See:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579797.msg6533760#msg6533760
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579797.msg6517601#msg6517601
http://safecointalk.org/index.php/topic,42.0.html
Basically, The Mastercoins raised are such a large amount of the Mastercoin market that they are useless.
In addition, only holders of Mastercoin BEFORE the announcement made a good deal, you couldn't just buy Mastercoin with Bitcoin because the price rose too quick.
This IPO allowed Mastercoin holders to cash out essentially.
Also the Bitcoins are being used by Maidsafe for development not Mastercoin because the Mastercoin side is almost valueless.
It's arguable that the bitcoin backers should of got a even better deal than Mastercoin backers because the only value really is in the Bitcoins.
Please try to sell the 20% of all Mastercoins Maidsafe holds. The price will plummet to several cents.
The bitcoin backers should at least be paid 100% more MaidSafecoin immediately. If not I will request an allowance that bitcoins backers be allowed to send their MaidSafecoin back to Maidsafe for a full refund of their bitcoin.
If either request is denied, legal action may be the only other alternative, the pricing structure was clear fraud as the Mastercoin "experts" designed this as a giant pump at the expense of the Bitcoin backers.
Now Maidsafe holds so much Mastercoin that it's impractical to use so the only utility comes from Bitcoin, yet the bitcoin backers are several times worse off.
It's simple, allow a refund mechanism or pay 100% more the bitcoin backers.
Thanks.
I find it tedious to keep hearing people whinging about getting a raw deal and the whole msc thing. Terms were published well ahead and if any of these people bothered to do any research, they would have taken advantage of the terms as others did. David Irvine has held his hands up that mistakes were made (probably kicking himself for using the "magic number" of 0.2 to be honest). I think this should be the end of the matter though and its ridiculous to claim redress in this way, which could only move any "unfairness" onto others who did their homework. Various prices were paid in effect, some got a massive bargain (those buying msc at 0.8), others less so - I paid 1.7 and others bought with btc. Learn your life lessons, do your research next time, stop crying, grow up and shut the fu.....basically
Not sure why you're swearing at me, did I hit a nerve?
The price of Mastercoin started to rise as soon as these terms were made public, that means my friend, only people who held Mastercoin prior to the terms being made were able to make bank and a few lucky ones getting in early.
So the majority of bitcoin backers couldn't 'research' and take advantage because this forced the price of Mastercoin up very quickly, essentially only the holders of Mastercoin benifited from the IPO, being able to offload large amounts into MaidSafecoin.
Obviously I just missed the end of my sentence off - meant to say "shut the fud down". lol.. Look, I agtee with you, as I said "some got a massive bargain ai 0.8". Where we differ is in how to deal with this situation - I say move on, you shout "unfair". I didn't gain a big advantage either (as I said I paid 1.7).
Your reasoning:
"So the majority of bitcoin backers couldn't 'research' and take advantage because this forced the price of Mastercoin up very quickly"
This was exactly the reasoning behind why msc price was set at 0.2 - because it was expected to rise. Unfortunately this plan backfired to an extent and a number of msc holders were able to "cash out" by trading for msafe coins and then selling off gradually on masterxchange.It is not known how many people we are talking about here as they are mixed in with all the others who bought msc purely to buy msafe.
Some people got a better deal than you or me, I say live with it. How on Earth would you compensate me for example , having bought with msc at 1.7, when others got it for 0.8 - why just give btc buyers a bonus?
It is striking how many people complaining on "bitcointalk", also appear to have no clue as to what maidsafe actually is or does, yet they chucked money at it. this shows that the IPO was just the latest pump and dump scheme to jump aboard in the minds of the trolls - pure speculation without any research. Most people who invested, I would suggest bought out of a desire to change the world in some way - people who grasp the concepts,goals and potential rewards for humanity, rather than making a quick buck. Some things went wrong,not out of malice but naivete at worst: lets move on, give the guys a break and let them get on with the job. Negative fud and arguments can only devalue your investment anyway, so why not get behind the team and noost your prospects of future reward? Sorry for being harsh, but this conversation really belongs on forum from whence it has migrated.
Well due to what I see as an unfairness due to the rising Mastercoin price, I would like an offer for a refund.
Anyway, it seems I am against the tide here so there isn't much left to do.
I originally hoped to start a discuission as there were lots of concerned people on the Bitcointalk forums. However it seems I am on my own at this point and to be honest, when it's one person against many it normally means the one is in the wrong.
So for now I am going to stop dicussing this, I expected concerned people from the forum to also post their concerns but that's obviously no longer the case.
But I also gave a very fair solution. We don't want to pit BTC holders vs MSC holders. We don't want to blame anyone. What we should do as a community is come together and make it right.
This does not require that you give BTC sends more MaidSafe coin. I don't want more MaidSafe coin because that just inflates and dilutes the number of total coins in a way which probably isn't a good idea and also it's at the expense of the MSC senders, some of which who probably did nothing wrong.
My post for a resolution is here: http://safecointalk.org/index.php/topic,42.msg150.html#msg150
But ignoring the BTC community when it feels it has suffered an injustice is the worst move. You can promise to gift rewards or benefits later on to the BTC addresses associated with the crowd sale which don't have to be Safecoins.
For example if you look at how the Bitshares community does things with the social consensus then you have some clues about how you can resolve this without damaging any other community. Simple create a sort of "mailing list" out of the addresses who sent BTC to the crowdsale address. They've received Safecoins at these addresses but there is nothing stopping MaidSafe and the overall BTC community from sending additional benefits to these addresses.
Airdrops may be an option. Litigation is not an option and to do that could threaten not just the MaidSafe community but the entire altcoin and Bitcoin community. It will result in scrutiny which could potentially ruin the long term potential of the SAFE Project and I think you underestimate the long term importance of this project.
Additionally you could also airdrop according to different donation patterns. Small donors could receive large airdrops from certain projects and developers. This would allow a fresh start.
But I'd rather there not have to be a fork. I'd rather MaidSafe as a team get on board with an airdrop solution. It does not have to be an airdrop of Safecoins because I understand a deal is a deal. Nothing stops the MaidSafe team from developing some other sort of project and giving the coins exclusively to the BTC holders as a way of saying thanks.
MaidSafe would have no money to spend right now if not for BTC donors. MaidSafe has no contractual obligation to BTC donors but they do have an obligation if they want to maintain BTC community support in the long term.
To maintain that support in the long term the MaidSafe team has to take care of the people who took care of it. The MSC donors aren't the people who are currently funding MaidSafe which means the MSC donors are set to get something for nothing, and while this might not be intentional, I don't see why the MSC donors should get the vast majority of benefits when their funds aren't the funds which can be spent. If BTC is being spent then MSC was used only to test the smart property feature.
This could have been accomplished with Counterparty just as easily. So while Mastercoin is important and MSC donors should get what was promised, it does not make the Mastercoin community look good to be selfish about this situation.
the $ value received and used by the MaidSafe team is coming from the BTC side.
so why was MSC used at all?
This has been fully explained in a number of forums by the Maidsafe team on bitcointalk etc inc here:
We don't want to pit BTC holders vs MSC holders
Then don’t
I don't want more MaidSafe coin
Eh?
You can promise to gift rewards or benefits later on
Erm….. no.
For example if you look at how the Bitshares community does things with the social consensus……
General community consensus appears to be, erm….no
it does not make the Mastercoin community look good to be selfish about this situation.
Take this up with the Mastercoin community.
Airdrops may be an option.
So may kissing my arse.
Litigation is not an option
Correct and neither is making idle threats.
I think you underestimate the long term importance of this project.
Just…..lol
Seriously, just do one and stop whining, you knew the terms before you bought…end of.
+1
It is up to the community to right the wrong, and
My posts were perhaps misinterpreted. I don't think you Dr.Irvine or the MaidSafe team has any further obligations. The crowdsale is finished and I'm not advocating people try to change the past.
No worries, but no need to promote me I am just David, not a Dr. :-) Thats Mahmoud and Qi no me.
On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 11:49 PM, David Irvine <david....@maidsafe.net> wrote:
No worries, but no need to promote me I am just David, not a Dr. :-) Thats Mahmoud and Qi no me.
Also not the boss either maidsafe.net/team
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David Irvine
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It’s a nice touch :)))
I find it shocking that this has been brushed aside and that you may be taking the sentiments of two community members (most likely from the MSC side) as a representation of the entire state of the community
Whereas you and your cohorts are irrefutably representative of the majority of the btc community, just because you claim to be”?
I started wading through your post to try and pick the bones out a bit. It starts with mainly deriding the “foolish” dev team for various “gross oversights” around crowdsale etc. Helpfully though, (unfazed by the fact this subject has been talked and answered to death) you go on to tell us all what the team should have done. Anyway…….
It almost seems as if you tried to find a shortcut to this situation.
What do you mean by this?
This sentence:
We should have just abstained from obtaining a stake in a project some of us have been following for years?
And this sentence:
It still does not make sense to me why mastercoin was even involved with this process at all
are incompatible, do more research about the need for an intermediary coin linked to blockchain was necessary.
As it stands, in the future if the value of maidsafecoins reaches a certain price and I can sell one stake for $1000 profit, I know that those who invested via msc will be selling for $2000-$4000 profit.
Says it all really, and yes,” just saying "you knew the rules" or "its over now so deal with it" will have to do you, ok because that’s just the bottom line and we would like the devs to be able to get on with their work, rather than keep answering the same things. Please take it to the forum if you need to..
Can’t be arsed answering anything else to be honest