameras and THEN after many such
interviews the video camera is turned on.

Considering this situation, people like
Michelle and Diana (when she was
actually a CA CPS caseworker) are
extremely dangerous.

Please note that Diana apparently worked
for CPS in California but if you read her
material she frequently asserts that she was
working FOR THE COURT which is both
factually a deception and reveals her
dangerous intent in that regard.

It's common for CPS caseworkers to pose
as having expertise they DO NOT have,
but most of them are a bit too cagey to
PUBLICLY make such false declarations
of expertise.

Why does Diana repeatedly refer to her
past employment as a COURT something
or other when in fact she worked for CPS?

I strongly suspect that CA/Michelle/Diana
have a PERSONAL stake in the outcome
on this issue, likely in the case of
THEIR OWN perceived abuse there
was NO ACTUAL PROOF.

Since the original argument was about recovered
memories I would suggest that they didn't even
KNOW they were victims until it was ""extracted""
through hypnosis, and NOW they are unable
to cope with the idea they were DUPED by
abusive psychology.

Imagine the horror these people must feel
at the realization that they blamed their
own parents FALSELY of such terrible things!

No wonder some KOOK like Diana/Michelle/CA
would have some trouble accepting that
they were DUPED into believing some
fictional story of child abuse!

And what if they simply DELUDED THEMSELF?

Diana has clearly had other quite vivid DELUSIONS.
It's part of her record!

CA/Michelle/Diana, Was there ever any
actual PROOF of your abuse?

Or was it possibly just a bunch of brain rot
""extracted"" through suggestive interviews
or hypnosis?

Society

unread,
Nov 10, 2009, 11:06:11 PM11/10/09
to

"Andrew Usher" <k_over...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f8573cce-f5eb-4b0e...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

>
> Society wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>
> I don't wish to quibble with most of your post - the recovered memory
> nonsense really is dangerous nonsense, but:
>
>> The reason the link to
>> JSTOR shows only the first page of the article is because
>> JSTOR is a _subscription_service_. (Duh. Not everything
>> on the web is available for the taking. Some people want
>> to get paid for their work. Unbelievable, huh? ;-)
>
> The authors of research papers do not get paid for their papers.

The publishers of the journal and the operators of JSTOR
want to get paid. HTH

--
Mankind was born free, and is everywhere in chainstores.

Doktor Pete


childadvocate

unread,
Nov 10, 2009, 11:12:24 PM11/10/09
to
Loftus' work has been fully rebutted. There are many "experts" in the
field of memory. Her work has been misinterpreted and overextrapolated
to imply that it applies to traumatic memory. Traumatic memory is
stored differently in the brain. Studies on "regular" memory do NOT
apply to traumatic memory.

Look up Bessel van der Kolk's work.

van der Kolk, B. A. (1994). The body keeps the score: Memory and the
evolving psychobiology of post traumatic stress.
http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vanderk4.php

van der Kolk, B. A. & Fisler, R. (1995) Dissociation and the
fragmentary nature of traumatic memories: Overview and exploratory
study.
http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vanderk2.php

Loftus is very biased in her interpretation of traumatic memory. There
is NO evidence that traumatic memory can be created through
manipulation.

Loftus' work has been heavily critiqued.

Several studies and authors have found significant flaws in the
Loftus' Lost in the Mall study. A similar study by Pezdek in 1995
found that none of the study participants accepted an erroneous memory
that they had received a painful enema as a child.[1][2] Crook states
that the Lost in a Shopping Mall study’s application to therapy
situations appears to be “limited to a narrowly defined and perhaps
even unlikely situation” and states that the study’s “internal
scientific methodological errors cast doubt on the validity of the
claims” of the study.[3] [1]Crook also states that it has been
demonstrated that the “methods, data, and assumptions in the mall
study have not been subjected to rigorous scientific scrutiny” yet its
results have been reported to the media to support the claim that
“therapists can implant false memories of childhood trauma.”[2] Pope
also questions the study. He questions the analogy of a memory of
being lost in the mall as being equivalent to that of child rape. He
also talks about the problem of confounding variables in the study. If
an older family member claims to have seen the “false” memory, can a
therapist make the same claim? And should this research be applied to
“false” memories in therapy?[4][5] Others have also critiqued Loftus’
scholarship and accuracy[6] or that Loftus’ has done research that may
contradict her own beliefs of recovered memories. [7]

References

1 Pezdek, K; Hodge, D. (July-August 1999). "Planting false childhood
memories: The role of event plausibility". Child Development 70 (4):
887–895. doi:10.1111/1467-8624.00064. Retrieved on 2008-01-30. “This


experiment tested and supported the hypothesis that events will be
suggestively planted in children's memory to the degree that the
suggested event is plausible and script-relevant knowledge exists in

memory.”

2 K. Pezdek, Planting False Childhood Memories: When Does It Occur and
When Does It Not? paper presented at the 36th Annual Meeting of the
Psychonomics Society (Nov. 10-12, 1995) cited in Murphy, Wendy J.
(1997).Debunking "false memory" myths in sexual abuse cases.Trial:
Journal of the Association of Trial Lawyers of America, November,
1997. Retrieved June 05, 2008

3 Crook, L. (1999). "Lost in a Shopping Mall--A Breach of Professional
Ethics.". Ethics & Behavior. 9 (1): 39–50. doi:10.1207/
s15327019eb0901_3. Retrieved on 2008-01-18. “An analysis of the mall
study shows that beyond the external misrepresentations, internal
scientific methodological errors cast doubt on the validity of the
claims that have been attributed to the mall study within scholarly
and legal arenas. The minimal involvement——or, in some cases, negative
impact——of collegial consultation, academic supervision, and peer
review throughout the evolution of the mall study are reviewed.”

4 Pope, K. (1996). "Memory, Abuse, and Science: Questioning Claims
About the False Memory Syndrome Epidemic". American Psychologist 51:
957. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.51.9.957. Retrieved on 2008-01-31. “Does
the trauma specified in the lost-in-the-mall experiment seem
comparable to the trauma forming the basis of false memory syndrome?
Loftus (1993) described the implanted traumatic event in the shopping-
mall experiment as follows: "Chris was convinced by his older brother
Jim, that he had been lost in a shopping mall when he was five years
old" (p. 532). Does this seem, for example, a reasonable analogy for a
five-year-old girl being repeatedly raped by her father?....Is it
possible that the findings are an artifact of this particular design,
for example, that the older family member claims to have been present
when the event occurred and to have witnessed it, a claim the
therapist can never make? To date, replications and extensions of this
study have tended to use a similar methodology; that is, either the
older family member makes the suggestions in his or her role as the
experimenter's confederate, or the experimenter presents the
suggestion as being the report of an older family member, thus
creating a surrogate confederate.”

5 "Memory, Abuse, & Science: Questioning Claims about the False Memory
Syndrome Epidemic" (1996). American Psychologist vol. 51, no. 9: pp
957–974..

6 Jennifer Hoult, Esq.. "Consider the Evidence for Elizabeth Loftus'
Scholarship and Accuracy "Remembering Dangerously" & Hoult v. Hoult:
The Myth of Repressed Memory that Elizabeth Loftus Created".

7 Hopper, J.. "Recovered Memories of Sexual Abuse Scientific Research
& Scholarly Resources". "Loftus has conducted and published research
which calls into question her public statements on recovered memories;
her own study demonstrated that the conditions of amnesia and delayed
recall for sexual abuse do exist"

--


Elizabeth Loftus herself has published studies showing evidence of
recovered memory. The 4 January 1996 issue of Accuracy About Abuse
notes: Elizabeth Loftus, high profile FMSF advocate, published a paper
with colleagues on Remembering and Repressing in 1994. In a study of
105 women outpatients in a substance abuse clinic 54 % reported a
history of childhood sexual abuse. 81% remembered all or part of the
abuse. 19% reported they forgot the abuse for a period of time and
later the memory returned. Women who remembered the abuse their whole
lives reported a clearer memory, with a more detailed picture. Women
who remembered the abuse their whole lives did not differ from others
in terms of the violence of the abuse or whether the violence was
incestuous. [Psychology of Women Quarterly, 18 (1994) 67-84.]

Loftus has also discussed "motivated forgetting", and has presented
the documented study of a college professor who became unable to
remember a series of traumas, but after some time was able to recover
those memories. Loftus remarked "after such an enormously stressful
experience, many individuals wish to forget... And often their wish is
granted." (Loftus, 1980/1988, p. 73)"
http://web.archive.org/web/20030608221633/http://www.feminista.com/v1n9/false-memory.html

"The hypothesis that false memories can easily be implanted in
psychotherapy (Lindsay & Read, 1994; Loftus 1993; Loftus & Ketcham,
1994; Ofshe and Watters, 1993, 1994; Yapko, 1994a) seriously

overstates the available data. Since no studies have been conducted on
suggested effects in psychotherapy per se, the idea of iatrogenic
suggestion of false memories remains an untested hypothesis. (Memory,
Trauma Treatment, And the Law Brown, Scheflin and Hammond (D.
Corydon), 1998, W. W. Norton 0-393-70254-5)

http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/#el
Elizabeth Loftus
Loftus is aware that those who study traumatic memory have for several
years, based on a great deal of research and clinical experience, used
the construct of dissociation to account for the majority of recovered
memories. However, she continues to focus on and attack "repression"
and "repressed memories," which has the effect of confusing and
misleading many people.

http://users.owt.com/crook/memory/
"Lost in a Shopping Mall"—A Breach of Professional Ethics
ETHICS & BEHAVIOR, vol. 9, #1, pp. 39-50
The "lost in a shopping mall" study has been cited to support claims
that psychotherapists can implant memories of false autobiographical
information of childhood trauma in their patients. The mall study
originated in 1991 as 5 pilot experiments involving 3 children and 2
adult participants. The University of Washington Human Subjects
Committee granted approval for the mall study on August 10, 1992. The
preliminary results with the 5 pilot subjects were announced 4 days
later. An analysis of the mall study shows that beyond the external
misrepresentations, internal scientific methodological errors cast
doubt on the validity of the claims that have been attributed to the
mall study within scholarly and legal arenas. The minimal involvement—
or, in some cases, negative impact—of collegial consultation, academic
supervision, and peer review throughout the evolution of the mall
study are reviewed.


---

childadvocate

unread,
Nov 10, 2009, 11:32:38 PM11/10/09
to
http://ritualabuse.us/ritualabuse/articles/mcmartin-preschool-case-what-really-happened-and-the-coverup/

In Pezdek's et al. study, only child one recalled the "implausible
false event." This memory, a "rectal enema," is quite different than a
memory of child abuse, where the stigma of disclosure is much greater
and the betrayal of the child by the adult is much larger.


In McMartin, even a majority of the jury believed the children were
abused.
http://ritualabuse.us/ritualabuse/articles/mcmartin-preschool-case-what-really-happened-and-the-coverup/

Behind the Playground Walls – Sexual Abuse in Preschools by Jill
Waterman, Robert J. Kelly, Mary Kay Oliveri and Jane McCord – The
Guilford Press – New York, London 1993 “In the most well-known case,
involving the McMartin Preschool in Manhattan Beach, California, two
juries from successive trials became hopelessly deadlocked and failed
to agree on a verdict after 7 years of investigation and trial. At the
press conference following the trial, 9 of the 11 jurors who agreed to
be interviewed indicated that they believed the children had been
molested, but they felt that the evidence presented did not enable
them to state beyond a reasonable doubt who had perpetrated the
abuse.” (p. vii) (Source: Los Angeles Times, January 19, 1990, pp. A1
and A22) “Tapes of Children Decided the Case for Most Jurors” Tracy
Wilkinson and James Rainey – Los Angeles Times p.A1 and A2 – 1/19/1990
chapter in book : A Tale of Two Communities” by Jane McCord


tunnels backing up the children's stories were found at McMartin

Archaeological Investigations of the McMartin Preschool Site,
Manhattan Beach, California
http://web.archive.org/web/20010123212200/members.cruzio.com/~ratf/McMartin.html/
The project unearthed not one but two tunnel complexes as well as
previously unrecognized structural features which defied logical
explanation. Both tunnel complexes conformed to locations and
functional descriptions established by children’s reports. One had
been described as providing undetected access to an adjacent building
on the east. The other provided outside access under the west wall of
the building and contained within it an enlarged, cavernous artifact
corresponding to children’s descriptions of a “secret room”.

Summit, R.C. (1994). “The Dark Tunnels of McMartin” Journal of
Psychohistory 21 (4): 397-416.
http://ritualabuse.us/ritualabuse/articles/the-dark-tunnels-of-mcmartin-dr-roland-c-summit-journal-of-psychohistory/
Parents and therapists began hearing children’s descriptions of
underground activities within months of their initial, more
conservative disclosures. Children described tunnels under the floor
of the preschool which led to an outside exit under the rabbit hutch,
and another underground passage to the neighboring building. They
explained they would be loaded into vehicles in the garage of that
building for transport to other locations of group ritual. They
described also a secret room accessed by the tunnels under the
preschool.

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/Eberle.html
Paul and Shirley Eberle: A Strange Pair of Experts
by Maria Laurina

Paul and Shirley Eberle wrote The Politics of Child Abuse, a book that
accuses mothers, mental health professionals, and prosecutors of
feeding children stories about sexual abuse. Since the book was
published by Lyle Stuart in l986, the Eberles have been cited as
experts in sexual abuse trials. They were featured speakers at a
conference of the Victims of Child Abuse Laws, a group formed to
protect accused parents.
What is startling about the Eberles’ reputation as ground-breaking
experts in the field is that their dubious credentials have not been
widely challenged. Paul and Shirley Eberle edit a soft-core magazine
in California called the L.A. Star that contains a mixture of nude
photos, celebrity gossip, telephone sex ads, and promos for The
Politics of Child Abuse.
In the 1970’s, however, the Eberles were also publishing hard-core
pornography.

----


Planting False Childhood Memories in Children: The Role of Event
Plausibility – Kathy Pezdek; Danelle Hodge – Child Development, Vol.
70, No. 4. (Jul. – Aug., 1999), pp. 887-895. Stable URL:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1132249 This experiment tested and supported
the hypothesis that events will be suggestively planted in children’s
memory to the degree that the suggested event is plausible and script-
relevant knowledge exists in memory. Nineteen 5- to 7-year-old
children and 20 9- to 12-year-old children were read descriptions of
two true events and two false events, reported to have occurred when
they were 4 years old. One false event described the child lost in a
mall while shopping (the plausible false event); the other false event
described the child receiving a rectal enema (the implausible false
event). The majority of the 39 children (54%) did not remember either
false event. However, whereas 14 children recalled the plausible but
not the implausible false event, only one child recalled the
implausible but not the plausible false event; this difference was
statistically significant. Three additional children (all in the
younger age group) recalled both false events. Although this pattern
of results was consistent for both age groups, the differences were
significant for the younger children only. A framework is outlined
specifying the cognitive processes underlying suggestively planting
false events in memory.


--


"one child recalled the implausible but not the plausible false

event...The "implausible event" was "a rectal enema," something one


could consider to be a traumatic experience."

"the children in the McMartin trial fiasco"

Andrew Usher

unread,
Nov 11, 2009, 6:08:53 AM11/11/09
to
The crime of electronic journals

On Nov 10, 10:06 pm, "Society" <Soci...@feminism.is.invalid> wrote:

> >> The reason the link to
> >> JSTOR shows only the first page of the article is because
> >> JSTOR is a _subscription_service_. (Duh. Not everything
> >> on the web is available for the taking. Some people want
> >> to get paid for their work. Unbelievable, huh? ;-)
>
> > The authors of research papers do not get paid for their papers.
>
> The publishers of the journal and the operators of JSTOR
> want to get paid. HTH

That's what I acknowledged in my post, which you snipped. Why do they
more deserve payment than the actual people that did the research?
What are they contributing?

Scientific knowledge is rightfully the common property of mankind and
doesn't deserve to be hidden from the public.

Andrew Usher

Message has been deleted

Greegor

unread,
Nov 11, 2009, 12:25:08 PM11/11/09
to
Kent, You are a moron.

womanGoddess

unread,
Nov 11, 2009, 3:56:31 PM11/11/09
to
On Nov 11, 11:25 am, Greegor <greego...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kent, You are a moron.

Coming from a guy whose mental faculties are severely hampered by his
illegal drug abuse, you calling Kent a moron is highly ironic.

Moe
Eternal FOREVER KNIGHT fan
" A vampire cop? REALLY?"
"http://home.earthlink.net/~19ranger57/blies.htm

Know your scum--- http://www.aboutkenpangborn.com

Message has been deleted

krp

unread,
Nov 12, 2009, 4:21:38 AM11/12/09
to

"Kent Wills" <comp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:svjnf5tjv286o05p2...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:25:08 -0800 (PST), Greegor
> <gree...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Kent, You are a moron.
>
> If I am, you should have no trouble countering the points I
> raised and you snipped.

Nobody HAS any problem refuting your BULLSHIT, Wills you just make lame
excuses for that you are so STUPID.

Message has been deleted

Society

unread,
Nov 12, 2009, 6:29:08 AM11/12/09
to

"Andrew Usher" <k_over...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58b5f412-ce45-4c98...@s15g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...

>
> "Society" <Soci...@feminism.is.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> The publishers of the journal and the operators of JSTOR
>> want to get paid. HTH
>
> Why do they more deserve payment than the actual people
> that did the research? What are they contributing?

"Deserve" doesn't mean what you think it means, Andrew Usher.

What are the publishers (paper or electronic) contributing?
Lessee, access to interested readers, subscribers, editing,
printing, mailing, operating a web site with a database, and
a whole bunch of other stuff "the actual people that did the
research" and seek to disseminate said research find easier
to pay someone else to do.

> Scientific knowledge is rightfully the common property
> of mankind and doesn't deserve to be hidden from the public.

I disagree. I am not morally required to give up anything I learn.
If I cast pearls before swine, I expect at least a pork chop
in return.

--
From each according to his abilities,
to each according to his needs.

Karl Marx, _Criticism of the Gotha Programme_


krp

unread,
Nov 12, 2009, 9:03:42 AM11/12/09
to

"Kent Wills" <comp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dvpnf5dsnuun9ddlq...@4ax.com...

>>>>Kent, You are a moron.
>>>
>>> If I am, you should have no trouble countering the points I
>>> raised and you snipped.
>>
>>Nobody HAS any problem refuting your BULLSHIT,

> Then why have you and Greg NEVER been able to do so?

Look TARZAN - you can stand there feet wide apart beating your chest
claiming you have never lost all you want. Shall we start with your claims
regarding your allegatuion that I was "BOOTED" out of ASTC? When I refute
your "SHIT" you merely rephrase is claiming I couldn't pay. When I refute
that you change again. Yet the FIRST POINT you made wa sthat I was kicked
out. Which by now everyone knows was just more of your psychotic BULLSHIT!


>
>>Wills you just make lame >excuses for that you are so STUPID.

> Yet I consistently PROVE I'm your intellectual superior.

You remain a legend solely in your own mind, Kunt!!!!!

Greegor

unread,
Nov 12, 2009, 2:05:01 PM11/12/09
to
On Nov 12, 8:03 am, "krp" <kr...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> "Kent Wills" <compu...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:dvpnf5dsnuun9ddlq...@4ax.com...
>
> >>>>Kent, You are a moron.
>
> >>>     If I am, you should have no trouble countering the points I
> >>> raised and you snipped.
>
> >>Nobody HAS any problem refuting your BULLSHIT,
> >     Then why have you and Greg NEVER been able to do so?
>
>     Look TARZAN - you can stand there feet wide apart beating your chest
> claiming you have never lost all you want. Shall we start with your claims
> regarding your allegatuion that I was "BOOTED" out of ASTC?  When I refute
> your "SHIT" you merely rephrase is claiming I couldn't pay. When I refute
> that you change again. Yet the FIRST POINT you made wa sthat I was kicked
> out. Which by now everyone knows was just more of your psychotic BULLSHIT!
>
>
>
> >>Wills you just make lame >excuses for that you are so STUPID.

KBW > Yet I consistently PROVE I'm your intellectual superior.

KRP > You remain a legend solely in your own mind, Kunt!!!!!

I think Kent plays too many fantasy games
or watches too much fantasy TV.

We already KNOW about Moe's fantasy world.

She's an expert on criminology 'cause she's
a TRUE CRIME fan! LOL

She must also be an expert on vampire cops.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

krp

unread,
Nov 13, 2009, 5:31:55 AM11/13/09
to
Paddling down the river of insanity comes along

"Kent Wills" <comp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fgaqf5l7g584l3m9a...@4ax.com...

>>>>>>Kent, You are a moron.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I am, you should have no trouble countering the points I
>>>>> raised and you snipped.
>>>>
>>>>Nobody HAS any problem refuting your BULLSHIT,
>>
>>> Then why have you and Greg NEVER been able to do so?
>>
>> Look TARZAN - you can stand there feet wide apart beating your chest
>>claiming you have never lost all you want.

> That's not the claim I've made.

Sure it is TARZAN!

> It's true I've never lost to you or Greg. That's because you are
> both reduced to lying, as you prove next.

Hello Mr. POT!

>>Shall we start with your claims regarding your allegation that I was
>>"BOOTED" out of ASTC?

> I made no such claim.

You did repeatedly for a week while I played ROPE A DOPE with you. You
were HOWLING until I posted the link to show I was STILL a member. Then you
changed your claim from that I was "BOOTED" because of racism and sexism, to
your FACT CLAIM that I couldn't afford the dues. You always have a fallback
BULLSHIT position, Kunt. You are INCAPABLE of admitting you are wrong.

> I did ask if the reason you weren't a member was because you couldn't
> afford the dues.
> You never did answer.

No Kunt you STATED that as a "FACT" suggesting you had some form of
PROOF of your psychotic claim.

>>When I refute your "SHIT" you merely rephrase is claiming I couldn't pay.

> I asked, I didn't claim.

YoU CLAIMED it to be a FACT!

> You freely admitted that you were not a member at the time I
> asked the question, so you can't even claim I was being deceptive in
> my question.

Oh, yes I did - - DOPE..

>>When I refute that you change again.

> How does your drunken mind think you refuted a question?
> Especially since you've never answered it.

It wasn't a question Wills, it was a CLAIM OF FACT.

>>Yet the FIRST POINT you made wa sthat I was kicked out.

> I made no such claim.

You not only claimed I was kicked out, you claimed WHY. (Racism and
sexism.) Stated as "FACTS" which you suggested that you were in posession of
to support your claims.


>>Which by now everyone knows was just more of your psychotic BULLSHIT!

> Whereas I never made the claim, your lie fails. Again.
> Given how often you FAIL with this tactic, I have to wonder why
> you continue to use it.

But you DID in fact make the claim VERY DOGMATICALLY. Your strident
claims certainly suggested with an extremely heavy hand that you had
firsthand knowledge of the claims you were making. You weren't satisfied to
claim I was kicked out, you went on to claim WHY. Like you ALWAYS DO when
you are trapped with your lies, you try to lie your way out of having been
exposed for the liar you are Wills. I waited for ALL of the gang of 4 to
join in. Moore started it, and like his obedient little lap-dog, you
immediately joined in adding your own flavor to the soup then came mindless
Moe and finally Danny Sullivan. All 4 of you were orgasmic with what you
THOUGHT you had on me. How long did it take to clean your keyboard, Wills?


Message has been deleted

watcher

unread,
Nov 23, 2009, 1:58:57 AM11/23/09
to
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:57:24 -0500, krp wrote:
> "childadvocate" <smar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:8f6ea0ce-eb41-417b...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

[...]

> Yes Michelle, I know.

Your stalky obsession is showing.

Neil Brick of Smart News, has had the smar...@aol.com email address for
well over a decade.

http://www.mail-archive.com/ct...@listserv.aol.com/msg104515.html
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/neil-brick-neil-brick/a/657/731

krp

unread,
Nov 23, 2009, 4:25:49 AM11/23/09
to

"watcher" <imawa...@post.master> wrote in message
news:14zeokr25r031$.dlg@post.master...

> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:57:24 -0500, krp wrote:
>> "childadvocate" <smar...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:8f6ea0ce-eb41-417b...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
> [...]
>
>> Yes Michelle, I know.
>
> Your stalky obsession is showing.
>
> Neil Brick of Smart News, has had the smar...@aol.com email address for
> well over a decade.

Interesting. Does he appear in other forums pretending to be a woman?

Greegor

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Nov 23, 2009, 7:01:06 AM11/23/09
to
KRP > Yes Michelle, I know.

w > Your stalky obsession is showing.
w > Neil Brick of Smart News, has had the smartn...@aol.com
w > email address for well over a decade.

KRP > Interesting. Does he appear in other
KRP > forums pretending to be a woman?

I still think childadvocate is Diana Napolis.
She is famous for use of sock identities.
Diana also RECENTLY used a fictitious
name since she got sprung in her attempt
to get the University researcher to
reverse his results.

Diana considers herself a child advocate.

krp

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Nov 23, 2009, 2:32:19 PM11/23/09
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"Greegor" <gree...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b8e9a52a-44dd-4951...@u20g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...

Well I was convinced it was Michelle Devereaux a woman with wildly
alternating views on repressed memories. One minute believing she was
abused, then believing in falser memories and back to believing she was
abused again. You need a score card to see what she is today.

watcher

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Nov 23, 2009, 4:06:32 PM11/23/09
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On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:01:06 -0800 (PST), Greegor wrote:
> KRP > Yes Michelle, I know.
>
> w > Your stalky obsession is showing.
> w > Neil Brick of Smart News, has had the smartn...@aol.com
> w > email address for well over a decade.
>
> KRP > Interesting. Does he appear in other
> KRP > forums pretending to be a woman?
>
> I still think childadvocate is Diana Napolis.

Definitely not. He's been fighting with people on a feminist list serve for
the past year and puts himself forth as some sort of self-styled RA
researcher. Here are some older articles of his.

Excerpt from RA survivor conference:
http://ritualabuse.us/mindcontrol/how-cues-and-programming-work-in-mind-control-and-propaganda/

My name is Neil Brick and today I will be speaking about How Cues and
Programming Work in Mind Control and Propaganda as well as how to avoid
these cues. I am the editor of the SMART newsletter and sponsor of the
Ritual Abuse, Secretive Organizations and Mind Control Conference held in
Connecticut near Bradley every summer in August.

Excerpt from:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism86.html


Neil Brick, himself an alleged survivor of ritual abuse, says his
self-discovery of past lives began about 10 years ago during a troubled
part of his life. "My whole life was very dysfunctional," Brick says. "I
was always tense, always holding my emotions in very tightly. I had a lot
of life issues -- could not hold a job, had a failed marriage, drinking."

Only after straightening his life out and seeking psychological help did he
become aware of his past life. Short in stature, Brick says that "the
government kept me small so that I could easily fit through ducts and
crawlspaces when I was on missions."

He claims to have recurring memories of his part in assassination missions
behind the Iron Curtain. Estranged from his family, Brick says he blames
his parents and others for allowing his abuse.

"I have not been in touch with my family for quite a while," Brick says.
"My belief is that my family is still in the group, possibly for financial
reasons."

Greegor

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Nov 28, 2009, 3:21:47 AM11/28/09
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On Nov 10, 10:12 pm, childadvocate <smartn...@aol.com> wrote:
> Loftus' work has been fully rebutted. There are many "experts" in the
> field of memory. Her work has been misinterpreted and overextrapolated
> to imply that it applies to traumatic memory. Traumatic memory is
> stored differently in the brain. Studies on "regular" memory do NOT
> apply to traumatic memory.
>
> Look up Bessel van der Kolk's work.
>
> van der Kolk, B. A. (1994). The body keeps the score: Memory and the
> evolving psychobiology of post traumatic stress.http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vanderk4.php

>
> van der Kolk, B. A. & Fisler, R. (1995) Dissociation and the
> fragmentary nature of traumatic memories: Overview and exploratory
> study.http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vanderk2.php
> granted." (Loftus, 1980/1988, p. 73)"http://web.archive.org/web/20030608221633/http://www.feminista.com/v1...

CA - Please point out where your agenda differs from that of Diana
Napolis.

I presume you know each other well.

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