Overwintering hives inside?

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oscarm...@gmail.com

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Oct 22, 2020, 2:03:27 PM10/22/20
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Has anyone tried overwintering bees inside a shed or some other special purpose enclosure? I'm debating trying to make individual screen cages for a few nucs to overwinter them in my attached garage. Temps in there stay around 40 degrees so they should stay in cluster but not experience the extreme temperature swings. I was thinking something with ~2 or so cubic feet of area in front of their entrances so they could still get out for small cleansing flights.

I know some of the commercial beeks overwinter in purpose build heated sheds, but with the amount of hives I have this wouldn't be feasible.

Any past experiences, insights or thoughts as to why this is a bad idea are appreciated!

Joseph Bessetti

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Oct 22, 2020, 2:38:05 PM10/22/20
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I have wintered up to 20 single-deep 12-frame colonies in a shed.  The space they are in is mostly insulated and air-tight to prevent drafts.  Each hive has a single 1" round entrance that is pushed up against the outside wall, where a matching hole is drilled through the insulation and outer wall.  This gives the bees access outside for cleansing flights and foraging on warm days.

People who winter in climate-controlled sheds keep the space totally dark; the bees are dormant the entire time and never go out for cleansing flights.  Because there is no light, then don't start raising brood, so cleansing flights aren't necessary.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that your plan to give them a small screened space for cleansing flights is going to work out.  The bees will try to orient and need more space to do so.  They'll recognize that they are trapped and may or may not cleanse.  You might be better off covering them up completely so that they never see the light of day; they can't be air-tight or they could suffocate.  Screening the entrance with hardware cloth and covering them with several layers of canvas tarp would probably keep it dark enough and air could still get in.

For just a few colonies, insulating them really well can be just as effective as moving them into a temperature-regulated space, and they would still have access to the outside on warm days.  You'd want insulation all around them and allow just a tiny entrance. 

Joe





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Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 1:03 PM
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Subject: [madbees] Overwintering hives inside?
 
Has anyone tried overwintering bees inside a shed or some other special purpose enclosure? I'm debating trying to make individual screen cages for a few nucs to overwinter them in my attached garage. Temps in there stay around 40 degrees so they should stay in cluster but not experience the extreme temperature swings. I was thinking something with ~2 or so cubic feet of area in front of their entrances so they could still get out for small cleansing flights.

I know some of the commercial beeks overwinter in purpose build heated sheds, but with the amount of hives I have this wouldn't be feasible.

Any past experiences, insights or thoughts as to why this is a bad idea are appreciated!

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larry lindokken

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Oct 22, 2020, 7:38:06 PM10/22/20
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Be sure to allow the carbon  dioxide  to dissipate.  Air needs to be available  and bees still die off ---watch some utube videos about this subject and good luck

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trex raptor

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Oct 29, 2020, 6:00:48 PM10/29/20
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Bees don't die from cold, they die from varroa/disease and starvation. Putting them inside won't affect the outcome if they are already sick or starving. I overwinter only 5 frame nucs,6 frame nucs and single deeps outside every season with no insulation or wrap besides the top. They survive with no issue when healthy and well fed. This year I'm overwintering 3 frame nucs as well so I can see what the size limit is for colony survival. If the survival is good, I'll try 2 or 1 frame nucs next season. 

-Trevor

Scott Johnson

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Oct 29, 2020, 6:59:45 PM10/29/20
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I agree with Trevor, to a point.
UW did a study in the 1950s with totally exposed hives surviving sub-zero temps in WI, so yes, they CAN survive in cold weather. However, the more energy they need to keep themselves warm, the more food they'll eat, so at some point, they could starve. Or it could get really cold: I lost an exposed hive in the -40 deg. F polar vortex two years ago that likely would have otherwise survived.
My bees live in a shed and this keeps them protected from wind, water, etc. They are probably a few degrees warmer, too. It is a marginal help to protect the bees, just like adding extra sugar, wrapping them, ventilation, etc. etc. etc. It is all marginal once they are strong, low on varroa, and stocked up on honey, but the margins can make a difference.

As with everything, I recommend doing a controlled trial. Keep half your hives inside and half outside. Make records on how strong each hive was and then compare survival over a few years to see if you can isolate the shed/no shed variable. No anecdotes! :-) We've already got those.

The commercial guys want to have their bees ready to go to California in Feb/Apr at full strength, so they warm them up or keep them warm in the winter to simulate that environment.

Scott


========================================
Scott Johnson Ph.D.
========================================


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Greg V

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Oct 29, 2020, 7:09:10 PM10/29/20
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Of course, the bees will die of the cold - it is ALL relative.
:-)

Lost very strong and healthy units during the Arctic snap (2-3 years ago?).
Because I got too complacent and was wintering in un-insulated plywood hives.
Guess what - the good clusters of bees just froze in place.
Literally.

So, I would not get TOO complacent in this regard.


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Paul Zelenski

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Oct 29, 2020, 10:02:12 PM10/29/20
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I agree. Bees are very good at keeping themselves warm if they are healthy, well-fed and DRY. Of course the colder it is the more stressful it is for them, and otherwise marginal hives might not be able to withstand the additional challenge. The research seems to indicate that about 40 degrees is the ‘ideal” temp for efficiency of stores. Any colder and they require more honey to stay warm; any warmer and they risk becoming active and also consume more honey. Because of this it’s presumed that it’s the ideal temp for overwintering and is likely the gentlest temp, leading to survival of the most marginal hives. 
Of course one downside of keeping your bees in a shed, is that thy can’t make cleansing flights. Personally, I would rather have my bees face some cold temps but also enjoy some cleansing flights when we get a few nice days. Having the best of both worlds like Joe sounds great.  

Of course there is also a lower limit to the size a cluster can be. As with anything the larger the mass, the smaller percentage that is on the exposed perimeter of the cluster. If you get too small there simply aren’t enough bees to keep themselves warm and fed if it gets cold or stays cold for too long. Taking it to extremes, it’s obvious a cluster of a hundred bees, for example, wouldn’t be viable. I expect you’ll find, Trever, that one and two frame hives won’t do well, but I’ve never tried anything smaller than 5 over 5; I shied away from it when I heard others fail with 5 frames. I’m interested to see what you find. I’m surprised with your success with 5 frame hives, since I’ve never heard others succeed without using heat tape or placing on top of full hives for shared warmth. Do you put them above full hives, or warm/insulate them in any way? I would think it would be hard to have enough stores in this configuration while also having room for a viable cluster.  I do agree that large clusters are not necessary, but they do provide a bit of extra leeway when Mother Nature brings her worst. 

Of course there is also the question of what you want your hives to look like in the spring. If you overwintered a colony that is filling 3 deeps, you will be able to split it into a dozen hives (if it survives). If you overwintered those same bees in six 5 frame nucs, you won’t be splitting each of them more than in half. I know Trever prefers the latter, because it’s not an all or nothing proposition. You’re not risking all your survival and splits on one queen. I can definitely see advantages to either method. 

Anyway, there are plenty of ways to keep bees and we’ve heard successes and failures of many different techniques. Please keep trying new things and report what you find. When possible try to be as precise in your observations as possible to help tease out what the important factors are. If possible, as Scott suggests, do side by side comparisons. While small sample size will mean it’s not a true experiment, it is the best we’re going to get.  

PS, as Scott points out the UW experiment shows (and there have been others with thermometers placed at different places in the hive) the bees do not heat the hive; they heat the cluster. This is why I don’t advocate insulation. In my opinion insulation is more damaging by restricting ventilation than it could ever help by insulating. 

Marcin Matelski

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Oct 29, 2020, 10:44:17 PM10/29/20
to 'carrie' via madbees
I remember reading an article ( can't recall if it was ABJ or BC ) by Dr. Joe Latshaw on his experiments of overwintering styrofoam mini mating nucs in Ohio. He's a queen breeder and this was part of his SARE grant work.
Also, Liz Huxton in Canada is a queen producer that winters her quad mating nucs outside as is with a box of food above them. She's got a video on vimeo about it. 

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Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Overwintering hives inside?

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trex raptor

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Oct 29, 2020, 10:47:03 PM10/29/20
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I don't do anything fancy or heat them. You are correct that a dry environment is key. This is why insulating the top of the box is the most important, no other side really matters. I stick to what my mentors taught me and have just built upon it. I have read about canadians being successful with stacking but it isn't needed here in WI. I say that not only as a beekeeper in SE WI but can attest to folks in the far NW WI that can overwinter 5 frame nucs successfully too. I just weigh them during the end of summer/fall and feed as needed. The art of it is building the colonies up to strength without causing them to swarm in a 3 frame or 5 frame box. Timing is key and that why I say winter prep starts in July not September. What may look like a lot of bees in a 5 frame nuc at 70 degrees ends up being 3 frames of bees on a 45 degree day. Tim was out in one of my yards last saturday during the overwintering class and can verify my technique.

When I say bees don't die of cold, a lot of it has to do with box size. Having the right size box makes a huge difference. 5-6 frames of bees will do a lot better in a single deep or 5x5 than a double deep. I believe that there is some truth to the idea that in the right size box, bee can heat the entire space to a workable level during the daylight hours. My healthy colonies have clean bottom boards in March when I do the first inspection, even though I never come in and scrape them all winter. Thermal regulation is easier to achieve when the bees have a home they can actual retain heat in.

-Trevor
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trex raptor

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Oct 29, 2020, 11:44:11 PM10/29/20
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Marcin - Do you have a link to the Liz Huxter video you referenced? I'm intrigued!
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Marcin Matelski

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Oct 29, 2020, 11:53:57 PM10/29/20
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From: trex raptor <trexb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020, 10:44 PM
To: madbees

Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Overwintering hives inside?
Marcin - Do you have a link to the Liz Huxter video you referenced? I'm intrigued!

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 9:44:17 PM UTC-5, Marcin wrote:
I remember reading an article ( can't recall if it was ABJ or BC ) by Dr. Joe Latshaw on his experiments of overwintering styrofoam mini mating nucs in Ohio. He's a queen breeder and this was part of his SARE grant work.
Also, Liz Huxton in Canada is a queen producer that winters her quad mating nucs outside as is with a box of food above them. She's got a video on vimeo about it. 

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