Stratasys Dimension -vs- Replicator
1,409 views
Skip to first unread message
PropellerScience
Sep 21, 2012, 7:17:25 PM9/21/12
to MakerBot Operators
Today a couple reps. came in to work to talk to us about their
Stratasys Dimension 3D Printers, show us the model they built for us,
and various other models. I hope this doesn't get too long, but I'm
excited!
The machines he showed us were approximately $22K-$44K, and they
looked like they were worth every penny. Very nice machines indeed.
They have a disposable unheated acrylic build platform, and use ABS
filament. The platforms are unheated, but there are hot air jets that
blow air around the chamber at about 70C. The extruder runs about
300C. The rep said they're now using ABS+ plastic (whatever that is)
which is about 40% stronger than regular ABS, and soluble supports,
although the low end model only had break away supports. The machines
have two, or three layer height choices, and are within the .10mm-.
27mm range of the Replicator. The samples they brought in looked very
nice, and were strong. I like those machines quite a bit.
How do they compare to the Replicator?
From a hardware standpoint there is no comparison, the Dimensions are
much better, but that's where it stops. My out of the box print
quality with the Replicator was every bit as good as the Dimension.
They have a bigger build platform, but for the stuff I'm making that's
not an issue. With dual extrusion the upgrade path to soluble supports
should be fairly easy, too. On the model they built for us there are
holes in the vertical walls, and it showed signs of "ringing". You
know, the ghost-like patterns of the circles next to the holes. I
asked what the drive was, and he said it was belt driven, so that
probably explains it. One thing I did note was that I don't seem to
have the same vertical layer strength. Maybe it's a tweak to the
settings, or maybe it's the ABS+ plastic they used.
I am very happy to be a Replicator owner today! Hooray! After the
meeting some of the mechanical engineers stopped by my cube to look at
my models, and they agreed that what I was making was every bit as
good as what they saw from the other machine. Before long they were
asking themselves why we couldn't just get a Replicator instead. I
showed them a picture of the new Replicator2, and they were very
impressed.
I wish I had my latest creation so I could take a picture of it. It's
a little clip-on device with spring probes in it on 0.1" centers that
contact the pads of a PCB so you don't have to disassemble the stack
to wire and test it. It will save Production a lot of time during
testing.
I just wanted to tell everyone that our machines can and do produce
top quality parts that rival the big boys right out of the box.
Now I gotta read Simon Rockman's article!
Stratasys Dimension 3D Printers, show us the model they built for us,
and various other models. I hope this doesn't get too long, but I'm
excited!
The machines he showed us were approximately $22K-$44K, and they
looked like they were worth every penny. Very nice machines indeed.
They have a disposable unheated acrylic build platform, and use ABS
filament. The platforms are unheated, but there are hot air jets that
blow air around the chamber at about 70C. The extruder runs about
300C. The rep said they're now using ABS+ plastic (whatever that is)
which is about 40% stronger than regular ABS, and soluble supports,
although the low end model only had break away supports. The machines
have two, or three layer height choices, and are within the .10mm-.
27mm range of the Replicator. The samples they brought in looked very
nice, and were strong. I like those machines quite a bit.
How do they compare to the Replicator?
From a hardware standpoint there is no comparison, the Dimensions are
much better, but that's where it stops. My out of the box print
quality with the Replicator was every bit as good as the Dimension.
They have a bigger build platform, but for the stuff I'm making that's
not an issue. With dual extrusion the upgrade path to soluble supports
should be fairly easy, too. On the model they built for us there are
holes in the vertical walls, and it showed signs of "ringing". You
know, the ghost-like patterns of the circles next to the holes. I
asked what the drive was, and he said it was belt driven, so that
probably explains it. One thing I did note was that I don't seem to
have the same vertical layer strength. Maybe it's a tweak to the
settings, or maybe it's the ABS+ plastic they used.
I am very happy to be a Replicator owner today! Hooray! After the
meeting some of the mechanical engineers stopped by my cube to look at
my models, and they agreed that what I was making was every bit as
good as what they saw from the other machine. Before long they were
asking themselves why we couldn't just get a Replicator instead. I
showed them a picture of the new Replicator2, and they were very
impressed.
I wish I had my latest creation so I could take a picture of it. It's
a little clip-on device with spring probes in it on 0.1" centers that
contact the pads of a PCB so you don't have to disassemble the stack
to wire and test it. It will save Production a lot of time during
testing.
I just wanted to tell everyone that our machines can and do produce
top quality parts that rival the big boys right out of the box.
Now I gotta read Simon Rockman's article!
Dan Newman
Sep 21, 2012, 7:38:47 PM9/21/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
> and it showed signs of "ringing". You
>
> know, the ghost-like patterns of the circles next to the holes.
where there is a sharp change of direction. In those cases, the
ringing tends to be vibration caused by taking the direction change
too fast.
