Emergency Queen Cells?

[Jeff Steinhauer]

Hello All,
Tonight was the first time going into my hive since the beginning of June. No queen, no brood. But there are some of these. I'm hoping that they are emergency queen Cells. Please confirm.

Thank you,
Jeff S.

[John Thompson]

Drone cells.

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

So I basically have a dead colony. 
Great.~

[John Thompson]

How many bees left? Why weren't you able to check for 2 months?

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 8:25 PM Jeff Steinhauer <jsteinh...@gmail.com> wrote:

So I basically have a dead colony. 
Great.~

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

There is still a fair amount left in the hive.  They are still pulling in nectar and pollen, but it appears there is no future.  I'll check again over the weekend when there is more daylight.  Tomorrow I'll close down the entrance to diminish the chances of robbing.  I'll also have to start calling around to see if I can find anyone with a mated queen.

I would check to see if they were coming or going, but I didn't crack the hood.  A lot of stuff is happening this summer.

[Bill]

Capital Bee, got a new shipment of mated queen bees last week.  I picked up 2 queens because for the first time, I found myself in need of 2 queens in the middle of summer.  I did a split that didn't produce a queen and meanwhile, somehow or another, the original hive became queenless.

[Jeff Steinhauer]

So another beekeeper and I went through the hive again this afternoon.  We found a queen on a frame with a couple of queen cups.  He thinks that she is mated, and that she might have been out on her mating flight when I was working the hive last night.  I will give her a couple days to get laying, and inspect the hive again Sunday or Monday.  They seemed much happier tonight, less aggressive, and quieter.  Added some HBH & sugar water to the hive to give them a boost.  Fingers crossed they can build up enough before fall fully sets in.

Thank you for replies.

Jeff S.

[John Thompson]

Good news!

I would give her more than a couple of days though. I was advised to wait up to a week for first eggs. Could be sooner.

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[jeanne hansen]

Be sure to give them a pollen patty, as well.  Sugar water is all very well, but they can't build up without pollen, and LOTS of it.

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

[marvin]

The ragweed is just starting to open up.  No need for a pollen patty then.

[jeanne hansen]

Wait!  Ragweed is wind pollinated, that is why people are so allergic to it.  Bees don't utilize pollen from wind-pollinated p;lants.

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

On Thursday, August 15, 2019, 05:38:12 PM CDT, marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

The ragweed is just starting to open up.  No need for a pollen patty then.

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[Paul Zelenski]

While generally that is the case, I feel like I’ve seen bees getting pollen from ragweed. Maybe it’s just so plentiful, or they were desperate. Or I’m misremembering. 

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[jeanne hansen]

They must have been desperate; in the same way they collect corn and coal dust in the early spring :)

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

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[jeanne hansen]

OH, wait!  Maybe he mis-spoke, and meant Goldenrod??

Yes it is just opening up.

But in my location, there isn't even enough goldenrod to sustain the hive.  The poor bees!

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

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[Math Heinzel]

Maple is wind pollinated, they collect pollen from it, and also Corn.  Why would they avoid wind-pollinated plants for pollen?  Nector, or course, is missing, but if they are seeking pollen, they don’t need the nectar to sweeten the deal…

Math

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[Paul Zelenski]

Interesting, I never realized that maple was wind pollinated. I always wonder why it bloomed so early when there are so few insects to pollinate it. Guess I never really looked I to it.

I’ve never seen them on corn and my reading says they do not visit it much at all. 

I think the theory is that plants that are wind pollinated don’t do anything to attract bees and generally aren’t good sources because of it. Ain return the bees mostly ignore them. But, some wind pollinated plants still have abundant pollen and could be good targets. Ragweed definitely has an abundance of pollen. If it is nutritious the bees can collect a bunch very easily. And since I’m pretty sure I’ve seen bees on it, I’m guessing they do exploit it. 

Of course, if this discussion is about goldenrod, that’s different. It does seem to be starting to bloom early this year. Some years it has a decent flow and other years while it looks great, it provides little for the bees. I guess we’ll see what this year turns out to be. 

As for pollen patties, a small nuc without any foragers will benefit greatly from sources of both protein and carbs (pollen and nectar) inside the hive. So, syrup and patties could be helpful to a nuc of all nurse bees and no foragers. 

