Mentorship

[Jeff Steinhauer]

Just a couple thoughts on mentoring.  This group has some wonderful people with a wealth of knowledge on many different topics beyond beekeeping.  As beekeepers we are constantly learning and adapting.  Yesterday I was lucky enough to have Greg stop by my place for about an hour to help me understand the basics of maintaining an apple tree.  He helped me assess the health of my tree, to identify problem areas, and marked branches to be removed, setting the angle of the cuts to make sure the tree could heal.  He helped me identify and clean up some of my previous mistakes so that my tree can continue to produce for another 30 years.  Those who are willing to share their knowledge should be thanked and appreciated for their time, so thank you Greg. 

As with many things in life pruning a fruit tree, keeping bees, etc. there are more than one way to go about it.  Going into new areas of interest, we need to respect those who are willing to take the time out of their day to impart knowledge upon us.  Please keep in mind that those mentors come from many different places in our lives.

Best wishes,
Jeff S.

[Greg V]

Thanks Jeff.

Time to prune is here again, indeed.

At least the apples are more predictable. 

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[Barbara]

I agree that mentorship is a great opportunity.  Unfortunately, I've found that finding a mentor is actually quite difficult.  I asked last year with no responses, and the latest thread in this group about finding a mentor only got one offer (at least in the public thread; hopefully the poster got private responses).  I decided to just go for it and will be doing trial and error this year.  It's an expensive way to learn a hobby that can be nearly $1,000 to get started, but I'm also not going to post every week until someone responds.  Just something to keep in mind - if you really are willing to mentor people, please don't make them beg or chase you down.

[Jeff Steinhauer]

That's a good point Barbara,
I took on a few people who were interested in beekeeping last year.  It was much harder, but still a good experience for all.  Sorry that no one reached out to you, were are you located?

Cheers,
Jeff S.

[John Thompson]

Mentorship can depend a lot on location. Being in Stoughton, I wouldn't want to mentor someone that takes a bit of drive, like middleton, for example. Time is also a factor, of course.

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[Paul Zelenski]

Covid is also a huge factor. Normally I offer to mentor folks. Last year I didn’t at all. This year I mentioned I’d be open to it once vaccines start rolling out. I suspect im not the only one who feels this way, especially last year when so much was unknown. 

On Mar 8, 2021, at 5:14 PM, John Thompson <johntho...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Scott Johnson]

When I was in St. Louis, Eastern Missouri Beekeeping Association matched up new beekeepers with volunteer mentors on a more formal basis (a point person gathered the names of mentees and volunteer mentors and matched them up by location).

We could think about something like this. It takes some upfront work but was very useful for me as a beginner to have a specific person I could turn to with the knowledge that they had signed up to help me.

Scott

========================================
Scott Johnson Ph.D.

Director
Low Technology Institute

========================================

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[Joshua Schmidt]

That is a great idea Scott. I wonder if a "baby step" might be to create a section on the website called "available mentors" that list people who would be willing to take on a mentorship role for people in the area. 

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[Paul Zelenski]

If someone wants to put in the effort to organize any type of mentor program, I’m sure it would be greatly appreciated. Anything from baby steps to a full blown program would be fantastic. The great part about our club is that it allows for anything to happen; it just requires someone to take the initiative and do the work.

 

It’s also an interesting question what people are expecting of a mentor. Are they looking for a few tips here and there, or someone to allow the mentee to come along on inspections, or for the mentor to come to the mentee’s bee yard for every inspection. Being a good mentor can be incredibly time consuming and a lot of work. It also works best if the two can develop some type of friendly connection. I can certainly understand why the number of mentors is limited by the number of people willing to be generous with their time. Personally, I enjoy teaching people, but am limited currently by covid and the care I provide to my high-risk mom.

 

Even when people offer to provide labor in exchange for learning, there is only so much ‘dumb labor’ that is required. Maybe it’s just me, but I end up spending way more time teaching than actually getting work done. Not only do I feel bad making them do mindless work, but I find myself slowing down the work I am doing to explain everything. An experienced beekeeper is probably doing things at a pace that is virtually useless to an observer trying to learn. It would be more efficient for me to just teach a free class than take people up on the offer. Maybe I’m just bad at accepting help; maybe they would truly be happy to spend a few hours waxing frames or carrying supers for a chance to look over my shoulder or chat about bees.

