Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

[Nils Hitze]

Hi - it's late in Germany, it is even later in HK, but i thought i share this one with you guys.

http://youtu.be/CMxmzCRD3GU (sloppy print)

http://youtu.be/07JQHOTRSLY (Jon explaining the Box)

Blogpost:

http://makibox.com/blog.html?month=201211

Kind Regards,

a happy Community Manager

--

nils....@makible.com

Community Manager

G+ http://silberkind.de/+ | Twitter @kojote

makibox.com | makible.com | makibox.com/forum | bit.ly/makibox_ml | bit.ly/makibox_ml_de

[Russ Taber]

Great birthday (for me) news! It's working!

[Brad Wilkinson]

Congrats on the milestone!

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Russ Taber <russ...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great birthday (for me) news! It's working!

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-Brad-

"Velim te futuas"

[Daniel Strabley]

Ill second that - its like watching your kid take their first steps.... tho i dont have kids... i can imagine its just like this!

[andy turudic]

The xyz has been working for a long time as has the pellet extruder.

You are looking at first system integration, which normally has bugs to work out. With the xyz and pellet extruders working, the extruder, etc, are pretty straight forward.

BUT, to call it "working" is going to start all the whining to ship units, vs giving Jon some more rope to innovate and fully debug/optimize. I'd say he has a chance of making it by Xmas...the question is whether it'll be the Russian Xmas, or not...

If you see it make a model, it doesn't mean it should ship. They need some time after that to evaluate, tune, tweak, innovate. Watch the progress, cheer, but don't let the enthusiasm of the birthing lead to disappointment if you don't see anything for a while thereafter. You shouldn't.

Keep cheering, but don't let it lead to "when can I have my machine"...you can have a well thought out, reliable, design or you can get a less optimal piece of crap early...that is how crappy products are released in the corporate world where pressure to ship trumps getting it right.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2012, at 13:47, Russ Taber <russ...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Great birthday (for me) news! It's working!
>

[Michael Kirkland]

On 11/09/12 14:51, andy turudic wrote:
> The xyz has been working for a long time as has the pellet extruder.
>
> You are looking at first system integration, which normally has bugs to work out. With the xyz and pellet extruders working, the extruder, etc, are pretty straight forward.
>
> BUT, to call it "working" is going to start all the whining to ship units, vs giving Jon some more rope to innovate and fully debug/optimize. I'd say he has a chance of making it by Xmas...the question is whether it'll be the Russian Xmas, or not...
>
> If you see it make a model, it doesn't mean it should ship. They need some time after that to evaluate, tune, tweak, innovate. Watch the progress, cheer, but don't let the enthusiasm of the birthing lead to disappointment if you don't see anything for a while thereafter. You shouldn't.
>
> Keep cheering, but don't let it lead to "when can I have my machine"...you can have a well thought out, reliable, design or you can get a less optimal piece of crap early...that is how crappy products are released in the corporate world where pressure to ship trumps getting it right.

This. I gave Jon my monies so he could build me something cool, not so I
could have a printer Right Now.

[Nils Hitze]

You guys are awesome,  thanks a lot for your patience and passion.

[Logan Dorsey]

And thank you for your hard work on this project!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2012, at 9:38 PM, Nils Hitze <nils....@makible.com> wrote:

You guys are awesome,  thanks a lot for your patience and passion.

--

[Brad Wilkinson]

Better something Quality, (or even better, Ground-breakingly Awesome), than something Right Now. Seriously.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Nils Hitze <nils....@makible.com> wrote:

You guys are awesome,  thanks a lot for your patience and passion.

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[Adam Risi]

That is one satisfying update! Thanks you!

Adam Risi

Google, Inc.

Cell: 585-236-0906

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -Robert A. Heinlein

[Evan Slatyer]

That's the first time we've seen the Makibox moving "by itself" (ie
not just having the motors driven one at a time by a computer) isn't
it? Looks great!

I noticed that the filament drive motor was very frequently reversing
in that video. Is it likely that the feedback mechanism will avoid the
need for this? Or can the pellet drive manage reverse?

On 11/10/12, Adam Risi <ajr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That is one satisfying update! Thanks you!
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Brad Wilkinson <sirg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Better something Quality, (or even better, Ground-breakingly Awesome),
>> than something Right Now. Seriously.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Nils Hitze
>> <nils....@makible.com>wrote:
>>
>>> You guys are awesome, thanks a lot for your patience and passion.
>>>
>>> --
>>> -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com or join the
>>> discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com
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>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
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>>> at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Brad-
>>

>> *"Velim te futuas"*

>>
>> --
>> -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com or join the
>> discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Adam Risi
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 585-236-0906
>
> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
> a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
> build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
> cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
> program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
> Specialization is for insects. -Robert A. Heinlein
>

[torleif ceder]

I totally agree, I really don't  see the point in rushing this out before the holidays. Its R&D, not a toy store for kids. Grownups are to have a little more patience.The team is doing a great job but since Jon have broken the expression "quick wrap up" there is no way to reliably know. Its done when its done.

Taking in account past error of  predictions and development time, My guess is as good as anyone's. Some of the subsystems are under numbingly tight design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal components or material. Several "prototypes within prototype" relations need to get cleared for effective point of failure eradication. So realistically, I'm not surprised by something on the order of ten weeks for system integration, five weeks stress testing, three to five more for final shipping prep and 6 months for software to mature to commercial reliability.

My suggestion i that the team refrains from releasing any more progress updates in tense futurus.

[andy turudic]

This isn't the first time it's moved "by itself".

Go back in the updates and you'll see the makibox configured and running as a pen plotter.

The video didn't go viral because Jon's marketing instincts were too timid to draw some softcore porn with it, IMO :-)

Sent from my iPhone

[Jonathan Buford]

Here is a question for you guys. I can see that we can get a filament
printing version of the MakiBox able to ship within the holiday
timeframe. The integrated pellet drive will take a little longer to
get it to where I would be happy with shipping it to the masses. It
works, but we don't have enough time to test it where I *know* that it
is stable.

So, the question for the people on this list, which I think has a
significant part of the people that are long term followers of the
project is:
Would you rather a) receive a filament based unit before the end of
the year with a (free) pellet upgrade to follow shortly, b) a filament
based system and some additional printing material to thank you for
your patience (and be able to purchase a separate filament extruder
shortly), or c) just wait until there is a fully integrated unit early
Q1 2013 after we ship to the folks that just want anything that
prints?

One factor that I've not brought up before is that we are currently
looking at that we will be including an additional motor for driving
the filament regardless. During integration of the pellet drive into
the printing platform, it became clear that the forces to drive the
filament to print were causing some (possibly solvable, but black box)
type problems that could be satisfactorily side-stepped by adding the
separate drive motor to handle the cooled filament. So, it looks like
for this generation, the fully integrated pellet drive to separate
print head may not be feasible within a reasonable amount of time.

From a business standpoint, we need to start shipping, and I see this
being what I consider a no-compromise solution that I would be
comfortable with. Now that we have the filament extrusion technology
sorted, we can make cheaper filament in house, so our lead time and
MOQ issues with filament are not an issue any more.

I want to come up with a simple solution that winds up getting the
various early supporters what they want, if it is just a compact and
easy to use 3D printer or if it is the pellet extrusion technology, so
it would be interesting to hear what people here are most interested
in.

Cheers,

Jon

[Jonathan Buford]

My marketing instincts, did you know I made the first crowd funded
adult toy back in 2005? I just keep this project a little more family
friendly.

[andy turudic]

As far as cost constraints, if $50, or even $100 results in eliminating "numbingly tight design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal components or material" I'd say go for it as a iA6 (improved) model. 

Those that use these for one or two projects a year will be fine with the $300 ceiling constrained units.

The heavy users I don't think will mind a 10, 20, or 30 percent overrun if it gets rid of "the subsystems that are under numbingly tight design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal components or material"

So, how about it? Makibox A6, and Makibox iA6 models? Both are still under $400 (not that I'm complaining about $300).

Jon - if your guys are banging their foreheads against the wall...ask us. Constraint promotes innovation, but if it takes too long, it breeds compromise and suboptimal implementations.

Just ask us here...there are many of us here who are not shy about expressing opinion, and are  willing to provide insight or knowledge, to help you guys out.

Sent from my iPhone

[Guyren Howe]

For my part, I have quite a bit of filament (can we use any regular size?) from an aborted attempt to build a bot myself. So I'd be quite happy with a filament driven bot for now. If the upgrade is free, so I wind up with a bot that can use either, that sounds like a great way to go, technology wise, anyway.

[Neale Green]

Just talking for myself, I'm inclined to to go with c) just wait until
there is a fully integrated unit early Q1 2013.

As others have said, there shouldn't be many in here threatening to hold
their breath until their toys turn up, we opted to invest in getting a
viable/affordable 3D printer developed, I'm happy to wait for that.

Now if you happened onto a brainwave during the remaining development time
to incorporate metal printing, I'd he happy as Larry ;^)

So, 1 vote to wait until you finish what you're working on.

Neale

> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM, torleif ceder <torlei...@gmail.com>

Neale
Green

[Robin Bussell]

Make that two votes for playing the long game :)
Is there a voting module for the forum? There often is on these things, it would make life easier than counting emails perhaps :)
Cheers,
Robin.

[David Contreni]

I'm not sure where I am in your list Jon, perhaps a couple dozen sales outside of the original 300.  The pellet feed was a hard sell for me, but something that I've come to believe in.  BUT, at the same time, heh, I'm a little impatient to get my hands on a Makibox.  With this in mind, I think I'd like to go with the first offer--filament system, and free upgrade to pellet feed later.

That being said, it might surprise you that in spite of missing the "by Christmas" deadline, I could still stand to be a little more patient.  I know you're going to have this thing nailed in short order.

[Holger Bastek]

I would prefer offer (a) with the free option for the pellet extruder.
I only see one problem on that solution, after you go that way you are
restricted in the development.
If you are sure to go that way, i were very happy to get my box soon.

BR
Holger

[Jonathan Buford]

I'll do this formally via the site soon. It just looked like a good opportunity to run the situation by folks and see the feedback before popping it to several hundred people.

makibox+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en

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[andy turudic]

yeah, but now we can print our own...I'll bet that's how you came up with the build volume, isn't it
;-)

Sent from my iPhone

[andy turudic]

I suggest you start shipping filament units to those that want machines so you can get your cash flowing sooner than later with more orders. I also suggest you don't give away a pellet drive upgrade, but it be priced as an optional line item or can be ordered afterwards.

in other words, filament with a subsequent purchase of a pellet drive, or those that wait get a pellet drive with the ability to purchase a filament kit. no need for extra material being shipped as a reward...chump change for us, a month's electric bills for you.

offer two machines, and two changeover kits, nothing free. you need to pay your bills or all this grinds to a complete halt.

don't give anything away, unless it's a "recall" of a really bad design that got released to the first 1000.

if there's an extra motor needed, jack the price up $25, or whatever it is so you are not wrapping each motor in dollar bills when you ship them.

don't padlock the doors in being too kind to us.

The $300 sounds like a bit low for going forward. Up to you to honor existing orders at the current level. I'm sure most won't mind paying a bit more for that unanticipated motor if it makes the machine right.

my $0.02

Sent from my iPhone

[Imko Beckhoven van]

my first reaction, option a 

2012/11/10 Jonathan Buford <jon.b...@gmail.com>

[andy turudic]

again, I see no need to ship a "dual mode" printer at $300.

the pellet drive gets done when it gets done.

if there's an earlier filament machine, you pay for early by getting a filament machine. you want pellet wgen it becomes available, you buy it. The savings for just one spool of filament will buy it for you..it shouldn't have to come out of Jon's pocket.

everyone like "free" and "coupons"...you need to feed the R&D to get the next little add-on for this platform, not pillage its dwindling cash reserve with unreasonable freebie demands.

offer the choice Jon..and vonvert the orders A6F or A6P. 

A6F shipping forecast xx/yy/201x $300

A6P shipping forecast xx/yy/201x $325 (or whatever to cover that motor and other materials needs)

Amend existing orders accordingly.

Also price the changeover kits to take one feed scheme to the other.

"would you like x for free?"

how many resounding "no's" are you going to get?

hardball it...no freebies unless there's a design problem....that in itself will get expensive, but hopefully won't happen

Sent from my iPhone

[Holger Bastek]

I agree with Andy

some time ago I have pay the (old) Makibox without the pellet drive. So now I have to decide which Box I want to have.
With filament around christmas
with pellet drive (perhaps additional costs for more stepper motors) in Q1 1213

I also think "everything for free" is no way to go.

Keep on working, but don´t forget to live

BR
Holger

[Davor Hrg]

I agree with no too much free stuff folks :)

It is my money to spend, and i don't give it up easily, but...

I am generally pro for the stainless option mentioned some time

ago if I see extra cost worth it in my mind :) .

Consolidate the offered options, and add few bucks for those willing to wait,

for integrated version as additional R&D is not free of cost.

Each one of us will then decide what we  want and let you know,

after that, you can make more plans and continue the good work :)

I am willing to wait for the integrated version few more months,

even if you add $25 on top of that :) ... for more I'd have to think ;)

Davor Hrg

[XXXX XXXX]

Hi

I would go with option A if there is no complex integration of the Pellet Drive when it arrives as I have no experience in soldering although I did do welding when I was growing up on a farm.
Again with option A will there be any filament included and I take it we will need the 1.75mm filament?
I would go through a lot printing attempts as I would like to run through most of the configurable settings as that is my nature.  I have many years testing and also Quality Assurance after I gave up being a developer because I saw a greater need of quality for the clients rahter than rushed development.

