Splits

[David Kline]

I'm going to try the On the Spot splits this year and see how it goes. Was wondering if anyone else has tried this method, as well as, figure out when others in this area start splitting.

Thanks

[John Thompson]

Do you have a link as to what this means? I either get the banana splits show or regular hive splits when I search.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 6:24 AM David Kline <djkl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm going to try the On the Spot splits this year and see how it goes. Was wondering if anyone else has tried this method, as well as, figure out when others in this area start splitting.

Thanks

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[Tom Borchardt]

Try searching "on the spot queen rearing"

[walter kugler jr]

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 8:35:31 AM UTC-5, John Thompson wrote:

Do you have a link as to what this means? I either get the banana splits show or regular hive splits when I search.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 6:24 AM David Kline <djkl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm going to try the On the Spot splits this year and see how it goes. Was wondering if anyone else has tried this method, as well as, figure out when others in this area start splitting.

Thanks

--John, I think it's just another phrase/term for walk-away splits. >  http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/walkawaysplit.html

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[Matt H]

I presume he's referring to mel disselkoen's OTS "method"...which is just really splitting off the queen into a nuc with a few frames of bees (and notching out the bottom of egg/larva cells to promote queen rearing).

Call it what you like but splits like this are pretty common and often successful. Just keep an eye on the hive that doesn't have a queen and until you see a new queen periodically (every 2 or 3 weeks) add a frame of eggs to it.

[Greg V]

Main point of the OTS split is really - making a late June/early July split that produces so-called "summer solstice queens".

This way the brood-less period is strategically timed at mid-summer.

The "July starts" (as Mel D. calls them) typically over-winter well without mite treatments according to the OTS method author.

So however you call them - try for July 4th splitting (+/- a week) and should get a similar outcome.

I have done them and will do so again.

Of course, the OTS should be factored into your general plan so to still have some harvest for your self (whatever your harvest goals are).

Here is the main site with lots of materials - http://www.mdasplitter.com/.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:49 AM Matt H <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

I presume he's referring to mel disselkoen's OTS "method"...which is just really splitting off the queen into a nuc with a few frames of bees (and notching out the bottom of egg/larva cells to promote queen rearing).

Call it what you like but splits like this are pretty common and often successful. Just keep an eye on the hive that doesn't have a queen and until you see a new queen periodically (every 2 or 3 weeks) add a frame of eggs to it.

[Scott Johnson]

Here is how I split my hives:

https://lowtechinstitute.org/2018/05/23/bee-report-splitting-hives-and-raising-queens-part-i/

https://lowtechinstitute.org/2018/05/29/bee-report-splitting-hives-and-raising-queens-part-ii/

Great skill to have for a self-sustaining yard. If anyone wants to come out, I'll let you know when I split this spring.

Good luck!

Scott

==========================
Excuse brevity.
Sent by clacks.
S. A. J. Johnson
==========================

[Matt H]

Perhaps he's changed his tune but in a nutshell here's the method.  It requires a lot of manipulations.  

www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf

It starts May 5th (so spring not summer).  I would not split as heavily as he does in this PDF in July unless you're prepared to feed heavily all summer long.  Perhaps in other area's this works well, but after July the flow is basically done and in 5 years I've only seen 1 decent fall flow where they put any weight on the hives.

~Matt

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[Greg V]

He did not change his tune.

But I do not see a need to follow the method to the letter either.

For example, I have a weak hive out of the winter right now that is not fit for splitting in early May.

However, they will be perfect material for late June/early July starts.

So, no need to follow the OTS to the letter as defined.

In my location, entire July has a very good flow.

A non-issue here.

[John Thompson]

You put supers on top of your long Lang's?

[Paul Zelenski]

Again, this is all examples of how to mange your hives for different purposes. He is managing to get as many bees as possible and even said he feeds them to get that many. Take the pieces and techniques that fit your goals and discard the rest. 

I have also found it unnecessary to notch the comb unless you have old dark comb. The bees can chew put the side of the ones they like in newish comb. 

As for splitting, I checked my hives last week and they had eggs just hatching in the drone cells.  So, I’ll be splitting first week of May so those drones will be ready in time. You could probably split earlier since the packages people purchased probably have enough drones to successfully mate a couple queens. But, I want my overwintered genetics and will be mating more than the occasional queen.  

[Greg V]

+1 about that "notching" thing as unnecessary (unless have a hard, old comb on a plastic base, maybe).

I tried it and bees just ignored my "notches" and had other ideas.

If running foundation-less, they can pretty much tunnel through any comb in any direction as they want.

I ditched that "notching" idea.

[marvin]

I think the importance of his approach isn't the notching per se, but the fact that that he notches one frame 2 or 3 times with a goal of generating multiple queen cells, and then SELECTING the two biggest and presumably, best.   Most people, when they split, select a frame with eggs and let the bees build queen cells, and then let the emergent queens cull out the opposition.  Many of us never go into the nuc box for 30 days to avoid disruptions and potential damage to the queen cells.  The number of queen cells is quite variable, and there's no control over the culling process.  What OTS does is gives you come control over queen cell size, which the author equates with superiority.  It also allows you to maybe avoid some mayhem if you end up with a dozen queen cells.  Its a line of logic with some validity.  What I always try to do when I use this approach is to give the box a little extra room so you're less likely to tear queen cells when you're manipulating frames.  But overall, its a pretty good approach and I've had a lot of success with it. 

[Matt H]

Yea, I question whether queen cell size is the best indicator of a quality queen. I'm no expert by any means but I've grafted/raised queens for 4 years and have seen similar success with runt queen cells as I have from big ones. I'm usually of the opinion that the bees know best.

What notching does do is if you have natural foundation you can cut out those cells and move them to other nucs. I've tried doing it with plastic foundation and had little success.

[Joseph Bessetti]

There are a lot of comments here on Mel Disselkoen's methods and while most are at least partially correct, no one has it completely right. 

If you really want to do this, I recommend buying and reading Mel's book.   If you just want to split some hives, you will do just as well with a basic walk-away or other approach.

"On The Spot" or OTS, is simply the technique of cutting the cell walls, which can be done any time of year that rearing queens is desired.  It is really not complicated or highly involved.  You remove the queen from a strong colony and "notch" young larva on 1 or more frames.  The notch is supposed to direct the bees in initiating queen cell formation, though a queenless colony will usually do this without the notches, and often the bees will put queen cells where they want them anyway.   If all you want is one new start, you check back on the colony 4 weeks later like you would any split.  If you want multiple new starts you revisit 1 week after notching to separate frames with newly capped queen cells into multiple new starts.  This is where notching has an advantage:  a hive might make all the queen cells on a single frame, but when it works, notching gives you multiple frames with cells.

Other aspect of Mel's methods, again best understood by reading his book, are far ranging. They include honey production by timing his methods to the local honey flow.  This does get more involved, but shouldn't be confused with the OTS part.  In one strategy you combine the workforce of multiple new starts to get a super colony that can run for honey.  In another strategy you split in May, then again in July, making lots of new starts that you can usually expect to have to feed all summer.   He talks about controlling mites via a brood break, which I'm personally skeptical about as a sole strategy for treatment-free success.  He also emphasizes the advantages of a young queen's brood rearing advantage in fall, which there is quite a bit literature to support.  One aspect of his book that I enjoyed is his review of some of the historical methods used for rearing queens and how it lead to development of his own strategies. 

Mel is an engaging and fun speaker to listen to as well, though he basically just preaches what works for him, filling in a lot of the reasons with what he believes rather than scientific foundation.  Oh wait, that is essentially what every beekeeper I've ever heard does...  That said, it's better to listen to than to argue against anyone else's success as we search for our own.

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of David Kline <djkl...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:24 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [madbees] Splits

 

I'm going to try the On the Spot splits this year and see how it goes. Was wondering if anyone else has tried this method, as well as, figure out when others in this area start splitting.

Thanks

[Scott Johnson]

Hi John,

I can put supers on my long langs but if you have access to an extractor that can do deeps, I'd just do that!

I notch but just mostly for fun and to try to get them to pull queens on multiple frames for easy splitting later.

Scott

========================================
Scott Johnson Ph.D.

Director
Low Technology Institute

========================================

[Sandy Kintner]

Scott

If you haven't all ready and the timing worked out I'l love to observe your split. I am four year beekeeper with a single hive but have had pretty good luck surviving winters. My hive is very strong right now, so if I am ever going to split now's the time. Let me know your plans and is they mesh with my schedule I'll drop by.

Thanks

Sandy Kintner

[Scott Johnson]

Hi Sandy,

Sure! I'll let folks know via MadBees when I split. I'll have a look in my hives here this week and see who's getting close.

Scott

========================================
Scott Johnson Ph.D.

Director
Low Technology Institute

========================================

[Paul Zelenski]

I was going through my hives this week with intentions of splitting next week, but things are going slow again this spring. There are some drones coming along, but not as quickly as I thought. There definitely aren’t really any  emerged drones in the overwintered hives, only those that came in on packages. Of course looks like snow this weekend to further retard development; and just when I thought I thought spring was here in earnest and I was beginning to see signs of dandelions. Next week also looks like cold and rainy, so I think best case scenario is going to be making splits next weekend or the following week. Of course, if you’re just making splits for yourself, there doesn’t need to be a hurry. I am always trying to push things as early as possible since I sell nucs with locally raised queens and everybody is always anxious to get their bees when the weather starts looking nice.

[Sandy Kintner]

Sounds good. I had put queen excluder between my boxes with the the hope of identifying who had the queen. Now, I think I’ll pull it out tomorrow and wait a week

Sandy

[Paul Zelenski]

Looks like this weekend is the only window of nice weather for another week. I’m going to try to get my splits made this weekend. Seems like a pretty reasonable time. Just be careful to give them splits plenty of nurse bees to cover any brood that you give them, as it is going to cool down again the following week.

Again, if I weren’t trying to provide local nucs to people starting new hives, I might wait another week or two. Making larger splits anytime in May is fine too.

 

From: Sandy Kintner
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 5:16 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Splits

 

Sounds good. I had put queen excluder between my boxes with the the hope of identifying who had the queen. Now, I think I’ll pull it out tomorrow and wait a week