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[John Thompson]

I would think European honeybees, not having evolved with corn, wouldn't use it as a source. 

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[marvin]

OMG!  They hammer ragweed!  Watch the next month and see all that bright yellow pollen that comes in.  They absolutely load up on the stuff.  I get upset that they tie up so much frame volume on stored pollen they never use.  

As for corn, I was never sure about field corn because there's just so much of it.  But they hit sweet corn hard and happily.  I don't know if that's a difference between the quality of field vs sweet corn pollen, or just the timing of pollen availability.  But even though corn is wind pollinated, the bees collect it with purpose and fervor.

Personally, I have never fed a pollen cake/substitute and never will.  In Wisconsin, the natural, highest quality stuff is out there from March till October (give or take).  Why bother with the cost and hassle of a low quality product when nature gives you the best for free?

[Matt H]

It all depends on location. There's a lot of competition in Madison due to, in my opinion, too many hives. I know that's a bit of a loaded statement but there's a lot of hives in Madison proper. Given it's a city with mostly human chosen/planted vegetation there's times where there's very little pollen/nectar available because in general there's limited diversity of plants (compared to more wild areas).

[jeanne hansen]

YES!  You have exactly described my situation living in Madison.  Thank you, Matt.

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

On Friday, August 16, 2019, 12:04:38 PM CDT, Matt H <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

It all depends on location. There's a lot of competition in Madison due to, in my opinion, too many hives. I know that's a bit of a loaded statement but there's a lot of hives in Madison proper. Given it's a city with mostly human chosen/planted vegetation there's times where there's very little pollen/nectar available because in general there's limited diversity of plants (compared to more wild areas). 

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[Paul Zelenski]

Yeah. I used to see a large flow when the ornamental apples bloomed but the rest of the year was pretty sparse. I see some streets lined with basswood too, which I’m sure is great for nearby bees. But, I think I lack of diversity leaves for spikes and troughs of nutrition. 

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[marvin]

If that's the case, is urban beekeeping really wise?  It's kind of like raising milking cows in the desert (OK, I know they do that).   

[Greg V]

Urban/suburban beekeeping is totally wise, but only after foraging status has been found as satisfactory. Do your homework before getting the bees.

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 2:25 PM marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

If that's the case, is urban beekeeping really wise?  It's kind of like raising milking cows in the desert (OK, I know they do that).   

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[marvin]

What's the equation Greg?  How does assess adequate forage?  I have a hint:  If you here those white and black things that go "moo", you're probably in a good location.  

[Greg V]

The "moo test" does not default to a good location.

All too often the "moo test" only correlates with lots of corn and lots of soy (and IF lucky, alfalfa).

Some roadside weed forage if lucky (but the roadside is not the cleanest place to forage either).

What the equation for urbun/suburban forage?

Well, if you have (or plan to have) bees:

- google the area within 1-2 miles of your bee base so you know up front of any significant open space/scrap land and dumps/railroads/power line/parks and reserves/construction sites/stuff like that

- go and drive/bike/walk/run there and see what is really going on

  (do it about end of April/end of June/end of July - generally three times in season is enough; even less is enough if you identify the plants well)

  you can bet, I criss-crossed my area back and forth all over and know pretty well what my bees are eating (partially why I even started the bees - all that bee forage is all over here)

- estimate if any significant amounts of forage are present (talking of acres in total of bloom - the bloom usable by the honey bees, to be clear);

   you have to have some acreage, some significant patches of bloom, good groups of trees or large trees

   not a couple of useless rain-gardens or useless ornamental plantings;

   most all native prairie restorations are useless too (I live next to one - it is useless)

       - unless the restoration contains some sweet clovers/thistles for mid-summer and late-summer forage of goldenrods/asters/more thistles

   lots and lots of noxious weeds is always a good sight as for me, I just love them hated weeds, thistles are the best;

   I got great Canada thistle patches all over here, Bull thistle, Burdock - all that good stuff;

   Wish had more knapweed, last year in Montana I was knocked off my feet - so much knapweed they have (great honey - they sell it labeled just like that "knapweed honey" - I brought some home)

   I don't know why beekeepers shy away from just saying it - weeds are good - you want consistent forage/you want lots of weeds

- so basically if you observe some good foraging available for your bees within 1-2 miles of direct flight (NOT over the Dane county lakes, of course) - then your bees should be able to support themselves, and then some..

I assume most everyone with bees knows of three general large blooming time frames in our vicinity (early, mid-summer, late-summer) and any local variations around those.

Enough said about the main blooms during those time frames.

You want some significant forage during every time frame so there is always some income (at least the break-even income).

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 8:40 PM marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

What's the equation Greg?  How does assess adequate forage?  I have a hint:  If you here those white and black things that go "moo", you're probably in a good location.  

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[Greg V]

What is "pollen cake"?

:)

There is some much pollen plugging up the frames it makes them useless, I cut it out and harvest the darn thing.

Why is it people feeding pollen substitute?

I can understand how the weak bee clusters are not always able to get the pollen from the frames (talking cold spring situation).

OK, here - you can freeze some pollen plugged combs ahead of time for later use OR just harvest them mid-winter from the dead-outs.

(just cut the combs out and freeze them for later - for yourself and for the bees - OK, I see, plastic foundation may make it harder if you do plastic).

For the bees - lay those combs with pre-saved bee bread (thawed, of course) directly over the frames when/where you need them.

The bees will get the quality bee bread as needed (just like they get the dry sugar) from above the frames much easier.

It is easier than trying to get that pollen from the cold bottom super (where it is usually is found) AND the bees get the proper nutrients (not a substitute).

[marvin]

I'll stick with the Bossie test, thank you.

But seriously, right now, while some people are talking about "dearth"  and lack of forage, I have acres of blooming alfalfa and clover along with the all the weeds and wildflowers.  Rural Wisconsin is not all acres and acres of Roundup Ready crops.  It's still weedy hay fields, weedy fencelines and more and more restored prairies.   I don't mean to discredit the urban beekeeping movement, but it might be wiser for the urban enthusiasts to set up rural instead.  No need for permits, or dealing with neighbors.  Not as convenient, but a greater chance for success.  I drive by scattered hives all over the place right now.  It seems that a little cajoling with rural landowners might land you in a sight better suited for success.  

[Paul Zelenski]

Right now, it seems there are more people lookin for bees than people willing to put bees on peoples property. Every year we have people message the listserv looking for bees. I may cut down on my numbers next year, but have some fantastic people where I keep bees and will feel bad if I leave them without bees. As I figure out my plans for th coming years, I may be looking for people to take over some of these sites. 

Anyway, there are plenty of good places to keep bees, but also deceptively bad places. Just being in the country is not a guarantee of good forage. 

As for pollen, some locations have abundant pollen some much less. For the most part, WI had plentiful pollen, but clearly some locations (and seasons) are lacking. So, everyone should do what is best for them and their bees. 

On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:39 AM, marvin <marvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'll stick with the Bossie test, thank you.

But seriously, right now, while some people are talking about "dearth"  and lack of forage, I have acres of blooming alfalfa and clover along with the all the weeds and wildflowers.  Rural Wisconsin is not all acres and acres of Roundup Ready crops.  It's still weedy hay fields, weedy fencelines and more and more restored prairies.   I don't mean to discredit the urban beekeeping movement, but it might be wiser for the urban enthusiasts to set up rural instead.  No need for permits, or dealing with neighbors.  Not as convenient, but a greater chance for success.  I drive by scattered hives all over the place right now.  It seems that a little cajoling with rural landowners might land you in a sight better suited for success.  

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[Greg V]

If you are in SW Madison, Middleton, Fitchburg, Verona, Oregon, NE Madison - foraging should be fine (just by driving around I feel so). It is only the Ithmus area that may be poor. While we hear about often, it is rather an exception. Suburbs in Dame county have plenty of diverse forage.

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[Jimmer Yunek]

I live in monona. I have 4 hives, a neighbor has 3 and another neighbor has 2.  About 8 blocks there is a friend with two hives. For the most part, they have all done pretty well with honey and colony production.  I think there is plenty to forage on in this area.

Jimmer

608-279-5542

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[BETSY TRUE]

The lakes are barren for bees and significantly reduces their territory.

Get Outlook for iOS

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jimmer Yunek <jim...@starkhomes.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 9:11:57 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [madbees] Emergency Queen Cells?

 

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[Joseph Bessetti]

While the open water doesn't provide forage, the diversity of plants along the shoreline and wetlands around lakes and ponds can be rich in blooming plants. 

I removed a colony from a house on the shore of lake Mendota just a few weeks ago, and it was doing great.

Joe

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[Greg V]

Ponds and wetland are great.

I am so glad in Fitchbug they keep creating water-retention areas as a part of smart-building code - great forage.

The new one near me was a great clover pasture this summer.

Anyway, just back from one of my yards..

Two large hives are the anchors there.

One is a great lineage from some ferals - great comb builders, lots of bees (up to 8 potential start-ups from this single queen already this summer), no chemicals third summer.

I just pulled some honey after all that splitting and more is on they way.

Another "anchor" about 30 feet away - worthless package bees from a captured swarm (they should have just died last winter; they did not - so I kept them).

Made one split (just in case) this year - also looks to be junk.

All they do - eat and grow; eat and grow.

No honey (what little they have I might as well just steal for myself - they will eat it all anyway).

If they live into winter - will just give sugar.

But I did find some chalk brood in them too.

What "wonderful imported gems" these bees are.

So - two hives - 30 feet apart - the same exact forage opportunities - the differences are stark.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Excellent point.  Not all bees are equally capable of thriving in this area.  These differences sort themselves out when we let them.    Joe

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[Diane Packett]

Greg V, any chance you would sell a nuc from that feral lineage hive next year? I remember you took some used plastic frames off my hands once--I can throw in lots of those too. :-)

Diane

[Greg V]

Have no plans at this time. 

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 9:38 AM Diane Packett <dlpa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Greg V, any chance you would sell a nuc from that feral lineage hive next year? I remember you took some used plastic frames off my hands once--I can throw in lots of those too. :-)

Diane

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[Diane Packett]

Greg V, well, think about it. Bees that can make it three years treatment-free, keep their numbers up and produce a lot of honey can do a lot of good out there in the world. :-)

[Paul Zelenski]

There were a few of us (including Greg) that were going to start a breeding program and natural selection for treatment free bees. Things didn’t really get going this year as well as we planned but hopefully we’ll make some more progress next year. We have a couple locations where we think we can control the drones to actually do some selective breeding. If things go well, we may have a stabile lineage within a few years and be able to provide nucs. Fingers crossed. 

On Aug 18, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Diane Packett <dlpa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Greg V, well, think about it. Bees that can make it three years treatment-free, keep their numbers up and produce a lot of honey can do a lot of good out there in the world. :-)

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Checked my hive again today. I found the queen on the same bar as last week. I didn't see any eggs or larvae yet, so I'll wait and check once more on Friday.  If nothing, I may have to requeen.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Joseph Bessetti]

It can take a couple weeks for a new queen to start laying, and it's easier to see patches of brood than eggs unless you're really good at spotting eggs.  You may want to wait a little longer than Friday.

Joe

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Today will be 14 days since my OP, so how much longer should I wait?  There are still a few capped drones, so it hasn't been a full 24 days since I had a laying queen, but there was zero brood on Friday.  I fear that I will run out of workers if I wait much longer.  There is plenty of pollen and nectar in the hive, but the numbers of bees looks smaller each time I check.  Either I have an old dud queen that is no longer laying and they haven't superseded her yet or I have a young queen that hasn't started laying yet.  I will check tonight, and let you know if there has been any progress.  

http://blogs.evergreen.edu/terroir-zack/life-cycle-of-the-honey-bee/

https://beehour.com/how-long-does-it-take-for-a-queen-bee-to-start-laying-eggs/

"If all conditions are perfect when a queen hatches, she will start on her mating flight in 2-4 days, and it will take another 6-8 days for her to begin laying.

It can take up to 3 weeks for the new queen to hatch, mature, mate, and start laying and there are a variety of factors that can affect this timetable, including variation in the days until maturity or weather delays for the mating flight."

Thank you,

Jeff S

On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 9:43:48 AM UTC-5, Joe wrote:

It can take a couple weeks for a new queen to start laying, and it's easier to see patches of brood than eggs unless you're really good at spotting eggs.  You may want to wait a little longer than Friday.

Joe

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-------- Original message --------

From: Jeff Steinhauer <jsteinh...@gmail.com>

Date: 8/19/19 22:10 (GMT-06:00)

To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [madbees] Re: Emergency Queen Cells?

Checked my hive again today. I found the queen on the same bar as last week. I didn't see any eggs or larvae yet, so I'll wait and check once more on Friday.  If nothing, I may have to requeen.

Thanks,
Jeff

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Based on the information that you have provided, tonight is the earliest that a new queen might be laying, and it could take her up to another 2 weeks.  You'll be looking for eggs tonight.  She'll usually start on the face of one comb, near the center of the broodnest that the workers prepare for her.  It will take a day or so to fill that first comb and move to the next one, which will usually be adjacent to the first one.   I usually start either in the center of the brood frames, or near the center of where the highest density of workers is in the brood frames.  That's where you're most likely to find any brood, and maybe a queen if she's laying. 

I don't recall:  do you have another hive?  A frame of brood should tell you if they have a queen or not, even if she's not yet laying.   If they make queen cells, you're queenless and need to get a queen.  If they don't make queen cells, you're probably ok.  Either way, a frame or two of brood would boost the numbers of bees and the morale of the hive, and if they're queenless would give you an answer in a few days rather than potentially waiting another 2 weeks.

Joe

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Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Emergency Queen Cells?

 

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[Paul Zelenski]

A new queen will also usually start laying next to the brood if you give them a frame or two of eggs 

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Good morning Joe,

I do not have another hive.  Since I'm working with a modified TBH, it might be difficult to add brood frames from a langstroth, but not impossible.  I have seen the queen on each of the last four inspections.  She hasn't left the frame I found her on two weeks ago.  That might have been the frame she hatched on, and might start laying on.

As a way to prep the hive for a new queen, how much time should I give them after pitching the current queen off?  I can have a new queen in like 36 hours.

Thank you,

Jeff S.

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[Paul Zelenski]

So, you know you have a new queen? But you’re thinking of offing her? I’d leave everything alone without any inspections or interruptions in the hive for at least a week to give her a chance to get going. If you do replace her, you can take her out and immediately put another queen in, assuming she is in a cage to protect her. It’s better if you give them an hour or two to realize they re queenless. I don’t like to let a hive go more than 24 hours without a queen if there are eggs or they can start queen cells. If there are no eggs, it doesn’t really matter. Be sure to leave the new queen caged for st least 3 full days. 

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

I currently have a queen screen between my TBH body and the langstroth mediums on top, I can remove it to allow her to move up into those boxes, if I place a frame of brood in them.

Thank you,

Jeff S.

[Paul Zelenski]

Well, if you know there is a queen, you don’t need to give them brood. The eggs are a test if there is a queen or not. 

Like I said before, I think the most important thing is to leave her undisturbed for awhile. 

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[Matt H]

Beautiful hive Jeff!

[Jeff Steinhauer]

Hello Paul,

I again spotted my queen last night, along with a few cells with larvae.  I am hoping that this is a good turn around, and that there is still time for the hive to get to a good spot before winter sets in.  I have attached a few photos and links to my YouTube page for videos.

Thank you,

Jeff S.

Single Bar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxt2CSondb4

Top of Bars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXFsM46nyHA

[Jeff Steinhauer]

Thank you Matt,

If you would like to take a look some time, please let me know.

Thanks again,
Jeff S.

[Joseph Bessetti]

Some of these capped cells appear to have domed caps, consistent with drones, despite being on what looks like worker comb.

Hard for me to tell, but are you seeing both flat caps and domed caps on worker comb?    If so, she is laying, but not consistently fertilizing the eggs.  This can sometimes happen with a new queen just starting to lay.

I think your next milestone is to see and assess more frames of brood, paying close attention to the caps.  You want to see a fairly solid brood pattern with no domed (drone) caps on any of the worker cells.   The hive probably shouldn't be producing any drones right now, but if they do it should only be in solid sections of drone comb (obviously larger cells).

Joe

[Jeff Steinhauer]

Thank you Joe,

Yes, there are a few (literally 3) normally capped brood comb that I was able to observe.  I am concerned that the larvae in the pictures are going to turn out to be drones in brood cells.  Next inspection will be a 1-1.25 weeks from today.

"This can sometimes happen with a new queen just starting to lay."  I am relieved that this is normal for a new queen.  

A few other observations is that the wings all look good, so I'm not seeing any DWV.  I haven't seen any SHB or Wax Moths.  Uncapping a few drones showed no VDM.  There is also no signs of AFM or EFB, but with minimal brood, that is a very small sample size.  The hive smells amazing, and they are continuing to bring in nectar & pollen.  The queen looks to have increased in size from 2 weeks ago, by about 1/8th of an inch.  I haven't checked my oil tray, which lays directly below the brood zone. 

This frames are also marked to be cleared next spring.  I basically cut the cells off the frames, and melt them down to get the wax.  I don't want to allow the brood frames to be in my hives for more than two years, as each generation adds a cocoon to the cells

Thanks again,

Jeff S.

[Paul Zelenski]

The fact that she is getting bigger is normal and a sign that you were probably expecting her to lay a bit too soon. After she mates it takes a bit for her to fatten up and get ready to lay. It could be that she’s poorly mated and those are drones, or it could be that she’s just warming up. I’m glad to hear that you’re going to give her at least a week undisturbed. When you come back you’ll be able to assess the sorusri n much better. I ave noticed that draft ne layers seem to prefer to,lay in the drone cells. It’s almost like they know they’re poorly mated. But, they’ll have spotty patterns of mixed brood in the worker cells. 

I also had a few queens this year that just never started laying. They were ft, happy and looked like good queens but after 2 months, I gave up removed them and let the nuc raise a new queen. So, it can happen that there is a seemingly good queen that just never lays for some reason 

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Hello All,

It looks like Friday afternoon (4:30-5:30) is going to be the first/best day for me to check my mTBH.  If anyone would like to check it out, please let me know.  My main goal is to see if the queen is laying brood followed by a sugar roll.  I'm located in West Madison near Raymond and Whitney.

Thank you,
Jeff S.

[Jeff Steinhauer]

I think she is a dud. How long before introducing a new queen she I give without this one?

[John Thompson]

Secure a mated queen first, then pinch original queen, introduce mated queen in cage. 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019, 7:02 PM Jeff Steinhauer <jsteinh...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think she is a dud.  How long before introducing a new queen she I give without this one?

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Here are some pictures of today's Inspection

[Paul Zelenski]

She looks nice and healthy, but that pattern does not. You can put a new queen in a cage in as soon as your remove her. Don’t release the new queen for 3 full days, though. Probably better to remove the queen for an hour or so before putting in the new one, but not needed.

> On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Jeff Steinhauer <jsteinh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here are some pictures of today's Inspection
>

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[trex raptor]

Your frames looks really bare for this time of the season. Have you tried feeding pollen sub? They maybe cannibalizing the eggs she is laying if they are to light on protein. 

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 1:07:52 AM UTC-5, Paul Zelenski wrote:

She looks nice and healthy, but that pattern does not. You can put a new queen in a cage in as soon as your remove her. Don’t release the new queen for 3 full days, though. Probably better to remove the queen for an hour or so before putting in the new one, but not needed.

> On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Jeff Steinhauer <jsteinh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here are some pictures of today's Inspection
>
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[Paul Zelenski]

Good point. There ‘should’ be a lot of pollen coming in right now. But on those frames, I don’t see any stored pollen. 

Even so, I think the queen is no good. The capped larvae in there are clearly drones.

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Hello Trex,

There are frames adjacent to the empty brood frames that are packed full of pollen.  A worker had pollen pouches filled with orange pollen, was walking along the side board about half way through the inspection.  Bars behind are packed with nectar, well on their way to being honey.  Documentation of food stores was not the goal of my inspection, so I didn't take any images of them.  I can add a pollen patty, and continue to feed them.  But I'm not going to pinch her off and order a new queen.

This queen is a dud, and I think it is too late to try and deal with it before winter sets in.  Maybe if I ordered a queen a month ago when I noticed this ordeal, they would have had time to build up before winter.  But I'm not going to double guess, and play all the what ifs.  I'm going to reduce the entrances to make sure they don't get robbed out or mice.  I fully expect to have a dead-out by Thanksgiving, harvest some honey for personal consumption and mead.  Then order a new set of package bees in the spring.

Thanks, 
Jeff S.

[Paul Zelenski]

It’s not too late if the hive is strong and you purchase a queen. Especially if you’re willing to feed. A new queen could have brood emerging by the end of the month. 

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[Matt H]

If they die out or weaken enough before a hard freeze watch out for wax moths. They can quickly destroy a lot of perfectly good drawn out combs. I've learned that one the hard way.

[Jeff Steinhauer]

After Trex & Paul's comments, I've added a pollen paddy, loose pollen, and comb from previous year clean outs.  I am going to feed them, in the slight case they are cannibalizing eggs for protein.  Not going to buy a new queen.  Already budgeting to buy another package next spring.  This was not a full inspection, just cracked the lid to see if they were consuming the food.

Link to video is below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBJ6DuT3SVs

[Greg V]

One thing I see from your photo/video evidence - lack of bee density.

At that rate, even a good queen will not lay much - the proper micro-climate is just not there (too much open air, simply put).

I got several smallish nucs (up to 8-10 Lang medium frames) - but I have them compressed as tightly as I can to provide the bee density so the queens can lay in normal conditions.

So the queen could be totally fine.

That lack of proper laying conditions is properly the actual issue at hand to be handled (if still possible).

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Greg,

Please remember that this is a modified top bar hive, not a standard langstroth.  Most of the bees are down in main body of the hive with the queen.

[Greg V]

Ah! True. I remember the picture.

So then still - that is a rather huge volume.

If the entire volume is wide open while the remaining colony is small and in distress - even a good queen will not lay there much if at all.

I would drastically compress them to the # of frames still covered by the bees (ideally into a small nuc hive or by deploying few follower boards).

Then maybe something positive will happen.

A small colony in large hive - a misfit.

Nights are getting cool, meanwhile.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 4:05 PM Jeff Steinhauer <jsteinh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Greg,

Please remember that this is a modified top bar hive, not a standard langstroth.  Most of the bees are down in main body of the hive with the queen.

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Good idea Greg,

I'll try to compress when there isn't a chance for thunderstorms, and flash flooding.  I have a divider board that I can keep them to the front of the hive.

[Greg V]

It it is best if the "divider board" is passable by the bees under and/or around.

This way you can continue supplementing them as you do now.

At the same time they can huddle tight and maybe finally the queen will actually be laying.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 4:21 PM Jeff Steinhauer <jsteinh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good idea Greg,

I'll try to compress when there isn't a chance for thunderstorms, and flash flooding.  I have a divider board that I can keep them to the front of the hive.

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[Paul Zelenski]

Any reasonable cluster with a good new queen would be able to cover a patch of brood. And would do so this time of year. The fact that there are also drone larvae means it’s probably a bad queen. If the population is fine, $30 is worth it for a healthy colony. If not, might as well combine now and use/harvest the honey. 

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[Greg V]

Interestingly, I found one of my young queens this season started as a "drone layer".

Indeed.

She is fine now.

Was just learning the rope I guess.

So - never know.

:)

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[Greg V]

I still think the hive design is not the best as it is now.

The warmest place in the hive is in that raised Lang part - and yet that exact part is about the farthest from the entrance (where the bees would like have the nest).

And so what are the bees to do?

The follower board is an attempt to mitigate; there is nothing to loose at this point.

[Paul Zelenski]

Yeah, it can happen, but it’s been a long time that we’ve been watching this queen. 

I agree that there is no reason to have the Lang part on now. I assume that is a honey super that would be removed for winter anyway. If not, the bees are going to get confused about which way their moving in the hive over winter. For wintering in a horizontal hive, you want the broodnest at one end of the hive so they start either at one end and move horizontally throughout winter. 

Having a hive that is not stretched to fill the space can definitely help with a good brood pattern, but I’d be surprised if that’s the problem here. 

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[Greg V]

..... it’s been a long time that we’ve been watching this queen. 

I guess I lost the track by now.

Haha!

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[Joseph Bessetti]

I think this is the one that has been laying drones in worker comb.  I've had young queens misfire on a few cells early on, but never had one get better that laid like this one.  

This usually funks up good worker comb too, so I don't let these go for long.  But then I always seem to have more bees than I have comb for.  It was another good year for swarms, albeit later than ideal for most.

Joe

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[Paul Zelenski]

Yup joe, that’s why I said buy s queen or year the hive down. I would expect anything from this queen. 

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