Thermal treatments for mites

[Curtis Ryals]

I haven't been able to find good information on chemical mite treatments for a top bar hive. Last year, my mite counts were fairly low, but I did have them, and lost the hive. Everything I've read says that you should only do treatments in the brood chamber of a langsroth hive, and you should remove the honey supers to do so.  But a top bar hive does not have supers to remove, so I have been hesitant to use chemicals in the hive, even if, like formic acid, they are volatile and have a short half life.  Looking into thermal treatments, it seems heating to 104 degrees F, kills the mites but spares the bees. There is limited research on this however, and there is evidence that the heat stresses the bees, harms the brood, reduces drone fertility, and can damage the queen.  Other studies have suggested that the bees do just fine and have the same rate of reproduction as non-heated hives. I don't want to get into the chemical/no chemical debate, I'm just wondering if more experienced beekeepers have used thermal treatments, what your experience was, or if its a non-starter.  I'm thinking that if it were such a great thing, everybody would be doing it. 

[marvin]

While bees can control hive temp quite well, there are plenty of locations where 104 degrees (and above) are a common and prolonged daytime temperature.  So you have to wonder why hives in these hot regions still have mites.  

[cdr...@gmail.com]

I wondered that as well. Even in WI I would guess that on some days the hive gets that hot, though I’ve never measured. Also the heat isn’t supposed to kill every mite, just reduce loads, and you repeat frequently per mite life cycle/load. 

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On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:02 AM, marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:



While bees can control hive temp quite well, there are plenty of locations where 104 degrees (and above) are a common and prolonged daytime temperature.  So you have to wonder why hives in these hot regions still have mites.  

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Hello Curtis,
Now that OA has been approved for use whilst honey supers are on, those of us with TBH's can think about including that in our IPM plans.  I am looking at picking up a fogger in the near future for treating my hives including my TBH.  I would be interested in any resources that people use for OA treatment with a fogger.  Carrie posted her recipe on another thread.
Cheers,
Jeff S.

[Joseph Bessetti]

Hot regions still have mites because the bees control the hive temperatures quite well and don't let internal hive temperatures get that high despite the outside temperature.  They haul lots of water for evaporative cooling.

These elevated temperatures can only be reached as a treatment if you temporarily prevent the bees from cooling the hive.

Joe

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[Paul Zelenski]

There are TBH forums out there and decent info on treating for mites in TBHs. There does seem to be a larger overlap in TF and TBH beekeepers, though. I guess the ‘naturalness’ of the two tend to appeal to the same type of people.

If you want to treat with chemicals, there are a few that are approved for use with honey supers, such as Formic and OA. If you want to use the ones not approved for honey supers, surely you are removing any harvestable honey in the fall anyway, right? Just because you don’t have a dedicated super or specific box for honey doesn’t mean that you don’t have brood combs and combs you harvest. In fact, don’t most people harvest freshly drawn comb using crush and strain, leaving older combs for the bees? It actually seems even safer to use these treatments in a TBH since you are almost never harvesting anything but fresh comb.

 

But, you asked about thermal treatments…

I’ve never tried it in any hive, tbh or lang. I did a bit of reading on it awhile back, but the logistics of trying to achieve those temps seems difficult. As Joe mentions, the bees will do everything they can to cool the hive. It seems exceedingly difficult to accomplish these temps without heating elements and such. I did see a special hive somewhere with heating elements in the frames to heat just the brood, but of course such a specialized hive isn’t going to translate to a TBH. Without a special built hive, being able to heat to 104 throughout the hive without exceeding that seems even more difficult. Especially difficult is accomplishing this in the cooler temps of fall when mite treatments are needed most.

Also, 104 is no joke for the bees. I hear some people have success without damaging the bees, but I find that hard to fully believe. In my experience any reduction in the bees ability to cool a hive leads to mass exodus, bearding, brood failure and even die off. So intentionally raising the temp like this is more risky that I am willing to try.

I also think that a TBH might be even riskier that a normal hive for this type of treatment. At those temps, the wax is going to start to get soft. I’ve seen pics of people’s hives in places like TX where the bees couldn’t keep them sufficiently cooled and the wax starts to give way and lead to failed comb and honey everywhere, and that is in frames. I feel like the risk of having the wax lose its structural integrity in a TBH and creating an enormous mess is just too high.

 

So, for me the hassle and risks just outweighs the benefit and I’ve never been willing to try it.

 

If you give it a shot, please report back and let us know how it works.

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[marvin]

The argument about bees and hive thermo-regulation are well established.  But you have to wonder if you're in say south Texas, Florida, etc in August with both high temps and high humidity whether even a dedicated group of bees can regulate temperature that well.  But then if even a small pocket of the hive remains below 104, you still have a mite problem.  I can't envision how you could heat treat a hive with confidence and get a balance between successful treatment and collateral damage.

[Joseph Bessetti]

The treatment process involves completely enclosing the hive for the treatment period.  The bees can't forage water, so they can't cool the hive.  The one factor that might impact this is if there is a lot of nectar in the hive that is being dried down.  That could impact the effectiveness of the treatment.

