Classic Car Repair

[Scooby]

I have a couple of repairs to do on my classic car, around May-July when it can be brought in but just thought i'd make sure it was alright first please and thank you.

I will observe and obey the evenings and Sundays outdoors working restrictions.

I will abide to all the space rules.

I will keep the area very clean and tidy at all times.

I will be using all my own tools.

All members are welcome to get involved.

Space being used will be about 3 meters by 1.5 meters

Thanks all.

[Dave Mansfield]

Thanks for giving this much notice.

I assume you mean taking up a car parking space for a month in the yard? It's getting quite busy out there.

Do you know how long you'll need the space for?

[mentar]

This has arrived on may the 23rd and we are yet to hear a completion date.  As per rule 8 can you please provide one.

Cheers
Mentar

[Men tar]

Adding to original thread due to truncation:

This has arrived on may the 23rd and we are yet to hear a completion date.  As per rule 8 can you please provide one.

Cheers

Mentar

On 18 June 2014 16:58, mentar <ment...@gmail.com> wrote:

This has arrived on may the 23rd and we are yet to hear a completion date.  As per rule 8 can you please provide one.

Cheers
Mentar

On Thursday, 24 April 2014 16:34:51 UTC+1, Dave Mansfield wrote:

Thanks for giving this much notice.

I assume you mean taking up a car parking space for a month in the yard? It's getting quite busy out there.

Do you know how long you'll need the space for?

On Wednesday, 23 April 2014 19:20:22 UTC+1, Scooby wrote:

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[Paddy Duncan]

As below, can you please provide a completion date?

Cheers

Paddy

[Mark Steward]

CCing Scooby because he doesn't receive emails from the list.

[Paddy Duncan]

Can I propose that receiving ML emails becomes mandatory for those with stored projects????

Paddy

[Men tar]

I think it should be a requirement of being a member!

[Dave Mansfield]

This should probably be a new thread, as interested people may not be reading about the car.

e.g.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/announce|sort:date/london-hack-space/s1wCZ1jnwbA/Jpiyc-E81okJ

[Scooby]

This Classic Car Project did not arrive to the space on the 23rd of April as Mentar nicely pointed out, that was the date when i asked the mailing list for permission, i can be seen working on this project quite often and no ones said to me, asked, of left any note on my project regarding this matter of urgency, i'm not using the space as storeage so don't understand why all the above persons are so concerned about my completion date when they have seen me at the space recently and i would of been more than happy to of updated them and the mailing list if they'd asked me in person, i did also mention it already in my first post for around May-July, if it's an exact date you'll need then can i call it the 31st of August please? to be on the safe side, and thank you all.

[Dave Mansfield]

There's been a lot of discussion on the list about storing things in the yard. Some projects have had to be been postponed due to lack of space with the existing projects.

September sounds a long way off.

[Men tar]

Looking back I forgot to put the month in my original email, it arrived on the 23rd of May (you should have really emailed the list about when it arrived)

You ARE using the space as storage and you said yourself you will comply with the rules, which state you should have given a completion date. I do think 4 months is a lot of time for a personal project of that size, I would propose 3 months at most, it's more than enough time for an un-communicated personal project the size of a car. Perhaps if you communicated progress updates say weekly on how the project is going (similarly how we ask the guys involved with the container project) people would be more inclined to have the project stay longer.

Thanks
Mentar

[Tim Reynolds]

Indeed, keeping the car in the space between working on it is storage. It's a long time, I'd go for three too. It was running on Wednesday, what else needs doing to it?

[Scooby]

Ok Metar i'll do as you say and i won't store my proect in the space as your claiming, and you fully knew that you didn't forget to put the month i brought my project in your original Email, you clearly knew this when you posted your complaint on the 18th of June that my project hadn't been there for the 8 weeks and more like 3.5 weeks, what are you trying to do? and Tim R again thanks for getting involved, if you saw me on Wednesdays working on my project why didn't you identify yourself and give me that childrens rattle toy that you posted on the other scrap metal tread that you said i should pick up from you right, if i knew how and what you looked like i'd be more than glad of asked you for your childish present that day, why are you guys so concerned with me doing my project out of harm, out of way and out of sight, theres and Caravan thats in the center of the car park thats been there since day one, x2 gigantic containers with one storing a toy Helicopter Drone in it, a very large yellow trailer frame, plant glowing machine, a Goft Cart, and a Morris Minor car, a whole load of wood and metal shelving everywhere and your more concerned  about my recent Classic Car Project that is tucked away in the far corner of the car park that is nicely covered with a sheet, over an over grown bit on grass verge that i cleared and tidied up myself.

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:20:22 PM UTC+1, Scooby wrote:

[tom]

cut the personal attacks and bullshit scooby, its not earning you any friends. The less you act like a prick the less people will act like a prick to you.

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

As they say its just an observation 

If you remove the emotion Scoobie raises several valid points 

Being Michael Flatley (tap dancing) with words or being pedantic to invoke a response and then using the response to shoot the respondent down is not very adult.

This forum or hackspace for that matter is not very good in my humble opinion at all at dealing with the facts or process of an issue or as Scoobie points out being even handed and or consistent in dealing with them 

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:20:22 PM UTC+1, Scooby wrote:

[Tim Reynolds]

I didn't have it with me at the time.

But seriously. I don't talk to you in person because of what I've seen and heard. It wouldn't get either of us anywhere and id rather communicate with you on here where it's recorded and archived for all to see - even if that doesn't do me any favours either sometimes. 

When I asked what else it needed doing to I was interested in what your plans were for it. It (seems) to run, but I don't know if it does for extended periods or you were just testing it.  What else are you planning to do to it in the space? What else needs fixing before it can leave? Also note that in my last email I didn't call for it's immediate removal, I said that three months seems fine. 

[Russ Garrett]

On 30 June 2014 09:06, Ndlovu (aka) Dean <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:
> This forum or hackspace for that matter is not very good in my humble
> opinion at all at dealing with the facts or process of an issue or as
> Scoobie points out being even handed and or consistent in dealing with them

In this case, this is simply not true.

All we were asking for was a completion date, in accordance with the
rules. This is especially important for projects in the yard, because
yard space is valuable. If anyone abandons a large project in the yard
it can be costly for us to dispose of it.

All the other examples that Scooby mentioned have either been accepted
as Hackspace infrastructure (and so don't require a completion date),
or have currently got permission to stay in the yard.

The only exception to this is Maria's Morris Minor for which we have
requested and not received a completion date:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/london-hack-space/68X39pEJDxA/8yfWXBObhQMJ

I do not see see where we're being inconsistent here.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Dave Mansfield]

I've updated the wiki to include all the uses, including end dates when know.

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Yard

If you see anything wrong, update the wiki!

[Russ Garrett]

Thanks, that's helpful!

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[Scooby]

There we go again, why doesn't Tom grow up too a use up hes free will not to type away that i'm a prick here on this tread, is this hes childish way too trying to drift away from the real subject.

[tom]

and why dont you tell us when the cars leaving? Youre doing nothing but dodging the question and insulting people

[Bob Clough]

He's calling you a prick because you're acting like a prick.

[Martin (Crypt)]

Scooby, 2 things we require of you: An end date for your project, and actual decipherable writing on the list.  Unless you can provide both, please stop derailing the conversation as your accusing others of.

[Mark Steward]

We've got a date - 31st August. Any objections?

Mark

[tgreer]

It's an extra 2 months on the original timeframe. Can we go for 31st July please?

[Scooby]

I see Bob Clough is also using up he's free mailing list credits too, well done matey and thanks for reminding and adding your (i'm a prick point) comment, at least hes not bothered about my 31st of August completion date as well, maybe it's best i remove my project out of the car park a.s.a.p. as it seems like i'm not welcome here, that way i could get away from other Hackspacers from slagging me off on here.

[Bob Clough]

You're just proving my point.

Why can't you just behave in a pleasant and non-confrontational fashion like the other 2000 people on this mailing list seem to manage?  Its not particularly difficult.

Love,

Bob

[Simon Howes]

Bye!

[Scooby]

Martin (Crypt) have you not read the tread? i'm only responding to what i believe is my tread anyway, you failed to observe others trolling and discrediting me, i have a car that i'm working on in the far corner of the car park well out of everyones way, yes got it started the other week of two ago like Tim R pointed out, one of the cylinders is not firing tho, might have to take the engine out rebuild and replace it, hell do i know how long it will take but will get the dame thing done on the quickky quick quick well before the said date, and theres a few bits for the M.O.T. to do too.

[Dave Mansfield]

The problem is the yard is filling up with projects. We've already had to turn down one due to lack of space. No member is entitled to anything more than a storage box of space.

If you've been granted the use of additional space, the rules point out that asking for an extension is fine. So planning for a realistic completions date, then providing an update if something unplanned (like trouble with the cylinders) does not seem unreasonable.

What do you think to the proposed end date of 31st of July?

If you need longer, could you explain why?

[Scooby]

Hi there tgreer, what extra 2 months from my timeframe are you claiming, don't you think it's a bit unfair to push it to the 31st of July? ive seen so many other projects go for a lot longer and are still there today, does someone urgently need this piece of unused grass space that i'm using up in the corner of the car park? if so i'd be more that happy to remove my project right away and prove my point that i'm not a prick.

It's an extra 2 months on the original timeframe. Can we go for 31st July please?

[Scooby]

Simon Howes, hi hello there and bye bye too.

[Dave Mansfield]

Hi,

Projects have indeed overrun, and then the owners have asked for, and usually been given extensions. 

The bus project urgently needs space in the yard. And there's little room for any new projects. Without a realistic end date for all such exceptional storage requests, no-one can make plans.

I don't think it's unfair to suggest a date of the 31st July, and ask for a reason why longer may be need. If you can provide a clear reason, then I'll read it and consider.

Cheers,

Dave

[Scooby]

Dave Mansfield, thank you very much for pointing this out to me.

 "The problem is the yard is filling up with projects. We've already had to turn down one due to lack of space. No member is entitled to anything more than a storage box of space".

Your so right Dave, that includes me and all the others that are using the carpark too in the same way right, i'm happy to give up my grass verge space right away if it means that another good fellow Hackspace member could make good use of it instead of me, we should be all here working with each other and not stuck in little click groups.

I'm very willing to commit to the the proposed end date of 31st of July, but suspect that i would make it in time hence why i'm asking for the 31st of Aug just to me on the safe side as stated before, so would have to place it back in storeage only to bring it back again next summer please.

[Dave Mansfield]

Updated to reflect end date. Thank you.

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Yard

If you find that it's likely to over run into August, please post to the list again, with an extension request, and a plan for the new end date. This will allow others to plan their uses.

Unless there are any objects to the 31st of July from anyone?

[Akki]

This is your first post below. You asked if it was alright. When someone replied and asked when the completion date was, you never replied. It's your project and your responsibility that the community is okay with your project information.

We have very limited space and parking space in the yard due to large projects and infrastructure. This is why people are getting a bit testy about a project taking a long time to complete.

No one is being singled out - we are trying very hard to get everyone to comply with the rules. It's also very hard to "kick out" a project once it's here, which is why rule 8 of the Hackspace says to email the list *before* bringing in and leaving a project. Just emailing the list and not replying to questions isn't very helpful for the community to say yes or no to the project. Making reasonable estimates and letting the community know the project is being worked on, even with a simple email reply to this thread saying "i did this this week" would be vastly helpful and improve community spirit and lessen tensions.

The rules are there for the benefit of *everyone* at the Hackspace. Please be polite and respectful to others. That's the main goal of the rules. It's slightly unfair to take up a large area of the Hackspace on a personal project for nearly a quarter of the year. That's not just project space but space someone from further away could use to park their car, to help transport their large projects home and not use up a large amount of space for others with less means of taking larger projects home.

There is zero reason for the emotional responses from anyone on this thread. It's terrible behaviour. Shame on everyone on all sides.

For what it's worth, I've previously asked you nicely to stop bullying and personal attacks on people who try to nudge people into the correct behaviour ( https://groups.google.com/d/msg/london-hack-space/LDqhgbKZVII/ZWWaRP9LNvoJ ). You're not a new member. Please play nicely with others if you want to use the facilities of the Hackspace.

~Akki

[Scooby]

"WOW" did you say Bus Dave? what Bus? sounds like a massive project, maybe we should remove one or two of the Containers or that Caravan to make way for it? i shouldn't think that Bus would be using my grass verge space seeing as it might need more like half a carpark, who's project is it? it's not got anything to do with those that are pushing for my completion date has it? surely my project isn't upsetting more than 50% of our 2000 members? or maybe more like 100% of the click group, i reckon we should have a vote with all our 2000 members invvolved to see what Carpark projects need to move on and have out stayed their welcome.

Yes i did already provide you with a clear reason Dave, and hope you will read it again and consider thanks.

[Dave Mansfield]

"What bus?" You mean you're not even paying attention to what you're project is blocking?

Do you not feel that is inconsiderate.

[tom]

please read the mailing list discussions over the bus project, not just to get an idea of what its about but as a way of learning how to conduct yourself here

[Steve Todd]

You're not doing yourself any favours here, nor making fellow members more inclined to grant your next request. The other project owners submitted their case to the list, gave start and end dates, and if required requested extensions.

It's a shared space that some of us would also like to be able to use as originally intended, to park cars in when we bring kit over for a day or evening. You've been given a fair run at the available space and what started as simple requests for end dates and a list of things that still needed doing seems to have degenerated into name calling. How do you think this will help your case if you ask for an extension or another slot for a later project?

[Steve Todd]

I don't think that Fabio counts as a great example of how to behave either.

[Scooby]

Hello Akki, your quite right and i agree with every point of your reply, you couldn't of put it much better, i'm not going to worm my way around this one i have to say, yes i should of put a finish date from day one, and really i should ignore those childish members trying to stir up my post and make me sound like a you know what, but due to only having just brought this car blind as a non runner, and the fact thats it's a 45 year old car it's not so easy for me to of known this until i had the engine up and running, regardless if i did place the completion date which would of asked for the 31st of Aug to be on the safe side but it would of still opened up a can of worms anyway as there is so many haters in the Space that don't want me there.

I still believe that the space that i occupy in the corner of the Carpark is not needed nor will it ever be used, as it was never ever used for anything before, it was overgrown with weeded plants that ive sorted out and looks like a grassy verge, those members who are showing concern do know this already but neither have bothered pointing this out so far which proves my point.

I'm still happy to remove my project to 2015 if it means other member can make better use of my grass verge too.

[Aden]

Can we just draw a line under this and say both scrap cars in the carpark are either removed within 3 weeks, or we scrap them?

[Dave Mansfield]

Don't feed the Troll

[Scooby]

Tom, would like me to read the mailing list discussions over the bus project, what for? what bit of Bus needs space in the Carpark due to my grass verge project getting in the way do i not understand? ok i'll do that and then i'll hopefully learn and conduct myself.

[Akki]

Hi Scooby,

I'd argue that there's a cause and effect thing happening in regards to so-called "haters". Generally people will respond to how they are treated. You didn't respect the rules so people are less inclined to respect you and your requests. I realise it's difficult to give a date but even giving an estimate (with the reason you said) is vastly improved communications. It's perfectly reasonable to say I have no idea what I'm opening up here with this car but I'll guess I'll see what I can do in the next 4 weeks and get back to everyone then. That's exactly what should be done. Be ultra-conservative with your dates so you also feel more inclined to share with everyone what's up and how it's going. If you don't, we get nervous that the project is abandoned which means we have to figure out what to do with it and all that awkward stuff.

I'm glad we're finally communicating more openly about your project. I think we've all gathered way more information about what's going on in the last few hours of the mailing list than we had in the previous weeks/months since your first post. 

Thank you for clearing out that part of the yard. A while back I was considering using that area as more traditional container gardening of vegetables. Every corner of the space can have a potential use. Now you've helpfully cleared that area and shown it can be used for parking cars. It doesn't need to be long term project space, it can be every day-useage like I said previously. Car parking is really quite useful and open to much more members than a single project space. Also I'd like to make it clear - just because you tidied it up, it's not yours. It's Hackspace's property. Again, thank you for clearing it up, we need more people to do intensive cleaning and tidying of the space to improve it for everyone.

Best Wishes,

~Akki

[wyan std]

As a member with a big project stored in the space, it'd be polite to read the ML and know what's going on, what projects are waiting for space, and what projects are being discussed as part of the LHS infrastructure.

[Sarah Simmonds]

Hi Scooby,

You're right a bus takes up a lot of room and fitting it in has been in discussion on the mailing list since May. Members have come to an amicable agreement following the plans outlined here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/london-hack-space/Js9arfi4x4I/cGmbF0WOyfwJ

This discussion has been going since May and they've had to factor in every corner of the yard to maximise availability for projects, parking and infrastructure. There is much greater demand on the yard space than when we first moved in and in an ideal world we would have room for everyone. To allow other members to get time in the yard we need to be vigilant about keeping projects to their promised deadlines. I'd love to see your classic car get fully restored and working the way you want it to, hopefully this can be accomplished without delaying future projects like the bus for too much longer.

Thank you for providing a completion date, I hope you understand that completing your classic car repair by July 31st will help us make space so other equally cool projects can have a go.

[Scooby]

Steve Todd, yes i know i'm not doing myself any favors to the click group fellow members, but isn't there another 1990 other members that should have their say too? haven't i already given a start and finish date already, and offered the surrender of my grass verge for another member who wants to make better use of it instead of me? what you on about haven't you been reading my side of the post?

Your not getting it, the space i am using is not such a big deal, it's never been noticed or ever been used, theres no doubt once ive moved from there one of the click group members will fill it up to prove their point, why does nobody mention this? if my project was elevated and floating in thin air above the same space those very same members will still be complaining about it.

[Scooby]

Sorry Todd, don't know who this Fabio is.

[wyan std]

Used or not, it's part of the Hackspace, and you are expected to follow its rules as everyone else.

--

[Akki]

For what it's worth, I think that space was factored into the bus space allowance and was earmarked for more parking so it does kind of impact that project's careful planning.

[Dave Mansfield]

It has been noticed, and discussed, on the Mailing list. The only place the 2000+ members can reasonably discuss things.

If you have an alternative proposal to the Mailing list, please suggest it.

On Tuesday, 1 July 2014 14:13:09 UTC+1, Scooby wrote:

[Scooby]

Why is ad...@aden.org.uk recommending that there is two scrap cars in the Carpark that he/she should have them removed or scraped? isn't that person/member/robot old enough to know that those two vehicles are owned by members and that one of them is here right now messaging and trying to resolve this and is offering up the space for an other member to make better use of it, isn't  ad...@aden.org.uk also aware that there are lots of other items of scrap value in the Carpark?

[Dave Mansfield]

Scooby, Don't feed the Troll. Aden's mailing list posts are almost always sarcastic, and just designed to annoy. It's best to ignore him.

[Steve Todd]

And there you go again. I've read both sides in this thread and you're the one who is asking the space members for something they don't have to grant. There may be 1900 odd members, but there are far less than that active on the mailing list, and if you continue with the hostile responses you'll struggle to gain sympathy when making requests in future.

Fabio was the guy who make the request about the bus, and he nearly wrecked his chances due to his initial attitude that he was right and everyone else was wrong (do you see any parallels here?).

Regards,

Steve

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[Scooby]

Hello there Sarah Simmonds, my apologies for the very late reply and for blocking the Bus project as you suggested, I decided to removed and postpone my Classic Car Project now for 2015 next year, same place, same time, it was removed by the way yesterday morning 8th July and i bet theres about 20 really happy smiling members too now, it upsets me to know that the Bus is honestly awaiting my departure despite my car being the last to enter this Carpark and the first to get booted up the rear, i did not confirm that i would be 100% gone by the 31st of July so you'll be pleased to know that i'm 24days early anyway, and yes i agree other equally cool projects should have their go too, so thanks for nicely pointing this out to me and hopefully you've done that too please to the other car park projects.

Hasta la vista 2015 here well go.........................!

[Scooby]

It's nice to know all that i was not the one that was blocking Fabio's Bus after all i later discovered, despite me removing my car earler than planned on the morning of the 8th of July to make room for him or other equally cool projects, my grass verge continues to still be unoccupied in the corner of the car park, thanks to all those who helped in the process and chose to ignore my completion date that i originally requested for it to be for the 31st of August in my 28th of June post and also those who chose to ignore Mark Stewards post on the 1st of July where members neither agreed nor objected Mark's chosen date but chose to ignore or demand me to offer my project completion a month earlier for the 31st of July and to accuse me for not stating this.

On Saturday, June 28, 2014 11:31:50 AM UTC+1, Scooby wrote:

This Classic Car Project did not arrive to the space on the 23rd of April as Mentar nicely pointed out, that was the date when i asked the mailing list for permission, i can be seen working on this project quite often and no ones said to me, asked, of left any note on my project regarding this matter of urgency, i'm not using the space as storeage so don't understand why all the above persons are so concerned about my completion date when they have seen me at the space recently and i would of been more than happy to of updated them and the mailing list if they'd asked me in person, i did also mention it already in my first post for around May-July, if it's an exact date you'll need then can i call it the 31st of August please? to be on the safe side, and thank you all.

[Monty]

Why do you keep referring to the grass verge as yours? Is this intended to be flamebait[1]? If so, I'd like to remind you of the Code of Conduct[2] which states that public trolling is never appropriate.

[1] - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flamebait
[2] - https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Code_of_Conduct

[Steve Todd]

The problems were:

1) you hadn't committed to an end date when you made the request for space. If you'd asked for a specific amount of time up front, possible with an extension, there wouldn't have been all the arguing.

2) even allowing for the correct starting time you would have had over 3 months of time in the yard, where space is limited (4 months if the August date was allowed).  

3) the dates are granted by consensus, not just one person's offer. When pushed for an end date you asked for 31st august. The final consensus was 31st July.

The granted end date was nothing to do with making space for the bus. You were the one who threw your teddy out of the pram and removed it early. You are also the one trying to cause bad blood by arguing on this mailing list, and as others have pointed out it isn't your grass verge that you were using.

Regards,

Steve