WHAT on earth is causing this??? Replicator 2 freaking out

[Bill]

My R2 is only a couple of weeks old. It has quite suddenly developed a
behavior that I cannot fix.

In short, the bot was finishing up a print and I got out my phone to shoot
some video of the completion. I started the video. Things were moving
along fine. At the very end, when the bot was moving the extruder out of
the way, the extruder began to shudder violently. I attached a video of
this incident.

I was hoping it was just a one-time quirk isolated to the end of this
particular build. It is not. Every time I begin a build, it shudders the
same way and tries to slam itself into the right side of the bot.

The axes all move freely by hand. Jog runs smoothly sometimes. Usually,
what happens is that it starts off ok, then. starts to shudder again.

I attempted to reset the motherboard to factory settings via Makerware. It
reported "cannot find eeprom table". I reflashed the firmware (7.0-->7.0)
just to make sure it wasn't corrupted somehow. Result was that the problem
is still there.

So, what do I do now? Time for a new motherboard? Mechanically,
everything seems in order. In fact, looking at the video, it looks very
much like a control problem, not, a mechanical failure.

HELP!

[Jetguy]

Easy, you have a broken stepper cable to the motor. When it flexes in
certain positions, all 4 wires make contact and the motor works as
expected. When any one of the wires is disconnected then a stepper
motor does exactly what you describe.

Contact MakerBot support.

And Melody, do us a favor and report this to QC. This is the second or
third such posting with the EXACT same failure in less than a week.
One can easily deduce there is a manufacturing issue when we see
repeats like this. Also makes one question long term reliability?

Also, maybe a really good thing to put in the troubleshooting guide on
how to diagnose.

We don't have a "sticky" function here and I'm tired of typing this
response over and over.

>  IMG_1290.MOV
> 3569KViewDownload

[Bill]

Ah. Ok. I'll contact support. It happens when I jog x or y, intermittently.

I'll look into this

Thanks!

[Jetguy]

That's worrying. I could see the issue being on X, it has a cable that
flexes. Y on the other hand is a fixed cable at the back corner of the
bot. No good reason for it to go bad.

[Bill]

Perhaps just loose on the mighty board side?

[Jetguy]

I'm doubting it but you have the bot in front of you so it's hard to
guess.

Again, it's getting common to see stepper cable failures on the X axis
and with a somewhat sound reason that that cable does move and flex.
The same rule doesn't apply to the Y motor as it's fixed. In general
the molex used at the controller board end is fairly robust with
larger pins. One could have a poor crimp but 2 cables on the same bot
is pushing the luck factor here. I could see the tiny terminal crimps
at the motor end being problematic but almost assume the wire would
actually come out since the wires are bent coming out of those
connectors in the bot. Anything is possible but this doesn't look good
for QC and even worse for long term reliability.

You said the motion is free on both axis, and the fact when you jog,
it works sometimes and then becomes intermittent definitely points to
this scenario. In the chain you have the stepper driver, the cable and
then the motor itself. What they might ask you to do is unload the
filament and plug one of the extruder motors into those ports for the
failing axis. If that motor does it, then the botstep or driver is
bad. Bacially, you have to test with known good parts to figure out
what is bad.

[John Watson]

is that not when its creating the infill at speed ..as mine shudders ..but it seems only to be part of the infill process ???

[Bill]

Ok...problem solved. Turns out that when I said the axes moved freely, in reality, they intermittently moved freely. I was just manually moving them back and forth and after several complete cycles, the y axis wouldn't move. I jiggled it, and it moved...then jammed again. I looked more closely and the pulley at the top left rear backed out its set screw to the point of interfering with movement. I put it back where it belongs and it now prints normally, again.

I'm not sure if my broken end-stop is even related to this, but, in any case, I still need a replacement.

Thanks VERY much for your help, Jetguy.

Bill

[Bill]

No, it was much more violent than that. Read my other post...it's fixed.

Cheers

[John Watson]

whoooppee Happy printing again :-)

[Kletus VanDamme]

Jetguy,

Thanks a lot for your prompt reply.

I started jiggling some wires and it turns out that when I jiggle the stepper motor cable, I get the jogs.

I will contact Support.

Here are some pics...

[Jetguy]

Glad it helped. Please don't take offense to my search before posting
comment. I know you guys aren't intentionally creating new threads,
you likely just didn't know.

On Jan 16, 11:59 pm, Kletus VanDamme <matt.hill.em...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Jetguy,
> Thanks a lot for your prompt reply.
> I started jiggling some wires and it turns out that when I jiggle the
> stepper motor cable, I get the jogs.
> I will contact Support.
> Here are some pics...
>

> <https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EVat12slcEE/UPeExDHgPgI/AAAAAAAAAP...><https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qyeMDa5VDso/UPeE0WTyYXI/AAAAAAAAAP...>

[Matt Hill]

Chris,

I suggest you try and wiggle the X motor cable while you manually jog.

