Hive autopsy, 2019 edition

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Diane Packett

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Nov 9, 2019, 7:38:23 PM11/9/19
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I guess if you only have one hive, the odds of survival are pretty low, although I feel compelled to point out that my very first hive, a package from Capital Bee Supply, made it through the winter, without treatment.

This one was a nuc from Paul Z, which (due to the cold wet spring) arrived late and took a long time to get going and longer to get to full strength. They always seemed to be about a month behind, but produced 2-3 medium boxes of honey. I took one box of honey, left one rest on top, and redistributed the rest in lower boxes. I treated with two half-doses of formic pro in September, but didn't test again because I hate sugar rolling and am lousy at it.

There was a big hatch-out the first week of October, with a cloud of bees orienting around the front of the hive, and a smaller one about mid-month. Two-three weeks ago, whenever we had that last warm Sunday, they were still bringing in pollen and putting nectar in an extracted super that I was trying to get them to clean out.

Last week I scraped out a lot of dead bees and some larvae, but not more than I'd expect after a cold spell. Today when I went out to put dry sugar on, they were dead. There weren't that many bees on the bottom board, or the combs, so I guess they died in the field. The hive was still stuffed with capped honey, but the pictures show a lot of bees down in the cells, which I thought they did when they were starving. I didn't see much evidence of a cluster, but several small groups of bees scattered around. Most of the bees I looked at had mites in their abdominal segments. Some had two. Even the queen had one. One of the pictures shows how they were cleaning out larvae and died, surrounded by mites. One shows that they made what Trevor called "drag queen" cells from drone comb, maybe after the queen died.

Is this what people mean when they say "mite bomb"--big infestation late in the season? Suggestions on what I could have done differently, or do you see something I don't see? I expect that next year I'll be practicing my sugar rolling technique, but even then I'll be afraid to treat later in fall. I'm not going to threaten to quit, since at this point I do have some experience and I feel like I owe it to the community to keep trying, but damn. Maybe next year's bees will be the magic mix that will answer all our problems.

Sorry, Paul. :-(

Diane
Queen.jpg
Queen with mites.jpg
Spotty brood.jpg
Stores.JPG
Queen cells.jpg
Cleaning out - mites.jpg
Bees in cells.jpg

Joseph Bessetti

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Nov 10, 2019, 9:55:43 AM11/10/19
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When they die like this with most of the bees flying off instead of being dead in the hive it's a pretty sure sign they had high virus levels. 

The mites carry the viruses of course.  Over the last 25 years the infestation level at which treatment is recommended has dropped.  It started at around 10 or more mites per hundred bees, and now many people are treating at 1 mite per hundred bees.  In other words, your mite levels don't have to be very high at all to be considered harmful by the "experts".

As bee numbers drop, the mites concentrate on a smaller number of bees, so seeing them on the dead bees is common, but not really indicative of the real problem.  People count mites and treat mites because they can't see or treat the bigger threat, the viruses and bacteria.  

Anyway, no your hive wasn't a "mite bomb".  They all died when your colony died.  At a meeting I attended last week Thomas Seeley suggested that a collapsing hive might be more accurately referred to as a "robber lure" than a "mite bomb".  I've suggested this concept myself previously.  When a colony collapses from mites, the bees that rob it out get most of the mites.  Other hives that don't rob it, even in the same yard, are minimally impacted.  A "bomb" tends to impact everything within a certain distance.  

Key question now: What will you do different next year?  (Or,  what would you like to do to avoid this same outcome?) Many beekeepers will do the same thing over and over again, hoping for a better outcome.

Joe 



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Carrie Williams

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Nov 10, 2019, 10:09:57 AM11/10/19
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Diane, I’d at least take some of the bees to Capital Bee. Stacy does some testing. At least you could rule out what she tests for.

Carrie

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Diane Packett

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Nov 10, 2019, 10:50:43 AM11/10/19
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Hi Joe and Carrie,

So, viruses from mites. When you say "Stacy tests bees", you mean for viruses, correct? And it works even if they've been dead for awhile? I thought viruses for pretty fragile.

As to what to do differently next year, I'd appreciate some suggestions.

I could monitor more and treat for mites more often. Didn't someone say at a meeting that the state bee inspector recommends treating every month?

I could treat for mites differently. Paul used thymol for a long time and had good success as I recall.

Could I treat for viruses? I read something once about nosema prophylaxis. Should I buy all new equipment?

Could I get better bees than one of Paul's overwintered queens? I don't think so. Maybe my section of Oregon is just a bad spot, with too many colonies to spread infection. Maybe I could work with someone who has chemical-free queens.

Like I said, suggestions appreciated.

Thanks.

Diane Packett

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Nov 10, 2019, 11:19:03 AM11/10/19
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I misspoke: It was late August when I treated with Formic Pro. Too early, maybe.

Joseph Bessetti

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Nov 10, 2019, 11:45:49 AM11/10/19
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Not too early.  Perhaps the treatment wasn't effective.  Maybe it didn't matter because the bees were suffering from high virus loads already.  

The more important questions for you might be:  On average, how do the rest of Paul's bees fair over this winter?  How do the other nucs that Paul sold do?

Joe





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From: Diane Packett <dlpa...@gmail.com>
Date: 11/10/19 10:19 (GMT-06:00)
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Diane Packett

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Nov 10, 2019, 12:03:26 PM11/10/19
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A neighboring beekeeper just told me about putting a formic pro strip in the hive when winterizing a few weeks ago, and that this has worked well for people she knows. I've never heard of this; did I miss something? Of course it wouldn't address the possibility of high mite/virus loads early on, but I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask.

As for how well Paul's (or anybody's) nucs do: considering all the different things beekeepers do to their bees, the surrounding colonies, and the habitat and weather possibilities, there are so many variables I'm not sure one could reliably predict which bees are better. Paul's nucs do well in Paul's bee yard under Paul's care.

I do get your point that people need to ask for better bees instead of buying the same packages every year.


Greg V

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Nov 10, 2019, 1:11:15 PM11/10/19
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I would not really worry of the "mite bomb" talks.
Do your best to prevent the external robbing (the important part from many angles) and call it a day.

Well, one of my large hives faded to mites - for me this only means I have a hive full of untainted honey and bee bread for my own use (and to share with the other bees as needed).
Some would call it an "abscond" - except the absconds don't leave a queen behind.
All bee products are free from chemicals that don't belong.
Easy harvest and storage - I just use the hive itself as a winter storage box.
This also means I don't need to worry of any significant pollution when I will harvest the propolis from this hive either.
A very good deal for me - go and find non-tainted propolis - good luck.
Well, I have lots of pure propolis for my own uses (considering the uncontrollable external input, of course).
:)
As long as you run a redundant operation - losing few hives presents just a routine season loss - replaceable by design.
Just the redundancy should be practiced by default.

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Jimmer Yunek

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Nov 10, 2019, 1:23:55 PM11/10/19
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I got a nuc from Paul and it had a very low mite load this fall. It split on its own and that hive is doing well now too.  I would not suggest it was an issue with Paul’s bees

Joseph Bessetti

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Nov 10, 2019, 3:11:35 PM11/10/19
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I'm not suggesting an issue with Paul's bees.  We can't conclude anything about any source of bees from one colony, not Diane's, and not yours either.  There will always be some colonies that die and some colonies that survive.  Some of it is influenced by the beekeeper and some by location too.  I'm interested in the overall population.  Paul's overwintering success would be a useful benchmark to know since he has a lot more of his bees than anyone else...

Joseph Bessetti

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Nov 10, 2019, 5:24:00 PM11/10/19
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Treating your hive a few weeks ago would not have helped it.   You need healthy young bees to be raised in the last rounds of brood before winter.  

Joe



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From: Diane Packett <dlpa...@gmail.com>
Date: 11/10/19 11:03 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [madbees] Hive autopsy, 2019 edition

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Capital Bee Supply Madison

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Nov 10, 2019, 8:25:35 PM11/10/19
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randy_varroa_model_5fr_nuc.jpg


One tool you could use is Randy Oliver's varroa model which you can download from his site at scientificbeekeeping.com. I ran his model based on the info for your bees: nucleus colony, 5 frames, started on April 1, with a mite migration setting of 1, which means that your bees are in an area where throughout the season there is some drift of mites (the range is 0 to 4, with 4 meaning you are surrounded by poorly managed apiaries). Starting mite count of 100 mites in the whole colony (which I would estimate is about 1% assuming about 10000 bees in the nuc, which is about 3 full seams of bees in a 5 frame nuc)  I then put in two rounds of 1/2 doses treatment with formic acid basically on Aug 1 and Aug 15 with an efficacy for each dose of 50%.  Based on Randy's model your hive would crash out, meaning fail, around November 1st.....

Rich
Capital Bee Supply

Capital Bee Supply Madison

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Nov 10, 2019, 8:33:34 PM11/10/19
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If I shift the treatment dates to later, say Aug 15 and Sept 1, then the hive crashes out about the same time....now if you shift the formic acid treatment ahead to say mid July with even a half dose, then used a thymol in beginning of September with an assumed efficacy of 90%, your mite loads would have looked more like this


randy_oliver_2.jpg

lin...@tds.net

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Nov 10, 2019, 8:33:48 PM11/10/19
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One good event of this early weather is that if your hive(s) have lots of bees present they are likely queenright.   Good luck to all of us who are trying to overwinter hives up north.  Think about shipping a few hives next year to almonds. The ones that live will come back very split possible.  We all need to think about the changes we need to make to our operations in the coming year. We need to all be flexible.  The answers of the past maybe no longer as inflexible as they seemed in the past.   I just attended Capital bees training about label and grading.  I am happy I went.  They have some other training coming up check facebook. 

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Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:23:56 PM

Subject: Re: [madbees] Hive autopsy, 2019 edition

Treating your hive a few weeks ago would not have helped it.   You need healthy young bees to be raised in the last rounds of brood before winter.  

Joe



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-------- Original message --------
From: Diane Packett <dlpa...@gmail.com>
Date: 11/10/19 11:03 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [madbees] Hive autopsy, 2019 edition

A neighboring beekeeper just told me about putting a formic pro strip in the hive when winterizing a few weeks ago, and that this has worked well for people she knows. I've never heard of this; did I miss something? Of course it wouldn't address the possibility of high mite/virus loads early on, but I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask.

As for how well Paul's (or anybody's) nucs do: considering all the different things beekeepers do to their bees, the surrounding colonies, and the habitat and weather possibilities, there are so many variables I'm not sure one could reliably predict which bees are better. Paul's nucs do well in Paul's bee yard under Paul's care.

I do get your point that people need to ask for better bees instead of buying the same packages every year.




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Diane Packett

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Nov 10, 2019, 8:34:00 PM11/10/19
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Whoa, Rich, that's scary. I'll have to look at this. What's your personal opinion on how much I should treat and when? Although I guess I could run the models myself. If I bring you guys bees that have been dead for two weeks, can you tell what viruses they have?

Joe, I think I had a big hatch-out at the beginning of October, but they didn't stay healthy, obviously.

Capital Bee Supply Madison

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Nov 10, 2019, 8:36:33 PM11/10/19
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What we can test for is nosema only...virus testing would have to go to one of the USDA labs or to an independent lab in Oregon state.

Diane Packett

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Nov 10, 2019, 8:46:45 PM11/10/19
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Yes, I treated late August, so that would still be the case. It looks like you just have one half-dose of formic there? This is more complicated than I thought, with combining different treatments at different times, because if the assumed efficacy of thymol is 90%, why not just one treat once with that. It must vary with the mite load. I'll put this on my list of things to study this winter. Thanks!



trex raptor

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Nov 11, 2019, 12:52:23 PM11/11/19
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A few points to consider:
  • I would suggest using an alcohol wash instead of a sugar roll to test for mites. I taught a class on testing/treating mites this season and we did a side by side comparison of the two testing methods on each hive that day. The results showed that the sugar roll was not accurate, 12 mites on the alcohol wash vs 1 mite via sugar roll. We used bees from the same frames when testing the methods and repeated the test on multiple hives that day. Each time the Alcohol wash proved to be more accurate.  I know that we don't like the idea of killing bees to save bees, but 300 is a drop in the bucket when the queen is laying 1k-2k per day.
  • Test in May, July, August via an alcohol wash and again after your treatment. The only way to know if your treatment worked is if you test. I use Apiguard in August and it took 3 treatments instead of just the recommended two to finally get mites down (less than 6 mites per 300) in some of the unknown mutt hives I have. 
  • Treat 3 times a season. Apivar or OA in early spring, Apiguard the first half of August, OA in late Fall. The first two treatments are really a knockdown and the OA in late fall is the one that really does the mites in since they are all exposed at that time. Unfortunately, its been too cold  to do a late fall OA dribble yet. Fingers crossed for a week in the 40's coming up before December.
  • Provide a brood break by splitting your bees in mid July or August. The split helps to plateau the mite population as it takes time for the hive to re-queen itself via using a cell. Also, you can hit the hive that is getting re-queened with OA dribble to knock out the mites after all the previous capped brood hatches but before the new queens brood gets capped. This provides a 95% mite kill. This is my favorite method of dealing with mites.
-Trevor Bawden

marvin

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Nov 11, 2019, 9:27:06 PM11/11/19
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An alternative opinion.  

Jeez....You're beating the patient to death with all your counts and treatments.  Disruption of the hive is just as bad as mites.  Try this:

Split in late spring.  Let new splits raise their own queen and get a brood break.  At some point, pinch your old queens and let those hives have a brood break as well.  Brood breaks are key.

Don't bother with mite counts.  As discussed, they're not reliable, and a needless disruption.  When you do an exam, look at ripped drone comb.  If you see a lot of mites, either treat, or preferably, cull the hive.  

Give one treatment of formic pro or Apigard in fall when the weather is right.  

Prepare for winter.  Don't worry about mites.  Get on with life.  





Joseph Bessetti

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Nov 12, 2019, 10:19:02 AM11/12/19
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I like the reply Marvin, but there's a problem:  How is a person going to split in late spring when they can't reliably get bees to survive through winter?  

The counting and the treating are supposed to keep the bees "healthy" and enable them to survive through winter.  If that worked as advertised, then there would be lots of winter survivors to split in the spring and you'd all be swimming in extra splits every June.  There are beekeepers here and there who seem to make the treatment treadmill work, but the numbers coming back from the BIP surveys don't seem to support the efficacy of the approach broadly.   Maybe it's too technically challenging and time-demanding for the average beekeeper?

This club used to have a handful of very vocal beekeepers who manage a substantial number of hives and reported good survival rates each year.  I have a sense that the last few years or so have been a bit more challenging?  Anyone out there keeping more than thirty hives and consistently having 75% or better winter survival for the last 3 years or more?  If so, what have you been doing, and what do you believe the keys to success are?  

Rich, I believe that you have more than thirty hives?  Since you recommended Randy Oliver's model, do you care to share your winter survival stats for the last 3 years and tell us what you have done to manage mites?

Joe

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Greg V

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Nov 12, 2019, 10:55:42 AM11/12/19
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I'd say instead of staying on the mite-treating treadmil - leverage the normal and natural trait of the bees - fecundity.
Learn and practice your own propagation - now that is a good treadmill to stay on (regardless of the pests, infections, and the climate change - forget after chasing these - they will always be ahead of you).
An example, this year  from single over-wintered queen (a good speciment, to be sure) I was able to expand to to 7 viable units - just for this one line.
Surely, some of these will drop off over the winter (no treatment regiment can be harsh).
But at the moment, I still have more bees than I can would like to have.

Back to Joe's comment - you winter a single colony (somehow) - from that point on really no reason to not be sustainable.
I do think getting 2-3 good queens at the very onset (from a reliable, treatment free source) is a very good idea.
Worked for me so far.




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Joseph Bessetti

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Nov 12, 2019, 3:44:08 PM11/12/19
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Yes, that is an option, but it's very different from what I'm asking right now.   I'm interested in learning how the treatment treadmill is actually working for people locally.  For most beekeepers, that is the only thing they know.  Until someone starts teaching/mentoring something else on a broader scale to this audience/club it's likely to stay that way.   

I'm particularly interested in hive losses the last few winters because I've known of some people to be hard hit.  There is at least one new virus that was rare up until about 5 years ago (VDV1) but is now being found in nearly every sample tested by the USDA ARS.  There is also a bacteria (SS1) that has been researched at UW Stout that seems to be getting more attention, but not nearly as much as the virus research.   The mites themselves have not changed, but the payload they carry seems to be getting nastier and nastier.  20 years ago mite thresholds for treatment were often 10% (10 mites per 100 bees or more), but today a lot of those recommendations are now at 1%.   Even with treatments at these lower thresholds colonies are still dying with high virus levels.  If anyone has actually sent samples to the USDA-ARS for testing I'd be interested in hearing what they reported back to you.  Everyone is thinking it, but afraid to say it, that interstate transport of colonies, including packages and nucs, is spreading these viruses.  

When the mite treatments stop "working", that is when more people will become open to alternatives such as the rapid expansion model that you use Greg.   So, I'm asking the members of this club, particularly those who have kept bees for more than 3 years, and particularly those who have kept 30 or more hives, are the mite treatments working for you?  If so, what approach are you using?  If not, what do you plan to try next?  

Non-treatment options can be a topic for another day.

Joe


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trex raptor

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Nov 13, 2019, 3:01:37 PM11/13/19
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I would think that you should reach out to the commercial honey producers if you want the data. Talk with Andy Hemken, he buys a fair amount of packages each year (around 200+) to replace his losses. He averages a 50% success rate.

In the range of 30-100 colonies, a few names that come to mind are Ethan Hogan in north east WI, Fred Ransome in east central WI, Adrian Quiney in north west WI or myself in south east WI. Overwinter success ranges from 60-95% for all of us. I know the names I listed aren't specifically part of your club, but this should provide you with at least some type of baseline.

I really think that when you manage the whole process from beginning to end in a continuous loop, things become easier. When you continuously bring in packages and nucs into your yard from large scale producers that are bringing bees back from the almonds, bio security becomes a larger issue and you never really win. Focus on sourcing nucs within the club from folks that need to prevent swarming anyway and then learn how to manage the process in a way that works for you. You don't need to have 30+ colonies to start selling a few nucs, you just need more bees than you want in your yard.
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Joseph Bessetti

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Nov 13, 2019, 4:11:30 PM11/13/19
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Thanks for the suggestions.   I believe these kind of data are important to be aware of so that beekeepers set appropriate expectations for losses even when they follow technically sound recommendations for treatment.  

We've bounced around ideas for some sort of Club-wide exchange of bees, often facilitated by the setup and shared use of one or more common yards, but the discussion always breaks down for one reason or another.  ironically enough, it's often around mite management/treatment, the very factor that such a project is meant to help with.  Usually I'm left with the sense that people in the club just aren't that interested, or that the people who are interested are spread out too far across the county to make it work.    

A small group of us has discussed this in more detail in the past year, with the intent of selecting, raising and distributing mite-resistant stock, but we've all been too busy doing our own thing to accomplish much else yet.   Anyone who wants to get involved is encouraged to reach out to me, Scott Johnson, or Paul Zelinski.  We have a couple plans in the works either in Fitchburg or Edgerton, and I'm looking for more connections in the Cottage Grove area too.   If anyone really likes doing mite counts, boy do we have a *job* for you!

Joe



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Capital Bee Supply Madison

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Nov 13, 2019, 9:22:38 PM11/13/19
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With the sugar roll a lot depends on the technique and that takes practice to learn. I've run hundreds of sugar rolls and alcohol washes and the results for the same sample of bees will match (run sugar roll, then wash the same bees and see if more mites dislodge in the wash...that is how one refines their technique with the sugar roll....but not too many want to put in the practice it takes so the alcohol wash is preferred as it takes less skill). A bigger issues I've seen is that if you take one sample of bees from a hive and run your favorite mite count method, the result is not necessarily representative of the count in the hive. For a trial, take three samples of nurse bees out of the brood area on 10-20 hives, run alcohol wash on each and look at the results. Frequently you'll see substantial variability in the counts from the three samples from a hive...so a single sample roll, whether alcohol or sugar, is not the best indicator of mite load...3 sample roll at least we are getting toward some semblance of statistical significance, 5 sample roll for a hive probably better yet....but not too many people would bother doing that....so they roll a single sample and make a judgement about what to do based on that single sample which may or may not reflect the true circumstances...

Paul Zelenski

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Nov 13, 2019, 9:34:02 PM11/13/19
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Lots of fun discussion here that I’ve missed. I’ll try not to write a novel trying to involve myself now.

 

But, Sorry Diane! Sorry to hear that your bees perished and so early. Also interesting that it seemed to happen so quickly. I wasn’t entirely clear on the timing, but any chance the mite treatment damaged your queen and the last large hatches you saw were kind of the last from before she was damaged?

 

Jimmer, I’m so glad to hear your bees are doing well, I hope that continues through winter.

 

Rich, in your model, you listed the efficacy of the formic at 50% but of the thymol as 95%. I was under the impression that formic was at least as effective as thymol. If not, I’m regretting my choice to switch treatments to try to avoid the robbing I think the thymol induced. I can manage the robbing if it’s that much better a treatment.

 

More generally, I do think there is a lot going on that we don’t know much about. Joe points out the different diseases that the mites bring. I’m starting to think that this is the real problem and I’m not sure that treatments will ever bring the mite numbers low enough to stop these. This is one of the reasons I have been so opposed to the travelling bees, that quickly spread everything throughout the country.

 

As for winter survival on the ‘treadmill,’ I have been keeping bees for almost 10 years now. I have had very good overwintering success with a single thymol treatment in the fall until very recently. The last two years have been poor for me. This has also corresponded with when I expanded from 20ish hives to over a hundred. I attributed my extra losses to more hands-off management and over-splitting combined with poor weather both of the last years. This year, I did a bit better, although fell a bit flat in my final feeding and prep. But, I split significantly less and my hives were much stronger (and more productive) that the last 2 years. We’ll see if this makes a difference in my survival. The other factor that is different is that I haven’t been expanding as aggressively. The last two years I finally had ‘enough’ drawn comb that I didn’t require the bees to draw as much. But, of course this means the bees were getting used comb instead of the new comb they were forced to build all those years I was expanding. This could also be a factor. Or, in an effort to expand quickly a couple years back, I got some packages, which I hadn’t done since I first started. Maybe they brought diseases. Or maybe I had been lucky to accidentally get superior genetics and these packages watered them down.

 

Anyway, the last couple years means I can no longer take survival for granted like I used to. I intend to slow-down, keep fewer bees and be more purposeful in my actions. I want to understand which of the factors are actually important to different outcomes. I want to control who my queens are mating with in an attempt to actually make progress genetically. I’m excited to work with Joe on our breeding projects where we have a plan that I think could actually work in creating a couple controlled breeding yards.

 

The other difficulty in finding large scale beekeepers to get data from, is that the majority of large scale keepers send their bees to CA, which isn’t particularly relevant to those of use who stay home.

 

 

 

: Joseph Bessetti
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 2:44 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com


Subject: Re: [madbees] Hive autopsy, 2019 edition

 

Yes, that is an option, but it's very different from what I'm asking right now.   I'm interested in learning how the treatment treadmill is actually working for people locally.  For most beekeepers, that is the only thing they know.  Until someone starts teaching/mentoring something else on a broader scale to this audience/club it's likely to stay that way.   

 

I'm particularly interested in hive losses the last few winters because I've known of some people to be hard hit.  There is at least one new virus that was rare up until about 5 years ago (VDV1) but is now being found in nearly every sample tested by the USDA ARS.  There is also a bacteria (SS1) that has been researched at UW Stout that seems to be getting more attention, but not nearly as much as the virus research.   The mites themselves have not changed, but the payload they carry seems to be getting nastier and nastier.  20 years ago mite thresholds for treatment were often 10% (10 mites per 100 bees or more), but today a lot of those recommendations are now at 1%.   Even with treatments at these lower thresholds colonies are still dying with high virus levels.  If anyone has actually sent samples to the USDA-ARS for testing I'd be interested in hearing what they reported back to you.  Everyone is thinking it, but afraid to say it, that interstate transport of colonies, including packages and nucs, is spreading these viruses.  

 

When the mite treatments stop "working", that is when more people will become open to alternatives such as the rapid expansion model that you use Greg.   So, I'm asking the members of this club, particularly those who have kept bees for more than 3 years, and particularly those who have kept 30 or more hives, are the mite treatments working for you?  If so, what approach are you using?  If not, what do you plan to try next?  

 

Non-treatment options can be a topic for another day.

 

Joe

 

 

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 9:55 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [madbees] Hive autopsy, 2019 edition

 

I'd say instead of staying on the mite-treating treadmil - leverage the normal and natural trait of the bees - fecundity.

Learn and practice your own propagation - now that is a good treadmill to stay on (regardless of the pests, infections, and the climate change - forget after chasing these - they will always be ahead of you).

An example, this year  from single over-wintered queen (a good speciment, to be sure) I was able to expand to to 7 viable units - just for this one line.

Surely, some of these will drop off over the winter (no treatment regiment can be harsh).

But at the moment, I still have more bees than I can would like to have.

 

Back to Joe's comment - you winter a single colony (somehow) - from that point on really no reason to not be sustainable.

I do think getting 2-3 good queens at the very onset (from a reliable, treatment free source) is a very good idea.

Worked for me so far.

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 9:19 AM Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I like the reply Marvin, but there's a problem:  How is a person going to split in late spring when they can't reliably get bees to survive through winter?  

 

The counting and the treating are supposed to keep the bees "healthy" and enable them to survive through winter.  If that worked as advertised, then there would be lots of winter survivors to split in the spring and you'd all be swimming in extra splits every June.  There are beekeepers here and there who seem to make the treatment treadmill work, but the numbers coming back from the BIP surveys don't seem to support the efficacy of the approach broadly.   Maybe it's too technically challenging and time-demanding for the average beekeeper?

 

This club used to have a handful of very vocal beekeepers who manage a substantial number of hives and reported good survival rates each year.  I have a sense that the last few years or so have been a bit more challenging?  Anyone out there keeping more than thirty hives and consistently having 75% or better winter survival for the last 3 years or more?  If so, what have you been doing, and what do you believe the keys to success are?  

 

Rich, I believe that you have more than thirty hives?  Since you recommended Randy Oliver's model, do you care to share your winter survival stats for the last 3 years and tell us what you have done to manage mites?

 

Joe

 

marvin

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Nov 14, 2019, 1:46:42 PM11/14/19
to madbees
I've been keeping bees for 16 years, and once I sort of figured things out I was overwintering at around 70%, giver or take....until the last two years.  But lets face it, those two years were outliers as far as weather goes.  While there may be new viruses etc., emerging, I'm not really ready to throw out the game plan based on the last 2 years.  The strategy I follow works, under normal environmental conditions.  Of course, normal may not exist anymore.  But what I focus on is 1) brood break and raising your own queen replacements, 2) non-invasive monitoring of mite levels 3) single fall mite treatment 4) robbing prevention.  5) ruthless culling of bad hives.  That last one is the hardest, especially if you're running only a few hives, but it may be the most important.  I don't think what I do is controversial or ground breaking.  It is relatively non-disruptive, which may be more important than we think.  

Greg V

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Nov 14, 2019, 1:53:23 PM11/14/19
to mad...@googlegroups.com
So what is the % for the last winter, Marvin?

For me - 30% (not bad, being a harsh-bond non-treater that I am AND the record winter factor).
It is a no secret number.

marvin

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Nov 14, 2019, 3:15:09 PM11/14/19
to madbees
50% the last two winters.  Curiously, my coldest yard last winter did the best.  


Greg V

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Nov 14, 2019, 3:55:33 PM11/14/19
to mad...@googlegroups.com
Not bad; enough to rebuild.

I actually lost a couple of units due to my own, avoidable mistakes (really should have had better #s).



On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 2:15 PM marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:
50% the last two winters.  Curiously, my coldest yard last winter did the best.  


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marvin

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Nov 14, 2019, 7:49:33 PM11/14/19
to madbees
Ya, we all have those "what if" hives.  I had one three year old hive this year that was full of bees and had beautiful brood patterns, but I didn't like the mite load in the drone cells.   I knew it was time to turn that queen over and give them a break..  But I never could find her.  It's isolated from my other hives, so I didn't cull it.  But I don't like leaving mite bombs ticking.  I may regret that one.


Paul Zelenski

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Nov 14, 2019, 8:02:10 PM11/14/19
to mad...@googlegroups.com
While I hate to hear about other people having troubles with their bees, it does help to hear that other peop,e also had double the last two years. Maybe my techniques do work and it was just an outlier. 

One of my yards had 7 out of 8 survive and those are hives that are on an exposed hill. Interestingly, they got completely buried in snow except the top of the front of the hive. I think the snow actually helped insulate them and block the brutal winds that came after the snow. I should probably go back to windbreaks, but hard with so many hives. 

On Nov 14, 2019, at 2:15 PM, marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

50% the last two winters.  Curiously, my coldest yard last winter did the best.  


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marvin

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Nov 14, 2019, 9:26:48 PM11/14/19
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Ya, windbreaks are underappreciated.  I've got hives up high on a sunny location, but wind exposed.  And then I have hives down in a dark bottom that's cold, but has better wind protection.  Those seem to overwinter the best.  I just need to bite the bullet, drive the T-posts and put up the snow fence.  


Diane Packett

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Nov 14, 2019, 9:42:20 PM11/14/19
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Paul, I agree, I appreciate it when people post about their losses and mistakes. Up until about now I assumed people must be doing great, to give advice so confidently (to say no more). And to your earlier post, next year I'm using Thymol. :-)

Paul Zelenski

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Nov 14, 2019, 9:54:09 PM11/14/19
to mad...@googlegroups.com
Yeah, I used to do that and wrap my hives in roofing felt. Then I stopped the windbreaks and they loved, then I stopped wrapping and they lived, so I figured it was unneeded. But, maybe it’s the difference in the cold windy years. 

On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:26 PM, marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ya, windbreaks are underappreciated.  I've got hives up high on a sunny location, but wind exposed.  And then I have hives down in a dark bottom that's cold, but has better wind protection.  Those seem to overwinter the best.  I just need to bite the bullet, drive the T-posts and put up the snow fence.  


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Capital Bee Supply Madison

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Nov 26, 2019, 7:39:54 PM11/26/19
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The efficacy of a 1/2 dose of formic is 50%....full dose is around 95-97% generally

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