Dan
Sean Tu
Sep 21, 2012, 7:47:19 PM9/21/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
I would have brought in a print and ask the reps who came in "I can get one of your machines or 11-22 of this one, and, the engineers say the cheaper one is good enough. How am I supposed to justify buying your machine to the money guys?"
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To post to this group, send email to make...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot?hl=en.
Luis E. Rodriguez
Sep 21, 2012, 7:47:47 PM9/21/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
You will spend loads of money on DRM'd filament cartridges, disposable build plates, and the acid for the support station. It is a an awesome machine, the uPrint Plus is probably one of the models. ABS+ just melts at a higher temp, like 270C or something? The chamber goes to like 70C I think? It is wicked but ultimately a wallet drain. Depends on your line of work and dimensional accuracy needed. I think you could do it with a replicator and save your money.
PropellerScience
Sep 21, 2012, 7:53:51 PM9/21/12
to MakerBot Operators
"I would have brought in a print and ask the reps who came in "I can
get one
of your machines or 11-22 of this one, "
Me and a coworker whispered about getting a Replicator print to show
get one
of your machines or 11-22 of this one, "
the rep, but decided it wasn't very tactful. Yes, I wanted to show
him, but we were in a professional setting at the time. Now if I was
at a trade show....
jesse.d...@gmail.com
Sep 21, 2012, 11:02:36 PM9/21/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
Bummer. :-)
I haven't had significant experience with the pro-grade printers, and I'd really like to hear their pitch for why they are worth the price. I guess tradeshows work for that too, though. Maybe I'll grill the 3D systems folks at the next maker faire.
Jesse
I haven't had significant experience with the pro-grade printers, and I'd really like to hear their pitch for why they are worth the price. I guess tradeshows work for that too, though. Maybe I'll grill the 3D systems folks at the next maker faire.
Jesse
gth
Sep 22, 2012, 7:54:42 AM9/22/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
Invite the rep out for a beer and show them one of your printed models.
They might open up and mention memos to move product sooner rather than later, before word gets around. :))
- G.
Joseph Chiu
Sep 23, 2012, 7:32:05 PM9/23/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
If the Replicator 2 comes out being a "no touch" machine that works every time, the Dimension folks will be toast. This time, I think the big-iron reps know that the personal revolution is coming.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/makerbot/-/3ilhzvg0WVkJ.
Adan Akerman
Sep 23, 2012, 8:48:34 PM9/23/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
A nice local couple is representing Strasys. They invited me to their garage showroom and were generous with their time and info. But they got very quiet when I showed them my half-scaled hedgehog printed at 0.1mm layers. They'd been MakerBot bashing prior to that, but based on their experience with a cupcake from a while back.
Yes, if prints like that can come from the replicator 2 without the tweaking and maintenance I had to stir into the mix, for sure: it's gonna be fun to watch. Easy soluble support is the last thing they have to offer, and that differentiator is going to fall soon too.
Have Blue
Sep 24, 2012, 10:07:20 PM9/24/12
to MakerBot Operators
ABS+ (also known as P430 in older literature - standard Stratasys ABS
is P400) is a Methyl Methacrylate ABS - specifically SABIC MG94
resin. The Fortus machines can make even stronger parts than the
Dimension series with the exact same material (ABS+ is called ABS-M30
in the Fortus line) due to tighter toolpaths. Hence, the Fortus
machines run a little slower than their Dimension counterparts. Of
course, you're looking at $45k for the cheapest Fortus (the 250mc,
which isn't much more than a Dimension 1200es)
Stratasys machines are also artificially limited by software to much
coarser layer heights than what they can actually achieve - they can
mechanically do finer resolution, and were doing 127 micron prints in
the mid-90s. By poking at the firmware, you can make a Stratasys
printer think it's a higher-end model than it actually is. At least
with a Makerbot, you have full control over the hardware and can drive
it to the edge if you so desire.
Yes, Stratasys material cartridges are 'chipped'. However, people
have been using a workaround for some time:
http://gnurds.com/index.php/2012/09/14/stratasys-dimension-sst-768-hacking/
On the flip side, Stratasys does their own filament extrusion in-house
and have excellent quality control - the generic Chi Mei PA-747
extruded filament is all over the map in terms of tolerances (to say
nothing of the fact that it needs an immense amount of torque to feed,
being an extrusion grade material rather than injection molding
grade). Stratasys also discovered long ago that humidity is very bad
for filament, and keeping the filament as dry as possible is very
important - Makerbot and the like have yet to discover this:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6268999&contentType=Conference+Publications&queryText%3DMoisture+effects+on+the+ABS+used+for+Fused+Deposition+Modeling
Stratasys still has an advantage in these areas:
1) Ease of use. Admittedly, I haven't seen much recently on the
Makerbot side, but for Stratasys Insight, it's under 10 mouseclicks
from STL to print. Even with horrid, clunky, outdated software
(Quickslice - yuck) that looked like an awful port from a Sun system,
I only needed 10 minutes of instruction to be up and running. I'm
hoping that with all the furor over open/closed source that MakerWare
at least presents a minimal number of steps from "art to part".
2) Heated chamber vs. heated bed. Stratasys machines heat the entire
envelope instead of just the build platform. As such, you have the
same stresses across the entire part on a Stratasys machine, as the
part is built in a thermally isotropic manner. Adding panels to a
Makerbot helps, but in order to minimize warp and ensure dimensional
accuracy, you need to heat everything equally.
3) Support. If you have an active support contract and have a problem
with your printer, you can have a Stratasys technician at your door.
Makerbot can only provide phone support. Excellent, top-notch, world-
class phone support, but it's not a warm body hovering over your
printer, trying to determine what's wrong.
4) As Adan mentioned, soluble support. Given that ifeelbeta's testing
with PLA as a support material is now about 2 years old (http://
www.makerbot.com/blog/2010/10/19/pla-proven-as-a-dissolveable-support-material/),
I'm rather surprised that support material extrusion is still highly
experimental. This, IMHO, will be the biggest thing that Makerbot can
bring to the table - if they can introduce a reliable soluble support
system, they will truly be a major threat to Stratasys. At that
point, Stratasys will have to be quite happy with the Objet merger, as
photopolymers will be the next logical frontier for commercial 3D
printers (yet just as quickly encroached upon by open source efforts).
- Michael
haveblue.org
is P400) is a Methyl Methacrylate ABS - specifically SABIC MG94
resin. The Fortus machines can make even stronger parts than the
Dimension series with the exact same material (ABS+ is called ABS-M30
in the Fortus line) due to tighter toolpaths. Hence, the Fortus
machines run a little slower than their Dimension counterparts. Of
course, you're looking at $45k for the cheapest Fortus (the 250mc,
which isn't much more than a Dimension 1200es)
Stratasys machines are also artificially limited by software to much
coarser layer heights than what they can actually achieve - they can
mechanically do finer resolution, and were doing 127 micron prints in
the mid-90s. By poking at the firmware, you can make a Stratasys
printer think it's a higher-end model than it actually is. At least
with a Makerbot, you have full control over the hardware and can drive
it to the edge if you so desire.
Yes, Stratasys material cartridges are 'chipped'. However, people
have been using a workaround for some time:
http://gnurds.com/index.php/2012/09/14/stratasys-dimension-sst-768-hacking/
On the flip side, Stratasys does their own filament extrusion in-house
and have excellent quality control - the generic Chi Mei PA-747
extruded filament is all over the map in terms of tolerances (to say
nothing of the fact that it needs an immense amount of torque to feed,
being an extrusion grade material rather than injection molding
grade). Stratasys also discovered long ago that humidity is very bad
for filament, and keeping the filament as dry as possible is very
important - Makerbot and the like have yet to discover this:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6268999&contentType=Conference+Publications&queryText%3DMoisture+effects+on+the+ABS+used+for+Fused+Deposition+Modeling
Stratasys still has an advantage in these areas:
1) Ease of use. Admittedly, I haven't seen much recently on the
Makerbot side, but for Stratasys Insight, it's under 10 mouseclicks
from STL to print. Even with horrid, clunky, outdated software
(Quickslice - yuck) that looked like an awful port from a Sun system,
I only needed 10 minutes of instruction to be up and running. I'm
hoping that with all the furor over open/closed source that MakerWare
at least presents a minimal number of steps from "art to part".
2) Heated chamber vs. heated bed. Stratasys machines heat the entire
envelope instead of just the build platform. As such, you have the
same stresses across the entire part on a Stratasys machine, as the
part is built in a thermally isotropic manner. Adding panels to a
Makerbot helps, but in order to minimize warp and ensure dimensional
accuracy, you need to heat everything equally.
3) Support. If you have an active support contract and have a problem
with your printer, you can have a Stratasys technician at your door.
Makerbot can only provide phone support. Excellent, top-notch, world-
class phone support, but it's not a warm body hovering over your
printer, trying to determine what's wrong.
4) As Adan mentioned, soluble support. Given that ifeelbeta's testing
with PLA as a support material is now about 2 years old (http://
www.makerbot.com/blog/2010/10/19/pla-proven-as-a-dissolveable-support-material/),
I'm rather surprised that support material extrusion is still highly
experimental. This, IMHO, will be the biggest thing that Makerbot can
bring to the table - if they can introduce a reliable soluble support
system, they will truly be a major threat to Stratasys. At that
point, Stratasys will have to be quite happy with the Objet merger, as
photopolymers will be the next logical frontier for commercial 3D
printers (yet just as quickly encroached upon by open source efforts).
- Michael
haveblue.org
Joseph Chiu
Sep 24, 2012, 10:58:05 PM9/24/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
Yeah, the b9creator has already started down that path. I'm now waiting for the powder-binding Z-corp approach to come along, too.
Matt Westervelt
Sep 24, 2012, 11:23:36 PM9/24/12
to make...@googlegroups.com
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages