Wrapping techniques?

[Brian Gould]

What wrapping systems to people use( e.g., Just tar paper, pink foam, reflective foam, etc)

--

Brian W. Gould

149 S. Brittingham Pl.

Madison, WI  53715

608-335-1288 (cell)

608-263-3212 (office)

[Matt H]

I wrapped my first year. One hive was pink flexible foam, other hive was aluminum backed 3/4" foam board. Both hives survived. I haven't wrapped since and have had similar overwintering survival.

Personally I feel drafts and moisture are bigger dangers than heat.

[marvin]

Over the years, I've actually done some side by side comparisons of tar paper vs foam vs nothing.  But first, I'll preface this by saying all the boxes in my overwinter stack have 3/4" holes, the bottom entrance reducer is at 1" and all stacks have a 2" shim at the top for emergency feeding, and I'm in a windy exposed location.  My experience with foam is that it tends to increase moisture problems.  Or put another way, my ventilation is inadequate for foam.  Other folks may be able to provide some insight on how they ventilate with a foam insulator, but I've always ended up with a wet, moldy hive.  I've had better success with tar paper over nothing or foam.  But I've had the best success when I cluster hives together on a pallet and then wrap with tar paper.  However, that is a real pain in rear, especially with bigger stacks.  But like everything beekeeping, you'll just have to try and find the system that works best for your location.  Sometimes a simple wind break is the best solution.  But keep a keen eye on ventilation:  That parameter is every bit as important as insulation. 

[mike yohn]

What about the shiny waterheater wrapper. I have heard that is a good option. Has anyone tried using that with any good outcomes? 

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[Michael Haeger]

Question here regarding moving hives indoors ; anyone do this before , and when do you do it ? 

I need to move the hives ultimately because of their proximity to my LP gas bottle , which has caused consternation for the delivery service ( more than one guys is allergic ) , so seems like an opportune time , but I don’t want to do it while the bees are still flying .

Thanks . MH 

Sent from my iPhone

[Greg V]

Define "indoors".

Unconditioned shed is fine and beneficial.

Anything conditioned is more bad than good for bee wintering.

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Michael Haeger <mhaege...@gmail.com> wrote:

Question here regarding moving hives indoors ; anyone do this before , and when do you do it ? 

I need to move the hives ultimately because of their proximity to my LP gas bottle , which has caused consternation for the delivery service ( more than one guys is allergic ) , so seems like an opportune time , but I don’t want to do it while the bees are still flying .

Thanks . MH 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2017, at 09:12, mike yohn <myoh...@gmail.com> wrote:

What about the shiny waterheater wrapper. I have heard that is a good option. Has anyone tried using that with any good outcomes? 

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:07 AM marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Over the years, I've actually done some side by side comparisons of tar paper vs foam vs nothing.  But first, I'll preface this by saying all the boxes in my overwinter stack have 3/4" holes, the bottom entrance reducer is at 1" and all stacks have a 2" shim at the top for emergency feeding, and I'm in a windy exposed location.  My experience with foam is that it tends to increase moisture problems.  Or put another way, my ventilation is inadequate for foam.  Other folks may be able to provide some insight on how they ventilate with a foam insulator, but I've always ended up with a wet, moldy hive.  I've had better success with tar paper over nothing or foam.  But I've had the best success when I cluster hives together on a pallet and then wrap with tar paper.  However, that is a real pain in rear, especially with bigger stacks.  But like everything beekeeping, you'll just have to try and find the system that works best for your location.  Sometimes a simple wind break is the best solution.  But keep a keen eye on ventilation:  That parameter is every bit as important as insulation. 

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 9:37:55 AM UTC-5, Brian Gould wrote:

What wrapping systems to people use( e.g., Just tar paper, pink foam, reflective foam, etc)

--

Brian W. Gould

149 S. Brittingham Pl.

Madison, WI  53715

608-335-1288 (cell)

608-263-3212 (office)

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[Michael Haeger]

A barn

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[Greg V]

Barn is good. I wish I had a barn!

[Michael Haeger]

So any suggestions as to when to move the hives ?