 

Anyway, I’m rambling. TLDR, an effort to organize mentors would be appreciated and I’d be happy to participate when the threat from covid has lessened.

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[MARY FLANAGAN]

I am guessing your club already does this, but just in case. . .

 

As a new beekeeper, I did not have a 1:1 mentor, but I did learn (and appreciate) so much from club hive side meetings: at key times during the year, one of the experienced members would host the meeting in his/her apiary and demonstrate 1) diagnosing/cleaning out dead outs; 2) comparing overwintered hives; 3) how to install packages/nucs/new queens; 3) spring feeding set-up; 4) making a split; 5) checking for mites; 6) fall feeding and hive wellness check; 7) getting the hive winterized, etc.

 

These hive sides are like classes but also allow for some hands-on. I did my first package installation weeks before I got my first package. Of course, several of the above can be grouped together. With covid on the wane and vaccs on the rise, hopefully there can be more outdoor, in-person meetings.

 

Also, in lieu of a mentor, it really helped me to know from experienced beekeepers which video 'experts' were actually relevant. I have picked up several favorites just from your group conversations. 

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[Barbara]

I am outside Black Earth.  I think my biggest issue with part of this group is that some people are very vocal that you should never get into bee keeping until you have hands on experience, but then people aren't given the chance.  It can be frustrating when there aren't a lot of hands on learning opportunities.  Perhaps I am merely reading tone into people's comments.

Mary, I love that idea.  I think that is maybe what the meetings used to be?  I joined mid-pandemic, so I can't really say.

[Paul Zelenski]

I think they’re all great ideas. We used to do more hands on meetings. But then we used to be a more active in person club in general with routine attendance over 50. 

Again, once covid safety is less problematic, I’d be happy to host at my house. 

As for beginners without a mentor: you do you. Some people learn fine from books and the internet. Other people need hands on learning. This group is also very good about giving guidance. Also, most smaller, local bee providers are good about advice. I’m available for chats with all my nuc customers, for example. I’m pretty sure capital bee is very helpful (and has a whole lineup of classes). The larger the supplier, the less likely they are to have time for personalized help. 

On Mar 11, 2021, at 9:25 AM, Barbara <bver...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Carrie Williams]

Barbara, as soon as we can the intent is to have in person meetings. We’ll do hands on meetings as well as having people speak on a specific timely topic. With the zoom meeting there’s so much less person to person interactions, no little side conversations, there’s a lot missing. 

Carrie Williams 

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[dennis.sylvia10]

Thurs. March 11, 2021 at 12:30 pm

Good afternoon Greg,

I have 2 items:

1. Yes, a hand's on mentor program would be nice.  I've been reading a lot of books on bees lately, but I'm especially concerned about being able to over-winter bees successfully.  I've paid for bees from Datant & Sons for 3 years now, and if I can't successfully over-winter my 2 hives this year, I'm probably going to give up.   I will admit that I haven't kept a close watch on my bees, I prefer to leave them alone most of the summer, per Fedor Lazutin's book, Keeping Bees with a Smile.

(A vision and practice of natural apiculture).  I did wrap my hives with black roofing paper to keep them warm, before the cold weather hit us last year.

2.  I do have an overgrown apple tree (my 2 hives are under it) and I'm planning to do severe pruning this year.  In fact, I've started but I've got lots of suckers (which provide a safe haven for birds when the hawks or the peregrine falcon come around) but it is getting old and definitely needs pruning.  It probably needs "topping off" since it's supposed to be a drawf but I'm not sure quite how to go about it.   I've watched a video on Pruning an old apple tree and plan to cut off all downward-hanging branches and all crossed limbs, but after that, what do I do next?   Should I cut the suckers completely off or cut them back to about a foot from the tree trunk?  I don't want to over-prune my tree and accidentally kill it.

Jeff had high praises for your knowledge and if you have time, you can come over to my house and look at my tree.  I live on the north side of Madison and you can call me at 630-9795 to discuss this further.

Sincerely,

Sylvia J. Dennis

P.S. I'm not working now so my time is very flexible.

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 5:07:55 PM UTC-6 voro...@gmail.com wrote:

[Paul Zelenski]

I hate to be a pessimist or too critical, but we hear this a lot. Everybody wants to have bees that successfully overwinter, often with very little care from the keeper. 

