Re: Mosaic and M2 comparison

[David Sharp]

I typically print around 100mm/sec with excellent quality on my Mosaic.  I could probably go faster, but I'm pretty happy with where it's at.

The reason the Replicator only shows 40mm/sec is because the default firmware doesn't do acceleration, which means that to keep the bot from destroying itself, you have to limit the speed.  Rob Giesbert has written an accelerated firmware for the replicator that allows faster speeds.  I've heard of Replicators doing 150mm/sec.

Dave

[Eric U.]

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:00:12 PM UTC-7, David Sharp wrote:
I typically print around 100mm/sec with excellent quality on my Mosaic. I could probably go faster, but I'm pretty happy with where it's at.

Thanks Dave--that's great to hear.

 

The reason the Replicator only shows 40mm/sec is because the default firmware doesn't do acceleration, which means that to keep the bot from destroying itself, you have to limit the speed. Rob Giesbert has written an accelerated firmware for the replicator that allows faster speeds.  I've heard of Replicators doing 150mm/sec.

Ah, based on this info I searched around and found  http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2012/06/22/updates-replicatorg-0037-the-replicator-firmware-5-5/ which says that instead of 40mm/s flow and 55mm/s travel, the new firmware now suggests defaults of 80 and 150, a very nice improvement.

[B W Evans]

Wow! 100mm/sec is something else... what am I doing wrong? I comfortably print at about 48 on my M1 but in the 50s or 60s I start to get horrible resonance and 'echos' in the prints. If I could find some 5mm acrylic locally I would replace the top of the frame with to increase rigidity. Also have considered switching to GT2 belts and pulleys that I have laying around somewhere but havent done it yet. 

The M2 with the much more rigid frame and GT2 belts should be able of some amazing speeds and accuracy. Should be quieter too. Still trying to talk the wife into a another printer.....

-Brian

[David Sharp]

The Mosaic is really quite rigid.  100mm/sec should be quite easy to do.  What firmware are you using?  If you're using an older version of Sprinter, there were issues with getting segment pausing on curves that could make the print sound like it was stuttering and hammering at higher speeds.  Marlin or a later version of Sprinter should fix the segment pausing issue.

Dave

[Allen Jeter]

I am printing 100mm/sec no problemo on my M2 but the real star of the
show with the M2 is the print quality it's epic. Take a look made this
last night 3rd print on the newly built machine.

http://www.hacksbot.com/journal/2012/8/27/print-detail-new-makergear-m2-bigfoot.html

http://www.hacksbot.com/journal/2012/8/27/new-makergear-m2-3d-printer-in-the-hizzy-1.html

Cheers, Allen

--
Allen Jeter
Lumensa LLC
www.lumensa.com
720 975 6717

[B W Evans]

Allen, that m2 is looking great! Astonishing how smooth and quiet that thing is. Rick has outdone himself... there's not a printer out there built to that standard.

David... yeah Im running Marlin RC2 with one form of slic3r or another (haven't liked the most recent versions b/c they slice weirdly). The noise is not so much electro-mechanical as it is mechanical. There seems to be some weirdness especially in the x axis causing it to not run as smooth. If I hold on to the frame while printing it seems to quieten up but otherwise no amount of bolt tightening seems to do any justice. Im not sure at what speed I just finally gave up on (because the harmonics were crazy at 60 and up) so maybe I just need to have a try at 100 and see what happens. 

I also just laser cut a new frame today out of much better wood (sorry Rick but there is no way the wood of my M1 was birch) and Im curious what happens with just rebuilding it. Maybe even gluing it together...?

-Brian

[Rick Pollack]

Let me see a photo of the frame....a lot of the M1s were oak ply (oak on one face and luan on the other). The Z platform can be tricky to get right...

[Eric U.]

Are you printing PLA or ABS?  I'd expect higher speeds from PLA than ABS, from what I've read [no printer yet...waiting for my M2!].

[Rick Pollack]

Some people obsess over layer thickness so, time permitting, we are doing some testing. Here is yoda's face printed in ABS at 0.02mm layer thickness (with a quarter for size reference). (image is at 25% compression)

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Robert Engelhart <expediti...@gmail.com> wrote:

I got my M2 about 2 weeks ago. I sold my old mosaic on ebay 4 months ago to help pay for it, so 3 - 4 months with no printer sucked. Anyway the mosaic was and is a great printer. So  here is my quick mosaic to M2 review.

 

1. The build size on the mosaic simply got to small, more and more objects I wanted to print were simply to big, that problem is gone on the M2, it's close to 6 times the build area as the mosaic.  NOTE you start to use lots I mean lots more plastic with a larger printer, keep that in mind.

 

2. The wood frame on the mosaic, I never liked the wood I know it's cheap and quick to make, but wood is simply not a good idea for a precision device for obvious reasons. The M2 frame is simply amazing, you could stand on it, the thing is built like a tank. The M2 build platform is so sturdy compaired to the mosaic, the mosaic will move quite a bit if you grab it buy hand the m2 platform simply stays put, it's one well built unit.

 

3. The mosaic z axis, I think the z axis was the mosaic weakness, that is gone on the M2. Note the M2 z axis motor gets very very hot, I put a small fan on mine as well as adjusted the firmware for the rambo pcb and lowered the current from 135 to 115, still works perfect and motor runs way cooler.

 

4. Print speed. I print most everything at .1mm and on my mosaic about 35-45mm/sec was as fast as it could go with great print results any faster and print results would suffer. On the M2 I can run at 100mm/sec with great results and could possibly go higher some day if I adjust the pla temps and slic3r settings.  I will try to print at .075 and .05 this weekend just to see what this thing can do.  My head move speed when it moving from one area to another is 175mm/sec I think the mosaic may simply fall over at that speed.

 

I can't say enough good things about the M2, in my opinion it's the best home 3D printer on the market, I have a friend with the replicator and it's nice but when you see them both it's no contest the M2 is just build to a higher standard than any wood printer.  But boy does this thing eat lots of PLA. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:20:53 AM UTC-5, Eric U. wrote:

I'm looking around at 3D printers, probably going to buy my first one soon.  I've seen so many people raving about MakerGear and the Mosaic that the M2 is high on my list of possibilities.  However, there's not a lot of info about it around.  Is it basically going to run at the same quality+speed as the Mosaic, or dare I hope that the metal frame will make things even more stable/smooth?  Does it use all the same hardware, or did it have to scale that up with the size of the frame?

What is the typical speed of the Mosaic, while I'm asking?  http://www.protoparadigm.com/blog/2012/02/comparing-3d-printers/ claims 150mm/s, but doesn't say whether that's a theoretical maximum with low quality, or something that most users can achieve.  It puts 300mm/s for the Ultimaker, and I know that's not typical, but then it lists 40mm/s for the Replicator, which is straight off their website and probably quite common.

What's your everyday good-enough-quality speed?  What's your best-quality speed?

Any info would be helpful.

Thanks,

      Eric

--
Rick Pollack
MakerGear
23632 Mercantile Rd.
Unit D-Rear
Beachwood, OH 44122
216-346-6127

[Rick Pollack]

Josh printed that....I just watched

[John Wilkinson]

Wow... That is amazing, can't even tell it wasn't molded. Thanks for sharing Rick.

[Allen Jeter]

Wow great job Josh.

Please please please Josh share the ini file for the print.

[B W Evans]

Robert, your assessment is pretty spot on. It does have its problems but I love that little Mosaic and Ive had 2 cupcakes, an MG prusa, a huxley, and I almost completed a wallace. The M1 just beats them all as an overall machine. I've just upgraded to GT2 oulleys and belts on the M1 and remade the frame so we will see how that goes. I would love to use some flanged linear bearings and waterjet cut aluminum z stage ala M2 but by the time Ive gone through that much work I probably should just buy an M2.

Eric, I think you would be hard pressed to find something better than the M2. Before buying the M1 I needed a more reliable printer to get through the Practical 3D Printers book so I was chatting with Alex over at ProtoParadigm. (Great filament btw.) If you look at the posts theyve made of various printers, including the most recent Printrbot post, you'll see that they are also really fond of the M1. Because it was so fast to setup and get calibrated it was a simple decision and one I have no regrets on. (In 2 evenings, about 6 hrs total, Ive completely torn down the M1 and rebuilt it this week!) I imagine the M2 will only be worlds better and even more reliable. 

Rick, fantastic results! Whatever happened to getting netfabb engine up and running on the Mosaic?

[Eric U.]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 6:32:27 PM UTC-7, B W Evans wrote:

Eric, I think you would be hard pressed to find something better than the M2.

No worries; I ordered mine last week ;'>. 

[Joshua Wills]

That is not a typo. 0.02mm, 20 microns.  50 layers per mm, 1270 layers per inch.  I have also printed at 0.01mm layer height, but it requires more tweaking and far more time than 0.02mm, so I do not have any good prints to show off.  Yet.

[Rick Pollack]

josh typically prints in the .1 to .3 mm range though.

[Triffid Hunter]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Adam <adm...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> I'm new to 3D printing and really considering buying an M2, but 0.02mm? as
> in 20 microns? ... I've been lookign around and I've only ever seen 100
> microns as the "thoretical finest" measure of resolution for most printers.
> even the $30k professional ones. thats not a typo? cuz if it isnt. thats
> amazing, and I'm sold!.. or.. you've sold... me.... a printer.

I've printed down to 50 microns successfully on my prusa with 3mm
filament... I'm sure I could do 20 microns easily if I were using
1.75mm filament.

There's even several folk who have done 10 micron layers and had success.

If you want to try it, you can't use sparse fill.. must use either
>=95% or hollow. At these layer heights, we're laying down a film
rather than a bead so it doesn't stretch across open space. When
slic3r issue #240 is completed that may change ;)

We surpassed the quality of commercial FDM machines quite a while ago ;)

[Eric U.]

No, I'm still anxiously awaiting my M2.  I'll be sure to post once I've got the printer in hand and can give it a full workout.  In the mean time I'm working on my modeling code like crazy to get it ready for the prints I have planned.

     Eric

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 9:08:16 PM UTC-7, Kamalesh Viswanatha wrote:

Eric,

by now you should have enough prints to share you thoughts, will help others like me :) ...

@ 25lbs shipping itself is enough to scare the heck out of me (International) apart from customs etc etc... so i should be saying you are lucky to Just Buy It !!! :)

Regards,

Kamalnv

[lars]

Brian, 

Can you share a little about what you did to upgrade the M1? I was looking at it, but struggled to find a good idler pulley that fits the existing idler assembly (currently for the X-axis). 

Best regards, 

Lars

[B W Evans]

Lars-

Just noticed your message! Im using a pair of R188ZZ bearings from http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/R188ZZ for each idler (stacked on top of each other) using the standard 1/4" shoulder screws and shaft collars plus a few washers. Actually I upgraded the Y-axis with a longer shoulder screw so that it goes through the bottom for better rigidity. These bearings have almost the same OD as the 18 tooth GT2 pulleys Im using and the movement is so much smoother its unbelievable. Still have a little echo in the prints which tells me that I need the belts to be tighter but first I need to redesign the plastic M1 parts so that I can print replacements. Mine are cracking left and right and my extruder motor holder on the x-carriage broke right in half the other day. Once I get everything redesigned and tested Ill be posting an upgrade pack for the M1 on Thingiverse.

Cheers-

Brian

[lars]

Brian, 

Thank you, never thought of that. I will try to see how that works out for me too - great tip. 

/Lars