Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

[Greg V]

Anyone has a handle on the full PDF of this article?
I don't feel like spending $40 for the original manuscript and did not find a free download yet.

Abstract:

In the absence of human intervention, the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) usually constructs its nest in a tree within a tall, narrow, thick-walled cavity high above the ground (the enclosure); however, most research and apiculture is conducted in the thin-walled, squat wooden enclosures we know as hives. This experimental research, using various hives and thermal models of trees, has found that the heat transfer rate is approximately four to seven times greater in the hives in common use, compared to a typical tree enclosure in winter configuration. This gives a ratio of colony mass to lumped enclosure thermal conductance (MCR) of less than 0.8 kgW−1 K for wooden hives and greater than 5 kgW−1 K for tree enclosures. This result for tree enclosures implies higher levels of humidity in the nest, increased survival of smaller colonies and lower Varroa destructor breeding success. Many honeybee behaviours previously thought to be intrinsic may only be a coping mechanism for human intervention; for example, at an MCR of above 2 kgW−1 K, clustering in a tree enclosure may be an optional, rare, heat conservation behaviour for established colonies, rather than the compulsory, frequent, life-saving behaviour that is in the hives in common use. The implied improved survival in hives with thermal properties of tree nests may help to solve some of the problems honeybees are currently facing in apiculture.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 015-1057-z

[Matt H]

Available at the UW library.

https://search.library.wisc.edu/catalog/9910366945202121

[Greg V]

Already searched UW while ago (especially since I have an account).

Was not able to find it.
Looks like they don't have this item:
(International Journal of Biometeorology, May 2016, Volume 60, Issue 5, pp 629–638)

[harold steinberg]

UW changed how you access journals. If you work at the UW, or have some access through the UW, you now have to use a special link to search articles off campus… <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?otool=uwisclib> Just set a bookmark to it and use it from home, if you are on campus (using a campus IP) then you will already have access without this special link.

Then you go to PubMed and find your article, then you click on the “FindIt” link over on the right side of the web page. For this article that would be at Springer. I’ve attached it.

[Greg V]

Thanks for the explanation!
I just knew I was missing out on something here.
(the PDF is a very useful read)

[Greg V]

Just a follow up ..
I tested this download link idea - I don't see it working outside of the campus.

Pretty sure the IP detection defeats the free download outside of UW system.

So need to have the IP originating from the UW system - temp guest NetID to use the free UW Wi-Fi should work, I would think.

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[harold steinberg]

You might have sped through the first sentence I wrote, "If you work at the UW, or have some access through the UW,…“ You do have to log in with your UW ID to access many of the articles.

If you are on campus (and again have access) you will be using eduroam (WIFI) and eduroam knows who you are already, so no log in required. Free public WIFI doesn’t exist on most of the UW campus, you need a UW ID for the WIFI too. There are a few buildings where they have a separate free wifi but it’s not the official UW one.

Many of these journal articles cost money to download the first year that they are out. After the first year they are “supposed” to become free to the public. Because most of these journal articles are funded by your tax dollars! and yes, many of us continue to argue that they should be free to access from day one. PLOS articles are always free, as are a number of other journal articles.

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[Greg V]

Well, I am different from either case you listed.. Hence the issue.
Keep in mind there are other ways to have UW library access and yet have not affiliation with the UW (no UW ID, that is).
Anyway, moving along. Thanks for the help!

[Hannu Andersson]

This article is about the same issue, but less theoretical. I found it worth reading.

http://www.beeculture.com/winter-management/

[Joseph Bessetti]

Practically everything we "know" about honey bees in winter is based on the artificial conditions created in a Langstroth hive.  That is worth reflecting on, especially given all of the challenges honey bees face currently.

Joe

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[William Palmer]

There was a UW Extension Bulletin  about wintering bees in Wisconsin. It was done by Pro. Walter Goemereck in the 50s.  It may be still available in the UW archives. Long out of print. I had a copy but it is hiding now.  Good Luck.

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[capitalb...@gmail.com]

Are you thinking of the Thermology of Wintering Honeybee Colonies paper? That can be recovered from BeeSource.com or through Google.

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 8:13:41 PM UTC-5, William Palmer wrote:

There was a UW Extension Bulletin  about wintering bees in Wisconsin. It was done by Pro. Walter Goemereck in the 50s.  It may be still available in the UW archives. Long out of print. I had a copy but it is hiding now.  Good Luck.

