Does anyone print usable parts with his Makerbot 5th Generation Replicator?

[Patrick Huber]

I got my replicator 5th gen last week. first i printed some nearly good parts... then i an into some strange problems. the parts suddenly got really worse during or in the end of printing. see pictures:

 

i changed the filament then and surprisingly there was a little piece of filament left behind from testing in the filament guid tube. i got it out and thought that this was the problem but my prints didn't get better.

sometimes the prints are "ok" and sometimes so bad that if have to cancel the job during printing. if i mean "ok" then the prints finished but its far from a good part. really thin extrusion of filament. or the printer changing flowrate during printing like in this pictures:

 

thick and thin walls an the first layer of the raft! common whats this? 

more pictures of "ugly" printing:

sometimes i have also this clicking noise the extruder is making.. normally when this appears i can stop the printing because there won't be a lots of filament coming out of the extruder. 

i believe that my (not so ) smart extruder doesn't extrude enough filament. 

anyone has the same issues? is there something i can do? like unload and reload filament the whole day? i'm frustrated with my 3000 $ bad printing machine!!

and who ist printing without problems? do you have some pictures to share?

.... so far printed good (i mean until the end as you can see above):

 

[Jay]

Patrick

Those look like classic 'air prints'....the 5th gen's 'smart extruder' was touted as the end of those. (wry smile)

Could be several reasons for it...at least on a 4th gen.

If you get knocking when it's printing a raft that usually means the build plate is too close to extruder head. The filament is backing up because it can't flow.

Might be heat soak....where the heat is slowly rising up the extruder stack and the filament gets soft...which allows the drive wheel to skip (knocking)...which leads to it not feeding enough. *(this is my best guess for prints that fail after starting well)

If it was a 4th gen it might be the filament was too big or too small...that would fool the system into extruding too big or too small a bead...BUT...if you're using the new MBI filament rolls it should be close.

There's just not enough info out for the 5th gens yet....

Have you called MBI and had them weigh in on it?

Cheers

Jay

[Tiffany Diorio]

Patrick, 

 I just wanted to let you know that I checked in with our support staff about this.  We see that you have a new case open with Josh - he's going to e-mail you today, so please keep an eye out for his response.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Tiffany Diorio
Technical Community Manager

MakerBot
One MetroTech Center, 21st Floor
Brooklyn, NY 11201
T   347 334 6800

W  makerbot.com  |  thingiverse.com
>   Leading the Next Industrial Revolution

 

02.11.13    Fast Company  |  The World’s Top 10 Most Innovative Companies in Consumer Electronics

NOTICE: This email may contain information that is confidential or attorney-client privileged and may constitute inside information or trade secrets. The contents of this email are intended only for the recipient(s) listed above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are directed not to read, disclose, distribute or otherwise use this transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the transmission. Delivery of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privileges.

[Patrick Huber]

Hello Jay

Thank you for your answer.

Yes i'm in contact with MBI Support team. they are helping me as good as they can. i just read the answer of jetguy in this thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/makerbot/3wjn6AsV2yk

and now i'm considering to return the 5th gen and buy another 3d printer.i think they won't fix the problem in a acceptable time this year.

best regards

patrick

[Jetguy]

Let's not go too far down the path.

I'm not saying folks should return the machines. That's a decision each owner needs to make for themselves. We don't need to use the "jump to conclusions mat" .

I simply explained my understanding of homing on the 5th gen, how it works (how I've interpreted the mechanics and public information about the machine). Just because I said I'm unimpressed, doesn't mean that I said it cannot make usable parts.

Admittedly, I have an issue with the firmware. Because the firmware controls EVERYTHING the machine does, my concern is that we've seen somewhat of the insides of a smart extruder, we've seen circuit boards and assumed encoders detecting the moving of filament coming in, and we've seen the reports of air prints and clicking extruders indicating the system is NOT detecting failed extrusion during printing and is not pausing  the print or warning the user. While MakerBot's literature is vague on the exact "smarts" of the extruder, What I and the rest of the community believed from Bre's statements at CES was this was supposed to stop air prints. Why have a sensor and NOT use it? It was supposed to detect out of filament situations, I've yet to see that test as well.

There are plenty of reports of jams an so on. I also pointed out tidbits from other owners reviews where they did discuss things like ramming a hot nozzle right into the bed.

So yes, it has problems, a few of them hardware, but most of them firmware. Firmware can be fixed. The huge problem is, can it be fixed to a reasonable level of safety and reliability to address the concerns sometime in the next few weeks /months? Given the shear volume of improvements required, I'm saying it sounds like one uphill battle, but that's just MY reference point. I've seen the code, I know who wrote it, I know they basically developed a new system from scratch. I think that was a major mistake, too many unknowns and change from previous and proven working designs.. But what is done is done and now MakerBot has to deal with it.

What I am saying is, I believe the machine is still capable of printing usable parts (the title of this thread). You might have to jump through some hoops to get there, but fundamentally, the machine should print usable parts.

I would stay in the Default "low" profile AKA taller layer heights not lower than 0.2mm given the homing errors and general leveling issues. You can go lower, I just think that even on a Replicator2 or 2X, the user shouldn't jump right into and try to do ultra low layer heights right off the bat. A certain level of experience and understanding is required to get the bed level and nozzle spacing exact for that all too critical first layer that generally makes or breaks the print. But that's just general advice for anyone and any 3D printer. What makes this unique is the users hands are tied on the 5th gen. You cannot manually adjust first layer height. Either the nozzle and homing system works and the machine gets it right, or it doesn't. The tip here is KNOWING  what too low of a first layer nozzle height looks like and sounds like (extruder clicking) and abort the print.

It's that fundamental understanding of what the machine sounds like when it's working well, VS when it's not working, then being able to correlate what function (bed leveling, homing, layer height, software settings, extruder problems, filament problems, temperature, and so on) is the correct thing to adjust or try again. Unfortunately, we can write all day about this and still not teach a person new to 3D printing these factors. It's a LOT to learn. It requires some level of understanding the mechanics and physics involved. Obviously, the firmware, sensors, and software have not yet evolved to take this part out of the printing equation yet.

So that right there is part of the expectations issue present as well. Many folks took and spread the words "auto leveling", when it's assisted leveling. The only assistance is it tells you via an LED when the distance has been manually set correctly for that position. YOU the owner still need to have some level of understanding WHY you are leveling and how that effects printing and machine operation. Most important, you the operator need to have the eyes and ears to know, regardless of what the machine tells you, when the build bed is NOT correctly leveled.

I think until the software enforces a couple of things you probably should develop some "rules" and training for manual usage of the 5th gens in general.

Like, unload filament before running a level check, ensure the nozzle isn't hot and so on.

Don't let the machine preheat and idle (sit there and not be printing for 5-10minutes) with filament loaded (prevention of the nozzle jams).

Don't run the machine in hot environments as the cooling is required to prevent nozzle jams (PLA likes cooler temps anyway)

Again, not to put too fine a point on it, but until the firmware gets a LOT better, I think having the manual control and proven reliability that is present in the Replicator 2 works better (from all the user reports here and elsewhere) might be better than the automatic features on the 5th gen that still need some more improvements. But that statement is just my opinion. Some folks are likely to vocally disagree with it.

[Patrick Huber]

Hello Jetguy

thank you for your statement. i didn't want to attack you or saying you said this or that! i think you hit the nail on the head with your answer and i'm somewhat frustrated with a bad printing 3000$ dollar machine.

at this point considering no one shared a picture of his good printed part.. it's still a waste of money (till now). maybe its going to work out with a new firmware.. we'll see

as longer as it takes people like me are getting more frustrated and the chance to get a refund is getting smaller each day i'm waiting (... that this might end good)

at least the 5th gen is looking good!

best regards

patrick

[Jetguy]

Another point I wanted to add to this thread as possible fixes/workarounds is attempt to LOWER extruder temperature via your profile settings.

PLA is VERY heat sensitive. It's gnerally agreed that in MANY other printers and extruder types, you don't need 230C.

However, the Replicator 2 and 2X seem to like those temps, and that appears to be default carried over to this new machine.

 

As a general rule, I lower temps in increments of 10 degrees until the extruder begins to struggle and begins to skip steps.

The giant question is, if they removed much of the controls, I don't know how easy it is to set up such a test where you can lower the bed, set the extruder temp manually, and begin extruding at a controlled rate.

 

I will say this, the obvious failures in the prints shown in this thread are soemthing in the extruder getting warmer during the print until it eventually causes a jam. Now while we can get mad about the firmware not detecting the jam and DOING SOMETHING about it (pausing the print) we have to wait for MakerBot to put  that into the code.

Ideally, we should never get to that situation and again, cooling is key. Maybe the folks having less problems are running in cooler air conditioned rooms at the time?

Maybe they have extra airflow around the machine?

 

It could be that if the cooling fan is PWM controlled, then maybe a setting to raise it's speed works?

It's possible that this could be solved by firmware, maybe hardware mods, who really knows?

Another thought, Just like most small engines are air cooled, so is this hot end via the duct.

Since the heastink is round and the air blows straight through the channel, in theory, just like a typical engine, the backside of the heatsink fins is a dead spot for airflow. Most small engines have a shroud that turns the exit air 90 degrees from on side to blow across that back "dead spot". This is reaching but again, I'm just trying to throw all observations and give real world examples that relate to the situation. Notice the upper and lower outer ducts curve the air towards the center to try and get additional cooling in the dead zone.

Also, keep in mind we are looking at the exit or exhaust side of the duct..

 

Another factor is that a radial blower is used. They are able to generate MUCH greater static air pressure than normal fans. This means that the addition of such tiny little wings to direct the airflow completely around the heatsink shouldn't affect volume of flow greatly. In other words, we aren't restricting the airfow, just ensuring it bends around and reaches the heatink's backside.

[Jetguy]

Point being, you and I along with several others have the scientific process and theory to test out a few methods on the machine. We certainly would know to put instrumentation (thermocouple or thermistor) on various parts of the extruder and monitor real world temps before making mods to get a baseline, then verify the mods do what we think they are "supposed" to do.

 

But, you and I are not going to buy one in hopes that we can fix the machine. Further, given the firmware somewhat limits control of things by all accounts, testing may be more difficult than imagined.

 

In fact, on the drive in, I had this semi crazy real world test kind of worked out. You take the belts off so that the extruder head doesn't move (pretty easy on an H bot since it's ALL one belt) move the extruder to a front corner, start the print, hit the limit switches manually so it thinks it homed and let it extrude into a bucket below the printer. This validates the retraction and so forth over a real print job. Sure, it's not building quite the same extruder pressure pushing on a previous layer but I doubt that's the issue. Clearly what we are seeing is either heat soak or a retraction based jam. And, the methods described such as blocking airflow or increasing airflow can be played with "real time" and see the effects if it clears the jam or prevents it.

 

But why should we do this? Shouldn't MakerBot techs be doing this? Why am I wasting time reverse engineering something I'm never going to buy?

 

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:49:35 AM UTC-4, Carl Raffle wrote:

If anything... I would argue that the cooling fan on the 5th gen is too effective... potentially causing the filament to solidify during aggressive retraction and plugging the entrance to the thermal barrier...

Since the nozzle seems to be raised and lowered by the action of the filament retracting and then extruding... the first sign of a clog forming would be that the nozzle 'sticks' in the up (or down) position.

My suggestion would be to reduce the airflow, thereby increasing the temperature of the thermal barrier in order to avoid the plug forming.

Without actually having one to experiment on... and zero intention of buying a 5th gen at present... one theory is as plausible as the next! :-)

[Patrick Huber]

ok now i'm confused.. i'll try both.. to lower the airflow from the fan and to get even more airflow around the heatsink..

maybe i can test this evening..

[Patrick Huber]

why do you know so much about the 5th gen replicator?

[Ryan Carlyle]

We read stuff people post here, check marketing material, etc.

[Ray Charles]

Hi Patrick, 

sorry to see that. 

Im having every other problem you can have with the 5th generation but the prints, when they do come out, are fantastic.

[Patrick Huber]

hello ray charles

oh finally someone who has good prints.. do you have a picture of a part?

beside that .. do you level your build plate other than with the level assistent?

[spineytoad]

I have had no problems with that...until a couple days ago, the smart extruder started to click like you are talking about and a print that had a weak section like you have, I was able to get the clicking to stop then, but it came back and would not load or unload.  I called MBI and after getting confirmation I shipped mine back to them, they next day aired another one to me, I am waiting for the new one today.  You can see by the image that it does work, I am currently using that plate and need to print another when I get the new extruder.  As far as leveling, I just use the level assistant, it seems to work pretty good, you just turn a couple knobs when it says and it is done.  I'm actually not sure about all the fuss with the leveling, it just works, I don't have experience other than this one though, but not having to stick paper in there to test it and such is nice.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Patrick, you might try a different color filament -- transparent PLA often seems to cause trouble for people.

[Steve_Criz]

Not sure about the other remedies being offered... but; I've just resolved a "prints great for a while, then starts to air print and in the end fails" on my Rep2.

I used the: wipe 20-30cm of filament prior to loading in the extruder with a lint free cloth that has some drops of light machine oil/baby oil as sometimes the extruder is 'dry', method.

It worked a treat!!

Maybe that's not possible to do with the 5th gen?

[hjorthmobile]

I will have my 5th gen unboxing tomorrow. What color filament would you suggest for first attempts? I have red, yellow, natural, black and true white. I know to avoid the black. Maybe the red (makerbot) for starters?

[Steve_Criz]

I've not used yellow myself... but I've heard plenty of reports that yellow is better than most other colours.  I imagine it has something to do with the pigment to PLA ratio; especially given certain colours have more 'power' once mixed with a binder than other colours do.

I'm currently using white PLA on my Rep2, and it's working almost the same as the blue I'd been using for a while, and the 'natural' before that.  I almost get the feeling some issues that are blamed on the filament could well have their root cause elsewhere... like my issues with 'air printing' and 'blobbing' have occurred so closely with changing to the white filament, I could have believed it was no coincidence the change to white, and the printing issues were more than related. As it's turned out; they weren't!!  A 'dry' extruder was the big culprit!  A few drops of machine oil on a 'chux' type cloth wiped over the first 20-30cm of the filament before loading it has led to instant results.

Who'd a thunk eh?!!  A coupla drops of the good oil, and off she goes!!  Now I've got to apologise to my white PLA for allowing myself the momentary possibility that my problems were it's fault!

It's all part of the learning experience though!

Good luck!! whatever colour you choose to print with first up!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ryan Carlyle]

Canola oil is the most popular option with PLA, since it's nice and non-toxic and works just fine. Do not use a lubricating oil that contains PTFE -- this could outgas at MBI's preferred printing temp.

[Dan Newman]

On 09/04/2014, 7:22 AM, Ryan Carlyle wrote:
> We read stuff people post here, check marketing material, etc.

And some of us have mod'd Ubuntu such that it can mount the root file system
image which *is* the firmware distributed for the bot and then looked through
everything. (Which is why we know what OS it is, what architecture, what the
new file formats are, etc.) And we've disassembled the new Makerbot Desktop
installer package. And we hear tidbits in private from people with 5th
gen printers. And before they were even released, people were hearing
tidbits about the printers from MBI employees and seeing them at trade
shows (albeit non-functional at that point).

Dan

[Ryan Carlyle]

Dan Newman: 3d Printer Detective!

[Patrick Huber]

this part looks good to me... wish my printer would print likewise

[Patrick Huber]

hello ryan 

yes i already switched to red and now today to white

[Ryan Carlyle]

Try canola oil yet?

[Jetguy]

Here's my problem with the oil solution:

It was OK on say a Replicator 2 or 2X where there was really nothing other than the drive gear and a bearing roller touching the filament in the drive system of the extruder.

Not a lot to get gummed up from the dust that inevitably sticks to the oil. Further, the user can take these systems apart and clean them easily.

 

Conversly, the 5th gen sealed extruder has TONS of parts, sensors thet we don't even know how they work a much longer filament path in and so on. Plus, no good way to take them apart and clean them. I cannot tell a 5th gen owner this uses of oiling the filament is a good idea. Further, we have NO idea what it will do when they finally get around to enabling the filament feed sensors. Suddenly a fix that stopped the jams now triggers the sensors into thinking filament is NOT feeding the machine won't print.

 

MakerBot needs to solve this problem, not us using marginal theories without even understanding the implications.

 

 

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:09:42 AM UTC-4, Ryan Carlyle wrote:

Try canola oil yet?

[Joe Lboro]

I started getting the clicking on printing and now my smart extruder has blocked up. Because the 'smart' extruder is a black box of untouchables I cannot clear this blockage, so I've had to put a support call in.

The machine was fine out of the box, assisted levelling worked fine and filament loading was all good. However having only produced 5 parts before having to call an engineer I am having a rethink about being on the 'bleeding edge' of MBI's designs.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Jetguy, I completely see your point, but if someone doesn't want to return the printer or return their extruder over and over until MBI changes the design, there aren't a lot of other options to try at the moment. We only learn when people try stuff. Sometimes there's risk when you try stuff. 

We have a chicken-or-egg problem right now where none of the people who can fix the printer want to buy one, because it's broken. Shame on MBI for relying on the community to fix their broken product, and shame on users who bought a launch-day product without doing any research. But I still want to help people with their issues if I can.

The physics behind filament lubrication makes sense in this case -- there's good evidence that we're not getting enough filament cooling in the thermal barrier, and oil acts as a heat transfer medium. 

[Patrick Huber]

Came home right now! here is my printing:

a table with holes... don't like it:

well it just sucks.. makerbot.. give me a good printer!!!

[jahg]

Looks like a serious under-extrusion - what profile did you print with? 

[Jetguy]

"Looks like a serious under-extrusion - what profile did you print with? "

It's under extrusion because:

#1 the smart extruder isn't and is NOT detecting the filament jam and extruder motor skipping steps

#2 because the $#@%$ hot end on these keeps jamming under what should be normal conditions.

In case you missed it, nearly every single owner is reporting some form of jam at least once and who hasn't sent the extruder back at least once?

[Jetguy]

"We have a chicken-or-egg problem right now where none of the people who can fix the printer want to buy one, because it's broken."

Laughing because I got an email today for the Z18 and the mini. It would be better to take my money, get it converted to singles, set them in a big pile in my backyard, break out some kero and light it on fire using the turbine golf cart.  One thing, I bet you good money the bleed air alone could clear the jam in that extruder.

"Bleed air is valuable in an aircraft for two properties: high temperature and high pressure (typical values are 200–250°C and 275 kPa (40 PSI), for regulated bleed air exiting the engine pylon for use throughout the aircraft)."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPTvoabcU-k

[Ryan Carlyle]

You know why they have to release broken printers, right? The terms of the Stratasys merger pin almost half the stock purchase shares to MBI's 2014 financial performance. So it's worth, oh $65 million or so in Bre's pocket (and lots for a bunch of other people) for MBI to sell lots of printers THIS YEAR. Next year doesn't count, apparently. Might as well burn through customer good-will to hit the target.

I haven't read the merger paperwork myself but that's what I heard.

[Kelly Crittenden]

Just so that there is some balance to this thread . . . I have successfully printed many items with my 5th Gen. I have attached a picture of many of the items I have printed. I do agree that not everything is perfect with the printer; I am particularly disappointed that the wireless printing option is not available yet. 

I just want to be sure that people know that at least one of the 5th Gens out there works. So the answer to the original poster's question is: Yes, people (at least one person anyway) do print usable parts with their 5th Gen printer.

[Patrick Huber]

Hello jahg

this is an example on the harddrive of the printer itself. you can not change the profile if you start the print directly from the printer.

it think this is the standard settings.. but i really don't know

[Patrick Huber]

Hello Kelly

Yeeesss.. pretty cool prints. thank you for sharing. at least one printer is working .. (y)

[Jetguy]

Here's my problem with your answer Kelly.

Your fellow 5th gen owners are OBVIOUSLY struggling with air prints and loss of extrusion during a print. You throw up a picture of a bunch of good prints and NO bad prints.

Somehow, that's not telling ALL of the story.

I'm not trying to doubt your success (you have pictures and proof), just that it seems rather out of place given the issues everyone ELSE seems to have.

Possibly there is something unique about your usage case or preparation that is giving you better success than your fellow owners.

What specifics can you provide your fellow 5th Gen owners about your printing environment (ambient temp in the room, location, airflow, filament used, preparation tips)?

What settings did you use in the Desktop software?

Are most of those models downloaded from Thingiverse or designed by you in various CAD programs?

What previous experience and machines did you own before using the 5th Gen Replicator?

[Jay]

Just a hint for any MBI upper management....Release the R2 (4th gen) with a fixed X cable mount, design a better build plate, lower the price to $1600-$1800 and you won't be able to keep them in stock....As much grief as everyone's giving you there's a few of us who've, with help from on here, gotten their R2's to run fantastically. 

Oh...and fix the minor problems on the R2X, lower it to $2000 to $2200 and you'll see them sell well also...it could be one of the better dual color ABS machines with a little work....

These new 5th gens and their 'smart' extruders? Send them back for more R&D, more QA, and get the problems fixed...cause the way you've locked it up you'll never get as many 3rd party fixes as you did with the previous generation....just saying.

And I'm not a shill OR hater...I just happen to own both an R2 and an R2X.....but SOMEBODY at MBI needs to get out and push the cart down the road....

Cheers

Jay

[Kelly Crittenden]

My response was to the original poster's question (title of thread): "Does anyone print usable parts with his Makerbot 5th Generation Replicator?" I didn't write anything that should be construed any way other than, "yes, it is possible to print usable parts with a MBI 5th Gen." Therefore, I believe that I stuck to that topic pretty well. 

I don't doubt that there are people struggling with the 5th Gen, because I have seen evidence of their struggles. I was simply providing a counterpoint that not everyone is having so many problems. 

My printer isn't perfect, and I have had a few issues with it:

1. The biggest issue that I have noticed is homing for the z-axis. If I leave the machine completely to print on its own, I will get an "HES" error about 20% of the time. As long as I watch the process, I can avoid this error by placing a piece of cardstock under the extruder assembly when the process reaches 77% complete and I think that the nozzle is close enough to the build plate. 

2. I have had one air print (three times) on a particular model that I haven't diagnosed. I believe there is an error in the file though, as the error occurs at the same point in the printing process each time. So far, I have only had this error with this one particular model.

3. I am a little disappointed that the printer did not ship with all the features enabled.

4. I did have a lifting issue with a few prints when I tried printing without a raft. My solution to that issue is to just print everything with rafts.

Here are some more details on the questions that you specifically asked:

What specifics can you provide your fellow 5th Gen owners about your printing environment (ambient temp in the room, location, airflow, filament used, preparation tips)?

I print in a climate controlled workshop, where the temperature is around 70F, but it does vary more than I would like. I did position the printer in a location with no/minimal cross flow of air. I have used filament from MBI, as well as filament from MatterHackers. I do my best to make sure that the filament is dry (minimize moisture absorption). I print on blue painters tape. I only print from a USB stick (no particular reason other than I don't have a computer or ethernet near the machine.) 

What settings did you use in the Desktop software?

I have used each of the three default (high, med, low resolution) settings, and only changed the infill based on the particular application. I believe I did have one print at 0.15mm layer thickness, but other than that I have pretty much stuck to the defaults. I have not changed speeds, or temperatures. I haven't even checked to see if that is even possible with the new software. I do think the printer can print faster than the defaults, but I haven't had the need to look into that.

Are most of those models downloaded from Thingiverse or designed by you in various CAD programs?

The models in the picture that I attached are pretty much all models from Thingiverse. Oh, and three of the models are from the Makerbot Store. I have printed my own designs without any trouble. My personal designs are modeled in SolidWorks.

What previous experience and machines did you own before using the 5th Gen Replicator?

This one is probably the kicker, and I do have most of this information on my profile (at least I think I remember including it, but I could be wrong there). I am an engineering professor who teaches classes in product design. I have also been working with 3D printers for over 10 years. I actually saw my first 3D printer in 1995 at a medical device company I was touring, and I was hooked from the first sight. I have worked with many 3D printers: ZCorp, Dimension 1200, uPrint, Replicator 2, Cupcake, Cube Trio, and Ultimaker 2. I have also built my own Prusa Mendel. I certainly have experience with 3D printing and with microcontrollers, and CNC in general. 

I just wanted to offer the other side of the experience to the thread. 

Thanks,

Kelly

[hjorthmobile]

I got my 5th gen yesterday. Was printing in 1½ hours. Never did a print before. Did a micro space monkey and a mr. jaws ok in yellow PLA. Did a gnome that started extruding thin half way and clogged up at 80%. Did unload/load and resume and finished print but ugly. Did a 10 hour estimated print of 2 toys that ran for 15 hours and then started extruding thin. Now completely thin extrusion and skipping steps. Did firmware upgrade to 1.0.2.33 and still having homing errors, underextrusion. Will give in soon and contact support on Monday.

P

[hjorthmobile]

I checked the toolpath preview of this and it looked OK - the top is resumed after unload/load cycle.

My 10 hour job that started air printing after 15 hours. It has been thin ever since...

[hjorthmobile]

Kelly, great looking parts, congratulations. What would be on your list of things to try if your extrusion became very very thin and the filament did not get pulled in when you ran the "load filament" process?
Apologies for the very direct question, and a big thanks for sharing.

[Patrick Ramirez]

OK. I gotta jump in here somewhere....

I received my MakerBot 5th Gen, on Monday April14th...

I'm an advanced user of computers and technology, and am really into "cutting edge" type devices. In short...

I have not been able to print a single part. Not even a raft, for a single part. I've been tinkering with this thing all day, and spent late, late nights troubleshooting and tinkering. I've combed the forums, and tried everything... I think.

The loading, unloading seems to be going generally well. I'm sure that there is no blockage of any sort. My filament comes out with decent volume, during the loading, but then I get very thin extrusion at the start, and then "ghost prints". I've tried over the network, as well as from the USB with the same results. Leveled the build platform numerous times... I don't get any "homing errors" or anything. It's like the motor, in the carriage is not pushing the filament out. I have the latest firmware, v1.0.2.

I did notice something though... When I fo the unloading/reloading process, I have to manually push or pull the filament. I can feel the motor reacting when I apply force, but it doesn't move on it's own. I can turn the castle nut by hand and feel the firmness of the motor. I suspect it's a firmware issue though...

Oh yeah... Technical support is a JOKE at best, even after I paid the extra for technical support. They barely respond, with very basic suggestions. I'm really patient with new technology and updates and such, but am quite frustrated at teh "lack of responsiveness" from Makerbot. Just communicate... Something! Anything! Even...

"Hey we realize there's a problem and are working on a fix."

That'd be great. I'm thinking about asking for an RMA to send the thing back at this point. These things are expensive, and we can't even get any decent correspondence. Ridiculous!

I'm an Electronics Engineer by profession, so... I get it. I can even design one of these (albeit it'd take a lot of time)

But... Please respond. I mean C'mon... I'm ready to prototype.

[Scottbee]

Bottom line:  if the filament drive system can't pull or push the filament with authority, then you're never going to be able to get a good print.  On my Rep2X I can barely hold the filament still when the extruder is pulling on it, and there are reports of direct drive extruders completely lifting (smaller) machines off of the table when they are being fed from an overhead reel that gets a tangle.

Something is certainly amiss.

[hjorthmobile]

I have the same problem. Replacement for my clogged extruder is on the way but hangs in customs over easter. I tried to run the "Attach smart extruder" option without the extruder present as per request of MBI support.

The castle nut spun erratically and then stopped. After a few tries the top of the gantry started smoking !

Needless to say i have now shut down and wait for reply from MBI. I orderd and paid in late january and have still only been able to do a few incomplete prints - and have some 15 hours of semisuccessful printing.

Please be careful i think a jammed filament drive can get very hot indeed!

P

[Don Musilli]

April 20, 2014. I had a similar problem with my new Replicator 5th Gen. Then I got a new smart extruder from MBI and it has worked extremely well. No printing problems, no clicking noises and the filament loads, feeds and extrudes as it should. I printed an object that took 6 hours the other day and the unit didn't miss a beat. I am willing to bet it is the extruder.

[jtuei]

I received my 5th gen last Monday. I've been printing good parts since then. I'm paranoid so I level the build plate daily.

I printed the nut and bolt sample and it was great. Printed a bunch of objects from Thingaverse...also good.

1:24 Windsor Chair

Coral Cuffs

Feather earrings

Tiki

...all good.

"Make Robot" didn't print so nicely because of the design. There are parts of it that kind of starts from midair...probably needed some supports. This is not the fault of the 5th gen MakerBot

Have tried clear filament (comes with MakerBot), blue, orange, white. So far so good.

One thing that I noticed is that the first layer sometimes does not go on because I think the nozzle is pressing too much against blue tape. I've back the knob off 1/8 of a turn after leveling each knob.

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:57:16 AM UTC-7, Jay wrote:

Patrick

Those look like classic 'air prints'....the 5th gen's 'smart extruder' was touted as the end of those. (wry smile)

Could be several reasons for it...at least on a 4th gen.

If you get knocking when it's printing a raft that usually means the build plate is too close to extruder head. The filament is backing up because it can't flow.

Might be heat soak....where the heat is slowly rising up the extruder stack and the filament gets soft...which allows the drive wheel to skip (knocking)...which leads to it not feeding enough. *(this is my best guess for prints that fail after starting well)

If it was a 4th gen it might be the filament was too big or too small...that would fool the system into extruding too big or too small a bead...BUT...if you're using the new MBI filament rolls it should be close.

There's just not enough info out for the 5th gens yet....

Have you called MBI and had them weigh in on it?

Cheers

Jay

[Patrick Ramirez]

Well... After a slow response from Makerbot, they sent me a shipping label today, to send my extruder back. Supposedly it was failed, right out of the box. They have authorized a new one to be sent to me, so I am once again waiting patiently. Thanks for sharing your stories, as it gives me a little bit of hope. Now let's hope I get a happy ending, after I receive a new extruder. We'll know in a couple of days, I guess. I'll post an updated as soon as it happens.

-Patrick

[Patrick Ramirez]

Wow! Smoke doesn't sound good at all. Good luck with that. Have you received the new extruder yet?

[Patrick Ramirez]

Surprise, surprise... I just received the new extruder today (shipped to my work). That's a pretty fast turnaround, as I wasn't expecting this until next week, actually... I won't know if it'll work yet until after I get home but I'm hoping like hell, that this was at the root of my problem. I'll respond back later and let you know how it goes...

Again... I have not even experienced my "first" print yet. I was having problems right out of the box.

[Mr. Potato Head]

I too have a new 5th generation makerbot and am having the exact same problems as the pictures showed above. The first 3-4 small prints worked really good. I was excited thinking, "Wow, this thing is fixed and better than the 2X I had, goodjob MakerBot...."     Wrong, the first larger print I tried to do got about 3 hours in and failed. Clogged extruder, which you cannot unclog btw.....

Now I'm trying to figure out how to fix it, but I too am leaning towards the RMA...... I'm going to give it the ol' college try first, but if it goes like my 2X experience, they can keep it.

There's nothing more frustrating than a 15% printed part.

MBI seriously needs to up their R&D game, hire more engineers to meet Marketing's goals, or postpone selling crappy product. This product launch is a failure and another black eye to the company.

[tlocane]

After many false starts and a fatally clogged smart extruder and eventually a replacement, my 5th gen is printing fine. I've actually been able to design a new piece and successfully print it out. Any print issues with this new piece was due to my own "new to 3D printing" and inexperience. The 5th gen actually prints quite nicely when it's working properly. I have never used a rep 2 or any other printer so I have no point of reference for comparison.

I have had several issues with MakerBot Desktop 3.0.1, the latest version. I've had to uninstall and reinstall several times over the last week. It will often stop connecting to the printer or refuse to prepare/export a file. I usually use my flash drive for autonomous printing rather than sending a print job from my computer.

 

[Ken Basteiro]

Patrick I hate to tell you but you are going to have the same issues again.... and you will continue having them until the extruder is redesigned. I was getting some amazing prints after they did an update (I did send an extruder back before the update though). I had a total of 3 extruders and all of them eventually clogged. I actually loved the printer and the quality I was getting; however its the extruder "THE SMART EXTRUDER" that has failed my prints. There was nothing like doing a 8hour or longer print only to come in 3 hours into that print and have your extruder clogged. I ended up returning mine. When they fix that extruder I will buy another one. Andre was my support person and because of him I will purchase from Makerbot again. I hope I am wrong and you have nothing but great success with the GEN 5 but I know how it will end for you. Makerbot fix the Extruders and you'll have tons of loyal followers. Your customer support has always been so nice and helpful; however they can only do so much when it comes to a failed part.

[lp]

I was having the same issues, I reset the printer to factory setting, then i try and print the table example, it did an excellent job, I think the problem is with the updated firmwares.

[Jeremy Rosser]

I printed this on the 5th gen the other day, not too bad of quality.  Just some stringing that will hopefully be taken care of with firmware.

[Jetguy]

You mean the same updated firmware that I told you 5th gen owners had "loosened" the tolerance on homing in effort to stop throwing error messages but did nothing to to fundamentally solve homing produced bad prints?

Then, returning to an older firmware that at least screams at you the machine didn't home properly, so you know to abort and try again produces better prints?

Pure rocket science I tell you.

[Arthur Tilly]

Hi, new here and only been printing on my 5g for a day, but it hasn't been too bad.  The build plate won't level (the front knob doesn't appear to do anything, and goes too tight to turn before the light comes on).  I can fool it by pushing upwards on the build plate until the light goes on.  The side-to-side seems to work reasonably well, and actually does move the plate.  So I levelled the plate by eye by inserting thin strips underneath, which seems to have worked ok.  As long as you use a raft it doesn't matter too much if it's a bit out of level, as long as the nozzle doesn't touch the surface and completely block the feed.  Once it's finished the first layer of raft the rest of it is self-levelling.

I ran the Tower of Pi overnight (20 hours in total at high resolution), which has turned out ok but very stringy (in black PLA).  This might be the material.  And it's a particularly tricky print with millions of on/off positions.  Other colours haven't been so stringy.  I'm liking the look of prints in the white PLA a lot better.

It isn't half noisy and slow though... and I hate the way the software gives you almost no control.  The Cuda software for the Ultimaker appeared a lot better.

Speaking of which, I wanted an Ultimaker 2 but they were advertised as at least 8 weeks lead time.  So I ordered an Ultimaker 1 instead.  They took money from my credit card immediately, and 8 weeks later when I contacted them to find out where it was they said they were still waiting for some parts to be delivered.  So I got a refund from them and ordered the 5g instead.  Although they did the same thing (took money immediately), it did turn up just a month later so not too bad considering.  It looks pretty much like the entire 3d printing industry are a load of cowboys generally.

Perhaps one day Apple will make one and it'll work.  Or perhaps Sony...

[Stan Richardson]

Feeling the pain! Our first smart extruder had homing issues because it would not seat properly after the nozzle was depressed into the bed when homing. The nozzle seemed to move off center a little when pushed in and then would not properly seat all the way down. Occasionally it would seat properly so we were able to complete homing and then print. The first prints with that head looked good and I had no failures for the first 8 or 10 prints. I successfully printed with grey, natural, translucent blue, black, and translucent red. Most of these were my own files created in Sketchup, exported as STL and repaired by Netfab repair service <https://netfabb.azurewebsites.net/>. I also printed some of the examples and a couple of Thingaverse items. 

I had contacted MB support about the homing issue so they sent a replacement extruder. I should have kept the original one since the replacement seemed to dribble more and print lots of threads between open areas of the piece. Then it started jamming and clicking mid-print as others have described. I tried lowering the temperature but only 5 degrees and did not see a significant change. Print quality was erratic and air prints occurred. I again contacted MB support and they sent a third smart extruder.

The third one is even worse and would not even successfully print a raft, much less a piece on top of it. I am not sure what to do at this point. I just put extruder #2 back on since I still have it and I am trying some other ideas including lowering the temperature even more. The threads between areas lead me to believe it is too hot.

Clearly this machine (or perhaps only the extruder) is not ready for prime time. We are trying to use this in a grade school and though we have a great deal of technical expertise on our staff, the time it is taking to work out the bugs on this thing is unacceptable in this environment. Perhaps an RMA is in order.

I have a question about the fan, that one of you may be able to answer. I can hear the fan running when the extruder is warm, but I cannot see the radial fan spinning. I can rotate the fan by hand but I have yet to see that fan spin. Are there two fans?

Thanks, --Stan

[hjorthmobile]

In answer to the title of this thread : I am now at 100hrs printing, and after the return of my 5tg gen from makerbot it has been running very well. I have done cubes, a large squirrel, knobs for drawers,(yellow MBI PLA at 230C 200micron) a nespresso dispenser, garden gnomes of my own design and figurines (Clear natural PLA at 220C 200 microns). I do not use canola oil (yet). I try to keep my objects away from the center of the build plate to minimize clicking due to 1st layer being too close (see thread about 1st layer).
I did not re-level after last prints and it seems fine. I will do a photoblog soonish with all the many pics i did of prints and hope for comments for improvements. Also i am planning a new youtube video. I almost gave up when the unit had to go back to the US, but now i am actually having fun. I will get into proftweak next and work on the first layer startZ. Also i am compiling a email for thoughts-at-makerbot-dot-com with my observations and the few misunderstandings i had i the menus and documentation. This may never be read but i feel obliged to do it.Firmware is 1.03.44 and i cant wait for the iOS apps.

[Bryon Miller]

Dip Filament into some canola oil before loading it.  I have a Rep2 and do this, however I clear out my clogs first and I don't know how you do that on 5th gen extruders.  Sounds like yours is already clogged and only going to get worse.  The examples you show and explain are identical to the rep 2 when plastic starts to slowly clog up the extruder.  Lucikily for us Rep 2 owners all we have to do is tear down our extruder and push out the plastic with the smallest included hex wrench, shine a flashlight up through the nozzle so we can see it by looking straight down the heat block.  If you see light, it's cleared.  Put it all back together, heat it up, take a small amount of canola oil and put it on the tip of the filament (I put on about as much as the length of my thumbnail), load it and you're good to go for a very long time before you might get another clog.  Downtime = 20 to 30 minutes if there's a TV on in the background and you're somewhat interested in what's on.

As far as I know, 5th gen have to return the item to MBI and wait forever for a replacement.  Downtime = 2 weeks with on average 10 hours uptime before having to go through the same process all over again. 

So when you get your replacement extruder because you're certainly going to have to return the one you have, it's starting to clog.  Ask MBI if you can use Canola Oil like on the old machines.  If it works the same, it should take a lot longer for the clogs to happen.

[Will Boswell]

Yes, mine is doing that too. I've noticed the spools jamming which stops the filament from feeding, almost like they're not being wound on consistantly.

I'm on my 2nd extruder and am considering returning the printer. It's just not stable enough.

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:05:31 AM UTC-5, Patrick Huber wrote:

I got my replicator 5th gen last week. first i printed some nearly good parts... then i an into some strange problems. the parts suddenly got really worse during or in the end of printing. see pictures:

[Will Boswell]

True Blue has been the best for me. It produces a slightly shiny finish.

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 11:52:42 AM UTC-5, hjorthmobile wrote:

I will have my 5th gen unboxing tomorrow. What color filament would you suggest for first attempts?  I have red, yellow, natural, black and true white. I know to avoid the black. Maybe the red (makerbot) for starters?

[hjorthmobile]

Thanks Will.
I went with yellow MB. It does a nice smooth surface but gets a bit stringy at 230C. I find the translucent natural (clear) MB PLA at 220C the most easy now on on the 5th gen. See results at 3dprintphotos.blogspot.com

[Burn Zero]

OK, I have now done it :( I had to disassemble my "smart" extruder. It stoped working, and I tried evrything I know, but it didn't worked, so, the only way for me was to try and see if I could fix it my self.

surprising, it is made with very bad design, there is parts there made out of plastic right above the heating element, and that IS the problem. Filement pass trough this part, and in my case, as I think in many other caeses, it stop printing becuse filement get stuck in this part.

I got some pictures for you from inside "smart" extruder, and there you see what I mean.

After that first time, I had to open my extruder several time, and the problem was allways the same place. After some time, I just made the hole some bigger with a 2mm drill, and after that, it never happened again.....

I am lookin forward to see what you guys will say after you have seen this pictures....

Ragards,

Burn-Zero

[Ryan Carlyle]

That's an interesting place for filament to jam. I don't think anyone else has posted that one before.

The fact that the part is made of plastic is not likely an issue, because the injection molded parts are high-temp PC-ABS plastic and that part is above the finned thermal barrier where everything is supposed to be fairly cool. But it's very possible that the hole is too small.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Also, you need to call Makerbot and get the new smart extruder with 6 fins. They have not been asking for the old one back to my understanding.

[Sam Schreiber]

We called in and asked for the new one today, and they seemed to still want our old design extruder back. Luckily we were able to get the new one shipped out first so we aren't putting the printer out of service in the meantime.

[Eric Hanson]

Unfortunately, I received the following email notice when I requested a replacement smart extruder for my current clogged extruder.  "We've run into some delays on parts, which has caused a delay in shipping your smart extruder.".  It has been more than a week and no response to my last request on shipment.