[Voting Spreadsheet] Main + Extra Category

[Marstead]

Generally, we do not take a completionist approach toward games on stream. The completionist playthrough style can really extend the length of a game, and with so many titles in the backlog, each extra hour spent collecting all the doodads in an individual title doesn't contribute much to its overall value to the stream. This really depends on the game though--some games have significant & unique additional content outside of the main story quest that doesn't feel quite like squeezing blood from a stone.

Going forward I would like to give folks who win slot auctions the option of adding a game and specifying the Main + Extra category on HowLongToBeat. With vote cost scaling implemented, this will increase the cost to vote for that game, which is fair -- we'll be playing it longer, after all. The decision about whether the additional content is "valuable" is going to have to be a qualitative judgement call on my part, so I can't give you specific rules on which games have "valuable" extra content that could qualify under this rule. You'd have to make an argument to me on a game-by-game and case-by-case basis.

I'll also make a special exception for Open World games like Skyrim, Fallout, or Final Fantasy XV, where there is a really huge gulf between the Main & Main + Extra categories. We'll have to handle the hours estimate and cost for these games a little differently.

To give you an idea of the sort of content I think is "valuable", I'll list a few games which I think are great candidates for this category, Open World games which would need some tweaking to the HLTB estimate, and games which are bad candidates.

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Main + Extra (Good Candidates)

Dark Souls Series (All Bosses)

Bravely Default (All Jobs Unlocked)

Castlevania Series (True Endings)

Cave Story (True Ending)

Final Fantasy V (All Jobs/Ultimate Magics Unlocked)

Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (All Masks)

Undertale (Pacifist Ending)

Chrono Trigger (All Sidequests)

Mass Effect Series (All Sidequests)

Shantae & the Pirate's Curse (True Ending)

The pattern for these games is that the extra content is unique, the path to unlocking it is interesting, the extra content is not very long compared to the full story playthrough (<50% of the main playthrough), and the additional content enhances the overall game experience significantly.

You'll notice many  of these games would be in the "Short" category (<30 Hours) to begin with. It is a lot easier to get me to agree to some extra content in a game if the game will already only take up a small amount of stream time. Even if the extra content is huge compared to the main game, if the main game is already extremely short, I will be much more amenable to including it.

Main + Extra (Open World/CRPG)

Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (Additional Sidequests)

Fallout Series (Additional Sidequests)

Final Fantasy XV (Additional Sidequests/Hunts)

Grand Theft Auto Series (Additional Sidequests)

Pillars of Eternity (Additional Sidequests)

Baldur's Gate (Additional Sidequests)

These are all Open World games or massive story-focused CRPGs. These titles have been a point of contention when we've discussed the HLTB system, as you don't really get the "full" experience rushing the main story in any of these games, as the sidequest content is a significant part of the way the games are meant to be played. That said, the Completionist category definitely isn't correct for these titles, and even the Main + Extra category is excessive compared to the Main Story only playthrough. For Open World games I would consider playing the game either for the Main+Extra HLTB category or half again as long as the Main Story only category, whichever is shorter, and spend the additional time sidequesting and exploring. Example games:

Final Fantasy XV: Main Story = 27 Hours, Main + Extra = 50 Hours. Main+Extra is almost twice as long as the main game, so we'd go with 27 + (27 / 2) = ~41 hours as the extended FF15 playthrough.

Skyrim: Main Story = 32 Hours, Main + Extra = 106 Hours. Main + Extra is 3 times as long as the main game! So we'd go with 32 + (32 / 2) = ~48 hours as the extended Skyrim playthrough.

Grand Theft Auto IV: Main Story = 28 Hours, Main + Extra = 41 Hours. Main + Extra is shorter than half of the Main story, so we could stick with that category for a ~41 hour extended GTA4 playthrough.

As many of these games would be blind for me, I'd need some guidance while we play to budget my time effectively. Unless if games explicitly prohibit it or otherwise lock you out of sidequest content as you progress through the main quest, I would plan to push the main story for these games until they are nearly finished, and then spend excess time on the HLTB clock exploring and sidequesting. Bonus points if these games let you continue playing after the credits.

Main + Extra (Bad Candidates)

Bad Candidates are easier to describe than good candidates, so I'll be explaining why each of these games wouldn't fit my criteria.

Bastion/Transistor (All Trials)

The combat trials in Bastion & Transistor are fairly short, but the content isn't unique and it doesn't add any story or mechanics to the playthrough. Although it wouldn't take a lot of time to finish it, it wouldn't be worth the stream time investment.

Legend of Zelda Series (All Pieces of Heart)

Many of the paths to pieces of heart in Zelda titles are interesting and unique. They might involve different minigames or fully exploring areas of the map. Collecting all of the pieces of heart can be pretty laborious, though, and it's closer to a completionist playthrough than a Main + Extra one. Note that I did include Majora's Mask as a good candidate -- collecting all the Masks in that game is particularly interesting, doesn't take a ton of additional time, and is quite a far shot from 100%ing that game.

SMT/Persona Series (All Optional Bosses)

The optional bosses in SMT/Persona games are very difficult and require a lot of resetting to beat. You could say the same thing about Dark Souls bosses, but there are a few major differences there. SMT's optional bosses can take 30-60+ minutes per attempt and are likely to result in failure due to RNG alone. The amount of stream time needed to grind to even be able to face these bosses, and then the time needed to reset repeatedly to get a good attempt does not seem to be worth the time investment to push these sorts of encounters. And at the end of the day, these games tend to already be quite long.

Super Mario 64 (All Stars)

Just about every star in Super Mario 64 (and other 3D Mario titles) involves a unique playthrough of a level, but collecting all of the stars in these games takes significantly more time than the main playthrough, and doesn't add a lot of value to the overall game in the end. Although level layouts will change, you typically won't see brand new levels while pushing star completion. Many titles require some very grindy stars.

Xenoblade Chronicles (All Sidequests)

Xenoblade Chronicles should be contrasted against other Open World games like Skyrim or Grand Theft Auto. For one, the "main story" of Xenoblade Chronicles is nearly 3 times as long as a game like Skyrim -- that's without doing any real sidequesting. In addition, XC's sidequests are almost all of the boring MMO "Collect 20 bear hearts and return to me" variety. That is, there's very little unique story content involved in the sidequesting experience. Sidequesting doesn't need to be all about story, it can also be world exploration, but it just doesn't feel like focusing an entire stream session on sidequesting in the original Xenoblade Chronicles is worth the effort, especially given the length of the base game.

Inside (Alternate Ending)

Inside's already a very short game, and the steps needed to unlock the Alternate Ending are pretty simple and short. However, they require playing back through big chunks of the game to find the unlockables, and actually completing those puzzles doesn't add enough interesting content to the game as a whole. The actual Alternate Ending is very simple and short (<30 seconds), so this is the sort of situation where it might be better to recommend I watch it on YouTube rather than spend the extra hour on-stream.

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>60 Hour Games

Games which are already longer than 60 hours in the Main Story category have their cost capped at 60 SP. Therefore, specifying that we should be playing the Main + Extra category can't increase their cost further. These games are already getting a "discount" in that they aren't being charged as much for the amount of time they will commandeer the stream schedule. For that reason, >60 Hour games in the Main Story category won't be able to be candidates for this Main + Extra system. We might revisit this if the cost to vote for >60 hour games is ever increased beyond 60 SP/vote.

Regarding DLC

You can already add games to the schedule and specify that you'd like me to play through some DLC. It depends on the content and length of the DLC, though -- a good rule of thumb is that the DLC should not be much longer of the main story playthrough, unless if the base game is already very short. It should have significant, unique content. Dark Souls DLC is perfect for this -- it's generally pretty short compared to the full playthrough, but it has a lot of new maps, enemies, weapons, spells, and especially bosses. 

The Pinnacle Station combat simulator DLC for Mass Effect 1 is a good example of bad DLC -- it doesn't add any story or interesting content and nothing that carries over between games. The Pillars of Eternity White March DLC would be a good candidate in that it has significant, unique content, but it's structured more like a major expansion or mini-sequel, taking almost 50% as long as the main game to complete. In cases where the DLC is good but extremely long or standalone, it would fit better as its own entry on the voting spreadsheet, to be voted up separately from the main game.

As with everything else in this post, DLC is going to be a judgement call by me. You'll have to argue your case for why it could be included as a single entry on the voting spreadsheet and I'll have to make a decision.

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Let me know on Discord if you have any questions about this policy.

Thanks!

-Dylan ("Marstead")