Alternatively how much would option B cost.  I did consider hacking the system to be able to make filament while not printing.

And for each of these options how would the filament be mounted without the extruder, would it simply be a spool located where the pellet bin was going to be located?

Thanks

[Carter Adams]

Option "a" would be hard to turn down...

Regards,

Carter Adams

www.LeagueOperator.org
www.CartersBilliardsLibrary.com
poolp...@gmail.com

Sent from my Android powered EVO by Sprint

[Willem Lijmbach]

Option A would be very nice.....

2012/11/10 Carter Adams <poolp...@gmail.com>:

[Hassan]

I think I can wait till the option C.

Sent from my iPhone

[Markku Porvari]

Version A would be best - possibility to print with filaments soon and the
possibility to change the printing from pellets later - ABSOLUTELY THE BEST
CHOICE!

-make3D-

-----Original Message-----
From: mak...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mak...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Buford
Sent: 10. marraskuuta 2012 12:17
To: mak...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Makibox] Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

> makibox+group at
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en

[Michael Ziolek]

I think this deserves multiple points of consideration. Jon, any way
we can get a rough price for the "paid" option a? Also, giving the
pellet option out for free to early orders is not necessarily a killer
for income. If we start putting out reviews and videos on YouTube and
grow the 3D printing community as Jon was hoping, I can easily see a
big list of new orders for units flooding in. That being said, I would
raise the price once units are moving out the door. Pre-release units
as funding (the boat we are all in) are typically cheaper as a reward
for patience and support. Why not take those extra costs and put them
on the future buyers who didn't go through hundreds of emails and
didn't just send out $350 to some random place in HK (no offense, Jon
:) ). Jon could EASILY raise the price another $100 for future buyers
without hurting sales. Also, I might as well mention/ask, is that
laser cutting mod still something in the plans for way farther future?

Michael

Sent from a mobile device.

[Evan Slatyer]

I'd probably prefer option (A), although I'd also be very happy with
either of the other options. The only limitation is that I'd expect
option (C) to still be able to use filament; otherwise it's clearly
less flexible than (A) or (B).


How much of the pellet extruder can be printed? If you ship options
(A) or (B) and people can use that to print a substantial portion of
the parts needed for the pellet extruder, that might save some
time/money.


Apart from that, if the $300 budget is causing problems then I don't
have a problem with paying a bit more to get it done right.

[Soren Jones]

1) C
2) A
3) B

All the best,
Soren

> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM, torleif ceder <torlei...@gmail.com (mailto:torlei...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > I totally agree, I really don't see the point in rushing this out before
> > the holidays. Its R&D, not a toy store for kids. Grownups are to have a
> > little more patience.The team is doing a great job but since Jon have broken
> > the expression "quick wrap up" there is no way to reliably know. Its done
> > when its done.
> >
> > Taking in account past error of predictions and development time, My guess
> > is as good as anyone's. Some of the subsystems are under numbingly tight
> > design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal
> > components or material. Several "prototypes within prototype" relations need
> > to get cleared for effective point of failure eradication. So realistically,
> > I'm not surprised by something on the order of ten weeks for system
> > integration, five weeks stress testing, three to five more for final
> > shipping prep and 6 months for software to mature to commercial reliability.
> >
> > My suggestion i that the team refrains from releasing any more progress
> > updates in tense futurus.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:27:55 AM UTC+1, sirgronk wrote:
> > >
> > > Better something Quality, (or even better, Ground-breakingly Awesome),
> > > than something Right Now. Seriously.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Nils Hitze <nils....@makible.com (http://makible.com)> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You guys are awesome, thanks a lot for your patience and passion.
> > > >
> > > > --

> > > > -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com (http://makibox.com) or join the
> > > > discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com (http://forum.makibox.com)

> > > >
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

> > > > Makibox group. To post to this group, send email to mak...@googlegroups.com (http://googlegroups.com).
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to makibox+u...@googlegroups.com (http://googlegroups.com).

> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > -Brad-
> > >
> > > "Velim te futuas"
> > --

> > -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com (http://makibox.com) or join the discussion
> > on our Forum: forum.makibox.com (http://forum.makibox.com)

> >
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > Makibox group. To post to this group, send email to

> > mak...@googlegroups.com (mailto:mak...@googlegroups.com). To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > makibox+u...@googlegroups.com (mailto:makibox+u...@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit this group at
> > https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en
>
>
>
> --
> -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com (http://makibox.com) or join the discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com (http://forum.makibox.com)

[Gabriel Petrut]

Andy is perfectly right. I signed up for a filament printer. I will pay for the pellet extruder gladly as an upgrade, perhaps at the price of the parts plus a little markup, compared to the regular price that will include a generous markup to cover the R&D. Plus, it will be worth it to make the pellet drive able to make filament of different diameters, the 1.5 mm (or 1.75, don't remember exactly the standard), this way people with other printers will be happy to buy one, thus more revenue for you. So, I would like to get my hands early on a MakiBox, because besides being a robot builder, I am a beekeeper, and I have lots of free time over the winter but almost no time after the spring starts.

Cheers!

Gabriel Petrut

---

From: andy turudic <solutions...@yahoo.com>
To: "mak...@googlegroups.com" <mak...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:04:32 AM

Subject: Re: [Makibox] Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

[Wesley Woo-Duk Hwang-Chung]

Here's my two cents. Sounds like the (a) option is a win-win for me.
Customers get their products "faster", and the company gets the orders
fulfilled. The whole pellet drive was not initially in the proposal
anyway, so it's not technically not delivering the promise. The first
followers that stayed through the pellet drive development gets
rewarded for eventual free upgrade.

While I do prefer better than faster, some lines have to be drawn, and
if the filament drive already works sufficiently well, I'm all for
receiving that unit first.

Sent from my Windows Phone에서 발송된 메일입니다.
Wesley Woo-Duk Hwang-Chung | 정우덕
Tool-Box.info
보낸 사람: Jonathan Buford
보낸 날짜: 2012-11-10 19:17
받는 사람: mak...@googlegroups.com
제목: Re: [Makibox] Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

[Stephane BUISSON]

Definitely option A

I will be very happy to pay for some filament on top in the waiting
time for the pellet extruder.

And about the frame, clear acrylic (I'll like to see inside), like
your prototype.

if pellet extruder is separated (discrete ) unit it is even better for
me.

Your follower since march 2012.