This helped me identify the cable as the problem on my machine.

- Matt

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Christopher W <chrisw...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I am having a similar issue.  I am not sure why, but when I installed firmware 7.0 my Replicator 2 has an issue with the x axis control.  The stepper makes a load noise when traveling in the x and it even does so when I am just controlling it manually via the control panel in RepG.  I put the old 6.2 firmware back on and no problems.  Does this sound like what is going on with anybody's' machines.  I made a quick video to help explain.  Any ideas on whats going on with my machine on 7.0?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pj-I-EMGDU

Thanks
Chris

--
 
 

[whpthomas]

Another possibility is do a preference reset in ReplicatorG. I tried to control my upgraded Replicator 2 after the 7.0 firmware upgrade and it would start jogging on two axes at once. The reset seems to have fixed this. Another thing - are you printing from the DS card - need to save as x3g not s3g with 7.0 firmware - but you probably already know this.

[Christopher W]

I tried wiggling the wire a lot and there is no effect.  I am going to try wiring it to the other stepper then manually jogging it to try and rule out a stepper problem.  Then I will try reflashing if testing concludes that it is not a stepper problem.  Is there anything unique I have to do to flash 7.0 again or is it the same as the first time (updating from repg)?

Thanks,
Chris

[Christopher W]

ok.  After attaching the X axis stepper cable to the Y axis the Y axis stepper shook and made the same noise.  It seems like it is either the connections or the firmware being buggy.  I submitted a support ticket for this 3 days ago, but no reply from MakerBot, wonder why.

[Christopher W]

Matt, you were 100% right.  After playing with it more we found a short in the middle of the wire.  Video below.  It was under the spring pin too, that's why I didn't see it until I took the pin out.  Weird that it failed behind a pin and not in a  fatigue area.  I hope the Makerbot team has a plan to fix this as I am currently splicing and rewiring, but I don't want to have to do this to all the wires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4kVC4mmKpE

Thanks so much for the input!

Chris W

[Jetguy]

Posted in the other thread too, do not let one arc like that as you
will blow up the stepper driver really fast. Also, that's an open, not
a short.

On Jan 17, 10:49 pm, Christopher W <chriswlez...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matt, you were 100% right.  After playing with it more we found a short in
> the middle of the wire.  Video below.  It was under the spring pin too,
> that's why I didn't see it until I took the pin out.  Weird that it failed
> behind a pin and not in a  fatigue area.  I hope the Makerbot team has a
> plan to fix this as I am currently splicing and rewiring, but I don't want
> to have to do this to all the wires.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4kVC4mmKpE
>
> Thanks so much for the input!
>
> Chris W
>
>
>
> On Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:20:32 AM UTC-6, Kletus VanDamme wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> > I suggest you try and wiggle the X motor cable while you manually jog.
> > This helped me identify the cable as the problem on my machine.
>
> > - Matt
>

> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Christopher W <chrisw...@gmail.com<javascript:>

> > > wrote:
>
> >> I am not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I am having a
> >> similar issue.  I am not sure why, but when I installed firmware 7.0 my
> >> Replicator 2 has an issue with the x axis control.  The stepper makes a
> >> load noise when traveling in the x and it even does so when I am just
> >> controlling it manually via the control panel in RepG.  I put the old 6.2
> >> firmware back on and no problems.  Does this sound like what is going on
> >> with anybody's' machines.  I made a quick video to help explain.  Any ideas
> >> on whats going on with my machine on 7.0?
>
> >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pj-I-EMGDU
>
> >> Thanks
> >> Chris
>
> >> On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:14:28 PM UTC-6, Jetguy wrote:
>
> >>> Glad it helped. Please don't take offense to my search before posting
> >>> comment. I know you guys aren't intentionally creating new threads,
> >>> you likely just didn't know.
>
> >>> On Jan 16, 11:59 pm, Kletus VanDamme <matt.hill.em...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > Jetguy,
> >>> > Thanks a lot for your prompt reply.
> >>> > I started jiggling some wires and it turns out that when I jiggle the
> >>> > stepper motor cable, I get the jogs.
> >>> > I will contact Support.
> >>> > Here are some pics...
>

> >>> > <https://lh4.**googleusercontent.com/-**EVat12slcEE/UPeExDHgPgI/**
> >>> AAAAAAAAAP..<https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EVat12slcEE/UPeExDHgPgI/AAAAAAAAAP..>
> >>> .><https://lh3.**googleusercontent.com/-**qyeMDa5VDso/UPeE0WTyYXI/**
> >>> AAAAAAAAAP..<https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qyeMDa5VDso/UPeE0WTyYXI/AAAAAAAAAP..>.>

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Posted in the other thread too, do not let one arc like that as you
will blow up the stepper driver really fast. Also, that's an open, not
a short.

