Canola Oil!!! Holy *&@!

[David Mytchak]

First - thank you wpthomas for this tip!!!

I have been having issues printing lately too ( been posting here and thank you everyone! This group is a life saver ) with my Replicator 2 and came across a posting from wpthomas ( THANK YOU ).   He used just a dab of Canola oil on the filament prior to loading it in his Replicator 2.  I can testify that this has totally reconditioned, blessed, removed demons, etc from my Replicator 2.   Canola oil + Firmware 7.0 = one happy camper (at least until the next failed print ).

I wanted to post my results.   

-David

P.S. And no foul odors!

[whpthomas]

I love the smell of canola & PLA in the morning - smells like victory!

[David Mytchak]

Haha. Just finished my second print!

Smooth as silk! Thank you so much for this tip. I liked it so much... I started this thread ;)

[whpthomas]

I had wondered at first if vegetable oil would effect the print strength, but I see no evidence of this. So I look at it like this, PLA is like high-tech cheese - if you melt cheese in a pan with oil, the oil and cheese separate, and the cheese melts and bonds together - I figure the hot PLA and vegetable oil do a similar thing - the oil ( and it is only a very small amount) moves to the outer surface as the filament bonds due to it higher viscosity and the changing surface tension.

[Chris Milnes]

Do you do this on each print? or is the theory that the oil is being delivered to the grub wheel and delrin plunger and keeps them happy for many prints?   

[whpthomas]

I just do it when I load a new reel of troublesome PLA (white and clear) - or I guess if I heard the drive gear creaking and clicking I might pull up the feeder tube and add a bit - but only the smallest amount - literally just a dab on the tip of my finger. 

From what I understand these vegetable oils only burn above 260c so while it may be adding some sort of a patina in there (much like you season a cast iron pan), it shouldn't cause any burnt deposits that might gum up the system - but to be cautious, I would apply vegetable oil very very sparingly, and only when you think you need to.

[Mathew Workman]

I am going to try this. So, just a small dab on my finger, and wipe it on the end of the filament?

[Ryan Gerrish]

I just tried it with some regular veggie oil, and have had 2 successful prints in a row! I'm going to pick up some Canola tomorrow (higher heat properties), but I couldnt resist trying some veggie. I just rubbed some on the first couple inches of filament. Who knows if it's helped or not, I've been adjusting lots of other things too.

Someone should try some truffle oil, maybe with a hint of garlic butter mixed in? Extruded the PLA onto some cooked asparagus? I know what I'm taking to my first PDXprinters meeting for appetizers!

[Mathew Workman]

Thank you guys so much.

This is working.

I am now 80% through printing whpthomas's spool mod.

[whpthomas]

Guys I can't take all the credit for this, I started of using some high temp PTFE grease - which every one said was a big no-no, so Clinton Hoines suggested I give vegetable oil a try instead - it worked even better - so I'm just spreading the word.

[Mathew Workman]

It still messed up the end, but I think the spool will still be use able. Going to try the oil trick again tomorrow on some other larger prints that have not been working lately.

Overall, I just can't wait to be off this clear PLA. I'm hoping that's the problem.

[whpthomas]

I ran the digital callipers over the MBI clear filament I received with the bot, and it from memory it ranged in diameter from about 1.7mm to 1.8mm. In my opinion this causes havoc with the plunger, it will grip in the thicker sections seat in a bit and loose grip in the narrower sections. By comparison, my translucent PLA has very little variation 1.69 +/- 0.01 so I never seem to have problems printing with it. It is only after doing my extruder upgrade http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:42250 (another shameless plug :) that I have finally been able to print with clear PLA reliably, but I still did apply a bit of olive oil in order to relieve the audible strain in the extruder - I did 10 hours of back to back unattended clear PLA printing just to up the anti - but it all worked out. 

[Doug Goodridge]

You guys speak of the stuff of dreams. I can't get a single reliable print from my new Rep2 with clear PLA. I've got no other plastic to try as yet.

I'm trying to print whpthomas' extruder upgrade but I can't even get the parts printed reliably (even with whpthomas' profiles in RepG). I've even tried pausing jobs at each 20% to tighten plunger but to no avail, I'm going crazy.

I might try to olive oil thing, but I'm worried as I don't understand how it works. I thought the problem was the delrin not gripping the PLA, so surely adding oil will lubricate it and just make it worse, or am I missing something?

Cheers,

Doug

[whpthomas]

Adjusting the plunger is an art, too loose and it will slip and stall, to tight is no good either. Might I suggest that you take the stepper motor off and adjusting it by doing the following.

1. Unload the filament form your extruder and wait for it to cool down. Wait until the heat-sink fan stops spinning.
   
2. Turn off the power to your Replicator 2.
   
3. Unplug the stepper motor and unscrew the two stainless steel hex head cap screws on the front of the heat-sink fan using the second biggest hex wrench provided. This will allow the extruder stepper motor and plunger assembly to be removed.
   
4. Get out your second smallest hex wrench and loosen the grub screw a bit, then insert a section of your filament.
5. Progressively tighten your grub screw, 1/8th of a turn at a time, and test that you can still turn the drive gear by turning the axle with your fingers. You will get to a point where it is too difficult to turn, so back off the previous 1/8th turn.
6. Now holding the drive gear with your thumb, pull hard on the filament and see if you can strip it - if you can't then you have it tensioned just rich - if you can strip it, try give it another 1/8th turn.
7. To put it all back together, position the plunger/stepper assembly on the back of the extruder and mate it with the two stainless steel hex head cap screws, then gradually tighten using finger pressure, making sure not to cross thread. They just need to be snug, so don't over tighten.

Give this adjusted plunger a try, printing at 230c with a bit of vegetable oil - if that doesn't work, you are just going to have to wait for your new filament to arrive.

[Doug Goodridge]

Thanks so much for your advice (and uploads), I've just this minute finished printing your extruder mod whilst adding a bit of olive oil each time I heard a click or two (every 20% say). It worked! The prints came out great.

I'm just awaiting the delivery of the bearing and then I can replace this damned plunger and get on with printing stuff without fear of constant failures.

Thanks again.

[whpthomas]

Doug, one other though, try setting the clear filament diameter to 1.80 in Print-O-Matic - I think the clear filament probably has a slightly higher packing density - so temporarily going for a higher diameter may reduce the back pressure while printing. Other guys have even printed a little hotter, but I would go up in small increments like 2 ~ 3 degrees at a time. Having it too hot does lead to burnt plastic.

Here is another rather interesting experiment to try out while you have the extruder out - run a pre-heat up to say 240c then turn the heater off and manually feed the filament as the temperature drops. Press a bit of cardboard agains the nozzle and move it under as you feed the manually feed the filament - notice where it start to get harder to push. Too much pressure with the card agains the nozzle makes it difficult as does too low a temperature. This is a useful experiment to develop an intuitive feel for what is going on with your machine.

[Cymon]

I don't use PLA, but this canola oil thing was weird enough that I had to mention it on my blog.

I think PLA has taken 3D printing down a strange road. Next someone will discover that cedar planks are the best printing surface and you can cure PLA by popping it in the oven at 350 degrees for 10 minutes.

[Clinton Hoines]

It's actually not that weird since the plastic is derived from corn anyway. ;) lol

 

Clinton

[Joseph Chiu]

Having gone through a recent fiasco with holiday turkey (having to do with unchilled brine), I thought, "isn't peanut oil supposed to be one of the highest-temperature oils"?  So I looked online, naturally ended up at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point) and learned that refined peanut oil is one of the higher-temperature oils, but there are others that are just as good, or better; and that the refined quality makes a big difference: high oleic canola oil is listed as having a 246 degC smoke point, while refined canola oil is listed as 204 degC.  YMMV, of course..

(Interestingly, Indian clarified butter is near the top, at 252 degC smoke point.)

--
 
 

[whpthomas]

Great dig Joseph,

So it seams that Safflower oil at 266 is one of the better vegetable oils - I have been using extra light olive oil at 242, which has been working just fine.

[Mark Durbin]

Just started a print with canola oil (known as rape seed oil in the UK) ...

MakeAlot (hopefully)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:24 PM, whpthomas <m...@henri.net> wrote:

Great dig Joseph,

So it seams that Safflower oil at 266 is one of the better vegetable oils - I have been using extra light olive oil at 242, which has been working just fine.

--
 
 

[Mathew Workman]

Lol, I'm guessing you meant grape seed ?

[John Driggers]

LOL - here's the best use of sunflower oil! :-)

[Mathew Workman]

Oops, you were right the first time! Rapeseed it is.

[Mark Durbin]

no, rape seed, we also have grape seed! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Mathew Workman <mattworkman...@gmail.com> wrote:

Lol, I'm guessing you meant grape seed ?

--

[Mathew Workman]

Lol sorry.

[Mark Durbin]

no problem :)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Mathew Workman <mattworkman...@gmail.com> wrote:

Lol sorry.

--

[Joseph Chiu]

Yeah, that's what we were hoping for, too.  Actually we lost three, count 'em *three*, turkeys for Christmas dinner. :(

Fortunately, we were able to locate a 26 pounder at the local grocery and managed to spatchcock it in time for dinner.

Joseph 

(Still wistful that he has yet to try deep fried turkey)

[whpthomas]

Where did the turkeys go? Not that nasty FedEx man again?

[John Driggers]

No, but I guareeeeenteeee I could fit a parrot in the pot! :-)

[Mathew Workman]

Just got off the phone with the distributer I bought that machine from. He can't get any support out of Makerbot either - just run around and defelction .

I told him the canola trick. He says he will try it, but his machine prints clear PLA with no trouble.

[Cymon]

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:55:59 AM UTC-7, Mark Cohen wrote:

Is that legitimate rape seed oil? :}

 Is that healthier because the body has a way of rejecting legitimate rape seed oil?

(Really didn't want to make that joke. But if I'm Mark is going to Hades for that comment, at least he'll have some company.)

[David Mytchak]

This thread is hilarious.   

We went from Canola oil to Cheese theory, raping seeds, frying turkeys, and a frying a parrot!!!!

MY GOD I LOVE THIS GROUP!!!!!

We now need a logo!

[hellphish]

Choose your oil carefully! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point

--
 
 

[Tony Buser]

This goes waayyyyy back and I don't recommend it anymore, but back in the day I had success with motor oil and PLA.  :)  See: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tbuser/4400009395/

DISCLAIMER: Do not try this at home.  :)

[Jetguy]

Off topic:
You know what makes that cool? Anybody who owned the original Cupcake
printed that Z handle and due to lack of cooling, they all looked the
same with that giant blob of a handle. Also, curious if the printed
idlers mean that was a Cupcake made when Makerbot had to go to
existing customers and get them to print pulleys for them.

[Doug Goodridge]

I hit the printing sweet spot, but now it's gone....

Stage 1 - No oil with stock plunger - Terrible, couldn't finish a print.

Stage 2 - Olive Oil with stock plunger - Good. With regular oiling during printing it was finishing everything I started. So I made sure I prioritised printing a new MK8 extruder mod.

Stage 3 - Olive Oil with whpthomas extruder - Problematic. The mod worked great and I think the tension is correct. I get no clicks or feed problems. However nothing is sticking to either the build plate or the blue tape. I've done several realignments and used various profiles on different models but no joy. I'm starting to think that the airflow has changed subtly and the lifting and non-sticking might be caused by fan airflow.

If I can get something to stick, then I might try printing a 40mm fan redirector I saw, just as an experiment. (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:40170)

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:11:56 AM UTC, David Mytchak wrote:

First - thank you wpthomas for this tip!!!

I have been having issues printing lately too ( been posting here and thank you everyone! This group is a life saver ) with my Replicator 2 and came across a posting from wpthomas ( THANK YOU ).   He used just a dab of Canola oil on the filament prior to loading it in his Replicator 2.  I can testify that this has totally reconditioned, blessed, removed demons, etc from my Replicator 2.   Canola oil + Firmware 7.0 = one happy camper (at least until the next failed print ).

I wanted to post my results.   

-David

P.S. And no foul odors!

[Mark Durbin]

Depends on your politics :-)

--
 
 

[David Mytchak]

Doug,

Perhaps too much oil?   Have you tried re-leveling the build plate just to be safe?  I use the MK8 extruder also and has been great!   I don't use the blue tape anymore and simply print right on the acrylic plate.   You may want to give that a shot.

[Doug Goodridge]

Thanks David, actually running with the airflow idea I up'd the extrusion temp by 5 degrees thinking it was cooling too quickly. So far it seems to be working great, no hiccups, lifting or stringing and it's been printing for an hour solid on something. Somewhat temperamental these devices aren't they. :)

[David Mytchak]

Temperamental - yes but when it works, I am amazed at the possibilities.  I'm still pissed I missed out on creating during the holidays.  Instead I spent my vacation dicking with the machine.   Regarding the temperature, I think you were wise by increasing it.  I discovered my thermocouple is reporting values incorrectly which just added an unneeded complexity to the already finicky tech.  I now got into the habit of setting my pre-heat to 240, pre-heat, and manually feed the filament by hand.  If it's not smooth, I increase the heat. If it flows too well or causes a swell, I reduce the heat. 

Good luck with the print!  Let us know how it turns out!

[whpthomas]

So my wife spotted this cell vase on Thingiverse http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:31310 and asked if I could print it for her in between jobs. Throwing all caution to the wind, I said "sure would you like that in clear" - this is the first time I have printed something like this with all these overhanging layers, so I am printing it at 0.15 mm layer height, and 100% infill - how hard could it be?

5 hours of unattained printing later, its 30% finished. My new upgraded extruder http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:42250 (another shameless plug :) combined with a dab of olive oil when I loaded the reel has completely transformed my machine - I wound never have even attempted this a week ago - now its making feel like me and my trusty R2 stead have slain that pesky clear PLA dragon - or was it just a parrot.

[Clinton Hoines]

Nice print. Good to see long prints out of a Rep2 finally working.

 

Clinton

[Joseph Chiu]

Oooooh, you are fearless!

--
 
 

[Dan Newman]

> have slain that pesky clear PLA dragon - or was it just a parrot.

If you slay the parrot, then it's dead and then you have to return it to the pet store.
And you know what they'll say….

Dan

[Mathew Workman]

He's not dead, just sleeping! Pineing for the Fjords!

[Dan Newman]

On 15 Jan 2013 , at 6:18 PM, Mathew Workman wrote:

> He's not dead, just sleeping! Pineing for the Fjords!

And completely off topic, but I thought this a fine news piece when it came out,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3454319/Dead-Parrot-sketch-is-1600-years-old.html

Dan

[Doug Goodridge]

Thanks David, it finished perfectly. It was just a simple butterfly shape (scaled down) printed at 20% infill, 0.2 Layer depth with 2 shells @ 235 degrees. Here is a pic (excuse the quality):

http://www.thingiverse.com/derivative:52546

I'm working my way up to the 10cm high Yoda. ;)

[fredhag]

I've had a ToM for a year and a half.  It now has an MK7, minimalist extruder, & sailfish.  I've always used ABS although I once bought a spool of MBI clear PLA and tried it briefly without success right after a moderate overhaul-style maintenance.  Recently, I tried clear ABS, and it worked really well (albeit creating a translucent print).  I decided to retry PLA and it kept jamming up the extruder halfway through prints.  Seeing this thread Monday, I've realized that clear PLA is one of the most difficult PLAs.  Not having any food oil at work, I tried vactra #2 way oil that I use for lubing the printer - just a dab every 20% of the print, and I've gotten through my first print last night.  I then roughly got the flow rate/packing density set and will be doing a better calibration now.  I might bring in some veg oil just because it should affect the color less, but I don't notice anything bad happening.

Thanks for the tip.

Fred

[whpthomas]

Guys, I came up with another technique you can try if you are worried about leaving you clear PLA printing unattended. Place a bit of vegetable oil on the tip of you finger and smear a line across the filament threads in the reel on the back of your Bot. This will ensure that a small amount arrives periodically during your print. Just one dab, I don't think you need to apply any more than that. 

[David Mytchak]

Sweet! Glad to hear that the tip worked for you. I am going to start a large print later on today. Will see if it hold up.

[whpthomas]

So guys (and gals) I really think I have fixed my printer!

As you know I have recently upgraded my extruder http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:42250 (another shameless plug :) and it really is working as well as could be expected. I returned home today to be pleasantly surprised to find a 17h 13m clear PLA print had finished without a hitch. In fact it was very close to failing - but for a totally different reason - only three strands of filament left on the reel when it finished. 

Needless to say I have also scored major brownie points with my wife at the same time.

With this print I feel like all a weight is lifting off my shoulders, the frustration and exasperation is fading (although fear is still shadowing me) and my boyish excitement and enthusiasm for this Replicator 2 is returning. I am starting to remember how just excited I was when those first prints from my new machine miraculously appeared. Its amazing what a few days of back to back successful printing can do for your mood.

So to recap, all that has changed is that I upgraded the extruder, dabbed a small amount of extra lite olive oil on the start of the filament when I loaded it, and ran a my oil dipped finger across the threads of the spool once.

Probably more interesting to me is that I forgot to change the filament diameter back from 1.69 before I sliced the print, so for the entire print the extruder was pushing out excessive plastic - which has actually created a rather sparkly rough surface texture with the clear PLA which hides some of the overhang and bridging imperfections that occurred during the print.

[whpthomas]

Oh, and that parrot has definitely been slain!

[neoteric]

1.  What happened to the turkeys.  Seriously, I want to know.

2. Are you using that fryer indoors???

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:33:04 PM UTC-5, JohnD wrote:

LOL - here's the best use of sunflower oil! :-)

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 5:11:09 PM UTC, Joseph Chiu wrote:

Having gone through a recent fiasco with holiday turkey (having to do with unchilled brine), I thought, "isn't peanut oil supposed to be one of the highest-temperature oils"?  So I looked online, naturally ended up at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point) and learned that refined peanut oil is one of the higher-temperature oils, but there are others that are just as good, or better; and that the refined quality makes a big difference: high oleic canola oil is listed as having a 246 degC smoke point, while refined canola oil is listed as 204 degC.  YMMV, of course..

(Interestingly, Indian clarified butter is near the top, at 252 degC smoke point.)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Clinton Hoines <c2ho...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's actually not that weird since the plastic is derived from corn anyway. ;) lol

 

Clinton

On Tuesday, 15 January 2013 09:31:53 UTC-7, Cymon wrote:

I don't use PLA, but this canola oil thing was weird enough that I had to mention it on my blog.

I think PLA has taken 3D printing down a strange road. Next someone will discover that cedar planks are the best printing surface and you can cure PLA by popping it in the oven at 350 degrees for 10 minutes.

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 5:01:42 AM UTC-7, whpthomas wrote:

Doug, one other though, try setting the clear filament diameter to 1.80 in Print-O-Matic - I think the clear filament probably has a slightly higher packing density - so temporarily going for a higher diameter may reduce the back pressure while printing. Other guys have even printed a little hotter, but I would go up in small increments like 2 ~ 3 degrees at a time. Having it too hot does lead to burnt plastic.

Here is another rather interesting experiment to try out while you have the extruder out - run a pre-heat up to say 240c then turn the heater off and manually feed the filament as the temperature drops. Press a bit of cardboard agains the nozzle and move it under as you feed the manually feed the filament - notice where it start to get harder to push. Too much pressure with the card agains the nozzle makes it difficult as does too low a temperature. This is a useful experiment to develop an intuitive feel for what is going on with your machine.

--
 
 

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Where does all the oil go?

Well I think my cheese theory holds. Lately whenever I do a filament change (without applying any new vegetable oil), I get a bit of oil squirt out onto the build plate during the anchor and skirt phase.

This tells me that the oil is not burning, or gumming up, instead I suspect that because the oil has a lower viscosity (is runnier) than the hot PLA - which is under pressure, it may very well be floating above it in the heating chamber, which explains why its doing such a good job lubing the PLA filament during the build and preventing jams. I suspect that when the PLA is changed the whatever oil remains runs down the chamber and gets pushed out during the re-load.