Stephane

[Jonathan Buford]

Pellet extruder that goes with the MakiBox would fit into the package
still. Just fill in the space where the filament would otherwise go.
It would tap into the onboard controller and power, so keeping the
costs lower than the standalone design.

[Jens Rapp]

Hi,
I'd prefer a because i want the box asap ;) but I also want to have the
pellet drive because it makes printing effordable.
Color doesn't matter if it's not pink..

[Kevin Williams]

Mixed feelings.

Despite my impatience to start printing, cost is a huge factor for me:
Commercial services are expensive, but spools of media (especially if there's
a lot of unrecoverable waste) aren't cheap either.

I also confess I haven't spent any time at all window shopping for filament
since I want to be sure I'm looking at the right diameter and supported media
type(s) before trying to find a quality supply (tes, I'm one of those nuts
who wants to be able to print in ABS).

I sense am likely to get a better-sorted overall printer if I wait for option
"C" since more kinks are likely to be ironed out after the first wave of
printers goes out the door.

Since I paid a bit extra for one of the "additional print media" options, I'm
more inclined to want to want to redirect that money toward the pellet drive
(first) if it costs more than the filament-only version, and/or payment
toward the stainless chassis option if that's still on the table (depending
on how much higher the cost will be).

So, option "C" is my first choice with "A" as a second, but that could still
change based on how the final cost rains out, and how well-sorted the printer
is working with just a filament drive.

Since the options were brought up, I'd like to voice that I also feel very
strongly that the presence of a pellet drive + hopper should NOT exclude the
possibility of still using pre-fabricated filament on that printer.

Cheers,
Kevin W.

[Robin Bussell]

Here's a cool idea ( which means you probably already thought of it :) )
The extra motor for filament driving could maybe also do duty as a spool winder if the makibox was configured as a filament producer for non pellet drive users in the distributed ecosystem I think you have in mind.
Cheers,
Robin.

[Jonathan Buford]

I think we will try to make it a hot swap type of option, where you
can fit in the pellet extruder in the same space as where a box of
filament would fit.

Filament, we will be introducing it at $16/kg, now that we have the
ability to make it at will. :)

[Jonathan Buford]

Hmm, true. That is one bit that would not be included in the
integrated unit. Sounds like a printable mod to me.

[David Contreni]

I went back to bed, woke up and see lots of new responses.  I guess that shouldn't surprise me.

Something I want to know is, is this a poll and Jon and company goes with the most popular choice?  Or are these the three options Jon presents to increasingly impatient customers?

 I think they're all good options, but I feel that option A has the best ultimate reward.  Taken together the three choices do a lot of things--Boxes get out the door for those who are really tired of waiting and ready to revolt over a missed "by Christmas" promise.  New products get added to the Makibox catalog, production can begin over the entire product line, and people start seeing Makiboxes in the wild.

I was one of the first to make a decision.  (What people are calling "option A."  I was also one of the first buyers.  Not one of the first 300, but not far behind them.  Frankly it was the price that attracted me.  I'd be a little upset to have to pay more, for any reason after all this.  And having to pay more--even a token price, would not be easy for me.

In a few of the responses I saw "Don't give anything away."  Uh. . .Those of us who ordered early, and endured the waiting and the irritating fork into pellet drive research, (Remember how close things seemed in June when we got to see the carriage moving for the first time?)  I feel that, we DO deserve a nod for our patience.  And Jon seems to agree.  He made informed decisions every step of the way, and, well his only sin is a little overconfidence.

If prices need to go up after the initial orders ship, I can understand that.  But I think it's also a good idea to offer some level of reward--tailored to our level of patience and faith in the pellet system--to those of us who've been here watching and waiting.

[Logan Dorsey]

I would probably vote for option A, as long as I don't have to pay another $50 to ship the pellet drive to me.

Logan

Sent from my iPad

[Stephane BUISSON]

Jon,

"Hotswap type of option" 

the main thing is if the "or" is inclusive or exclusive

I do understand your point to shared ressources (PSU & onboard) to keep the cost down. 

But Hopefully you had understand mine about the advantages to have both filament and pellet options in same unit at different time.

Do-ability make me choose option A

But both options are not incompatible, at first I was thinking it may be a stackable option for space allocation and ease of update.

What do you think ?

Pensee

Makibox # 301

_____________________________________________

[Michael Ziolek]

Is that shipped cost?

[Jonathan Buford]

Of course not including shipping. That is the sales price, shipping cost will vary depending on where.

[Michael Ziolek]

Ah true, I forgot the "where" part. Why don't you raise the price after shipping out the orders up until now? It only makes sense that the people that pre ordered get the great deal and then the people later pay for the pellet upgrade. Early adopters should get the upgrade free, the higher cost after us should offset the free part. 

[Jonathan Buford]

That is the plan.

[Sandro Fouche]

I have to admit that I am exactly opposed to Andy's position.

While I appreciate the idea that Makibox shouldn't have to bear unreasonable costs, hopefully they *never* planned on selling these printers to us at cost. I expected that Jon requested $300/printer because he reasonably expected the total cost of development to allow for production and sale of at least the initial run of printers for that price. Which is why I also did not complain about spending $50 for shipping, because Makibox should not have to subsidize getting the printers to my door.

But time and opportunity have costs as well. Some of us paid for this project back in February 2012, and we're quickly approaching the 1-year mark. The initial plan was a filament printer with .5 kg of filament, shipped in late March/early April 2012. Fulfilling the same promise in December 2012, represents 8 months of delay for a pellet system that Andy is suggesting we now pay extra to obtain. Notably, this isn't Jon's position, Andy appears to be making the offer charitably, but I also notice that Andy isn't listed in the first 300 supporters. I'm also guessing that $300 isn't as much money to him as it is to some of us others.

Some of us who have projects that would benefit from 3D printed parts have been waiting since early spring for the A6 to ship. You can go back to that mid-feburary timeframe and Jon mentions that "electronics are the longest lead-time" items, and he ordered the first sets back then. Back then we expected to have initial units by summer at the latest. Assuming that the delay hasn't caused people other opportunity costs is a bit myopic. I don't expect the Makibox A6 to stay at $300 for future buyers, but Jon and co. made some commitments to their initial backers that I think need to be honored.

[Michael Ziolek]

I agree with this. Not that Sandro is, but we should not get too
divided over all this. Jon and team are doing great work and the delay
sucks but is not something that I didn't expect. Any time you have a
project like this it will run into snags and issues that will delay. I
agree it shouldn't be of extra cost as it is a choice that was made
(the pellet feeder) and that caused some delay. I think that with the
added price on future units the "free" pellet feeders for the initial
orders would be covered. Also, as an idea since there are "charitable"
suggestions as was mentioned: Jon, why not get a bunch of the
stainless casings custom laser etched or something and charge more for
them, kind of making it a more expensive "special edition" in case
people like Andy (or those who have extra cash) can buy that as a way
of saying thanks and contributing more funds while at the same time
having a nice reminder?

[Robert Ehresman]

Jon:

Let's seen now.... have my cake and eat it too. DEFINITELY A.

But seriously...

I personally think you should offer to ship filament now pellet later,
and SELL the pellet upgrade to folk who take filament now. Offer a
filament option for sale to those who wait for pellet too.

I actually see value added in having both sorts of heads. I imagine
filament is less fuss overall, but limiting in a number of ways such as
coloring and recycling,

There is also business value in modularizing your print head design. I
imagine you could at some time in the future offer, say, a paint head or
pen head that would allow us to do some color details to models after
they have been finished in a monochrome plastic but before they are
dismounted from the base. I confess I dont know how hard it would be to
re-register a model or a different print head to do second pass work.
But I would certainly be interested in the capability and open my check
book to get it.

Others have said dont fail your business to be fair to the customers. I
agree with that.

I bought a filament printer for USD$300. I would be satisfied with a
filament printer for USD$300. You added pellets. I would pay extra at a
point in the future to be able to work with pellets.

Frankly, I have been mildly annoyed with the foray into pelletdom
because of the effect on delivery schedule. I have captured the
enthusiasm for it, mind you, but havent enjoyed waiting.

Cheers;
Bob

>>>> --
>>>> -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com or join the
>>>> discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com
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>>>
>>>
>>>

>>> --
>>> -Brad-
>>>
>>> "Velim te futuas"
>>>

[Jeff Mawhirter]

My vote is for option a. My situation is that it's my son's final year in high school and our time to play with this toy (our first 3d printer) together is limited by that. Fwiw, I intend to buy another Makibox for him to take to whichever engineering university he ends up going to.

Thanks for asking,
Jeff

[Jone Brattland]

Hi,
I'd prefer option A any day. Having waited since February I'm quite eager
to get my hands on the printer, but I'm still very interested in the
pellet drive.

BTW: I ordered with the 5 kg filament option. Will I receive 5 kg filament
before Christmas or will it be a mix of filament and pellets? I'm guessing
you have a good solution for this, but I'm not sure I will be happy with 5
kg of pellets for the price of 5 kg filament... ;)

På Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:16:58 +0100, skrev Jonathan Buford
<jon.b...@gmail.com>:

Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[kenneth rooks]

Option C please. I've waited this long and the pellet idea is the best way to go.

[Anton vK]

option C please. Like to go for the best design and implementation.

Thanks good work

[andy turudic]

I'm not in the 300..lost that race because I didn't know about it until Gizmag covered it. I am low 300's...I think I ordered a week or so after first funding closed. How much runway do you think the 300 funding got for R&D months...think it paid for all the time, facilities, wages, materials, since March?

That said, without those additional funds from the next hundreds, you'd have nothing but vaporware and the doors would have been padlocked many months ago and no printer at all in any form. The 300 started it, but the R&D has actually been funded by the first 700+ orders...no need to look down your nose at *anyone* with orders on the books...even Miss 704 is equivalent to Mr 237 in all respects except getting the program started...we all kept the doors open and the R&D moving forward vs shutting down the project. Had the printer shipped in March, you'd be super special...now you're just a starter and first recipient.

As I said before, nobody will say "no" to free. Myself included (I've been unemployed for 3-1/2 years). And some selfish people will demand "free" as some kind of punishment perversion. The first 300 ordered a filament printer. There is no reason you should get a pellet drive for free. Your reward was first shipment and still will be. If you like the pellet drive, that's what you get, but the filament and spool drive is a paid for option.

As a business person, I can also show you the math...ship 800 units of something that costs Jon $50 (additional mode), something that was never promised (pellet drive AND spool feeder) or keep the doors open for four more months until the order cashflow starts up due to a working printer?

I say you get one or the other. Your reward is still earliest access. You want dual mode, you pony up the money for it, versus stealing (yes, it is a theft if you demand "free") money from the R&D for the next add-on for the A6....hopefully a cutting laser for up to 0.25" acrylic and maybe a milling machine spindle mount.

So, "free" to satisfy your greed and hurt the rate of R&D going forward, or paying for what you were never promised (dual mode for the money)...if Jon wants to discount the second mode kit to those of us with orders to date, those that kept the shop open, it's his call...he seems like a very honorable and upstanding guy, even after considering his lurid adult-toy past... ;-)

You paid for one mode, don't expect more for "free". You're not THAT special or privileged. The second mode is a bolt-on you order and pay for...nothing wrong with that. If you want more, you are selfish, greedy, and unreasonable, and are not feeding the next wonderful innovation to come out of the lab.

Sent from my iPhone

[Billy Sides]

I think from a business stand point you should put the filament only option in your store now or as soon as it is printing reliably. List that one for $300 and send it out to those who want it now.

Put the pellet only option in the store as soon as possible, maybe keep it at $300, then when both versions are working...

Release the combo version filament and pellets $your price here.

 

Personally I would like to wait for option C because I think by then the bugs will be noted and worked out.

I bought this printer for two reason, the price and the ability to print with pellets, the option to print with fillament would definitly be a bonus.

 

On a side note, I think it could easily push out filament just by swaping out the print head.

 

But either way, I think you should start brining in $$$ ASAP by getting a working version in your store.

 

bsides

[Austin Peasley]

Option A.

I ordered back in May, expecting a printer that looked like it's be ready by July or early August at the latest, and the idea of paying more is somewhat annoying to me. I would have no problem paying for the pellet extruder *if* the printer had been developed without it, and I got what I paid for a few months back (When it would have probably been finished without said extruder). At that point I have not invested any additional time or support for extruder, and so it would be only fair for me to have to pay for the option.

However, myself and others have had to wait an additional 3-5 months on top of when the printer would have been developed and finished simply so they could develop this addition, so charging me extra for something you delayed production on to finish is unacceptable imo. It would be like ordering a sandwich, but being told after an hour that the delay was so they could make soup which I could pay extra for, and either way I'd get a sandwich far after when I was expecting it.

The above ideas for additional fundraising (Special Edition Makiboxes, increasing price for future buyers, etc) are all fine, but I would strongly discourage you guys from charging existing subscribers more. The entire reason I was looking at the Makibox instead of the Reprap or Makerbot was the lower pricepoint, but this is becoming less of a boon after a 6+ months additional wait, and is negated if you start charging more to existing customers. :/

[Kevin P]

Option A.

I'd think having the filament maker as a standalone unit would be better, no jam worries during prints. I'd be willing to pay more for separate motor/electronics needed for such as well as reducing shipping/material costs on your end by printing as much of it here as possible.

[Abdul Padia]

I was slightly later then the first 300 but not to far.

I have enjoyed the whole process but I did voice my concern regarding time when the branch from filament to extruder was put forward.

 

I don't really see how I can turn down Option A. I get a printer early and a free extruder later and a far more flexible printer to boot. It is a win win for me.

I agree that with a more flexible printer, new purchasers should not baulk at paying a little more. I don't think you would lose any orders for a more capable printer.

So I go with option A.

I look forward to paying for a laser cutter and milling head in the future.

Thanks for asking our opinion Jon. I know you are not held to anything but even asking makes me feel more a part of the whole think.

 

[Nigel Thompson]

Option A is a sweet deal. My wife will be off my back and I can play over Xmas.
Cheers
Nigel

Political Correctness is a doctrine rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that
it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

[Johann Boltz]

Although I'm waiting since march too, I'd go for C so the early adopters can report their findings and I will probably get an improved one ;)

[Kevin Williams]

I have had my fill of seeing narrow-minded, destructive criticism; arrogant
self-importance; and the presumption to speak on behalf of anyone but one's
self�much less witnessing the audacity to speak on behalf of Makible,
considering Jon, Nilz et al. are perfectly capable of doing so themselves.

I don't believe one bad egg should ruin the bunch, but this is not the first
time in the past couple weeks that I have seen other Makible supporters
directly attacked, criticized, and generally made to feel unwelcome here.

This is also not the first time someone has spoken out against such poor
conduct. Since polite requests evidently have no effect to remedy the
problem, and I refuse to stoop to the level of the offending party, does
anyone have any constructive alternatives on how the problem might be
addressed that doesn't involve wholesale withdrawl from the group? Will I
have to resort to a mail filter?

Kevin W.

[valentin svahn]

I pledged the MakiBox project in February 2012 and since 9 month, I'm waiting...

It's very long, but I think it's necessary... 

But I also think it's very important to be patient : I prefer the option C.

Why ? Just because I think MakiBox and the pellet drive must be designed together.

Valentin.

Le 10 nov. 2012 à 21:18, Kevin Williams <ke...@isolationism.com> a écrit :

I have had my fill of seeing narrow-minded, destructive criticism; arrogant self-importance; and the presumption to speak on behalf of anyone but one's self—much less witnessing the audacity to speak on behalf of Makible, considering Jon, Nilz et al. are perfectly capable of doing so themselves.

[andy turudic]

explain "poor conduct", other than not agreeing with your own views on the direction shipping, pricing, and development, should take (which you have not expressed)

everyone here is voicing their opinions and, in an open forum, has the right to do so. not just a right, but it gives Jon valuable insight into his customer base.

you have provided ZERO input on the topic everyone else has, only are interested in censoring opinion you apparently don't agree with.

go ahead and filter me on your own computer...do you think that will get me upset, especially when your posts are only designed to suppress the process of data gathering, opinion, and thought provocation? I'd be delighted.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 10, 2012, at 12:18, Kevin Williams <ke...@isolationism.com> wrote:

>
> I have had my fill of seeing narrow-minded, destructive criticism; arrogant self-importance; and the presumption to speak on behalf of anyone but one's self—much less witnessing the audacity to speak on behalf of Makible, considering Jon, Nilz et al. are perfectly capable of doing so themselves.

[Michael Kirkland]

On 11/10/12 02:16, Jonathan Buford wrote:
> So, the question for the people on this list, which I think has a
> significant part of the people that are long term followers of the
> project is:
> Would you rather a) receive a filament based unit before the end of
> the year with a (free) pellet upgrade to follow shortly, b) a filament
> based system and some additional printing material to thank you for
> your patience (and be able to purchase a separate filament extruder
> shortly), or c) just wait until there is a fully integrated unit early
> Q1 2013 after we ship to the folks that just want anything that
> prints?

My vote would be for A or C. My confidence is still with Jon and his
team, whatever they think makes most engineering sense is my preference.
That's why I bought in in the first place.

[abs...@verizon.net]

Jon,

To borrow a phrase used by Robert Heinlein "TANSTAAFL" (  There ain't no such thing as a free lunch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). All of the early adopters jumped on this to get a low cost  filament based unit (and no I wasn't in the original 300 - I think my wife and I saw this in Apr/May timeframe and committed in early May), Guess what - I get to receive a low cost  filament based unit within a year. Thank goodness this moderately risky startup is hanging in there and delivering what I paid for. Option B is a surprise offering! Thanks Jon! I appreciate the opportunity to pickup the pellet extruder at a later date and I will want that for the flexibility. I've toured the solar system on the crazy planet for nearly 60 years andseen alot of dreams turn into dust along the way.  I want to see your full vision for this device and its follow-ons implemented. Please don't give away too many free lunches. Stay in business and make enough to have a good life too.

Cheers, Jack 

 

 

On 11/10/12, Jonathan Buford<jon.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I'll do this formally via the site soon. It just looked like a good opportunity to run the situation by folks and see the feedback before popping it to several hundred people.

On Nov 10, 2012 6:33 PM, "Holger Bastek" <holger...@gmx.de> wrote:

I would prefer offer (a) with the free option for the pellet extruder.
I only see one problem on that solution, after you go that way you are restricted in the development.
If you are sure to go that way, i were very happy to get my box soon.

BR
Holger

Am 10.11.2012 11:16, schrieb Jonathan Buford:

Here is a question for you guys. I can see that we can get a filament
printing version of the MakiBox able to ship within the holiday
timeframe. The integrated pellet drive will take a little longer to
get it to where I would be happy with shipping it to the masses. It
works, but we don't have enough time to test it where I *know* that it
is stable.

So, the question for the people on this list, which I think has a
significant part of the people that are long term followers of the
project is:
Would you rather a) receive a filament based unit before the end of
the year with a (free) pellet upgrade to follow shortly, b) a filament
based system and some additional printing material to thank you for
your patience (and be able to purchase a separate filament extruder
shortly), or c) just wait until there is a fully integrated unit early
Q1 2013 after we ship to the folks that just want anything that
prints?

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"Velim te futuas"

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[Davor Hrg]

ok, so much talk here,

and I'd like to remind everyone on the original proposal by Jon

 a) receive a filament based unit before the end of

the year with a (free) pellet upgrade to follow shortly, 

(shipping cost is not free)

b) a filament based system and some additional printing material 

to thank you for your patience (and be able to purchase a 

separate filament extruder shortly), or 

c) just wait until there is a fully integrated unit early Q1 2013 

after we ship to the folks that just want anything that prints?

Some object further wait and cost and some are willing to pay sth exta

for a more finished version later on and wait even more.

No need for too much arguing, just state your preference so Jon can

make further plans.

If I understood correctly, we are given option here, and not voting

which option will be for all, so no need need to argue what is better,

just say what is better for you.

[Sandro Fouche]

I don't want anything for free. So tell you what. Jon can send me a filament printer and have it delivered last April like promised before he decided to spend the last few months working on the pellet drive that I never asked/paid for, but that I have had to sit through the development of. Again you pretend time and patience aren't worth anything. I could just have easily given my money to printrbot and I'd have a printer today. I went with Makibox because I liked their pitch better, and I'm not disappointed with the decision, but calling me a thief because I don't think I should be charged more in exchange for a decision I was *never* given is a bit much.

You seem to have no problem ascribing greed to my motives, but really I'm just a bit annoyed at having waited through the last few months of pellet drive development, and now being told (by on-lookers) that I should just take a filament drive and pay-up if I want the fruits of the last 8 months of waiting. Furthermore, I certainly didn't ask for dual-mode. Look back, and find where I *ever* asked for dual-mode. I haven't typed those words or their equivalent until now. Frankly, if I have the pellet drive I can figure out how to feed it filament if I want, so I don't see the need for filament drive. My argument against what you were proposing (and I admit it wasn't entirely clear) was I don't want to pay $25 extra for the pellet drive. If anyone had asked me in April if I'd rather have a filament drive sooner, or pay $25 extra *and* wait 9+ months for a pellet drive, I would have selected the filament drive in a heartbeat. Now that I've already paid the opportunity cost, I'd rather have the pellet drive, but I don't have the inclination or the funds to add more to this adventure at this point.

I agree with you, Jon *does* seem like a very honorable and upstanding guy, and I'll even add committed and talented to the list of admirable qualities. But you on the other hand have thrown around an accusation or two that doesn't engender the same kind of admiration. By my count you have accused me of:

1. "looking down my nose" at someone (where did I look down my nose at you or anyone else, in fact I claimed you were being charitable and apparently better of than myself and unnamed others).
2. "Selfish" although this is just by implication since youdid specify "some selfish people" not specifically referring to me).
3. "Theft", although I never asked for dual-mode, you seem to think that I want it for free. What I really was against was paying an extra $25 for the pellet drive version.
4. "Greed", see above.
5. "Special or privileged", ibid.
6. "Selfish, greedy, and unreasonable", ibid.

The truth is Andy, *you* have made this a most unpleasant experience from my standpoint. I have been impatient and excited about the Makibox since I placed my order, and until you started accusing people of being greedy and selfish I was willing to wait and accept whatever was sent my way. I actually have no complaints with Jon or the Makibot team, but I don't really want to get antagonistic e-mails from people who don't know me, but want to lay blame on strangers.

Tell you what, Andy if you want my order you can send me $349, and I'll have the Jon send you my Makibot, instead of hanging around in this community. I'll give you a $1 discount since I don't want you to think that I'm profiteering. I can and will happily take my time, energy, and money and find a project where the participants are not going to call me names.



-Sandro

> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Makibox group. To post to this group, send email to makibox@googlegrou

[Logan Dorsey]

I am all for A as long as shipping is under $25 otherwise I will go with C

Logan

Sent from my iPad

[Michael Ziolek]

I'm going to have to agree with this.

[Nils Hitze]

Ok folks - it might be a good time to cool down a bit and sleep a night over this whole conversation or tune it into a more private channel - i am more than willing to moderate it if needed.

As pointed out correctly: This was a thread about the first Print (hurray) and the options that Jon came up with to keep everyone of our loyal supporters (wether early backers or preorders) happy and satisfied.

The only thing that i definitely have to correct is: When Jon launched the Funding Campaign he was 10000% over optimistic about the "when" and a bit naiv. (sorry Jon)

So please stop requoting a Delivery Date that was redefined approx a 100 times by me or Felix in countless SocialNetworks. Thank you.

And now i will go to bed. gn8

Nils

nils....@makible.com

Community Manager

G+ http://silberkind.de/+ | Twitter @kojote

makibox.com | makible.com | makibox.com/forum | bit.ly/makibox_ml | bit.ly/makibox_ml_de

[Sandro Fouche]

Ok, Andy I'll explain the "poor conduct" comment.

I listed 6 ways you put me down in my previous e-mail. I won't repeat them here.

But, I also suspected that I remembered your name for a reason, and I went back and checked.

From your message of Oct. 23:

> Tell your partner I said s/he is an idiot and do do it themselves if they know better.

From your message of Oct. 22:

> I'm not in favor of the "bonehead", non-hackable, direction and attitudes that seem to be rising up these days.


You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion, but I'd like to have respectful communications with other adults.
You seem to have a habit of engaging in unprovoked name-calling.


Legitimate question for Makibot personnel, is there an approved method to get updates besides the e-mail list (Facebook, Twitter, etc)?
I'm not going to tolerate this level of disrespect any longer, and I want a way of staying informed without the e-mail list.


-Sandro

[Nils Hitze]

I will always fwd the Blogposts to the Mailing list and you can reach me via email: nils....@makible.com

[Michael Z]

Sandro, why would we all have to be bullied because one member is constantly attacking everyone? Don't leave because someone on here feels the need to be a do-gooder. We need reasonable people on here as much as we can get. His vote is as good as ours and as far as I'm concerned I've only seen him against two votes between yourself and I. I guess if we want to settle this we can always start a poll (Nils or Jon) and let the numbers speak for themselves. Nils: Perhaps we should restrict the responses to the options provided by Jon or to a vote?

Michael

[Sandro Fouche]

Thanks Nils, but I noticed not all messages from Jon make it to the blog (for instance today's message regarding early fulfillment options).
I guess I want my cake and to eat it too. I'd like all messages from the Makibox team without some of the outside commentary.

-Sandro

[Paul DiRezze]

As someone who's never used a 3d printer, will someone please explain the practical differences between filament and pellet systems?

I prefer option A.  But beyond this, I suggest Makible send everyone an email summarizing their order and asking them to optionally verify their order instructions given the current delay and other new(ish) developments.

For example:

• do nothing - makibox ships with pellet extruder when it's ready.
• ship earliest - makibox ships with filament extruder (optionally ship pellet add-on)
• optional upgrade to stainless steel

To me this seems like a better way to gather actionable information.

Just my $0.02

[Sandro Fouche]

Michael,

you are right to want to stand up for your opinions, but I have to admit I'm fed-up with the disrespect that sometimes comes from online discussions. I pretty much avoid most online forums today because the signal-to-noice ratio keeps declining, and I have better things to do with my time. I just want to keep abreast of Makibox developments without the ad hominem commentary.

I'm not going anywhere today, but if things keep going this way, I'll happily turn my attention elsewhere...

-Sandro

[Jone Brattland]

Hi,

1. Could everyone do me one simple favor? When you write a mail to ONE recipient, please don't sent that mail to the whole group.

2. Sorry for sending this to everyone ;)

3. Nice work on the printer, Jon (and the rest of the team)!

4. This mailing group has become less interesting than chatroulette without video. Please stay on topic and stop this useless and childish quarreling about everything, anything and nothing. If someone hurts your feelings or makes you feel bad,ask your mom for comfort or  just ignore their e-mails. Simple as that. mkay?

5. Have a great night everyone!

--

Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[andy turudic]

The only bullying here is people bullying Jon (bullying me is a waste of time). Step back and look at it that way. 

You are not the ones spending 18 hour days trying to get the product finished. Look at how exhausted he is in some of the demos, at how he gets brow beaten if an update is a day or two "late". 

He's too nice to say anything, he has to keep you happy while busting his butt. I don't...many of you have not done product R&D and many of you have not budgeted a business to continue it existence and make payroll vs close its doors because the founder had the trait of, as they say in Asia, having a "good heart". 

Jon's unlike many business people out there who are ruthless. Does he owe anyone an apology for "late delivery", or compensation for it? Not with the hours and innovation he's put into this - you got a lot more than $300 could ever pay for - even if you have to wait three or more more months. If you hung your business dependency on receiving something that's in the early stages of R&D, you're an....well, you know the word. I think many of you are merely using this as a bullying tool, though.

Some of you are perfectly content in only getting what you want, what you paid for, punishing him for his innovation (which takes time), and closing his doors to future innovation by taking money out of his pockets multiplied by 800, starving his business in its most fragile moment..imminent product. Denial is easy, but that's the unnecessary risk you are putting on the table.

You are all complaining about the pellet drive. I seriously doubt it caused the delays. You've been exposed to the "nifty" outcome, not the critical item. There's a ton of firmware to write, mechanisms to debug, optimizing motion control, refining cost or reliability, evening out the platen temperatures, getting a filament extruder to where no exotic and expensive plastics are used (to some of you it magically appeared and you didn't see the month or two it took to get to that stage), etc. Jon has been enthusiastic about updating you on the key innovation, the niftiest part, of the program...I doubt it caused the delays in delivering your filament printer...in fact, if you go back, you'll see filament being used in mechanism debug.

Some of you should step back and look at the big picture, not just your own. He's putting in 18 hour days for you, but it's just not enough, is it? He's getting brow beaten for his accomplishments, stressed out whether to make payroll or how to make some of you happy, everyone actually. Been there, done that - I doubt anyone in the freebie-wanting crowd ever has.

And personally attacking me? Or asking me to buy you a machine where a freebie is just not enough? Wanting to censor my input because you might have to pay, perhaps cost, for an unanticipated motor that'll make your machine run sweet? The machine design of thousands of others affected. That's water off a duck's back, but if it makes you feel better, go for it. It's zero content that's useful to Jon or anyone else. 

Not having that motor, so we can all have jams and uneven material feeds...unacceptable to me, so I will continue to express my opinion here to where you are welcome to rebut or agree. If he needs to add a $10, or $25 motor to do it right, why should he give it away (times 800)? Even to customer number 1. That's my opinion. If you think you deserve to penalize Jon for being late by getting a freebie, you can post that as you have.

This is Jon's product and Jon's business. While a vote may be illustrative of the majority's preferences, running a company is not a democracy of its shareholders or customers. This forum provides him with useful feedback, no matter how terse or nonPC the author is.

Keeping everyone happy is good business practice, which Jon is exhibiting. Cornering him on a PROPOSAL, which he didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about with his business hat on (or maybe he did..) as some kind of contractual commitment for "free"  is ludicrous, IMO. 

Many of the comments here are advising Jon not to give things away...people who know how businesses, not hobbies, are run. People who want to see more creations from this team and to avoid giving him the only recourse but to post a "sorry folks" because he was a month short of finishing the product...out of cash because he shipped 800 motors for free. But not getting "free" pisses some of you off.

The least you could do is support Jon vs bitching about the affect on yourself, stop bullying HIM, and put an end to threadjacking with personal attacks or settled issues. 

If he needs a bit more money, he shouldn't be too shy to ask for it, vs being bullied. Would you rather pay for your motor, or maybe get nothing because the company ran out of money or is not profitable? That's possible, and you won't know until a "sorry folks" posting appears one week.

We're all in this together. That's a posting NOBODY wants to see and I am suggesting we hedge our bet for success, whatever that means.

Sent from my iPhone

[Nathaniel Evry]

Hey everyone,

Stop spamming the group!!

[Austin Peasley]

If extra motors and pellet drives and such are optional extras I can pay more for *after* the development has finished and so I'm not waiting further for options I won't use, by all means go for it. But currently I'm being told to possibly pay more for an innovation I did not ask for and one that delayed a product I ordered by months upon months. I was a customer, someone who bought a product with the expectation of receiving said product in a timely fashion (Delayed somewhat due to the developmental nature of it), not an investor who can pay more and more when asked.

While nice, a far better idea would have been to develop the pellet drive after finishing the main printer and offer it as a purchaseable upgrade for those who are interested, instead of slowing the development of everything else while the kinks were worked out of the filament extruder. As has been well put previously, the opportunity cost of waiting on my hands while they fiddled around with the extruder was cost enough, and if I had been informed at purchase that the development would take another 6+ months and I would have been charged additional money for the features that I did not ask for that caused 3-5 months of the delay, I would have laughed and saved a bit more to buy something like a Makerbot instead.

As it is, my patience is somewhat low with the repeated delays, so being told not only that I should pay more than I had originally agreed upon for upgrades I had not asked for or been informed of at purchase is probably considered deceptive advertising, and saying I should be thankful/grateful is downright insulting. If I bought a car, but was informed after purchase that I was required to buy a spoiler for the back, I would be righteously indignant. I am glad Jon has been working on this, and the finished product looks like it will be fine, but insisting I should pay more than I originally agreed on for components that I did not ask for and that slowed delivery of the product I ordered is unacceptable and unprofessional.

[abs...@verizon.net]

Andy,

You said that so much better than I did! 

Cheers, Jack

[Daniel Strabley]

I just work up to 85 emails of bickering  - as much as I love this project, I think im going to take myself off the mailing list.

[John Barnhardt]

+1. Couldn't agree more - Andy's "contributions" are not consistent with most of the other respectful commentary on here.

-John

[Paul Pangrazzi]

Apologies for spamming the group, but I'd appreciate some help: I've spent too much time trying to figure out how to create a filter for discrete users that doesn't affect the entire "conversation" (in Gmail.)

If anyone feels like shooting me a direct mail to help me sort this out, I'd appreciate it.

- I want to reiterate my enthusiasm for the project, and the general community around it. Looking forward to making and sharing innovations with you in the future.

【ツ】paul

[Nils Hitze]

No 1 Rule,  don't feed the troll

That said i will close this thread because it is getting a bit annoying to repeat myself.

Nils