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[Greg V]

I'd move any day; why not.

This assumes the barn is setup for bees to easily fly in and out and not get trapped outside.

[Michael Haeger]

Correct , but what about the issue of the returned to the previous hive placement ? 

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Wait for a couple cool rainy days.  Screen the entrances and keep them screened for 3 days.  When you remove the screening they will re-orient to the new location.  Some of the oldest bees might still go back, but they aren't worth much this time of year. 

Joe

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[Greg V]

Standard methods of moving bees apply. All the same.

[Michael Haeger]

Thanks all , much appreciated

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[Paul Zelenski]

Or if possible, wait until it is cold and will be cold for the rest of winter and then you can move them (gently) with no fear of stragglers 

[Michael Haeger]

Good advice ; don’t have far to go

Sent from my iPhone

[Joseph Bessetti]

Extra emphasis on "gently", especially if you use wax foundation rather than plastic, or even worse, foundationless frames.  Any natural comb filled with honey can break off quite easily during even a short move.  It gets extremely brittle when it's cold.

Joe

 

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 11:02 AM

To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Wrapping techniques?

[Michael Haeger]

Good to know , thanks

Sent from my iPhone

[Paul Zelenski]

Yes, what Joe said. Also, you want to do it on a warmish day so the bees can cluster again if they get disturbed a bit. Being gentle to not shake them out of cluster or break comb is important. Should be easy enough to be gentle if you can get someone to help, or even better also use a hive carrier. 

[Michael Haeger]

Not familiar with hive carriers . Pretty obvious what the function is , but what actually is a hive carrier , can one be made easily ? Not doubt one can buy one 

Sent from my iPhone

[Michael Haeger]

Just looked it up . Thanks 

Sent from my iPhone

[marvin]

"Indoors" is one of those things that sounds good in theory.  It certainly alleviates the wind problem....but....you're going to miss that warming sunshine come spring.  And there's nothing nicer after a crappy winter than seeing bees out in the sun on a 40 degree day taking care of cleansing flights and hive hygiene.  At that point, your shaded building becomes a winter prolonging refrigerator.  Keep in mind that everything you do in winter prep has a cost and a benefit. 

[Michael Haeger]

Valid point , but the section of the barn where I’m planning to place them is south and west facing , but that does beg the question , come Spring , when does one move the hives out

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 19, 2017, at 18:44, Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Greg V]

If you into "southern" style beekeeping and keep southern bees - yes.
You want those cleansing flights.

If into "northern" style - then not.
You do want them left in a "fridge" until spring and forget about them.
Northern bee needs no cleansing and winters better in cool.

Choose for yourself.

BTW, I keep my nucs in a shed year-around and will continue so.

Works for me.
Too bad my shed is very small and only fits few hives.

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[Greg V]

.......come Spring , when does one move the hives out........

Might as well take advantage of the barn while nights are still cold. The bees will build up faster in spring then. So - every spring is different. Decide on the spot, I'd say.

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[Greg V]

In the barn they will wake up a little later, but they will catch up fast and be less affected by the crazy spring weather swings.

[marvin]

"Northern bee needs no cleansing and winters better in cool."

If that's true, what are all the dead bees and little brown spots in the snow you see all winter near your hives?  Of course they need to get out, defecate and clear out the dead.  And they do it anytime they can all winter.  Its not a northern or southern thing. In fact, isn't stashing a hive indoors really the same as moving your hive to a more southerly location?  Those scattered sunny days when the temps hit near 40 are crucial to your hive's hygiene.  My point is that stashing them indoors out of the sun may lose you some of those opportunities.  Like I stated, every thing you do has a cost and benefit.  

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[Joseph Bessetti]

I can tell you from experience that keeping hives in a shed does not diminish their activity.  When it is warm enough outside they go out, even when the sun doesn't shine on the hive.  And this idea that they are in a "prolonging refrigerator" is simply nonsense.  

In my observation they are more active and consume less stores.  I've kept hives that had little or no stores alive through winter on a couple quarts of honey fed through a jar on top of the hive.  The warmth of the cluster apparently keeps the honey warm enough as they continue taking it all winter long.  Insulation retains heat so they don't have to produce as much.  I use a small upper entrance and have had zero problems with moisture.

Cellaring hives used to be quite common, and some of the larger beekeeping outfits in the north-central U.S. still do this in large condition-controlled warehouses.   The bees are kept in the dark at controlled temperature for months, and it certainly can be like being in a refrigerator.  Under these conditions brood-rearing can be delayed as well, depending on when the hives are brought back outside.  Cleansing flights aren't necessary at all until spring build-up kicks in.

Keeping hives inside a shed or outbuilding, with the bees still having access to daylight and cleansing flights is quite different.  Their circadian rhythm and when they start rearing brood is strongly influenced by daylight and length of day, so they brood up just like the hives sitting outside, and likely even stronger since they don't have to stay clustered as tightly during cold spells.  The practice is actually still common-place in Europe and many parts of Canada.

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of marvin <marvin...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 11:03 PM
To: madbees

Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Wrapping techniques?

[Joseph Bessetti]

I start moving them out anytime after I start seeing fresh pollen coming in, usually between mid March and early April.   I left a couple in my shed all summer long too.  It's just a pain to inspect them as the shed space I use isn't very big.

Joe 

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Michael Haeger <mhaege...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 7:45 AM

[marvin]

Kinda of a double standard going on, and we're all guilty of it a bit.   On one hand, folks seem to get on the bandwagon of developing strong overwintering local genetics i.e. the "northern" honey bee that survives with little (or even no) winter assistance.  On the flip side, there's the folks who try to southernize the environment so the bees don't have to battle so hard against their native environment.  I guess I'm more of the former, and Greg and Joe the later.   So be it.  You have to take a shot and see what works.  

[Michael Haeger]

Thanks for the history , and details , valuable stuff

Sent from my iPhone

[Greg V]

<"northern" honey bee that survives with little (or even no) winter assistance>

This is the only bee I care about and strive for.

And not only "winter assistance".

I want bee that needs no assistance whatsoever.

Working on it.

[Joseph Bessetti]

My primary focus is mite tolerance.  "Northern" bees that die if they aren't treated are no better then "southern" Bees that die even if they are.  

Keeping a few late swarms alive that would have starved for lack of stores otherwise gives me an opportunity to assess them for the traits I'm interested in the following summer.  Mite tolerant bees overwinter well in standard hive equipment.

Joe

Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone

-------- Original message --------

[Brad Keevil]

I used one last year and the hive survived, but that’s not a lot of data. I did get some more to use this year. I like that it slides on and off and is reusable. I use it primarily for wind breaks.

[DL]

I'm only in my second year of beekeeping so obviously I hold no credibility. But the philosophy I've held with all my livestock, whether sheep, poultry or bees, is similar to Marvin's: I feel the strongest genetics develop from the least assistance. With that in mind, I'm interested in a podcast where the beekeeper taped the crack between boxes rather than wrapping the whole hive. He then topped the hive with a moisture box filled with wood chips, which he changed as necessary. Any thoughts on that for here in Wisconsin?

[marvin]

Folks use a variety of approaches for the moisture issue.  Some folks put a pile of loose sugar on newspaper at the top of the hive that serves both as reserve food and a moisture trap.  Another simple practice is to replace the top cover with what they refer to as a moisture board.  It's a pressed fiber board used for sound insulation going by the commercial name of Buildrite(??? I may be wrong on the name) and homosote.  The later one is available at Menard's in 2'x2' squares.  The idea is they absorb moisture and condensation at the top of the hive, which then evaporates off at the cut edge.  Here's a link from UM, with some other useful advice:  https://www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/beelab.umn.edu/files/poster_163.pdf  

 As for taping the joints, I guess it matters in part on how badly your boxes mesh.  Certainly big gaps would benefit from it.  But the bees usually take care of gaps with propolis, beekeeping's version of caulk.  Some bees are better at it than others, and some go berserk.  I've had them close upper entrances with the stuff.  But I figure they have a better feel for drafts and proper verntilation than we do.