This would suggest to me that you only want to apply vegetable oil very sparingly - but on the good side - it doesn't appear to be doing any harm.

[David Mytchak]

I agree. Just a dab will do ya!

On a side note, I'm into a 14 hour print job and.... NO JAMS!!!!!

Next print.... Parrot muzzle!!!! Balwk Balwk!!!!

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

LOL!

PLA OR ABS IS NOT EXPERIMENTAL! Read the interwebs, consult the history books, its all been tried before.

This has to be the worst idea I have ever heard. For the love of god people stop treating the symptoms and do the mod! It's been around for a year! All derived from: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:15718

MAKERBOT PLEASE MAKE THE MK9 SPRUNG! <-- that was a weird sentence.  But what do I care when a printed version with $3 parts works better.

-Luis (facepalms and sighs)

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

This has to be the worst idea I have ever heard. For the love of god people stop treating the symptoms and do the mod! It's been around for a year! All derived from: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:15718

Luis: problem is that mod doesn't fit the Replicator 2 - not at all. Regarding the canola oil - now that I have upgraded my extruder, I haven't needed to add it again, but I suspect that it added some sort of patina inside the heat chamber, because even with the upgrade the MBI clear was problematic - the oil fixed it - I finished the roll and now purchase neutral PLA from a more reliable source.

[Scott Goldthwaite]

Can anyone explain why the oil helps so much.  I would think it would make it worse by making the filament slipperier and harder for the gear to grab, but obviously it' doesn't make it worse.  Also, why do the benefits last until the next filament change.  Even if the oil helped get things going when changing the filament, why does it help the entire print?

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Can anyone explain why the oil helps so much.  I would think it would make it worse by making the filament slipperier and harder for the gear to grab, but obviously it' doesn't make it worse.  Also, why do the benefits last until the next filament change.  Even if the oil helped get things going when changing the filament, why does it help the entire print?

Scott, I think it just floats around inside the heat chamber, above the melting filament - probably higher surface tension and lower viscosity causes this. There is still oil in my extruder even after 200 hours of prints, I can see it getting blown up against the plexiglass side panels I installed the side panels. Its not burning up, so I guess its still lubricating the heat chamber. My bot has been essentially trouble free since making these changes.

[xenogea...@gmail.com]

I think what Luis was trying to say was that this style of spring-lever-bearing mechanism, as opposed to the delrin plunger, has been around for a while and successfully used for at least a year.  The delrin plunger extruder may have been a good design when speeds were slower and acceleration wasn't used, but I think now we're seeing the limits of this configuration and MakerBot should have changed to this apparently superior setup for the Replicator 2.

I have your upgrade installed on my Rep 2 at home.  I stubbornly tried to keep the delrin plunger setup in my machine, thinking I could tune it and make it work well.  But if you're switching colors often and using higher speeds and accelerated firmware, its just too frustrating.  In my opinion, anyone with a Rep 2 that hasn't done this modification should do it immediately.  It has been a relief to use this spring-lever-bearing design.

[Joseph Chiu]

My guess is that it helps in the same way wiping my skillet with oil keep the egg from sticking to it -- not only does it not stick, the egg actually will easily slide around.   It doesn't take much, but the oil apparently fills the microcracks in the metal so that the food, err, the plastic can't get in there and grab hold.

I'm so tempted to season the feed tube with lard the next time I season my iron skillet...  

Tangential off-topic -- pancakes are so much better when made on a cast iron skillet -- I just can't get the same finish on a non-stick pan.

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Wingcommander whpthomas <m...@henri.net> wrote:

Can anyone explain why the oil helps so much.  I would think it would make it worse by making the filament slipperier and harder for the gear to grab, but obviously it' doesn't make it worse.  Also, why do the benefits last until the next filament change.  Even if the oil helped get things going when changing the filament, why does it help the entire print?

Scott, I think it just floats around inside the heat chamber, above the melting filament - probably higher surface tension and lower viscosity causes this. There is still oil in my extruder even after 200 hours of prints, I can see it getting blown up against the plexiglass side panels I installed the side panels. Its not burning up, so I guess its still lubricating the heat chamber. My bot has been essentially trouble free since making these changes.

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[Cymon]

Will this mess up my ability to go back to ABS?

[Joseph Chiu]

My guess is that the initial dose of oil will mostly purge out of the tube  - so your first print(s) might have some problems with the oil mixed in -- but it won't be much of an issue longer-term.  Blackened oil may end up mixing into the plastic, though probably not enough to notice normally.  But, then again, when I cook on the iron skillet, I occasionally get black bits on my food that pulled off the skillet (happening a lot more lately because I've been less meticulous about greasing my skillet after "washing" -- there's a whole community of iron skillet diehards out there.  Makes us bot owners look like small potatoes in comparison.)

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Blackened oil may end up mixing into the plastic, though probably not enough to notice normally.

No the oil we are using is not getting hot enough to burn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point). It is only a very small amount of oil, which appears to move to the outer surface as the filament bonds together due to the oils lower viscosity and the changing surface tension.

[Joseph Chiu]

Heh, I'm the one that first reported that. :)   Sorry, I was starting to think about my iron skillet and its seasoning... :)

[JohnA.]

Hey, not everyone's handle was that bad!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jabella/4613114278/in/set-72157623829152993

May 2010 on a MK4 ! 


JohnA.

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 4:03:56 PM UTC-5, Jetguy wrote:

Off topic:
You know what makes that cool? Anybody who owned the original Cupcake
printed that Z handle and due to lack of cooling, they all looked the
same with that giant blob of a handle. Also, curious if the printed
idlers mean that was a Cupcake made when Makerbot had to go to
existing customers and get them to print pulleys for them.




On Jan 15, 3:49 pm, Tony Buser <tbu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This goes waayyyyy back and I don't recommend it anymore, but back in the
> day I had success with motor oil and PLA.  :)  See:http://www.flickr.com/photos/tbuser/4400009395/
>
> DISCLAIMER: Do not try this at home.  :)

[David Mytchak]

Been gone awhile but back.   As stated in the original post, the MK8 mod is in use but the oil aided in the overall process.   It isn't needed all the time but if you're air printing, it seems that a little dab will do ya.   I went from "I'm going to throw this freakin machine in the pool" to "I LOVE THIS THING!!!".

Side note: Did anyone watch Big Bang Theory last week?    The guys bought a 3D printer and the quote that made me laugh so hard was "Oh look it's ready!!! <grabs part> A whistle!!! And it only took three hours!"

Have a great one!

David

[JohnD]

:-)  In order ->

1] The turkeys got eaten, and were delicious.  What bits were left over got tossed in a pot with some andouille sausage and turned into gumbo.

2] Hell no - that's normally used for boiling crawfish - that's outdoors next to a big garage.

[Mark Cohen]

Unplug from the outlet it if you are going to throw it in the pool. It
says so in the manual.

[Andy Cohen]

I have also had very good success with a very very tiny dab of canola oil. I lightly touch the inside of the oil bottle cap with my pinky. Then lift the filament tube above the extruder and touch just a tiny smear.  The oil must travel onto the plunger face and cuts way back on the friction there without losing the pressure on the filament. Still... I am anxiously waiting for the bearing in the mail for the extruder upgrade!  No big prints for me until the upgrade.

[Nathan Cerny]

This suggestion has all but eliminated my issues with the qu-bd extruder.  Thanks guys!

I have a different theory of why it works though - while it likely does reduce friction, I think the big win is it fills the imperfections in the heat chamber.  Since oil has a much better thermal conductance than air, the filament gets heated more consistently, which results in fewer jams.

I was having a 5 (10 on the extreme side) degree swings in temperature while printing.  After adding oil (I used grapeseed), without changing anything else, it's dropped to a 1-2 degree swing.

Thanks for the suggestion!

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Nathan Cerny

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"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone."

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[Andy Cohen]

Grapeseed Oil will certainly taste better! If what you say is the case then a tiny dab of oil is still needed even after one upgrades their extruder feeder from the plunger joke to the spring type. You guys see this? I won't be able to do my upgrade till tonight. Finally got the bearing!

 

One thing is for sure... no more extrusion slow downs and jams. Every color flows evenly and clean. Awesome. I am finally on to learning things beyond simply getting the printer to work!

[sciencemike]

USP-grade mineral oil  is the cheapest pure food-grade oil you can buy.  In general for cutting board applications and knife work people do not use vegetable or olive oils because they can turn rancid and smell badly.  It may be a much better solution than veg based oil based upon this problem, as well as an added benefit that the smoke point of mineral oil is over 475C. 

 

Anyone have any reasons why we couldn't use mineral oil, it seems to be a better alternative?

[xenogea...@gmail.com]

I have the upgrade but I haven't added any oil during any of my prints and my machine is doing well at printing parts.  I have had some issues but I think it has more to do with plate leveling and nozzle-plate distance.  Once I get those right, parts come out great.

[Rich Thompson]

I can add that after receiving my MakerBot R2 in November and not printing anything successfully until after support had repaired the extruder, I was still getting air prints every other print. So I did the MK8 upgrade again. I had done it before sending the R2 in to support, but it did not help much. This time I used the latest model that did not require cutting and had the cute little tab...

Once the repaired R2 with the MK8 upgrade started printing, my air prints dropped to 1 out of 10 for very small prints and 3 out of 10 for large prints (4 or more inches in one dimension). So I bought a bottle of Canola Oil. Now, I print without air prints happening. I've kept the R2 printing almost 16 hours a day for a week without a single air print. I've varied filament and software settings without issue.

[Joseph Chiu]

I know there are far more Replicators than ToM's, and probably a lot more active R2 owners right now than Replicator and ToM owners, but it strikes me that there seems to be far more complaints amongst the R2 crowd of extruder jams (and other problems) than I remember with the ToM's.

I'm wondering if in the push to build in greater numbers, the quality of the parts have suffered -- that is, perhaps it's not necessarily that the design is bad, but that maybe not as much care is put into the manufacturing/assembly.  Specifically, I'm wondering if the more recent batch of feed tubes might be less smooth than the earlier ones...

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Rich Thompson <robott...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can add that after receiving my MakerBot R2 in November and not printing anything successfully until after support had repaired the extruder, I was still getting air prints every other print. So I did the MK8 upgrade again. I had done it before sending the R2 in to support, but it did not help much. This time I used the latest model that did not require cutting and had the cute little tab...

Once the repaired R2 with the MK8 upgrade started printing, my air prints dropped to 1 out of 10 for very small prints and 3 out of 10 for large prints (4 or more inches in one dimension). So I bought a bottle of Canola Oil. Now, I print without air prints happening. I've kept the R2 printing almost 16 hours a day for a week without a single air print. I've varied filament and software settings without issue.

[c f]

I think it is a product of both expectations and sales volume. The ToMs had all kinds of problems, but everyone's expectations were set a lot lower, both since it was an insanely complicated, low-volume kit and it was still a huge improvement compared to the cupcake (which was almost hilariously bad, in retrospect). With every new generation of machine the sales volume has gone up, and the perceived barrier to entry has gone way down (even if the underlying hardware hasn't actually changed all that much - my ToM extruder is pretty much identical to what is in the R2).

I suspect the increased mailing list traffic is largely just a result of this - you only need a handful of vocal people to generate a huge volume of traffic, and the more machines out there (and the less experience those users have with CNC equipment), a higher absolute number of people are going to have problems.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

I agree, after the upgrade, you don't need oil all the time - I would say I am adding a dab oil every 150 - 200 hours now. You can hear it straining on the infill and a click here and there - I pause for a filament change - pull the feeder sheath back, add a tiny bit of oil - run the filament for a bit and resume the print. Have not had an air print in what seems such a long time now - though it is probably only a few weeks - just had a lot of successful prints in the mean time.

[Kletus VanDamme]

Can someone explain what physically is happening with the clicking in the extruder?

During a print I get this rapid clicking, that sounds like the extruder motor is being physically prevented from turning.

It is the same sound that occurs when I pinch the incoming filament hard enough to prevent the motor from turning.

This is often coupled with breaks in the extrusion where for about 4 mm no PLA is extruded, often repeated every 20 mm.

On some prints, I see this happen only in the Y direction, and not in the X direction.

When I simply Load filament, far above the part, there is no clicking.

My instinct is that there is enough back pressure from the nozzle or the previously printed layer, that more filament simply can't flow through quickly enough and the motor is forced to not turn.

If this is the case, I can see how a little oil would alleviate the problem, or perhaps increasing the nozzle clearance off the bedplate, or even putting a filament wiper on the incoming filament. (all of which I've tried)

However I don't see how implementing the Mk8 upgrade would cure the clicking.

If the problem was that the extruder wasn't gripping the filament tightly enough, the motor wouldn't be prevented from moving.

Instead, the motor would keep turning and the filament would not move.

I am going to try the Mk8 upgrade, I just don't understand how it would cure the clicking.

I feel like a stronger extruder motor would cure the clicking, because it would overcome the resistance in the filament output (or input) and simply provide the demanded flow rate.

Can someone explain the physics behind the clicking and how the Mk8 upgrade would solve this?

Thanks.

- Matt

[David Mytchak]

Kletus,

It appears that a dab of Canola Oil seems to lube the nozzle, increase thermal transfer, and reduce whatever surface adhesion may have developed within the heat chamber/nozzle.  With that said, I am not qualified to give a scientific explanation why it works or why it maybe bad.   For me, it was the missing after the extruder upgrade and I simply wanted to share the joy.   The MK8 mod (Emmet's or WingCommander's) are a required modification in my opinion.  The bearing with pressure really seems to be a solid solution vs the stock, friction based plunger.    Theory aside, I'd say that facts are facts.  Operators that had issues are now reporting great prints by using the Mk8 mod and oil.   

Just my two cents.  

Perhaps someone that earned higher than a 'C' in thermodynamics could answer the question better than I.  Or maybe the Iron Chef.  

Damnit - Where's Tony Stark when you need him????

-David

[Joseph Chiu]

The way I understand it, when you're hearing the tick-tick-tick of the extruder, the extuder motor is stalls, loses a few steps, and then re-engages a few steps, then stalls again -- the hammering effect of the drive gear on the filament eventually carves a low spot in the filament -- in the plunger design, there's a much more limited range of motion, so the drive gear loses its engagement to the filament.   By putting an idler bearing on the spring-arm design, you improve the range of motion.  Also, with the idler bearing, less of the motor force is wasted on overcoming the clamping friction, so the filament moves more easily.

--

[Matt Hill]

What's the max safe extruder temp I can use on my Replicator2?

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Try upping the temp

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[Chris Milnes]

Rep2 - I inched above 230 as a test. 235,240,245,etc

I use 250 when needing to clean out a clogged nozzle. 275 was top temp before problems. Smoking and possible permanent damage. At 300 I thought I killed it dead. Machine stopped functioning and only game back to life after 30min cool down and hard power reboot.

Best, Chris

Sent from iphone

[Nathan Cerny]

Kletus - The reason many consider the Mk8 upgrade "required" is because filament varies in diameter, even when you purchase only high quality filament.  Likewise, PLA is apparently very absorbent, so it can vary in diameter depending on the humidity of the room.

A plunger based feed system assumes the filament is always the same diameter, and therefore is always being pushed into the feed element at a constant force.  Since the diameter varies  that's not true.  The spring-loaded upgrade, keeps a relatively constant force on the filament regardless of filament diameter, which in theory makes the teeth on the feed element dig in the same amount no matter what, and feed the same length of filament no matter what.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

At 300 I thought I killed it dead.

Man Chris! you sure don't do things in half measures - good to know though ;) 

[xenogea...@gmail.com]

If this is the case, I can see how a little oil would alleviate the problem, or perhaps increasing the nozzle clearance off the bedplate, or even putting a filament wiper on the incoming filament. (all of which I've tried)

However I don't see how implementing the Mk8 upgrade would cure the clicking.

In my experience, in my prints post mk8 extruder upgrade, any clicking that I've heard from my extruder I can attribute to my build plate being too close to the nozzle.  When printing multiple parts or a larger part, the areas/parts that have what look like a good healthy extrusion (not stringy from being too far away or not smeared from being too close) the filament goes down not problem.  But where it does get smeared from being too close to the build plate, never fail, it starts clicking.  This, of course, is likely due to my crappy warped acrylic build plate.  I strongly suspect when I get a glass plate that this problem will be resolved and I won't have to babysit the first few layers, making minor adjustments to the bed height during the print.

[Chris Milnes]

Yes - I've been accused of being heavy handed.

Best, Chris

Sent from iphone

On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Wingcommander whpthomas <m...@henri.net> wrote:

At 300 I thought I killed it dead.

Man Chris! you sure don't do things in half measures - good to know though ;) 

--

[Matt Hill]

Chris,

Is it hard to swap out the nozzle?  I may try this eventually. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Andy Cohen]

IMO there is more then one thing that the feeder upgrades provide. I agree that the plunger cannot take varying diameters of filament into account, but I also feel that the plunger requires that the filament not have the slightest variation in friction before the plunger as well.

If you open and look at the feeder housing you see the filament pathways. Notice the length of travel in the pathway before the plunger? About .6". Take a piece of filament off of a spool that is more then half way down (like the stuff MBI sends with the printer) and notice the natural curve in it from being on the spool? Try cutting a small length and insert it into the path and you'll see that the filament bend presses the filament against the sides of the path. The more the bend, the more friction. Now add to that all the friction in the feed tube from the spool. As such simply replacing the plunger with a spring loaded bearing is a partial solution. The upgrades solve variation in the diameter of the filament and also cut back the friction before the stepper motor.

MBI's design ignores essential requirements of the filament.

There's other things which show that MBI does not have the Engineering skills to pull this off... we can save those for some other time...

[Matt Hill]

Andy,

To add another source of friction increase, when the extruder is moving front to back (y direction?) the filament tube is getting bent and imposing more friction in the filament.  A tighter bend us harder to pull the filament through. 

I think that is why I get clicks in the front to back direction but not the left to right. 

-Matt

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Matt Hill]

Thanks everyone for your advice on my "clicking" and "air printing" problems.

The Mk8 extruder upgrade solved these.

Here is my blog post on the topic:

http://3dprinterstories.blogspot.com/2013/02/extruder-upgrade.html

[James McCracken]

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Chris Milnes <chr...@true9.com> wrote:

Rep2 - I inched above 230 as a test. 235,240,245,etc

 At 300 I thought I killed it dead. Machine stopped functioning and only game back to life after 30min cool down and hard power reboot.

That would be the safety cutoff coming on.  Hard power boot is required to untrip it.

The real lesson here: the safety cutoff did its job and prevented permanent damage to both the extruder and Chris. 

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

The real lesson here: the safety cutoff did its job and prevented permanent damage to both the extruder and Chris. 

Chris - clearly you and your bot dodged a bullet on that day...

[Roger Pharr]

holy crap. oil on the filament is a life changer. Thanks guys! bumping this thread so noobs like me can get their prints done

[Kalen Rixon]

I just want to go ahead and bump this thread for anyone experiencing the issues detailed in these posts. After nearly two days of airprinting, it looks like Canola oil - combined with this mod - http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:153807 - has really saved me. Just did an 8 hour print at 0.1mm and 9% fill and it came out better than anything I've printed in the year that I've owned my Rep2. 

I used a 3M sponge, the above mod, and extra-virgin olive oil. Works like a charm. This is right up there with Wingcommander's extruder mod. 

[Franc Falco]

Maybe a coincidence but after having a few problems getting Ninjaflex to load, extrude and stick the the bed - added a dab of extra virgin olive oil to the filament and i'm now printing cleaner and smoother than my usual PLA.
Although it may also have been the hours i spent tweaking the speed, retraction and temp settings that made all the difference!