Unfortunately bee keeping has gotten much harder than it used to be. The days of simply putting bees in a hive, harvesting their honey at the end of the season, and having 90% overwintering success are gone. Bees now require work and attention to be successful. You simply need to have a plan for mites, whether that is chemical treatments, alternative treatments, IPM, specifically selects genetics, etc. The list of ways people are trying to combat mites goes on and on; many of the things on the list are ineffective or downright damaging, but having a plan is still necessary. The idea that run-of-the-mill bees can simply exist naturally is outdated. 

I don’t want to be a naysayer, but if it were that easy, there’d be bees living in every hollow tree. Feral bees are having an exceedingly difficult time (some argue they've disappeared) and they have the benefit of natural selection to help them deal with challenges (not to mention they get to choose their location). Package bees have been selected to serve the purposes of commercial beekeepers, which is often severely at odds with what makes feral WI successful. 

I hate to be so negative, but I think a bit more attention throughout the year to be aware of their status and offer assistance if they need or might increase your chances of success. 

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[Tim Aure]

I know for me I'm not on a regular schedule so having some one over just adds another plate for me to juggle. Make a friend with some one in our club. I've tagged along with Joe and Jeanne.  Rich and Stacy at Capital bees are always willing to share insights. Last year I took 3 classes from Trevor Bawden. Of course it meant me driving to Milwaukee but I haven't regretted it and we've become friends. I buy packages from Mary Celley and she freely shares insites. Ive attended spring seminars in Wausau with Joe.  There are numerous good sites on the internet- all free with various levels of expertise, the American Bee Journal, Dadant gives away older issues. I believe Jeanne Hansen, Capital bees and Trevor Bawden offer classes but of course you have to pay a very reasonable price. This club is a good resource I believe people often take for granted but there are fine people I've come to know as friends through the 9 years now I've been keeping bees. Get on board. If you really want to learn there are numerous on ramps. No one does it perfect and we are all taking our lumps (and stings) in this school of hard knocks of bee keeping that I find intriguing, fascinating and addicting.🐝😉

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 11, 2021, at 1:05 PM, dennis.sylvia10 <dennis....@gmail.com> wrote:

Thurs. March 11, 2021 at 12:30 pm

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Hello Barbara,
I believe I've read the same comments that you're referring to, but had a slightly different take away.  Regardless, I'm willing to come over to help you install your package of bees and give a few pointers.  I'm by no means an expert, but with 5-6 years under my belt, I can get you up and running.  Let me know if this is something you're interested in.  You can send me an email separately.
Best wishes,
Jeff S.

[Sylvia Dennis]

Thank you, Tim.  I definitely have a "thirst for knowledge" and I'm willing to take some classes, if I think they are pertinent and helpful.  (Jeanne Hansen, Capital Bees and Trevor Bawden can all send me their class lists). 

Perhaps I do need to do more " hands-on" work and watch my bees more closely, now that I have more time.  I did give them a mite treatment strip last year.

Thanks for your advice and encouragement!

Sincerely,

Sylvia Dennis at (608) 630-9795.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/6737B04F-3200-437B-9BD1-4C4EF099F486%40gmail.com.

[Joseph Bessetti]

Feral bees are thriving where there is habitat.  Habitat includes suitable natural cavities and adequate forage.  Feral bees are not thriving in numbers anywhere in Dane County that I have witnessed.  

Aside from poor habitat, beekeeping is the greatest threat to the feral population.  Mites and disease from managed bees is a big problem.   Find an area with few beekeepers and good habitat, and you'll probably find feral bees.  There aren't many places like that in WI.  My brother is swimming in bees in Louisianna (no, they aren't Africanized), as are friends of mine in PA and many other parts of the U.S.   

Beekeeping doesn't have to require a lot of work or attention, but you need to set appropriate expectations.  Don't expect to buy bees commercial bees and be successful unless you keep them like a commercial beekeeper.  That statement is worth typing a few more times.   Don't expect to buy bees commercial bees and be successful unless you keep them like a commercial beekeeper.  Don't expect to buy bees commercial bees and be successful unless you keep them like a commercial beekeeper.  

If your bees are dying every winter, it is not always from mites.  Something other than mites is probably contributing to their failure.   Poor nutrition in fall is a big problem that is widely under-appreciated.  If you're bees don't store any honey and pollen August through October and you don't feed them they will probably die, mites or not.  If you don't believe me, ask around.  You'll be shocked how many people treat for mites and still lose most of their colonies.   It's not just because the treatments "didn't work".

