Debunking "Don't ask the mailing list they just say no"

[Charles Yarnold]

After re reading artag's post on Hamish's thread:

On 7 January 2014 10:44, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:

In addition, it has been common for requests to the mailing list to go unanswered (this has improved recently), and a tendency to say no 

unless a certain protocol is followed. This doesn't encourage people to ask.

I thought this was wrong but wanted to check I took the latest 10 requests to the list (I may have missed one) and apart from Hamish's post not a single one has been refused. Some asked for more info, one received little response (but it was a "I bought a boat, please work on it for free :D" post).

Its worth pointing out that even for the project storage request part of Hamish's thread had just requests for clarification, no refusal.

So please, emailing requests to the list for storage or projects don't normally get shot down in flames, you may even get offers of help!

I'm sure i've missed some bad threads, I'm not saying everything is perfect, just don't use the defence "if I had posted about it everyone would have said no automatically"

Hugs

Sol

p.s. I don't want to put words into artags mouth, his comment was just a useful quote highlighting this problem

Links to the threads I found:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/storage|sort:date/london-hack-space/mHpWBiEVDAw/jeCx0s_OQpwJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/storage|sort:date/london-hack-space/OLWM7jDjhGk/2egCz7U_AR0J

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/storage|sort:date/london-hack-space/7kbn2US2xW0/lDMaLcnh0nUJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/request|sort:date/london-hack-space/2sJtV367xIo/DkkFPRGv0cQJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/request|sort:date/london-hack-space/Xv3QBha6Y4I/jXkfIQJXttUJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/request|sort:date/london-hack-space/r_mLxkUTH_Q/q7boRwjUSrsJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/request|sort:date/london-hack-space/VgxnWFvqLQg/cn0W_7oLbYMJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/request|sort:date/london-hack-space/aVvvsykE-30/LNtsQPKqTcoJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/request|sort:date/london-hack-space/LmXmOhbLong/cHd58h27saYJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/67QFdYC22Ps

[Adrian Godwin]

Thanks for looking into it. It used to be the case that people would ask something and there'd be no answer (because nobody felt like giving permission). As I say, this has improved recently, with 2 or 3 people tending to say yes, so at least the impression people get is that it's OK, rather than unknown.

But I still have the feeling that unless you're careful to specify how much space, when it will arrive, when it will leave etc. and have a pleading attitude, you'll get a hostile reply.

I'm pleased to hear this is often not the case. Perhaps that impression has been formed in the past and it's no longer true. But we do, perhaps, still have to encourage people to believe it - to some extent, the damage is already done.

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[Akki]

On Wednesday, 8 January 2014 20:41:37 UTC, artg...@googlemail.com wrote:

But I still have the feeling that unless you're careful to specify how much space, when it will arrive, when it will leave etc. and have a pleading attitude, you'll get a hostile reply.

 https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules
"Larger/more items may be allowed, but please note that space is limited. You must email the mailing list first, and items should be clearly labelled as yours, and with the date they will be removed by. (We have Do Not Hack stickers in the office area on the ground floor.)"

I'm sorry but if you're not specifying space, when it'll arrive, when it'll leave, etc. you're not really following the rules.

In which case, some people might be a bit pissy because they actually follow the rules rather than leave stuff around for unknown amounts of time and abuse the hackspace rules. Why have rules if no one follows them, etc?

~Akki

[Adrian Godwin]

Quite right.

But it's the hostility that I find objectionable.

--

[Akki]

Well that's a bit more reasonable to object to. Your previous objections read differently to me (sorry).

I'm sorry if we've gotten burned in the past with projects that don't follow the rules and hang around like a bad hacker smell for months on end (helllooo trebuchet which was repeatedly told to be moved. and said it was going. and going. and going. and never went. for months and months on end)

It's fine to remind people to be more polite but over all i don't think there's a huge amount of "negativity" towards projects in general. Only to the way they're managed.

[Adrian Godwin]

It's kind of understandable when we've had things like the trebuchet. But that wasn't the same person. We need to remember it's their first offence (mostly) and be helpful rather than let loose all the irritation that's built up over the last 20 abusers.

[Charles Yarnold]

Yes, I agree it hasn't been handled well in the past, its part of the reason I didn't question your comment on first reading, it was only after reading over the thread a second time did I think about how it's been lately and look into it.

Can you give examples of when not following the protocol has been handled badly? I don't ask this in a rhetorical sense, as I know I tend to be one of the voices that will ask for more info if a request is too vague. It's only ever ment to help clarify so if lots being taken otherwise I would like to improve that myself and call others out on it.

Your also right that bad impressions take a while to fade, hopefully time will help mend this :-)

Sol

[Charles Yarnold]

s/rhetorical/hostile/

[Adrian Godwin]

I haven't been as thorough as you, but here's a few examples. I should emphasise that  all the people are quite right, and possibly even think they're being polite.

But to me, and I think to someone new to the space, they seem like they're jumping down the OP's throat. A lot of it is certainly 'oh no, not again'. But it's not 'again' for that person - the plastic sheet one in particular seems to have tried hard to be reasonable and helpful but still got the 'ask first' treatment.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/_0NBn9qLbZ0

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/plastic/london-hack-space/yRKfg1xRBow/ssHghHaQy5oJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/smoker/london-hack-space/w8cdW1ABwUc/vsyCw5umVFkJ

[Henry Sands]

I think I was pretty polite in telling Jacob about our rules on storing large items.

The "ask first" treatment is because it is in our rules that every member agrees to follow upon joining the hackspace, ignoring the rules in favour of saving someone's feelings is moronic, politely informing them of the rules is the correct thing to do.

[Adrian Godwin]

But 'polite' isn't enough. For many of these new members, this is their first contact with the hackspace after a tour, and they're excited about starting their project.

It doesn't just need polite, it needs friendly.  Because polite comes over as 'I shouldn't have to tell you this, you moron'.

[Clare Greenhalgh]

I think that people have differing ways of being friendly as they do of being polite.
We do have all the rules about what is and is not allowed, and I think a polite note at least saying why something cannit happen, fit in or is a bad idea for whatever reason is good. Remember some people would think it is friendly too.
It is all a great deal more friendly than it used to be and we should encourage the polite/friendly responses.... it is all so much nicer than the negative ones there used to be!

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Henry did the right thing by letting them know they are breaking the rules. The problem is that people ignore the rules, which are almost always mentioned during the tours. Now I think part of it is that they don't take note of them and we may want to look into making sure that prospective members are clearly communicated the rules that they have to follow (tick of every rule during registration?). Of-course some people probably choose to ignore the rules and I'm not sure what can be done to combat that short off formal warnings.

[Henry Sands]

How can polite not be enough?, you can't make people special cases just because they're new, all of the mails I've seen where people have said they've left stuff people have gone "please ask beforehand in future" not "remove that from the space you never asked first"

[Charles Yarnold]

Ah yes, while I think those are polite I do notice that in 2 of the 3 the OP didn't respond to the replies, will take a look at their email receiving settings out of interest.

Not to put this all onto artag, can anyone suggest a better way of responding to these incidents? I think "live and let live" won't help, on the other hand not sure if a template email (to make sure reaction and tone are right) would come over as too impersonal...

[Aden]

From my observations it's quite the opposite, there are too many "yes men" agreeing to requests that are quite unreasonable. I just can't be bothered to reply "no" to every post anymore as then I seem like the bad person.

[Paul Randle-Jolliffe]

I had a difficult one so I just did not bother

[Alex Pounds]

On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 04:11:51PM -0800, Henry Sands wrote:
> How can polite not be enough?, you can't make people special cases just
> because they're new

The Hackspace runs under a fairly unusual system - one most people haven't
encountered more. This is increasingly true as our membership expands
beyond the hacker community. It's not about special cases; it's about
understanding that people are trying something new, and are out of their
comfort zone, and are doing their best. So we should be extra
understanding if they don't get it right first time.

--
Alex Pounds
Web Developer & Photographer

http://alexpounds.com/ | http://ethicsgirls.com/

[SamLR]

I would say a more friendly but equally 'corrective' email might look more like:

on 6 June 6 24:42, Sam on t'board <s...@crycry.com> wrote:

Hi! 

That looks interesting and thank you for alerting us as to what's going on. In future can you please tell the list before you order things though? We ask that big projects are ok-d with the space before they start, not once you've ordered the stuff. Sorry if this seems harsh but with 800+ members space is at a premium. 

Good luck with the project and I look forward to see what happens with it

S

I think there's a good point that polite != friendly (often the opposite). I'm not claiming that all interactions have to be like the example above (I nearly gagged writing it) but pure politeness is often just as off-putting as an out right troll. It's probably worth remembering: if you find yourself grinding your teeth in annoyance and bracing to unleash frozen politeness on some unsuspecting newb take a deep breath and go outside.

@aden, how are there too many 'yes men'? do you think we're running out of space already? what's wrong with the default being to approve large projects unless there's specific problems with it (and as long as permission is requested before)? 

[Mr Ed]

On Thursday, 9 January 2014 00:51:11 UTC, ad...@aden.org.uk wrote:

From my observations it's quite the opposite, there are too many "yes men" agreeing to requests that are quite unreasonable. I just can't be bothered to reply "no" to every post anymore as then I seem like the bad person.

Is there much of that? The agreed to requests seem pretty reasonable to me. Which requests do you think shouldn't have been agreed to?

-MrEd

 

[Paul Randle-Jolliffe]

I really have not worked out how it works

Is this a

1. Consensus system (IE all must agree)

2. Majority System (IE count all those in favour once you have addressed any key issues)

3. Mobocracy (IE whoever has the loudest aye or nay rules)

4. Do what you want under the radar

IE how much weight does one give to what the people on the list says, or do you even have to? It does seem that some do what they want in quite moderate ways and there is little of any consequence. 

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[Mr Ed]

Hm. OK.

Allow me to rephrase:

which requests you consider unreasonable get lots of positive responses from "yes men".

As to your point: I have no idea as to what counts as sufficient permission.

-MrEd

[Charles Yarnold]

Whoa, this is going to throw this thread right off topic, can you move it to its own thread? Not saying it isn't connected, or that it shouldn't be discussed but thats likely to derail this thread for little benefit.

[Paul Randle-Jolliffe]

Im sorry I thought it was right on topic

[David Murphy]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/ask/london-hack-space/-CArCXwKEhQ/afnpn4v9VMMJ
Someone proposes an "insanity hackathon" for when it's a crazy idea that just might work.
Lots of people latching on to the word "insanity" as if it was an attack on people with mental health problems.
Which would be less sad if some of the the people latching on and attacking her weren't weren't also prone to constantly use the term in everyday speech themselves.
Low point:
"I have to say I'm pretty uncomfortable with an event that appears to be _exactly_ what everybody already does in the space"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/ask/london-hack-space/bdbgp9eN9Zg/overview
Someone writes on the laser cutter in wipable dry erase marker.
low point:
"They should be banned from the space"

Lots and lots of posts where someone asks to store a project or asks about doing something and the reply is just someone posting
"no"
and absolutely nothing else though thankfully that seems to have stopped in recent months.

I remember some posts from a while back asking about storing projects where people said something like

"I want to build xyz, I'll store it under the desk if that's ok"

who were immediately jumped on because it wasn't phrased as a grovelling enough request in the view of the repliers.

apparently it's not good enough to merely check with people that it's ok. it must be phrased in exactly the correct way or snotty replies will follow.

I think the mailing list has got a lot better recently though. there was about a 6 month period where the mailing list was getting really toxic.
not in terms of people swearing or anything silly like that but rather with people just being incredibly hostile in the most polite and stilted way.

[Monty]

Care to point out the attacking? All I see is a discussion against using the term insane. :/

[Akki]

On Friday, 10 January 2014 00:46:23 UTC, David wrote:

low point:
"They should be banned from the space

dead horse already flogged to death over this one. see previous ML posts. 

"I want to build xyz, I'll store it under the desk if that's ok"

who were immediately jumped on because it wasn't phrased as a grovelling enough request in the view of the repliers.

apparently it's not good enough to merely check with people that it's ok. it must be phrased in exactly the correct way or snotty replies will follow.

Did it have an end date? Most projects seem to leave this out. And it's specifically in the rules of the Hackspace and on the (usually not available, due to overuse, like on members boxes which is redundant) DNH stickers to give a removal date. Hackspace is temporary storage for projects not an means to an end for massive projects no one can take home at the end of the day.

Requests get testy if not given enough time or if they're like "hey i left this" which is, again, against the rules of storage ... email the list *first* is what the rules say.