This isn't a hypothetical treatment.  People are using it effectively and successfully with langstroth hives.  I'm pretty sure there is a system that can be purchased.  From a dosage standpoint it is little different than treating with some chemicals.  Too high a dose of formic acid, for example, will kill bees too, usually noticed when the colony ends up queenless.

Joe

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-------- Original message --------

From: marvin <marvin...@gmail.com>

Date: 3/3/21 10:56 (GMT-06:00)

To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>

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[Greg V]

If one is serious enough about the thermo method (which I am not), an external, dedicated thermo-chamber needs to be used.

Like here; reported as effective (jump to 2:25)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxJsqXsC1TE

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[Paul Zelenski]

I will say this conversation has sparked my interest and I started looking into this a bit more. It does seem that there has been quite a bit of progress since I last checked in on it. While this may no longer be a hypothetical treatment, I would still consider it experimental. It seems to be in it’s infancy in terms of reliable, repeatable results. We’ve seen a lot of treatments show promise and then fall by the wayside.

 

There do seem to be a wide range of methods and products attempting to accomplish the thermal treatment. Some confine the bees, some heat the hive, but seem to allow the bees to beard rather than staying in the hives (which might be how the queens remain undamaged), some have solar windows to heat the hive. This wide range of methods is also probably clouding the discussion of effectiveness and collateral damage. Also, even with a substantial device, uniform heating of hives with different configuration seems to be challenging, which makes treatment methods and measurements of success more difficult.

 

This of course leads to my earlier comments about translating this to TBHs. It seems that the most effective methods use specific devices designed to reliably and uniformly heat langstroth hives. Even with these devices the difference between single and double deeps seems to be a substantial hurdle for results. As far as I know, there aren’t any devices designed for the TBHs and even if there were, the lack of uniformity in TBHs would make design of such devices challenging. The less a device is well-designed specifically for a hive, the more risk there is in collateral damage as well.

 

Joe makes a very good point, though, that as with any treatment, application and dosage is important to success and collateral damage. I do think there are definite hurdles to using this treatment effectively (especially on non-standard equipment) but there is enough promise to be intriguing if people have the time/energy.

 

Sorry if I’ve derailed this from someone asking for specific experiences and advice to a general discussion. But, I have become more intrigued and will probably continue to look into this more. I’d also be happy to hear from anyone that has experience rather than just pessimists like myself 😉

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[Lloyd St. Bees]

All,

Please see the attached PDF for this posting. It is a copy of the article in this month's ABJ by Randy Oliver that takes a scientific approach to the use of thermal treatments for varroa. I'll give you a spoiler, the temp required to effectively kill varroa boarders the temp to kill honey bees by 1-2 degrees C. To make matters worse, these temps will also cook the sperm in your queen and your drones. Most drones will kick the bucket too. Alison McAfee published a great article on "heat shocking" queens and analyzing the damage. She heated the chamber that held the queens to 42C for two hours. The queens survived, but she noticed significant queen failure afterwards. When you look at the temp to kill the mites, 43-46C for a minimum of three hours, you see that this would also severely damage your queens. Please see the link below for a copy of Alison's work on heat stress and queens.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/627729v4.full

In regards to overdosing our colonies with treatments, synthetic miticides like amitraz actually have the significantly lower chance of overdose compared to products using thymol or formic acid. I'm not a fan of any of these, but it does explain why commercial folks can put shop towels dipped in amitraz into colonies and they are "fine".

Thank you,

Trevor Bawden

Lloyd St. Bees

On Wednesday, March 3, 2021 at 1:48:42 PM UTC-6, Paul Zelenski wrote:

I will say this conversation has sparked my interest and I started looking into this a bit more. It does seem that there has been quite a bit of progress since I last checked in on it. While this may no longer be a hypothetical treatment, I would still consider it experimental. It seems to be in it’s infancy in terms of reliable, repeatable results. We’ve seen a lot of treatments show promise and then fall by the wayside.

 

There do seem to be a wide range of methods and products attempting to accomplish the thermal treatment. Some confine the bees, some heat the hive, but seem to allow the bees to beard rather than staying in the hives (which might be how the queens remain undamaged), some have solar windows to heat the hive. This wide range of methods is also probably clouding the discussion of effectiveness and collateral damage. Also, even with a substantial device, uniform heating of hives with different configuration seems to be challenging, which makes treatment methods and measurements of success more difficult.

 

This of course leads to my earlier comments about translating this to TBHs. It seems that the most effective methods use specific devices designed to reliably and uniformly heat langstroth hives. Even with these devices the difference between single and double deeps seems to be a substantial hurdle for results. As far as I know, there aren’t any devices designed for the TBHs and even if there were, the lack of uniformity in TBHs would make design of such devices challenging. The less a device is well-designed specifically for a hive, the more risk there is in collateral damage as well.

 

Joe makes a very good point, though, that as with any treatment, application and dosage is important to success and collateral damage. I do think there are definite hurdles to using this treatment effectively (especially on non-standard equipment) but there is enough promise to be intriguing if people have the time/energy.

 

Sorry if I’ve derailed this from someone asking for specific experiences and advice to a general discussion. But, I have become more intrigued and will probably continue to look into this more. I’d also be happy to hear from anyone that has experience rather than just pessimists like myself 😉

 

From: Joseph Bessetti
Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 12:18 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [madbees] Re: Thermal treatments for mites

 

The treatment process involves completely enclosing the hive for the treatment period.  The bees can't forage water, so they can't cool the hive.  The one factor that might impact this is if there is a lot of nectar in the hive that is being dried down.  That could impact the effectiveness of the treatment.

 

This isn't a hypothetical treatment.  People are using it effectively and successfully with langstroth hives.  I'm pretty sure there is a system that can be purchased.  From a dosage standpoint it is little different than treating with some chemicals.  Too high a dose of formic acid, for example, will kill bees too, usually noticed when the colony ends up queenless.

 

Joe

 

Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone

 

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: marvin <marvin...@gmail.com>

Date: 3/3/21 10:56 (GMT-06:00)

To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Thermal treatments for mites

 

The argument about bees and hive thermo-regulation are well established.  But you have to wonder if you're in say south Texas, Florida, etc in August with both high temps and high humidity whether even a dedicated group of bees can regulate temperature that well.  But then if even a small pocket of the hive remains below 104, you still have a mite problem.  I can't envision how you could heat treat a hive with confidence and get a balance between successful treatment and collateral damage.

 

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[cdr...@gmail.com]

Thank you for the pdf, that is precisely the type of information I was looking for. My read on it is not as dismal as yours however. I took it to mean heat treatment is quite effective, but humidity is an important factor, and you need to carefully monitor temperature to find the sweet spot (lest you have the effects you cited). Short hot treatments are better than cooler prolonged treatments. Thermostat controlled devices and convection are important. As with chemicals you need to find the proper dosing, and more research is needed. Looking into available devices, I’ve found that they are not made for top bar hives, and due to covid, supply and production lines have been disrupted, so availability is low. I’ve put in an order for components to make my own thermostat controlled heating set up and plan to test it this year in one of my top bars. Worst case scenario, I lose my bees in that hive, but that seems both unlikely and also a risk from the mites anyway. I’ve really enjoyed reading input from people more experienced than myself!  

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On Mar 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Lloyd St. Bees <trexb...@gmail.com> wrote:



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<Heating hive to kill varroa.pdf>

[Paul Zelenski]

Yes, thanks for the actual info, Trevor. I was seeing some discussion on the Mighty Mite facebook about this study. Obviously, as supporters, they were spinning it as best they could and pointing out where he may have gone wrong. It just goes to show that this is still not very well understood and there is not a ton of consensus. Personally, I’ll keep an eye on it but am not willing to risk my bees just yet.

 

Of course, if you want to make a device for your tbh and are willing to risk their health for science, we’ll all love to hear your results. Please keep us informed. Also, please be as precise as you can in your techniques and measurements in order to provide the best info that you can. Anecdotal ‘evidence’ gets better the more detailed it is to allow others to try to replicate it.

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[Greg V]

Before getting too deep into this subject, I would instead research the OA if you are concerned - quick, easy, cheap, natural, EPA approved (see recent threads).

Chances are pretty high, you will just take a long road to the same (if going via the thermal route).

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[Curtis Ryals]

I can do an alcohol wash for mite counts before and after heat treatments from the same section of the hive.  I can also observe capped brood patterns before and after.  That being said, I do not have the expertise or resources to evaluate brood development, longevity, drone counts, or sperm vitality, ether with the drones or within the queen.  I certainly do not want to harm my bees, but I think the potential risk/benefit ratio of a heat treatment outweighs the risk/benefit ratio of a mite problem, at least for a back yard hobbyist.  I think using a thermostat controlled heating system, you can be quite precise with the internal temp of the hive.  If I am wrong, I will probably weaken the hive, mostly the drones, and possibly the queen.  I suppose if things go really awry, I would lose the hive, but that seems very unlikely from what I've ready, or at least no more likely than mite problems and winter.  On the plus side, I will likely significantly reduce mite loads, and may even eliminate them in a best case scenario. 

[Lloyd St. Bees]

For those still wondering about using thermal treatments for mite control, ABJ published the second half of Randy's research this month. Attached is the article. Looks like it can kill phoretic some mites as long as the bees stay within the colony during treatment, but not under the capped brood. This leads to an eventual rebound of mite populations in about 45 days. Honestly, I feel that this article was thrown together a little too quick compared to how comprehensive the first article was. Read the attachment for more details.

Trevor

Lloyd St. Bees

[Curtis Ryals]

Thanks Trevor.  I'm going to try it this year, and I'll report back.  Here is my set up that finally arrived.  I ordered a silicon heat mat that will fit my top bar hive.  I had to buy a plug attachment and install it which was very easy.  I also ordered a thromostat controlled outlet.  I've tested it out in a cardboard box and it works beautifully.  The heat mat is either on or off, but the thermostat goes inside the box (or hive) and measures the temp.  When it reaches the temp, the switch turns off.  when it gets low, the switch turns back on and maintains a steady temp.  I'm going to try it this summer and will report back. 

[trex raptor]

Any update on how this thermal treatment went for killing mites at the end of the season?

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