Perhaps a better lay term is that its a faulty wire that needs fixing (if you have the skills) or replacing (if you don't) - and leave it at that. 

[Jose DeMille]

It may not be the motor wire harness, as Jet suggested (although he is probably correct as I have 2 machines and one is on its 3rd harness the other one is on a 2nd harness)

Before you request a replacement harness, take a look at the X and Y limit switches, there should be a red LED that lights up when the machine hits the designed end stop of the machine.  If the LED does not light up when the machine is shuddering an adjustment of the axis limit switch(s) may be necessary.

I have found that just a light manual operation of the limit switch with your finger will resolve the problem.  Or try slightly bending the thin metal limit switch tab with a needle nose pliers out toward the carriage so that it engages the switch earlier.

Cheers!
Jose

[Jetguy]

"Perhaps a better lay term is that its a faulty wire that needs fixing
(if
you have the skills) or replacing (if you don't) - and leave it at
that."

It's just my thought that OK, the person doesn't know, let's educate
at least one point of knowledge past the current problem. And since
they have a problem that might require use of a multimeter and I would
further use such technical terminology in the troubleshooting and
testing paragraph. Even MakerBot support at some point might have to
say or ask the same terminology on the phone.

Further, I'm letting my own bias out here, but I'm pretty sure basic
electricity is still taught in schools. I personally expect most
people in the world to be able to understand what open circuit means
VS a short. If not, your school system has failed you. No point in
letting that continue when a person has a CNC in front of them? I hold
people to a higher standard in hopes that it rubs off. We need higher
standards.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Further, I'm letting my own bias out here, but I'm pretty sure basic
electricity is still taught in schools. I personally expect most
people in the world to be able to understand what open circuit means
VS a short. If not, your school system has failed you. No point in
letting that continue when a person has a CNC in front of them? I hold
people to a higher standard in hopes that it rubs off. We need higher
standards.

 

Fair enough, higher standards it is - does that mean I have to wear shoes and leave my parrot outside?

[Jetguy]

Oops I stepped in parrot poop!
Yes, please wear shoes in case you step in it too.

[Kletus VanDamme]

I now have a second Replicator2 (that my boss bought) and it is following in the footsteps of my first.

The X-axis ribbon cable is failing causing skipping prints:

http://3dprinterstories.blogspot.com/2013/02/replicator2-dead-x-axis-cable-again.html

Does anyone know where I can order a 10 inch section of the cable that plugs into the X-axis stepper?

I don't feel like replacing the entire harness, I just want to install a little disposable piece that I can replace quickly when it fails next time.

Thanks.

- Matt

[tunell]

Add me to the list of people this is happening to.

HOWEVER

I decided to do some digging and found that the issue is at the small bend point where the X axis wire enters the strain relief channel. If you watch it print, you can see this point flexes over and over again, perhaps thousands of times per print. I pulled what I suspected to be a faulty cable out of the channel and noticed there was a contact wear mark across all for conductors here (indicating a potential problem)

I disconnected the cable from the stepper and cut all 4 wires about an inch farther up past this mark.

I then carefully stripped the insulation off below that mark and pulled the insulation past the wear mark.

Lo and behold, ALL BUT ONE of the 4 leads was completely broken at that same exact point. 

This is a critical failure point. I (temporarily) resolved the issue by reconnecting the leads and letting them dangle rather than pass through the strain relief channel. We'll see if this works.

And BTW, I will NOT be passing an more cables through that channel, butinstead let them dangle under the stepper under gravity.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

If you want to be pre-emptive, here are instructions for installing a strain relief - which is so far holding up on my Rep 2

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/makerbot/0reFv3QO42g/FlT5LRh9VgMJ 

[Matt Hill]

Here is my strain relief approach for my X-axis stepper motor ribbon cable fix.

http://3dprinterstories.blogspot.com/2013/02/rerouted-x-axis-stepper-motor.html

It was intended to be a quick and dirty fix to get my bot running, but it turned out to be very durable.

Because of the long droop, the cable experiences very little flexing.

If I can get the connector model from MBI, I'll make a disposable section that I can easily swap out when the wires fatigue.

- Matt

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Wingcommander whpthomas <m...@henri.net> wrote:

If you want to be pre-emptive, here are instructions for installing a strain relief - which is so far holding up on my Rep 2

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/makerbot/0reFv3QO42g/FlT5LRh9VgMJ 

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[Wingcommander whpthomas]

I agree I think an inline terminal ribbon connector block at each end so you could replace the middle bit of it fails would have be a much better approach - just not sure if there is anything that will handle two stacked ribbons.