If you are tired of buying bees and watching them die, the first thing you need to do is stop buying bees.   Swarms are easy to catch, and they are free.  If they die you'll feel better about the money you didn't spend on them.  Yes, most of them will just be escaped from beekeepers who bought packages.  You can buy crappy bees or you can get them for free, your choice. 

If you don't mind buying bees every year, it is legal to buy bees, not treat for mites, harvest all the honey, and just let them die.   There are plenty of people who do this.  The swarms from treated bees move into trees and other cavities and eventually collapse from mites and get robbed out.  Don't start with me about mite bombs.  Mite bombs come from bees that lack mite resistance.  

Sometimes bees will live without treatments, and there are things you can do to stack the deck in your favor, but that can start to feel like a lot of work too.  

There are some hard truths to the general state of beekeeping in our area, but it's important to understand what you're up against.   Consider carefully why you keep bees and choose your path accordingly.

Joe

[Lloyd St. Bees]

Joe, that was my favorite post of 2021 so far. Nicely done.

Paul, you get second place, also nicely done.

I couldn't agree more with both of you.

-Trevor

[Betty Grotophorst]

A mentor would be nice, even if they take a look at what you have when you have question, even if it's a photo

I really like all these  U tube videos, some good, cute, amateurish, university presentation and so on.

Good to watch and to see stuff, then do the best you can and what makes sense.

I try to "think like a bee".  The more you read or watch the better.

[Paul Zelenski]

Spot on, Joe. 

Understand your expectations and how your bees and you locale fit with those expectations. And then what attention/work your bees will require from you to be successful. 

Another thing you touch on: It is becoming more common that our flow ends in early aug and we have no fall flow. In this situation, winter basically last 9 months. 9 months is a long time...

On Mar 11, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[Paul Zelenski]

Yes! Thinking like a bee, or understanding why they do what they do and how you can support that is the key. I always tell new beekeepers to ask “why” whenever people give advice. Any time you as a question you’ll get a dozen opinions; understanding the reasoning behind it is key to those opinions being useful. 

Having a single mentor you trust can simplify that into giving a single answer and advice to follow. But eventually you’ll still want to understand the logic behind it so you can think on your own. 

This club is a great pseudo mentor in that questions and pics will get answers. Only problem is that it is difficult to sort through a stack of opinions as a new keeper, which brings us back to the first point. 

On Mar 11, 2021, at 6:23 PM, Betty Grotophorst <betty...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

Good afternoon Greg,........

Dennis - I replied directly about the pruning.

Bees - well, in Dane County, WI one can not keep bees like Lazutin.

It does not work, even if you have your hives built like his (and I do, in fact).

The hives don't matter in this context.

Discussed above in detail already.

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[Barbara]

Hi Jeff,

Trying to email you, but it says I don't have permission to reply to the author.  Would love to connect offline...

Barbara

[Joseph Bessetti]

On the topic of mentorship:

I've mentored a few people a few different ways, having people come to my yard, and/or me going to their yard.  I've also done so entirely via email and social media tools.  

One-on-one mentoring is wonderful for the person being mentored, but not very efficient.  Similarly, mentoring someone through one or two hives often doesn't provide much breadth of experience; the more hives you can get into the better.  

In my opinion, a shared apiary location would provide a much better experience.  This idea of a "club apiary" has been floated and sunk a number of times in the past for a variety of reasons.  It's likely to be a non-starter again now for many people just because of covid.

If there were a group of new and new-ish beekeepers who lived in reasonable proximity to a central, shared apiary location that they all agreed to locate 1 or more hives at and manage them together, I think that would provide a much better mentoring and learning experience.

Obviously, no single location would serve this DCBA group; people are spread out over too much area.   However, if there were a handful of people say, around the Fitchburg area, who wanted to do such a thing, and a location could be identified to place the hives, there might be a mentor available to help make it happen.

Joe

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Sent: Friday, March 12, 2021 9:49 AM
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Subject: Re: [madbees] Mentorship

 

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[Cindy Becker]

Bravo.  A much appreciated and respected answer.  

Now, how do I get on a swarm list in rural Iowa County?? Swarm chasing - the little I did prior while  in MKE - is fun!  

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 at 4:53:40 PM UTC-6 Joe wrote: