money question

[Allan H]

how can money that was stolen be past down to the next generation,,  it seems that it becomes perfectly acceptable and the wealth is considered no longer acceptable.

Yet if i buy a painting that was stolen still belongs to the family it was stolen from?  It seems it is applied selectively..

--
 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

[Allan H]

oops  I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen and has become acceptable..  even when it is widely know the source is theft..

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[James]

It sounds like a challenge fit for one of those legendary wise leaders
who presents a challenge and distributes the loss according to just
deserts. But I can't help but wonder what a just challenge would be for
the plaintiff, and what type of arbitration would be sufficient. It is a
puzzle Allan, is the theft held among one generation or multiple, what
interests are held against it currently?

On 6/2/2013 1:48 PM, Allan H wrote:
> oops I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen and has become
> acceptable.. even when it is widely know the source is theft..
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Allan H <allan...@gmail.com
> <mailto:allan...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> how can money that was stolen be past down to the next
> generation,, it seems that it becomes perfectly acceptable and
> the wealth is considered no longer acceptable.
>
> Yet if i buy a painting that was stolen still belongs to the
> family it was stolen from? It seems it is applied selectively..
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,
> Sometimes I need expert advice..
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:minds-eye%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

[rigs]

There's earned wealth/fortune and stolen wealth/fortune and I see no
reason why it shouldn't be passed down through generations. Think of
farms or businesses that have been in the family for generations, etc.
The Brits don't dump the Queen, do they? Yet many actions of the
British (brutish) Empire were unacceptable. I read last week or so
that they shipped 50,000 felons to America prior to the Revolution
which I hadn't known before- maybe it's true or not. Anyway, Democrats
are great about inciting class and income warfare as an election
tactic-and it works! Let's face it greed and envy take many forms. I
was just ripped off by a roofer, for heaven's sake! And now I must
decide whether to make this ex-Marine/roofer/heavy metal guitar player
squirm via the building inspector or pretend I took an expensive
vacation, caught the flu, and spent two weeks in bed.

On Jun 2, 12:48 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> oops  I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen and has become
> acceptable..  even when it is widely know the source is theft..
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > how can money that was stolen be past down to the next generation,,  it
> > seems that it becomes perfectly acceptable and the wealth is considered no
> > longer acceptable.
>
> > Yet if i buy a painting that was stolen still belongs to the family it was
> > stolen from?  It seems it is applied selectively..
>
> > --
> >  (
> >   )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > Of course I talk to myself,
> > Sometimes I need expert advice..
>
> > --
>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > ""Minds Eye"" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

>
> --
>  (
>   )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,

> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rigs]

Part of the problem is the tradition of using warfare and conquest as
an opportunity to rape and pillage and amass slave labor and
resources. And business can be a form of warfare. Sometimes justice
happens slowly outside the courts like a dark cloud. Lawyers are
despied until you really, really need one. And doctors have the
repuation of burying their mistakes and dislike the fees for
malpractice insurance. Look at the problems females have in the
military and business world reporting sexual harassment. No wonder
Justice is blind!

On Jun 2, 8:02 pm, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It sounds like a challenge fit for one of those legendary wise leaders
> who presents a challenge and distributes the loss according to just
> deserts. But I can't help but wonder what a just challenge would be for
> the plaintiff, and what type of arbitration would be sufficient. It is a
> puzzle Allan, is the theft held among one generation or multiple, what
> interests are held against it currently?
>
> On 6/2/2013 1:48 PM, Allan H wrote:
>
>
>
> > oops  I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen and has become
> > acceptable..  even when it is widely know the source is theft..
>

> > On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >     how can money that was stolen be past down to the next
> >     generation,,  it seems that it becomes perfectly acceptable and
> >     the wealth is considered no longer acceptable.
>
> >     Yet if i buy a painting that was stolen still belongs to the
> >     family it was stolen from?  It seems it is applied selectively..
>
> >     --
> >      (
> >       )
> >     |_D Allan
>
> >     Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >     Of course I talk to myself,
> >     Sometimes I need expert advice..
> >     --
>
> >     ---
> >     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >     Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >     send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com
> >     <mailto:minds-eye%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> >     For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

>
> > --
> >  (
> >   )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > Of course I talk to myself,
> > Sometimes I need expert advice..
> > --
>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> > an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.- Hide quoted text -

[James]

Justice is also blind of skill, manipulation, corruption, nepotism and
many fine traits that sociopaths will deploy in pursuit of fairness (as
in love and war). You really can learn a lot about people in how they
exercise power and authority, especially from beneath the cloud. Someone
gave me a sideways glance the other day when they mentioned the
importance of loyalty and I am glad they did, I might not have pieced
together with such clarity that some people are out looking for dogs,
whereas I tend to differ on fairness and am looking for the genuine and
authentic. On bearing crosses and turning cheek it seems I would do well
to follow gabby and RP's advice, a long lesson of mine.

Thanks Molly for the great tips lately, it is meshing well with my
better foot! :)

[Allan H]

what really bothers me is according to history the acquiring of this wealth also involved wholesale slaughter of men women and children to the point it is recorded that the river ran red with their blood. Today it is pure and clear grounds for crimes against humanity.  this type of activities are still going on today.. seems governments are trying to recover massive funds stolen by dictators  modern day version of middle ages kings and royalty.

I see these royal? families lapping up the luxuries that came  from theft and murder..  the word protection keeps popping up it seems that the protection needed was from the people claiming to be providing the protection..  today  I see them strutting  around in the this stolen wealth claiming that it is their inheritance.

It seems to me that if you accept the wealth that was stolen or produced as a by product of stolen lands and wealth that you also inherit the moral responsibility including the prison time.  including the life sentences and the return of all the wealth..

On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:02 AM, James <ashk...@gmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like a challenge fit for one of those legendary wise leaders who presents a challenge and distributes the loss according to just deserts. But I can't help but wonder what a just challenge would be for the plaintiff, and what type of arbitration would be sufficient. It is a puzzle Allan, is the theft held among one generation or multiple, what interests are held against it currently?

On 6/2/2013 1:48 PM, Allan H wrote:

oops  I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen and has become acceptable..  even when it is widely know the source is theft..

On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Allan H <allan...@gmail.com <mailto:allan...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    how can money that was stolen be past down to the next
    generation,,  it seems that it becomes perfectly acceptable and
    the wealth is considered no longer acceptable.

    Yet if i buy a painting that was stolen still belongs to the
    family it was stolen from?  It seems it is applied selectively..

    --      (
      )
    |_D Allan

    Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

    Of course I talk to myself,
    Sometimes I need expert advice..
    --
    ---
    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
    Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
    To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

    send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

    <mailto:minds-eye%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

    For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.





--
 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
--

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[Allan H]

All is fair in love and war  well that is nothing more than a soul trying to justify immoral actions and flagrant violation of the prime commandment "Do No Harm"..    

If stole stolen wealth should be able to through generations,, then what is stolen today should be able be passed  on..  interesting as that would easily clear americas prisons..  all is fair in love and war..

[archytas]

The issue of private property has long been moot. The question of
whether Christ owned the clothes he wore was important to Wycliffe -
though his protector John O'Gaunt saw this as a means to remove
property from the churches. Locke's view was that property rights
emerged from work done. English property law has a lot to do with
12th century statute aimed at stopping feuding over castles. When
slavery was abolished we paid reparation to the slave owners not the
slaves - and this money can be traced to today (in today's money it
was in billions). The same is true of Nazi loot Much land in the UK
was seized by enclosure of commonly owned plots. Shakespeare was
involved and Coriolanus was about it and his own experience with his
land investment around Stratford. Francis Bacon wrote on it all too.
We are seeing a repeat of such times in England on a global basis
now. For Shakespeare and Bacon it was about a failure in leadership.

The financial system is built to obscure money origins and flows.
This need not be the case as we could have a management information
system doing this with equality of access - subject to the prevention
of sabotage and so on. If we look to a future approaching 100% robot
heaven we might wonder about the nature of wealth and why we allow
such disproportionate holdings of it now. In past robotic innovations
like sheep instead of tenant farmers, the rich were prepared to let
uneconomic labour die.

Technically, if Allan bought a stolen painting (or car) in all
innocence and resold it, we could sequester his cash from the sale -
though in practice we wouldn't do this if we got the painting back.
Of course, real crooks are more cunning and stash offshore. Weirdly,
vulture funds can obtain contracts illegally and still sue in
jurisdictions where the original other party to the contract is known
t have funds - so you can buy a Congo contract from a dubious Eastern
European to 2 million (he has presumably stolen it) when its face
value is 50 million and sue for the 50 million in Jersey because the
Congo government has funds lodged there. These funds will have been
stolen from ordinary people in the Congo, but lawyers aren't
interested in them. Courts in the US do much the same. No one is
bothered the original contract was to supply schools, hospitals and
roads or tell the vultures to provide these with their money from the
court.

TARP, BARF (honestly), QE and the rest are a form of this, essentially
about stealing our assets by giving rich people first use of money
generated from us (called the Cantillon effect). The cowboy roofer is
small fry compared with the carpet-baggers to come. I'm in Machau
(selling some academic stuff) for a week over summer. Got a spare
$1.6 million so I can hobnob with Chinese black money on the 36th
floor of the biggest casino rigs? I'll have to promise to bet that
amount to get in to meet your beloved rich.

On 3 June, 08:36, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All is fair in love and war  well that is nothing more than a soul trying
> to justify immoral actions and flagrant violation of the prime commandment
> "Do No Harm"..
>
> If stole stolen wealth should be able to through generations,, then what is
> stolen today should be able be passed  on..  interesting as that would
> easily clear americas prisons..  all is fair in love and war..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > what really bothers me is according to history the acquiring of this
> > wealth also involved wholesale slaughter of men women and children to the
> > point it is recorded that the river ran red with their blood. Today it is
> > pure and clear grounds for crimes against humanity.  this type of
> > activities are still going on today.. seems governments are trying to
> > recover massive funds stolen by dictators  modern day version of middle
> > ages kings and royalty.
>
> > I see these royal? families lapping up the luxuries that came  from theft
> > and murder..  the word protection keeps popping up it seems that the
> > protection needed was from the people claiming to be providing the
> > protection..  today  I see them strutting  around in the this stolen wealth
> > claiming that it is their inheritance.
>
> > It seems to me that if you accept the wealth that was stolen or produced
> > as a by product of stolen lands and wealth that you also inherit the moral
> > responsibility including the prison time.  including the life sentences and
> > the return of all the wealth..
>

> > On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:02 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> It sounds like a challenge fit for one of those legendary wise leaders
> >> who presents a challenge and distributes the loss according to just
> >> deserts. But I can't help but wonder what a just challenge would be for the
> >> plaintiff, and what type of arbitration would be sufficient. It is a puzzle
> >> Allan, is the theft held among one generation or multiple, what interests
> >> are held against it currently?
>
> >> On 6/2/2013 1:48 PM, Allan H wrote:
>
> >>> oops  I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen and has become
> >>> acceptable..  even when it is widely know the source is theft..
>

> >>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com <mailto:
> >>> allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >>>     how can money that was stolen be past down to the next
> >>>     generation,,  it seems that it becomes perfectly acceptable and
> >>>     the wealth is considered no longer acceptable.
>
> >>>     Yet if i buy a painting that was stolen still belongs to the
> >>>     family it was stolen from?  It seems it is applied selectively..
>
> >>>     --      (
> >>>       )
> >>>     |_D Allan
>
> >>>     Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >>>     Of course I talk to myself,
> >>>     Sometimes I need expert advice..
> >>>     --
> >>>     ---
> >>>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>     Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >>>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> >>>     send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
> >>>     <mailto:minds-eye%**2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<minds-eye%252Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>
> >>> **>.
>
> >>>     For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> >>> .

>
> >>> --
> >>>  (
> >>>   )
> >>> |_D Allan
>
> >>> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >>> Of course I talk to myself,
> >>> Sometimes I need expert advice..
> >>> --
>
> >>> ---
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> >>> an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
> >>> .
> >>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> >>> .

>
> >> --
>
> >> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> >> email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
> >> .
> >> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> >> .

[rigs]

If I had a spare $1.6 million I wouldn't be worried about my garage
roof, would I? And before you fly off the adjectives about my beloved
rich, you might want to get your facts straight about me should I
chose to reveal facts to you.//An independent roofer is coming
tomorrow to analyse the job and the city building inspector is coming
on Thursday. I will also call the state to check out particulars with
their department.My task is to calm my emotions according to
everyone's advice. :-)//You will note I said honest work not theft,
above. The problem is that Liberals/socialists want everyone to be
equal yet diverse in talent and abilities.//I am reading parts of "The
Prince" and find Machiavelli's comments astute.//Have also made moves
to help the amoked family plans but it's now up to others.//I don't
gamble but might enjoy a dinner...Peking Duck...or won-ton soup. Have
been so upset I had Ramen with extras tonight.

> > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -

[rigs]

I thought "Do no harm" was for doctors. All is not fair in love and
war but watch out for the blowback.

On Jun 3, 2:36 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All is fair in love and war  well that is nothing more than a soul trying
> to justify immoral actions and flagrant violation of the prime commandment
> "Do No Harm"..
>
> If stole stolen wealth should be able to through generations,, then what is
> stolen today should be able be passed  on..  interesting as that would
> easily clear americas prisons..  all is fair in love and war..
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > what really bothers me is according to history the acquiring of this
> > wealth also involved wholesale slaughter of men women and children to the
> > point it is recorded that the river ran red with their blood. Today it is
> > pure and clear grounds for crimes against humanity.  this type of
> > activities are still going on today.. seems governments are trying to
> > recover massive funds stolen by dictators  modern day version of middle
> > ages kings and royalty.
>
> > I see these royal? families lapping up the luxuries that came  from theft
> > and murder..  the word protection keeps popping up it seems that the
> > protection needed was from the people claiming to be providing the
> > protection..  today  I see them strutting  around in the this stolen wealth
> > claiming that it is their inheritance.
>
> > It seems to me that if you accept the wealth that was stolen or produced
> > as a by product of stolen lands and wealth that you also inherit the moral
> > responsibility including the prison time.  including the life sentences and
> > the return of all the wealth..
>

> > On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:02 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> It sounds like a challenge fit for one of those legendary wise leaders
> >> who presents a challenge and distributes the loss according to just
> >> deserts. But I can't help but wonder what a just challenge would be for the
> >> plaintiff, and what type of arbitration would be sufficient. It is a puzzle
> >> Allan, is the theft held among one generation or multiple, what interests
> >> are held against it currently?
>
> >> On 6/2/2013 1:48 PM, Allan H wrote:
>
> >>> oops  I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen and has become
> >>> acceptable..  even when it is widely know the source is theft..
>

> >>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com <mailto:
> >>> allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >>>     how can money that was stolen be past down to the next
> >>>     generation,,  it seems that it becomes perfectly acceptable and
> >>>     the wealth is considered no longer acceptable.
>
> >>>     Yet if i buy a painting that was stolen still belongs to the
> >>>     family it was stolen from?  It seems it is applied selectively..
>
> >>>     --      (
> >>>       )
> >>>     |_D Allan
>
> >>>     Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >>>     Of course I talk to myself,
> >>>     Sometimes I need expert advice..
> >>>     --
> >>>     ---
> >>>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>     Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >>>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> >>>     send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou­ps.com>
> >>>     <mailto:minds-eye%**2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<minds-eye%252Bunsubscrib­e...@googlegroups.com>
> >>> **>.
>
> >>>     For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> >>> .
>

> >>> --
> >>>  (
> >>>   )
> >>> |_D Allan
>
> >>> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >>> Of course I talk to myself,
> >>> Sometimes I need expert advice..
> >>> --
>
> >>> ---
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> >>> an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou­ps.com>
> >>> .
> >>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> >>> .
>

> >> --
>
> >> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> >> email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou­ps.com>
> >> .
> >> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> >> .
>

> > --
> >  (
> >   )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > Of course I talk to myself,
> > Sometimes I need expert advice..
>
> --
>  (
>   )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,

[rigs]

I regard blind Justice two ways: to make judgments free from bias and
influence and to hide the tears that must flow watching human
behaviors.

> >>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.-Hide quoted text -
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Molly]

well said, Rigs. Very well said.

> > >>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.-Hidequoted text -

[archytas]

Honest toil never is the problem rigs. I wouldn't even take a spare
$1.6 million of my own near a casino. Gambling fascinates me on the
grounds I can't believe people are dumb enough to do it. I was
wondering what we'd get for our $1.6 million. Seems a lot to put at
risk for a view from the 36th floor. Are the high rollers so dumb
they fork out fees like this for a bit of fawning treatment, whores
and so on? I expect we'd find a little place round the corner. I
might be as adventurous as chicken fried rice or duck and pancake-
thingies washed down with a cold beer and warm saki. I don't travel
that far well these days and will be in jet-lagged moron phase for the
week.

There are no winning systems in gambling - unless you count the
bookmakers. I've been in a few casinos - generally sickening places -
and I do understand the pleasure of an odd flutter. I've been
fascinated by the false consciousness of it all for years - and also
the close link between the fee charged by slot-machines and many
financial services (25%). Many of the arbitrage dodges in finance are
attempts to take money like a tote bookmaker (they take no risk at
all). The idea is to get control of other people's money and rake off
fees. Bets are a zero-sum game, cancelling each other out - the money
is made from transaction fees. The stock market is much like this -
the idea of successful gamblers on it is a myth. Nothing beats random
stock picking and the funds that do best are the ones charging the
lowest fees (Bogle etc.)

So what would men who have got rich in China really be doing in the
bits of Macau casinos? Knowing the odds as they must do they really
gamble? Or is the place a whore-house that does money laundering?
And if you look at QE and the rest knowing how a tote book works you
might wonder why our governments have set one up for the banks.

On blind justice you are no doubt right, but if you are reading
Machiavelli you should work out what the status of fine things said in
public really are - which is not true mostly. In a little teasing
between friends, had you given me the $1.6 million I'd have taken it
to social services and asked them to help you. I mow my neighbour's
lawn and Sue takes another older neighbour shopping. Another
neighbour, seeing a couple of my roof tiles loose just fixed them.
He's up pointing the chimney now. I'll take their kids to the
fairground later. No money, no banks, no way for Ben Bernancke to
interfere. Do you know how much he has stolen from you to date?

> > > >>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.-Hidequotedtext -

[James]

If one gains a mistrust of ambition too well it can stifle their degrees
of movement. I want to read Frederick Douglass, I've tried before but
felt compromised when the inner fire posed a challenge to my discipline.
It wasn't the words on the page that lights my soul ablaze (if I may)
but the chains missing from the depiction of our lady. I know the beauty
Allan speaks of truth, but I dare not touch or mar it, for many she is
deaf and blind, for some a gasp of air while struggling with the
undertow, a crack in the world (ditto).

Then, all the emotion and time comes to naught if we don't choose. Wrong
choices for the right reasons doesn't a leader make, and where does
leadership come from if not that fire sometimes. A great crime it seems
is that many see and don't believe, feel and do nothing. Don't assume
I'm being "a" hypocrite, I am "The".

[Allan H]

it is extremely difficult to stay within guidelines..I am sure the guidelines of "Do no harm" is among the most difficult ans on the verge of impossibility..   the problem lies within meditation of the variations there of and how does one balance the center line without drifting from side to side

Hypocrite "No" not when a person is striving to accomplish the ideal

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Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
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[rigs]

I call those pancake thingies "Emperor's Pancakes"- I used to order
them all the time and even made them from scratch with dried tree
mushrooms and lily somethings- once, only.//Forget social services. I
am really ill with stress. Am dealing with building, labor and
industry, etc. This could turn into a proper mess. The new roofer will
come tomorrow instead as he had other calls today. I am just praying
the garage doesn;t have to be torn down. The guy who did the job was
social, all right. Thought I should be cruising about and wanted to
buy me a drink or a Pepsi- that's all this town needs is another
cruising grandmother! He waved my objections away with sexist remarks
about women never being satisfied, etc- all in a kind of humor, like
many men use. To be continued...//I stand behind people at the
supermarket who seem rapt to buy lottery tickets but I'm in that line
to buy cigarettes so I guess we're all nuts.

[rigs]

I think resentment is a basic cause of envy between the classes. But
some are smarter, industrious, creative, etc. You can't equalize those
qualities unless you re-do DNA or live in a society of robots. You
have a media that promotes a certain mode of success- mostly built on
wealth and possessions. You have fractured families due to the social
movements of the last century. Yet, I do see progress also.//I see "Do
no harm" as don't make matters worse through ignorance or arrogance.
Not sure the Ideal is a human possibility.

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> >>>>>>> Of course I talk to myself,
> >>>>>>> Sometimes I need expert advice..
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>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
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[Allan H]

I do not think it is resentment,,   I was raised to live life morally with out harming others,,  I personally do not like being ripped of by people whose extreme interpretation of morality  allow them to steal and harm others without apparent conscious then make all kinds of excuses blaming others for the poverty and harm they have created..

The moral guideline of "Do No Harm" is often violated justified by the comment it is legal..  a good example of Monsanto paying for a law to be passed so the can violate the morality of Do No harm by saying well it is legal and we have done nothing wrong.

The problem with these arguments is it seems  people are justifying their violations of morality by saying it is alright because it is not illegal.  To me if there is a commitment to morality which is required for the "Soul" to pass its exam of humanism ...   justifying immorality by it is legal..  well good luck on your spiritual development..  When you have to justify your view  well you need to carefully look at what you are justifying..

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[James]

I am not sure how anarchosyndicalism comes into play other than
recognizing the term and thinking Neil mentioned it recently (but memory
can be faulty) but am interested in a view of how biology plays a role
in the anarcho-capitalist's claim that we have no free market to qualify
a decentralized system of self-regulating economic exchange. It seems to
me that the libertarian view is almost what we've had so far, and
supposedly a market will arise from demand to service fair-play within
the industry like some shoot-em-up western. If somebody mentions
nationalizing BP I think, 'what would be the difference?' Aren't big oil
and governments already thick as thieves? People are supposed to vote
with their pocketbooks? China has the cleanest rivers, and the Tiananmen
square incident was a few disruptive students getting pushed around by
local mall-cops. That might be a joke Chomsky would appreciate.

When the means of production are held in common, and not on some
idealists notepad. Access to knowledge and information is universal, and
the technologies to deliver it truly ubiquitous then those terms may
hold some weight. The boundaries start to break down on blaming the
victim by regression and recursion until we are left with sterile
abstractions on par with 'god has a plan', which I would be sure he did
if the whole matter weren't such a conflict of interest that rests
solely on one's ability to implement His 'open framework' without the
aid of a consultant, wealth, or wizardly intelligent disposition.

I'm pondering the outcome of opening my knowledge and dedicating
resources to opening access to many people to very enabling technologies
and been asking myself whether this serves my duty to nature or merely
accelerates the means of further collapse... There has to be some other
way than ignorance, arrogance, and tormenting ourselves with the Tragedy
of Universals. You're talking tough nuts here Allan, somebody has to. :)

> <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > >>> I regard blind Justice two ways: to make judgments free from
> bias and
> > >>> influence and to hide the tears that must flow watching human
> > >>> behaviors.
> >
> > >>> On Jun 3, 12:53 am, James <ashkas...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > >>>>>> It sounds like a challenge fit for one of those legendary
> wise leaders
> > >>>>>> who presents a challenge and distributes the loss
> according to just
> > >>>>>> deserts. But I can't help but wonder what a just
> challenge would be
> > >>>>>> for
> > >>>>>> the plaintiff, and what type of arbitration would be
> sufficient. It
> > >>>>>> is a
> > >>>>>> puzzle Allan, is the theft held among one generation or
> multiple, what
> > >>>>>> interests are held against it currently?
> > >>>>>> On 6/2/2013 1:48 PM, Allan H wrote:
> >
> > >>>>>>> oops I mean the wealth is no longer considered stolen
> and has become
> > >>>>>>> acceptable.. even when it is widely know the source is
> theft..
> > >>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Allan H
> <allanh1...@gmail.com <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>

> > >>>>>>> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com

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> > >>>>>>> Of course I talk to myself,
> > >>>>>>> Sometimes I need expert advice..
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[rigs]

No- to your last question. But the independent roofer found 5
violations and will come back tomorrow when the city building
inspector is due. I guess Justice smiles once in a while though it
looks to be a "summer of the garage". I feel so relieved to have my
suspicions confirmed.// BTW moo shu pork uses wood fungus and tiger
lily threads- both come dried and are soaked back to "life".

On Jun 4, 10:47 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:

[James]

Heh, did you switch envy and resentment around Rigs? Kidding with you,
but you may be onto something. In my older years I've gotten a chance to
expand my acquaintanceships to include the more hawklike
peacocks/roosters and have noticed a parallel to the jugular glamor in
prestige of affluence. A repartite sqoundrel no doubt is the name I'd
know if I opened my mouth today, there were more banal terms for it more
appropriate than 'hypocrisy'. They were all meaningless to me anyways, I
can count on one hand a few times I said 'Hey!' with added pulp fiction
vernacular, a little humorous that it was the same notice in every
instance. My fiancee is the only one who knows me to have humor and I do
impressions of things she hears about or we see in movies while
explaining a little on where I'm from, that I hide at all other times
behind stoicism. Not to betray the strong and quiet, that's in there, he
just feels like laughing sometimes. They don't put the real funny stuff
on tv, it's really weak compared to reality and Chris Rock is tame
relying on racial shock (I consider him a half-funny ass, but I like the
movie Shrek). Like what a girl shouts across the auditorium holding
another's hair that drops everyone gasping for air in laughter
dispatching with whatever lunch was midswallow, or another one cussing
out a John who wanted credit all the way down the block, a teacher
flipping out on us. I felt bad for the teachers, even if they were
clueless. They were barking up the wrong tree when interviewing certain
troubled teens after Columbine, people would've done better to pull
their heads out of wherever. All my friends are survivalist, I grew up
around guns and black markets, played the heck out of Doom, the Jolly
Roger cookbook was toilet reading material but I enjoyed reading
philosophy, and any Popular Mechanics or science material I could find.
In terms of judgement it means nothing, but hearing people's thoughts is
very rewarding, including yours. I lost my point somewhere. If I find
it, I'm sure it will be very relevant to the classes. :p

Genetic inequality seems a faux pas but I think it has an influence on
developing skill and intelligence of sorts, and no doubt also in how one
meets the multitude of influences pushing the genes into activation and
adaptation. IMO the distribution of trait-wise acuity should be about
even, with the exception of cognitive and psychological disorders. It
seems certain emotional deficiencies can under the right circumstances
lead to successful outcomes (financially that is), but under others lead
to more apparent disaster. Cultural values and myth come into play for
sure in how that is levied. I'd take an arrogant industrialist any day
over a megalo-sociopath bent on vengeance but that doesn't mean I'll be
blind to the likelihood of equally or more dangerous consequences
because the former is enshrined. The brain seems highly adaptable too,
and in evolving processes timing seems a crucial element as we meet the
challenge of the day with whatever limitations we might have. Something
good/bad can happen to anyone, something amazing can come from anywhere.
What I get from this is that statistically speaking we should seek to
improve the likelihood of good outcomes in how we solve problems and
formulate a way forward to include the likelihood that whatever benefit
each may provide is realized within the whole of humanity. I know that
sounds a little like BS. ;-)


and I haven't heard it included in something more than confirmation
bias or to express futility.

[James]

I hope it doesn't sound like a straw man setup for anyone here, I'm just
weaving in and out, which I must say many here do a pretty good job of!
What I mean to say is hit me Gabby! :)

[archytas]

Better sing along with Ian Drury and hope she's not carrying a big
stick James! I'm a fan.

I still do most of our repairs rigs - mostly to avoid the kind of
problems you are having. I've moved too often to know people I can
trust.

I actually share rigs' concerns on what we might term the uniform
society. I don't see politics as very important in this as we really
have none - just economic ideology. Chomsky has a fair version of
anarchy. My own view is a thesis 'against time immemorial' - broadly
that we are stuck with non-modern ideologies, including ignorance of
our biology - in a crude sense I'd recommend a start in watch female
primates stalking their sexual 'victims' - a non-standard view of
female sexuality to say the least.

Our institutions are now very real problems - but this doesn't mean we
need to tear them down to get the truth out - the basis of the 'all
truth lies in the main destruction' slogan of anarchism. We are
missing something at rigs' 'do no harm' level - we either all count in
front of the law or it isn't worth spit kind of thing. Yet it's
deeper somehow.

My guess is our work ethic is wrong. The big fact here is
productivity and the lack of analysis of how much work needs doing by
humans. Money is ideological in this, as well as something we spend
on food etc. I'm not against hard work but I hate being ripped off
as per rigs' roof thing or the TARP/QE thing. The heraldry of our
times might well be Allan's 'golden calf rampant'. I don't think we
understand how little work there is to do or that wealth distribution
is out of order.

As an example, clever financial services we might describe as
'intercoursing the rehypothecated derivative repo' makes sense for the
first few people or companies doing it in terms of standard profit and
loss - but once everyone is at it you just have to pay for extra
chores or costs the performance entails. By the time everyone is
doing the complex stuff there is no competitive advantage in it - and
what we see is big companies stealing tax through the mechanisms - an
anti-competitive restrictive practice against small firms who can't do
offshore transfer pricing. We end up paying for a lot of financial
services we don't need - and the amount is vast.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

woke up this morning with a weird dream about people creating DNA to validate false wills..  was weird needed to get it out of my head,,

good workman are easier to verify over in England/Scotland than they are in the US..  

Money is necessary for everyday activity  giving a common exchange (also make it taxable)  where it develops into a problem is as Pope Francis put it "Money with out purpose".  when the sole purpose is to make more money  you have a problem.  When I was sailing I ran into a man who's dream was to to be a cruising sailor "living on a sailboat and wandering around"  His wife asked me to excuse his behavior,, telling me that was his dream,,  he sacrificed that dream because if he followed that the employees of the 17 ? could be bad memory? would lose their jobs. She referred to me as being one of his heroes..  I remember thinking that this man was a true hero because he was putting the welfare of others above his own pleasures..  to me this would be an excellent example of money with purpose.

Because money is stuffed in the stock market to make more money does not give it purpose,  or off shore to avoid paying ones share of taxes..  that does not give it money with purpose..  I do believe that money can have purpose not just for the purpose of creating more wealth following the Golden Calf ..

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[archytas]

Money making money is not a good thing Allan. I'd go for some very
radical changes. We should sequestrate the rich (they are actually
doing this to us now), bump up minimum wages and conditions and start
again. There is historical precedent - Graeber's 'Debt; the first
5000 years' gives some clues, as does Steve Keen's economics. I'd go
for a salary and wealth cap too. It strikes me we are too mean with
everything and yet entirely profligate on matters that hurt the planet
or people with no power.

It turns out the Romans had concrete that is more durable than modern
stuff and uses a lot less energy in production (concrete contributes
7% of CO2 through cement production). We are slow learners!

> ...
>
> read more »

[rigs]

Money losing money is where we are at with our debt and interest.//
People have a right to invest.// A highly centralized government
creates a bureaucracy of paper shufflers attempting to manage an
economy and other people's money, property and civil rights.

> > read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

the government and stock market are two different worlds..

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[rigs]

They are very inter-related, Allan. So are property right-of-ways
(railroads) and eminent domain and control of resources. The
regulations and laws are set by legislators and presidential decree.

You would not believe the drama of this garage roof but it's coming
off and being redone if I have to skin it myself!

[Allan H]

railroad right of ways..  a way for railroads to steal a mans property..  though it had value at the time.. when done with it in stead of returning it to the person it was stolen from they sold it and kept the mineral rights..  and can you believe the promotion and bribery the railroads did to get those laws enacted..  and railroads are not owned by the people but private companies..  and bribery was and still is a common practice then and  is still now especially in the US

Sorry Rigsy I am not coming back to the US to fix your roof  our crew it totally retired..  lol

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[Allan H]

PS  good roofers are hard to find..

[archytas]

I think rigs has the paper-shuffling aspect of money-loss right. It
doesn't matter much whether this bureaucracy is Soviet Paradise or
Corporate in form. A recent Keiser Report gets to the issues -
http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/episode-455-407/ - classic quotes
concern that the key thing with the American Dream is that you have to
be asleep to believe it and that you could once pay your way through
college with a part-time minimum wage job and now you'd have to do 50
hours a week. That higher education should cost more in today's
technological age than in the recent past is ludicrous - teaching
costs should be down.

On 8 June, 08:54, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> PS  good roofers are hard to find..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > railroad right of ways..  a way for railroads to steal a mans property..
> >  though it had value at the time.. when done with it in stead of returning
> > it to the person it was stolen from they sold it and kept the mineral
> > rights..  and can you believe the promotion and bribery the railroads did
> > to get those laws enacted..  and railroads are not owned by the people but
> > private companies..  and bribery was and still is a common practice then
> > and  is still now especially in the US
>
> > Sorry Rigsy I am not coming back to the US to fix your roof  our crew it
> > totally retired..  lol
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

I think far to many people went for the soft degrees as opposed to the chemical  engineering  style of degree..  so these other degree people are charging  excessive rates so the schools are trying to get their share to stay in business,, and the cost of professors went up dramatically as it should have so these cost have to be covered as the taxes are not covering the needed funds.. mainly because of Tax avoidance... and selfishness

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[James]

Living costs should be down, I wonder what the impacts across the board
are to support the financial sector's growth. We are supposed to be
transitioning to a knowledge economy while boxed into the old Prussian
model of education but I hear Finland is getting good results. Public
education in China is suffering while their govt wages production wars
to underbid. The older generation's mantra seems to be 'people get what
they deserve, to hell with the rest.' Is the depression supposed to slow
down the train? Or allow further consolidation of interests to profiteer
from working people in a desperate situation while govt sells out on a
fire-sale. Somebody other than the teachers is getting paid. My feelings
on Chicago are getting a bit more mixed..

>> read more �

[Allan H]

Living cost down?  what a dream..  living cost has gone up five fold.. over here but as usual  there is denial denial and more denial..  I think the place to follow might be Ice Land where the threw a lot of top bankers and politician in prison..  then started over..   there economy is doing good.

Actually the losses should be laid on the shoulders of those that created the debt and problems to start with as they are the very ones that in reality have caused the problems, but as usual  you will get the denial, denial and more denial  as they go off to rape the public one more time for old times sake..

read more »

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[archytas]

Well, the cost of degree education should have come down because we no
longer need the classroom to disseminate knowledge and in principle it
should be free to air or available electronically as small cost.
University teaching wages have fallen. Yet costs to consumers have
risen sharply.
Banking has seen an electronic revolution too yet has also spiraled
its costs up.
Current money problems are mainly to do with financialisation - the
creation of a vast empire of money transactions that satisfy demands
for returns of about 25% on investment that can't be made in the
general model of fairly competitive capitalism. The sources of this
25% return have been:
1. Looting mostly third world countries
2. Money laundering
3. Tax theft
4. Various Ponzi bubbles involving hiking asset prices
5. Global wage arbitrage on worker salaries
6. Thefts from pension schemes and the future (various accounting
dodges including 24 hour profit and loss)
7. Lending money intending to foreclose
8. Theft from tax payers through TARP/QE/Derivatives

This list goes on and money in this financial bubble is probably now
seeking to transfer into the real economy through asset and land
grabs. There are a lot of papers on this - you could start here
http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/

This stuff is post-autistic economics. I take the view there is a war
against democracy going on and we should stand up and be counted, even
if we are old enough to hope we can pass it by through shuffling off
the mortal coil.

> >>http://rt.com/shows/keiser-**report/episode-455-407/<http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/episode-455-407/>- classic quotes

> ...
>
> read more »

[archytas]

It was recognised in Athens and Sparta ten centuries ago before the
birth of Christ that one of the most vital prerogatives of the State
was the sole right to issue money. How curious that the unique quality
of this prerogative is only now being rediscovered. The “money power”
which has been able to overshadow ostensibly responsible government,
is not the power of the merely ultra-rich, but is nothing more nor
less than a new technique designed to create and destroy money by
adding and withdrawing figures in bank ledgers, without the slightest
concern for the interests of the community or the real rôle that money
ought to perform therein… To allow it to become a source of revenues
to private issuers is to create, first, a secret and illicit arm of
the government and, last, a rival power strong enough ultimately to
overthrow all other forms of government.

This from 1934 and Fred Soddy - a chemist. Money has become
government.

On 9 June, 21:27, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, the cost of degree education should have come down because we no
> longer need the classroom to disseminate knowledge and in principle it
> should be free to air or available electronically as small cost.
> University teaching wages have fallen.  Yet costs to consumers have
> risen sharply.
> Banking has seen an electronic revolution too  yet has also spiraled
> its costs up.
> Current money problems are mainly to do with financialisation - the
> creation of a vast empire of money transactions that satisfy demands
> for returns of about 25% on investment that can't be made in the
> general model of fairly competitive capitalism.  The sources of this
> 25% return have been:
> 1. Looting mostly third world countries
> 2. Money laundering
> 3. Tax theft
> 4. Various  Ponzi bubbles involving hiking asset prices
> 5. Global wage arbitrage on worker salaries
> 6. Thefts from pension schemes and the future (various accounting
> dodges including 24 hour profit and loss)
> 7. Lending money intending to foreclose
> 8. Theft from tax payers through TARP/QE/Derivatives
>
> This list goes on and money in this financial bubble is probably now
> seeking to transfer into the real economy through asset and land

> grabs.  There are a lot of papers on this - you could start herehttp://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/

> ...
>
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[Allan H]

the government has the sole power to issue money..    well that is a lark,,  i seldom touch currency any more, I do 99% via my bank card..  in reality they are issuing my currency..

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[Molly]

Money has really lost personal meaning for me as I don't much know
what to do with it. All avenues are manipulated, although I still
have to make it and spend it and keep it. finding ways to do that and
keep it out of the hands of the bwankers is no small task. Luckily, I
don't have enough to really be concerned about. CitiMortgage finally
foreclosed on my brother's house after two and a half years of
litigation (theirs) no communication to me except the process server
(first at my door and then to my attorney). It was all dehumanized and
ruthless and they ended up buying it themselves when it went up for
auction for the worth of my brother's outstanding note. My guess is
that this process allowed them to collect enough money from the
federal government to make it worth their while and then some.

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[Allan H]

the pack of wolves with out moral conscious.. I can not help but wonder if that hype of person falls under the category of worshipers of the Golden Calf..   worse yet there is nothing I can do to help you..

> ...
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[Molly]

I've cut my losses. 5K (attorney fee) and two years later, the bank
has the house and my credit (and family's credit) rating is in tact.
Life is challenging.

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[Allan H]

lawyers     ,,  actually I feel sorry for them as their have set them up for severe spiritual difficulties..

> ...
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[Molly]

Quite possible. But this one was a god send, as she first helped me
get a power of attorney when my brother's kidneys failed so that I
could keep up with his bills and keep the house on the market.
Trouble was, it was right after the burst of the housing bubble so we
couldn't sell the house. She was actually a real estate attorney, and
the power of attorney documents were really outside of her area.
Interestingly enough, she is licensed in both Illinois and Michigan,
so later accepting foreclosure documents from the process server
addressed to my home in MI was not a problem. Funny how things work
out. Synchronicity! I would have been hard pressed to find an
attorney licensed in both states, but one just appeared at the right
time! there are big problems with the legal system and bwankers -
that is for sure. Life goes on.

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[archytas]

Years ago (80s) we were working on expert systems that would replace
much professional pen-pushing. We weren't much good at this then,
forever trying to make our programs more complex. I got the
impression most of my co-workers couldn't get past naive
interpretations of professional work as honest. Compared with today
the hardware was crap and compilers much less good at removing
programming bugs. We approach a time when we can all program in a
natural language that compilers can handle. There a various versions
of IBM's Watson about that might allow self-diagnosis and treatment
across the preserves of the professionals. I see some hope that we
will change to an economy based more on embodied knowledge and
transparent money.
We actually have the technology - but there are many class-war
roadblocks and privacy issues involved. We went through Molly's
experience, though in much more favourable circumstances (an
inheritance) - we took a £60K hit on my cousin's house and the probate
fees were scary with inheritance tax levied on the estate, not what we
got individually. We seem to blanch at real wealth taxes and re-
distribution (especially personally!). We probably approach a time in
which we either collapse financial money (via debt jubilee) or end up
renting what we thought we had back from the rich - though quite where
the wage income is supposed to come from I can't see unless we change.

I don't think any of this has to do with the welfare state or people
living longer - though pensions were originally promised at 70 when
workers died at 48 (relevant but discounted by massive productivity
increases). Our money system hasn't caught up with the sea change of
modernity. University College London has a database on payouts to
slavers to compensate them after abolition (abolition in 1807, but law
only in 1833 freeing only those under 6 and apprenticing the rest
until 1840 - 40 and a half hours a week for board and lodging). The
payouts to slavers were massive (40% of the Treasury budget) - slaves
got nothing. The money can be traced to such noble people as Cameron
and similar today. I think much of today's argument (often called
economics) is no better than this kind of privileged evil. I'd
suggest one aspect of money today is to force work out of those
without it by those with it - slavery or serfdom. I think 70% of this
'work' is actually unnecessary.

There are loads of instances in history where we had to kick over the
tables of existing accounting systems and I think we are in such an
age now. The vile right want to harness Allan and rigs back to a
plough, probably taking any property off them. This is a nonsense in
a time in which 2% of the population can produce all our food. An
older oldie passed me last night when I was walking Maxwell the
denture slayer. He was picking litter from the nature park. There is
plenty of stuff to do - but we can't even organise work for our
young. Money is the root of this social evil.

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[Allan H]

I ran across one her name was Sandy,,  those attorneys are a rare breed..  welll worth being admired..  i know a couple of other ones but they are few and far between

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[Molly]

I suspect your right about kicking over the tables. Yet wonder
whether humanity is capable, or whether it only comes with the
recognition of spirit, whether Christ, Brahman, doodah or any other
name given. I often go back to a comment Francis made a long time ago
about the two times that Jesus was angry in the bible. One when he
overturned the tables of the money changers in the temple, and two
when he was angry at the fig tree, and told it that "Let no fruit grow
on thee henceforward for ever." I see these stories as diagrams for
living. Money changing systems may remain human. Our identity with
them can change. The "fruit" we eat, from the tree of life instead of
the tree of knowledge. An easier view to adapt when life is good.
Experience has a way of challenging our inner environment, and
presenting opportunities to trust.

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[Allan H]

understand,,    was wondering if we could mount face book campaign to recover your brothers property..   you let me know what to post and I will post it and I am sure others of your friends will also do the same..  it would not look good if you did it but we are not so constrained 

There is so much power and energy in the realm of the soul or God that it is scary... fortunately it is available to only a few.. well that is not quit true but there are reasons why it does not happen

> ...
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[Molly]

Your support is much appreciated Allan.  My brother passed away two years ago, and right afterward, I tried to contact the bank to give the house back to them, as he did not leave it to anyone, and as is proper to do under Illinois state law.  The bwankers had other ideas, and new methods given to them after the housing bust apparently.  I imagine they got plenty of money from the feds under the new foreclosure laws, and that two year period and multiple court appearances were designed to get them as much federal money as possible.  These are the times.  I did a happy dance when it was over.  I also closed all my accounts with the major banks and paid off all debt, so the bwankers will be getting less from me from now on.

I really did not mind settling my brother's estate because promising to do so gave him peace of mind.  But while I am complaining, I will say that the other major pain in the rear came from fraudulent medical bills that came pouring in.  After awhile, I had the response down to a science.  I made one call, sent one letter, sent a follow up letter with a copy of the first letter attached and cc'd all of the medical oversight boards possible.  Seems there are doctors and medical practitioners that have a racket charging families for medical services after people die.  I had to respond, because in trying to unload the house and filing the will, I signed affidavits that claimed he had no outstanding debt or liens.  The process took awhile.  And I would do it again for him in a heartbeat.  I found it interesting that the unscrupulous aspect of humanity came rushing in after he passed, like predators looking for vulnerabilities. I'm Irish - so they all met their match!

[Allan H]

I forgot your brother passed on..  time seems to go so quickly..  Ii notice it in my pills, my wife sets them up by the week and it seems it is so fast  and yet the days seem so long.  as long as it what you wanted,,  I suspect it is the bank not wanting it back hoping you would take it,,  problem selling houses..  uncooperative than new laws

oh well shows how little I know  or remember..