Thank you and questions

[jennifer kurtz]

I rarely (if ever) have posted to this group.  However, I have read every post since I joined and have taken volumes of notes.  I need to say thank you to each of you for your contributions to my son's education.  He has read your posts as he's gotten older and is so thrilled that there are others who love math and thinking as much as he does. You all are such a deep source of information and I will be forever grateful to this group for allowing me to find new concepts and ideas to introduce to my son's daily world.

He just turned 14 and is still passionate about math.  He started his love of all things mathy when he discovered Daud Sutton's book on Platonic and Archimedean solids when he was 4--he wore out 2 copies.  He loves probability, number theory, infinities, 4d space, and pretty much whatever math he finds.  He adores James Grimes and Numberphile.  He loves The Teaching Company's math courses and loves their lecture series about how math and music relate.  He loves the Art of Problem Solving books. 

He also plays piano and loves music theory.  He plays Debussy's Sunken Cathedral and Ginestera's Danzas Argentinas.  He will start a Grieg piece next and has started analyzing Liszt's Sonata in b minor on paper. 

He loves philosophy and logic.  He and his piano teacher have this ongoing conversation about Descartes and Derrida and how the process helps create the meaning....the piano teacher about passed out when she commented on Derrida the first time and my son knew who he was.  He just switched to her and it is a perfect fit.

My question is about the math and music connection and if you (collective ;-) have any suggestions about what might interest him next?  You have been so instrumental in helping me find information that challenges him and makes him excited about his future.  What about books on philosophy and how it relates to math and music?  Should he be learning to program?  He keeps asking what he can do with his math, music, philosophy when he gets older and needs to earn a living.  I know he'll find his way, but it would be nice to be able to give him ideas about the paths that are available.  Any advice you wish someone would have offered you at 14? 

  

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. 

Peace~ Jenn Kurtz

(sorry to have rambled)

I

[kirby urner]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:21 AM, 'jennifer kurtz' via MathFuture <mathf...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. 

Peace~ Jenn Kurtz

I'll be interested in what others have to say.  I had some piano lessons at about your son's age, actually older, more high school age, but I never got at all good at it.  I'm jealous of those who are.  We still lived in the Philippines at the time, very humid, and the piano went out of tune easily (that might be my excuse for giving up too easily).

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2015/07/animusic-2-movie-review.html

Kirby

 

[Peter Farrell]

Hi, Jenn,

Sounds like a great kid. I've tutored a lot of homeschooled kids in math and it always helps to be able to link something to their interests. His interest in music might help in introducing a math topic like sine waves. If he saw the waves produced by an instrument graphed on (free) software like Audacity he might be motivated to find out about amplitude, frequency and so on. 

I'm biased, but I think starting to code at his age would be a great idea. In creating fun, visual stuff like computer graphics, everything is a number, so math concepts can be introduced as tools to help draw stuff. I'm a Python fan and there are even ways to create sounds using code, so your son might find something to really spark his interest.

It seems like he's got a great foundation in math and philosophy already.

Peter Farrell

Hacking Math Class (book)

California

[jennifer kurtz]

Kirby~

Thanks for reminding our family of animusic.  We had totally forgotten about that 6 months where that is all he watched on youtube! 

We live in SC where the humidity is high (not as high as the Philippines!) and if we open our windows too often we will have to call the tuner out more than once a year.  The piano players in the house (who have really great ears) can hear the change in the piano when the temperature and/or humidity changes dramatically.  Of course, we could get an electric or hybrid piano but both kids balk at the idea of that.  

Peace~ Jenn
 

---

From: kirby urner <kirby...@gmail.com>
To: mathf...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Math Future] Thank you and questions

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MathFuture" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to mathfuture+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to mathf...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mathfuture.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[jennifer kurtz]

Peter~

We certainly think he's a great kid ;-) 

He has never shown any interest in learning to code.  I think you have a great idea about getting him interested via music....why didn't I think of that?  I'll start researching. 

I will share your email and encourage him to start looking at Audacity.

Any chance that you might move to SC?  ;-)  Your classes sound amazing.

I struggle because I am not a math person and I am not a computer person.  I love math concepts and have learned right beside my kids, but I don't have a strong background in math. 

We homeschool and my goal has always been for our journey to be child led and I would be the research assistant and feed their interests.  It has been an amazing journey so far and I can't wait to find out where it takes us.

Thanks for you suggestions

Peace~ Jenn

---

From: Peter Farrell <peterfa...@gmail.com>
To: MathFuture <mathf...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: jenniyo...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:18 PM
Subject: [Math Future] Re: Thank you and questions

[Edward Cherlin]

I would be interested in talking to you and your son. I started out as
a mathematician, and got a degree in Mathematics and Philosophy. There
is a great deal that I could say about all that, but I will start with
the specific question you asked.

The connection between music and math begins with Pythagoras. He
discovered the relation between the length of a string and its
fundamental frequency, and fractions of that length and overtones.
There are many other connections in terms of the structure of scales,
chords, harmony, and counterpoint up to the discovery of well-tempered
and equal-tempered scales in the time of Bach, and other developments
since then. In non-Western musics these relationships are understood
differently.

The big connection now is through computer music. I have worked with
programmers and musicians, most notably Stanley Jordan, on the
question of teaching this connection. He graduated from the Princeton
Computer Music program, and has used computers to compose some of the
background material for his guitar playing.

We can discuss a variety of resources and pathways into these subjects
if you would like to write to me offline. Has your son seen the
science fiction collection Fantasia Mathematica, edited by Clifton
Fadiman? Or the novel White Light, by Rudy Rucker, which gets into all
of the infinities? How about On Numbers and Games, by John Horton
Conway, on a new construction of infinities and infinitesimals and
their extension to games? It was applied to a wide range of games in
Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays, by Berlekamp, Conway, and
Guy, and an extensive literature that followed from it.

On Thu, November 12, 2015 8:21 am, 'jennifer kurtz' via MathFuture wrote:
> I rarely (if ever) have posted to this group. However, I have read
> every post since I joined and have taken volumes of notes. I need to say
> thank you to each of you for your contributions to my son's education.Â

> He has read your posts as he's gotten older and is so thrilled that there

> are others who love math and thinking as much as he does. You all are

> such a deep source of information and I will be forever grateful to this
> group for allowing me to find new concepts and ideas to introduce to my
> son's daily world.
>

> He just turned 14 and is still passionate about math. He started his

> love of all things mathy when he discovered Daud Sutton's book on Platonic

> and Archimedean solids when he was 4--he wore out 2 copies. He loves
> probability, number theory, infinities, 4d space, and pretty much
> whatever math he finds. He adores James Grimes and Numberphile. He

> loves The Teaching Company's math courses and loves their lecture series

> about how math and music relate. He loves the Art of Problem Solving
> books.Â
> He also plays piano and loves music theory. He plays Debussy's Sunken
> Cathedral and Ginestera's Danzas Argentinas. He will start a Grieg piece
> next and has started analyzing Liszt's Sonata in b minor on paper.Â
> He loves philosophy and logic. He and his piano teacher have this

> ongoing conversation about Descartes and Derrida and how the process helps
> create the meaning....the piano teacher about passed out when she

> commented on Derrida the first time and my son knew who he was. He

> just switched to her and it is a perfect fit.
>
> My question is about the math and music connection and if you (collective

> ;-) have any suggestions about what might interest him next? You have

> been so instrumental in helping me find information that challenges him

> and makes him excited about his future. What about books on philosophy
> and how it relates to math and music? Should he be learning to
> program? He keeps asking what he can do with his math, music, philosophy
> when he gets older and needs to earn a living. I know he'll find his

> way, but it would be nice to be able to give him ideas about the paths

> that are available. Any advice you wish someone would have offered you
> at 14?   Thanks in advance for any suggestions.Â

>
> Peace~ Jenn Kurtz
> (sorry to have rambled)I

--
Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج) Cherlin
Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks

[kirby urner]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Edward Cherlin <eche...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would be interested in talking to you and your son. I started out as
a mathematician, and got a degree in Mathematics and Philosophy. There
is a great deal that I could say about all that, but I will start with
the specific question you asked.

The connection between music and math begins with Pythagoras. 

Although I always had a hard time understanding Donald Duck, this cartoon, shown during some all-school assembly in our elementary school, made a lasting impression.

.This Youtube just excerpts the Pythagorean part:

https://youtu.be/iEVGQKwKeCc

That must have been 2nd grade as I remember this was at Markham, and I was out of the country by 3rd

I'm into the intersection of mathematics and animation (mathy cartoons). Even just this animation about the International Mathematical Union is fun:

https://youtu.be/1VXDejQcAWY

Not very musical though.

Still on the topic of formative influences on my as a youngster:  this Time-Life series book also made a big impression on me.  

http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-David-Bergamini/dp/B0007G5WYG

I'm sure there are many like it that seem more up to date.  If willing to put up with talking heads...

https://youtu.be/ehmXCaJ8-Ts  (looked promising, continues with Pythagoras & music -- anthropology is always close by, making STEM into STEAM).

Kirby

 

[jennifer kurtz]

Edward~

Thank you.  I sent you a message off the list.  

Peace~ Jenn
 

---

From: Edward Cherlin <eche...@gmail.com>
To: mathf...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:35 AM

Subject: Re: [Math Future] Thank you and questions

[jennifer kurtz]

Kirby~

My additions are highlighted.  We appreciate you sharing part of your story/path with us.

Peace~ Jenn
 

---

From: kirby urner kirby...@gmail.com

 

Although I always had a hard time understanding Donald Duck, this cartoon, shown during some all-school assembly in our elementary school, made a lasting impression.

.This Youtube just excerpts the Pythagorean part:

https://youtu.be/iEVGQKwKeCc

Donald in Mathmagic Land is a favorite in our house and fun to watch as an adult.  So is Newton in a Bottle--we have kept a VHS player just so we can periodically revisit . 

That must have been 2nd grade as I remember this was at Markham, and I was out of the country by 3rd

I'm into the intersection of mathematics and animation (mathy cartoons). Even just this animation about the International Mathematical Union is fun:

https://youtu.be/1VXDejQcAWY

Not very musical though.

Perfect!  Animated math really connects with my son.  He has spent hours watching Platonic Solid Rock (Dan Radin) and when he was younger watching the Geometry of Circles from Sesame Street by Phil Glass. 

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye24b3ebHcw

 https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=phil+glass+sesame+street&fr=ush-mailn_02&fr2=p%3Aml%2Cm%3Asb

My daughter just watched this and you are now her favorite person (right after Vi Hart ;-)  You have wonderful timing....my daughter's been obsessed with Borromean rings for about 2 weeks now and the house is filling up with her creations.  Her favorite is creating the rings out of Mobius strips and then cutting the strips in 1/2 or along the edge and see what happens.  She now has been constructing octahedrons out of polydron pieces and zome and using rubber bands to visualize the process. She'll be down this rabbit hole for a bit ;-)

Still on the topic of formative influences on my as a youngster:  this Time-Life series book also made a big impression on me.  

http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-David-Bergamini/dp/B0007G5WYG

I'm sure there are many like it that seem more up to date.  If willing to put up with talking heads...

I just ordered this and am excited to share it with the kids... We have a few other books from this time period--String, Straightedge and shadow by Diggins and The Adventure of Geometry by Ravielli.  Another favorite (not from the same era) is A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe--Schneider.

http://www.amazon.com/String-Straightedge-Shadow-Story-Geometry/dp/1938210093/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447424620&sr=8-1&keywords=string+straightedge+and+shadow

http://www.amazon.com/Adventure-Geometry-Anthony-Ravielli/dp/B000K3PPZ2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1447424558&sr=8-5&keywords=adventures+in+geometry

https://youtu.be/ehmXCaJ8-Ts  (looked promising, continues with Pythagoras & music -- anthropology is always close by, making STEM into STEAM).

We are certainly attempting to create STEAM on our journey.  The (very tongue-in-cheek) name of our home school is The Academy for Consilience (with a huge nod towards E.O. Wilson).  Few in our homeschool community understand ;-)  Showing how everything is connected from the micro to the macro is an ongoing conversation.  Thank you for helping me add more material to our dialog.

[Mike South]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 7:21 AM, 'jennifer kurtz' via MathFuture <mathf...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

My question is about the math and music connection and if you (collective ;-) have any suggestions about what might interest him next?  You have been so instrumental in helping me find information that challenges him and makes him excited about his future.  What about books on philosophy and how it relates to math and music?  Should he be learning to program?  He keeps asking what he can do with his math, music, philosophy when he gets older and needs to earn a living.  I know he'll find his way, but it would be nice to be able to give him ideas about the paths that are available.  Any advice you wish someone would have offered you at 14? 

Music and math are both critical components of video games.

The amount of relevant material available to an internet-connected autodidact these days is nothing short of phenomenally incredibly amazing.  I might be under-hyping that a little.

I would recommend the following: (you can always get a day into it and recognize that this was some random person on the internet and why did I even listen, so it's not too much of a big deal if I'm wrong):

(1) Get Unity ( unity3d.com )

(2) When you start it up, it will offer to show you videos of how to use it.  Do this.  Probably by...

(3) ...stepping through the tutorial process of making a 3d game (the "Roll-a-ball tutorial" annotated "start here" on https://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials )

(4) Deploy the game to another machine or phone or tablet or whatever--just to convince yourself that you are really making a thing you could distribute

From here, the plan diverges wildly.  For example:

(5) Alter the roll-a-ball tutorial so that instead of collecting the blocks, the ball is hitting things that make musical notes.  Can you make an instrument that is played by rolling the ball around?  I don't know if that is even possible, with the timing that would be required.  Maybe no one does.  Maybe no one has ever tried that.  Doesn't matter, really, if it interests you, it's research! Try to figure out a way to arrange the "tone targets" on the board in such a way that a skilled player can roll the ball around and play a tune.  Put a simple tune in there and challenge the player to play it within a certain tolerance of tempo and maybe three lives that you lose one of each time you hit a wrong note.

or

(5) Once upon a time I downloaded some awesome software where you would have a plot of the Mandelbrot Set, and you could draw a line on it with the mouse, and the software would travel down the line, emitting a different note (I think a harp string) for each color it encountered.  It was beautiful.  This is around 20 years ago, it was running in X/window on a Silicon Graphics Indigo.  I doubt very many people ever saw it.  You could make a combination Mandelbrot Set browser/listener for people's phones/tablets.

or

(5) Modify the rollerball game by adding algorithmic music.  So, rather than a loop of music that will drive people crazy, implement music that is automatically generated and varied over time.  Maybe make it so that the algorithm that generates the music responds to the game input, so if they roll left it gets tweaked somehow and if they speed up it increases the tempo or...whatever.

If he has questions about any of what I said you can ask on list and/or contact me.  msouth at gmail.

mike

[kirby urner]

Greeting Jenn --

I'd never seen Platonic Solid Rock by Dan Radin.  Fun.

Note here at 1:36 mas o meno where we get the standard schoolish math re Dimension, that his line segments (supposedly 1D) are most definitely "lumps" i.e. they have all the height, width and depth one could ask for, even as incorporeal narrator informs us otherwise.
 


​

That's typical in Platonic cartoons:  they say "you will never see a point" even as they make the point (pile of chalk dust, usually).  Kids squirm uncomfortably and some try to mount some resistance, only to end up in the corner, dunce hat on, an example to others who dare question authority.

"Points are so small they're smaller than the tiniest atom" (quoting some random math teacher) -- yeah, as if they existed at all (to say they're Platonic means they're "pre-frequency" as we Martians say i.e. they have no energetic content whatsoever).

With Karl Menger we get our "geometry of lumps" and do not distinguish line-shapes, point-shapes and polyhedron-shapes on the basis of their being "depth only" or "just depth but no width".  No, they're all 4D lumps, so-named because the tetrahedron broadcasts 4ness and is therefore the canonical representative of Volume (i.e. pre-frequency space).

I'm into the intersection of mathematics and animation (mathy cartoons). Even just this animation about the International Mathematical Union is fun:

https://youtu.be/1VXDejQcAWY

Note that I am not the creator of the above. 

I like it in part because the IMU explicitly credits Buckminster Fuller as a "popularizer" of his "Jitterbug Transformation", which is this twist-contraction of a cuboctahedron into an icosahedron then octahedron. 

The citation is somewhat ironic as standard practice in math circles is to dismiss Buckminster Fuller as a "popularizer" of X and Y without ever coming to grips with Martian Math. 

I blame the philosophy department as union mathematicians are by training clueless about much beyond math (per job description) whereas we philo types are supposed to stay more up to date on a broad range of disciplines.

What I've been into with animations is something I invented which I've called Hypertoons. 

A hypertoon is something you can picture in your mind as a spaghetti ball "graph" i.e. a tangle of "noodles" that meetup at shared Nodes or Vertexes which I call "key frames" (not sure about "meat balls" -- I'll consider it).

The noodle is a "scenario" meaning a smooth animated transformation or, really, any storyline, that gets us from from Node Y to Node Z. 

When arriving at a Nodes (or "switch point"), the "player head" automatically chooses another noodle (scenario) without pause, so the viewer is seeing continuous action throughout.

But over time with obvious repetition, because the play head is "wandering" in this spaghetti ball, playing scenarios at random in a continuous feed (streaming). 

These Hypertoons live in a science fictional rackspace at the back end of my Coffee Shops Network.  On the front end, LCDs share these "reveries" or "anime" in the background as home schoolers study in the foreground.

I've been able to do some rudimentary hypertoons using Visual Python.  In the Youtube below, you'll see some of the same things happening over and over.  I actually have two playheads going at the same time, exploring the same "spaghetti monster".  Short.  No sound.

https://youtu.be/7Qzd0Uw-HCM

Here's another one with just one thread, starts showing demo at about 2 mins, with me blathering during the first 2 mins:

https://youtu.be/KZ3MFMF6LPg 

It'd be fun to make a hypertoon with live action characters.  All you need are those smooth segue keyframes, where any number of things might happen, but only one of them does.

Kirby

[Feldon, Fred]

Looking for an awesome video on math and music? Look no further. A few years ago I attended this presentation from a lecture series at the University of California Irvine on the subject. Enjoy!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ldjgjIyvzc

 

"Science Sings the Blues"  --  Mathematics and music are a match made in heaven. Even the most unschooled rock musician uses more mathematics than he or she realizes. This talk will survey interesting connections between mathematics and music, including trigonometric identities and tunings, small fractions and music intervals, circular seating arrangements, scales and rhythm guitar, derivation of the blues and graph colorings, and the musical art of being ambiguous (or not).

 

Jason I. Brown is a professor in the Department of Mathematics and Statistics at Dalhousie University. His work that used mathematics to uncover mysteries surrounding the music of the Beatles has garnered worldwide attention. His new book, "Our Days Are Numbered" explains how mathematics can make like not only more interesting and meaningful, but all of us more creative. Dr. Brown is accompanied by Jacob Wendt, Anthony Shadduk, and Duane Broberg.

 

 

Fred Feldon
Professor of Mathematics
Coastline Community College
Fountain Valley, CA 92708

"It doesn't matter if my classroom is a little rectangle in a building or a little rectangle above my keyboard. Doors are rectangles. Rectangles are portals. We walk through." Kathi Inman Berens

---

From: mathf...@googlegroups.com [mathf...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Mike South [mso...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 6:40 AM
To: mathf...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Math Future] Thank you and questions

[jennifer kurtz]

Mike~

Thank you!  The music and video game connection is wonderful.  My son really loves Mario games and has the ability to take what he listens to and then reproduce it on the piano--he's created many of his own arrangements of the video game music from the games he plays.  The Mario franchise and the Kirby franchise are 2 of his favorites.  Both can be played straight classical or jazzy.  One of my friends (proving Mario has aged well) will sit and turn off the music to her DS and Reed will play the level music, boss music, etc.    

I've passed on all the information and can't wait to see where he takes it.   His piano teacher has said that if Mozart was born into today's technology he'd be making a fortune on video game music ;-)

Glad you liked my cheesy "instrumental." 

Peace~ Jenn

 

---

From: Mike South <mso...@gmail.com>
To: mathf...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:40 AM

Subject: Re: [Math Future] Thank you and questions

[jennifer kurtz]

Thank you!

I have added the book onto my wish list.  I watched the video and quite enjoyed it.  I can't wait to share with my son.  He will enjoy it a great deal.

Peace~ Jenn
 

---

From: "Feldon, Fred" <ffe...@coastline.edu>
To: "mathf...@googlegroups.com" <mathf...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Math Future] Thank you and questions

[Maria Droujkova]

Jenn,

Thank you for sharing your story, and for an excellent question.

Think in terms of people, rather than books. Help your son comment on blogs and connect with people at online webinars, courses, and other events, as well as social media. For music and other arts, I would start with people who gather around Bridges, the math art conference: http://www.bridgesmathart.org/

Many of them have blogs, Flickr accounts, Twitter and Facebook pages, web pages and so on, so you can reach out to them. I don't know if people in this thread will have time for that - some probably will - but you can always ask if your son can Skype or Google Hangout for a live conversation. Voice and face is usually the best; text can't replace you!

At 14, when I was in love with math and science but naive about it all, I wish people told me: "Maria, interface with caring individuals, not organizations!" 

Cheers,
Dr. Maria Droujkova

NaturalMath.com

-- .- - ....

[kirby urner]

Echoing Maria, I agree the Bridges Conference is a good place to start.  My colleague Koski has been to a few and plans to attend the next one in Finland (it helps that he's part Finnish).  I tried to get a paper accepted earlier this year, for the Bridges in Baltimore but "Citations are to Wikipedia pages, or peculiarly to the author's undergraduate philosophy thesis on Wittgenstein" were among reasons for rejection.  I don't think the reader appreciated that said Wikipedia pages were likewise mostly my own work.  Anyway, I didn't have the artwork ready yet:  a cube of six beveled faces held together purely by tension (no glue) thanks to six taught chains from the internally-suspended much-smaller tetrahedron.  Here's a copy of the rejected paper FYI:  http://4dsolutions.net/synergetica/bridges_paper_final.pdf  You already know of Vi Hart.  Her dad, George, is one of the Bridges ring leaders.

Kirby

--

[jennifer kurtz]

Maria~

I'm sorry it took so long to reply...

Thank you for the wonderful suggestions.  My son especially liked your advice about interfacing with individuals.  He completely understands how much finding the right person for his music has made all the difference.

Peace~ Jenn

---

From: Maria Droujkova <drou...@gmail.com>
To: "mathf...@googlegroups.com" <mathf...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Math Future] Thank you and questions