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Practically everything we "know" about honey bees in winter is based on the artificial conditions created in a Langstroth hive.  That is worth reflecting on, especially given all of the challenges honey bees face currently.

Joe

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-------- Original message --------

From: Hannu Andersson <ha...@communitymidwives.info>

Date: 11/4/17 13:17 (GMT-06:00)

To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [madbees] Re: Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

This article is about the same issue, but less theoretical. I found it worth reading.

http://www.beeculture.com/winter-management/

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[BETSY TRUE]

This article has impressed me.

I think we need to re-examine our Langstroth design.

On Nov 4, 2017, at 1:17 PM, Hannu Andersson <ha...@communitymidwives.info> wrote:

This article is about the same issue, but less theoretical. I found it worth reading.

http://www.beeculture.com/winter-management/

[Joseph Bessetti]

I agree.  A lot of good thought-provoking information in these pieces.

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of BETSY TRUE <bt...@wisc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 9:32 AM
To: Madbees
Subject: Re: [madbees] Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

 

[Scott Johnson]

Apropos of reexamining the beehive design: Anastasia Hives are basically big logs fit out for a colony (e.g., http://chopwoodcarrywaterplantseeds.blogspot.com/2012/09/anastasia-beehive.html). Looks like non-removable comb, though, so it'd be a no-no here.

========================================
Scott Johnson Ph.D.

Director
Low Technology Institute

========================================

2017-11-08 11:19 GMT-06:00 Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com>:

I agree.  A lot of good thought-provoking information in these pieces.

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of BETSY TRUE <bt...@wisc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 9:32 AM
To: Madbees
Subject: Re: [madbees] Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

 

This article has impressed me.

I think we need to re-examine our Langstroth design.

On Nov 4, 2017, at 1:17 PM, Hannu Andersson <ha...@communitymidwives.info> wrote:

This article is about the same issue, but less theoretical. I found it worth reading.

http://www.beeculture.com/winter-management/

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[Greg V]

The Lang/Dadant industrial hives' problem did not exist until about 100 years ago.
Of course, this fact is largely ignored today. :-)

Attached (one of these hives is mine).

[Brad Keevil]

I don't know that internal workings of a Langstroth hive are the problem. It seems that the issue which had been discussed around winter wrapping is more important that some of us have been lead to believe, so effective insulating under to top cover and wrapping seem to be a good idea. However, winter wraps (bee cozy's) and winter top covers usually get taken off in the spring. The real engineering would come in if you are trying to build in the thermodynamics of a log as a part of the hive for year round.

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 4:00:10 PM UTC-5, Greg V wrote:

[Matt H]

Issues:

-Tested only a single British standard that likely had a bunch of gaps that were not propolized up (they state they only sealed up the top with tape)

-Used undrawn frames (comb is basically a bubblewrap like insulator) 

-There was no honey present (a giant heat sink).

-Their models had entirely different volumes (their tree model was 2x the BS model)

A better test would've been to use similar volumes, drawn comb, with honey present (could be simulated).

I just don't buy this you have to heat the hive theory. My hives have open screened bottom boards, open entrances, and 1-3 holes drilled into the boxes.  What they lack is drafts.  The hives sit on upturned cinder blocks so drafts can't come up the screened bottom board and are protected from strong winds via strategically placed wind breaks.  My chickens live in a similar environment.  They are protected from wind but their coop is not insulated at all.  

[Scott Johnson]

One interesting aspect of bees living in a tree cavity is that the surrounding wood would absorb a ton of moisture and be much thicker than Langstroth hive walls. This would probably give the bees warmer, drier conditions than they experience in our hives, although it was pointed out by someone last night that bees can pretty much survive fully exposed to winter weather. I guess the easier they have it faster they can build up in the spring.

========================================
Scott Johnson Ph.D.

Director
Low Technology Institute

========================================

[BETSY TRUE]

Just because they CAN survive doesn’t mean that it’s the best option. I don’t advocate heating hives but think slowing the rate of heat loss might be closer to what they need to be able to keep a looser cluster.

Just because I can last the night in a tent in January doesn’t mean I won’t pay a price in not being willing to get out to take a leak.

Get Outlook for iOS

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Scott Johnson <sajjo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:26:16 PM
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Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

 

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[H. Adam Steinberg]

Disclaimer… I don't have time to read the article... did they, or someone else do research showing that honeybees live longer, or better when they nest in a tree cavity? One can coax a honeybee colony along for many years in a lang if they manage them properly, change out the queens every three years. How many years does a honeybee colony successfully live in a tree cavity in Wisconsin? Wouldn’t one want to know that before trying to replicate keeping honeybees in a man-made “tree” cavity?

[Joseph Bessetti]

I think you've totally missed the point.    You might try to read the article so that your response might be relevant.

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of H. Adam Steinberg <h.adam.s...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 9:02 PM

[Joseph Bessetti]

I'm not so sure about the wood absorbing a ton of moisture.  I'm also not so sure about the moisture being a serious problem if it's not absorbed.  The bees' covering everything with a layer of propolis is a significant consideration as well.     That layer of propolis is likely to change how moisture does or does not get absorbed.  The insulating qualities of the cavity itself changes the rate at which that moisture even has an opportunity to condense, so this obsession that most beekeepers have with "moisture control" may well be irrelevant in a natural cavity.  That is where the real question lies I think. 

We know that moisture is a serious problem in Langstroth hives because of the lack of insulation, the stark contrast between the temperature outside and the temperature of the cluster, and the release of moisture from the cluster due to respiration.  When you insulate the cavity the temperature differential between the cluster and the walls of the cavity is decreased, so condensation is significantly reduced or eliminated.  Water that doesn't condense doesn't need to be absorbed at all, so whether the wood absorbs moisture or not becomes irrelevant. 

Joe

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Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:26 PM

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Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Insulated polystyrene hive bodies have been on the market for decades and are becoming more popular in the U.S.   I have friends testing them in Texas currently and raving about them.  Yes, insulation year-round absolutely provides benefits.

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Brad Keevil <bjke...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 6:08 PM
To: madbees
Subject: [madbees] Re: Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

 

Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and ... link.springer.com Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and ...

[Paul Zelenski]

I haven't read the article yet, but will get a chance soon, I hope. 

Personally, I think cold isn't the issue for the bees, but will refrain from commenting until I read the article. 

But, in terms of moisture, imo, Joe is correct that moisture isn't the big problem until it becomes condensation. It's also my opinion that if our hive tops were designed differently, condensation would be less of an issue. The flat tops with a hole in the center encourages condensation that drips directly in the center (onto the bees.) From my experience with dry sugar, I often see significant drip marks in the center of the sugar. If our hives tops encouraged the condensation to run down the sides, it would me much less harmful for the bees. Peaked or domed inner covers would likely help a ton. 

Or, I've been suggesting that Cap Bees should make shims that are not level so the inner cover slants and encourages condensation to run to the front/back of the hive. This year I'll be building a bunch of my own rims, maybe I'll see if there is any reasonable way to build them that way without too much work. Maybe I can build them double thick and cut them in half at an angle. I'd also love to see bottom boards with an angled bottom when set on a level surface so I don't have to tip the entire hive to keep the water from pooling in the bottom of the hive, but that's a different topic. 

[marvin]

I think it's a common recommendation that all hives are situated on a downhill lie so water runs out the front of the hive.  So you shouldn't have to cut shims at angles to solve the moisture problem.  But with adequate ventilation the dripping problem should be non-existent.  So if you see signs of condensation, then the solution is to open things up more.  It's one of those things you have play with.  I've found that a wine-cork sized hole on each box is adequate.  I think people worry too much that their bees will be cold with extra-ventilation.  The reality is they'll never be happier. 

[Greg V]

Over-ventilation costs money... eh, honey.

I have to say, beekeepers in US spend tons of honey to winter the bees (well, cheap sugar usually; but still).

Per what I observe, beekeepers in much colder regions outside of US spend much less honey to winter their bees (USDA zone 2; 6 months of no flight time, to compare)

They would never harvest any honey if they wintered in such wasteful ways.

Equipment differences matter.

While less important here, more efficient equipment means means less honey needed to winter; significantly less, like 50% less even.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:31 PM, marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

.......  I think people worry too much that their bees will be cold with extra-ventilation.  The reality is they'll never be happier. 

[Paul Zelenski]

Yes, but it is annoying to have to prop each hive to make the bottom board slope when you have hives facing in alternating directions. Also, if you have your entire hive at an angle, in theory if you switch the way the combs are facing, the cells will be slightly off from tilted directly up. I'be never actually had a problem, but would prefer to have a perfectly level hive with a bottom board that slopes down. Of course I prefer screened bottom boards where it doesn't matter, but don't think they're a good idea for 5 frame hives.  I do intend to put ventilation holes in the Nuc bottom boards, but haven't gotten to it yet. 

As for ventilation, I have seen dripping into the sugar with fully open screened bottom boards and a 9/10" hole in every box. I agree that ventilation is more important than trying to keep the bees warm, but even with a lot of ventilation, a nice warm cluster is likely to cause some condensation when it's cold. I solve the problem with sugar, but am always thinking of fun new ideas. 

[marvin]

No Greg.  Dead bees cost money.  A lot of it.  Honey is cheap, and over produced.  Bees, on the other hand, are more expensive and of lower quality each year.  Do the math. 

[marvin]

I agree Paul.  It is a pain in the backside at some sites to level a hive.  But I've also seen hives with major ice jams at the bottom because gravity is playing in the wrong direction.  It's better to put the effort in when you site the hive, than when it's 5 stories high.

[Joseph Bessetti]

An overwintered colony that consumes 50 lbs of honey is equivalent an overwintered colony that consumes 100 lbs of honey, except for the additional 50 lbs of surplus honey and potentially a lot less effort feeding them.   Seems like pretty simple math to me. 

What beekeeper doesn't want more honey with less effort?  

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of marvin <marvin...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2017 9:19 PM
To: madbees
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

 

[Greg V]

You do not need to take the too much honey off.

But you will like excess honey left over spring.
It has many uses.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Personally, I think the suggestion of having sloped bottom boards is brilliant.  Level hives and the water always runs out, and hives can face in any direction on the same hive stand.  

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2017 8:39 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures

 

[Tim Aure]

Devan Rawn & UoG honeybee/Paul Kelly 

Are out of Ontario, Canada and I've found their sites very informative. Betsy also listed an Ontario site.

One is a university site and the other is a commercial bee keeper so their livelyhood is involved and they represent more than just a "hobby" perspective. Being from Canada, I believe they are more north of us. 🤔

Though I haven't yet, I plan to move my 8 hives closer to the south side of my house. It's more protected and the sun helps create a warmer 'oasis' in the extremes of our winter. For me there seems to be so many alternative hive designs that my head spins.

Personally. I like being able to get into a langstroth hive and being able to cull old comb. I'll also have my hives closer together, with Paul Z's way of sugar & pollen on top for emergency food and moisture absorption. He seems to have had good success & Joe's top entrances, probably 1" foam on the back to the ground and on  top and black tar paper on the front for absorbing winters sun. I also have the biltright inserts I rotate if they become too moisture laden.

Most of my hives have screened bottoms with a now installed insert.  I'm thinking of some heat tap a couple inches below the hives (they are on 10' 4x4's above concrete blocks) for sub zero days and I'll be close enough for easy monitoring and electric hook up. I understand the low 30's is ideal as far as shed storage. Each year is a new lesson. Wins and losses. It's an interesting and challenging hobby and we all get to play the hand dealt us. Bees are cavity dwellers for the most part. I'm sure not all the wild bees survive either. I have a saying concerning carpentry as there are a lot of 'sidewalk supervisors' out there. 'Everybody cooks stew different' . Wisconsin means winter in these next few months and I'm glad I'm not an Indian, 150 years ago in our Wis winters living 'naturally'. 

I've had this fall virus the last 12 days, been to the Dr. twice & am thankful for the meds (esp at night) as I tried to beat it on my own the first 7 days. The best rule is to treat others as one wants to be treated. We live in a fallen world,  It's no longer Eden, death eventually takes us all, we're all just trying to slow that eventual end. 😉

Sent from my iPhone

[Greg V]

OK, TGIF!

Here are very cool videos that suggest of the ecosystem that should exist in a good hive.
Those pseudo-scorpions are cute and hungry (and also susceptible to chem eradication, unfortunately).

https://chelifer.de/videos/

While at the site, check out the experimental hives with straw-filled pockets designed specifically for the "wild-live" to live in the hive too.

Heck, I now want to build a similar hive myself (with the straw-filled walls passable for bees).

My next project.

[Greg V]

BTW, I want to thank Scott Johnson for the reference to the Gotland bees project.
I was not aware of the project.

This is how I found this really cool site (including the book scorpion vids).

[Joseph Bessetti]

I have seen pseudo-scorpions in and on my hives several times.  

Another way that some beekeepers are trying to establish and support the hive ecosystem is with "eco-floors", which are basically a box of leaf litter, wood chips, or other "forest debris" (akin to the bottom of a natural tree cavity) at the bottom of a managed hive. 

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 9:23 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Derek Mitchell - Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures