Lathe authorization needed

[Marcelo]

Hello, I need to get authorization to use the lathe. I am happy to show you I can use it. I live quite far so I will appreciate to know when to come to meet any of the people who can grant me permission.

Thanks
Regards

Marcelo

[oliver greenaway]

Me too, so I can continue with the Britannia (crystal palace) lathe restoration.

Oliver

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Now that we have 3-in-1 ACNoded can those who have experience in using
the lathe put together a training session with, perhaps, a test of
sorts? Otherwise we have a sizeable piece of machinery that only very
few people are allowed to use and a quite few other people who really
want to use it but can't.

Thanks
Eugene/Mentar

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[James Fleming]

They keep talking about this machine when presenting the space to prospective members when they know very well that they are not even trying to gather to discuss how they are going to run the training. VERY BAD

[Marcelo]

No news at all about this, I think they don't really care. I took my lathe tools to the space, thinking that it will be resolved quicky, how naive I was!. That is a difficult task for me, having a bad back and no means of transport while I live far away. 

[Russ Garrett]

On 26 July 2013 15:48, Marcelo <cds...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> No news at all about this, I think they don't really care.

It's not that we don't care, Marcelo, it's that we are all volunteers
and we don't necessarily have time to spend on this.

Frankly, I am also a bit scared about allowing people to use the
lathe, which is a dangerous tool, and being found liable if they
injure themselves. (This is in addition to the fact that I still don't
have the rights to add other people to the acnode.)

I am extremely busy with my day job currently, but this will change
from next month. I would really like to discuss lathe training with
someone who has a more formal machining background (I am mostly
self-taught). I'd like to suggest we talk about lathe training on the
evening of Tuesday August 6th.

Cheers,

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Russ Garrett]

On 26 July 2013 15:43, James Fleming <sales.worl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They keep talking about this machine when presenting the space to
> prospective members when they know very well that they are not even trying
> to gather to discuss how they are going to run the training. VERY BAD

As I said in my previous email, this is simply false.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[oliver greenaway]

I'm sure this wasn't the intention or the actuality, but it may have appeared that way to members who don't know/see what is being considered.

Regarding your worries about liability i agree this is an issue, I have wondered myself how happy i would be training people, were i to get access.  Maybe we should make people sign a disclaimer stating they are able to opperate the machinery safly and the space/individual trainers won't get the blame if something goes wrong.  Don't know how much value that would have in reality/law though.  Or maybe a process of allowing access to the smaller lathes first then progressing to the big one... not that we have any small ones working.  And i need access to make one work! Doh!

Will try to come along to 6th, similar issues will need to be addressed for the Britannia lathe.

Oliver

[Russ Garrett]

On 26 July 2013 17:53, oliver greenaway <o.gre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe we should make people sign a disclaimer stating they are able to
> opperate the machinery safly and the space/individual trainers won't get the
> blame if something goes wrong. Don't know how much value that would have in
> reality/law though.

Liability waivers are invalid under UK law (Unfair Terms of Consumer
Contracts Regulations 1999).

The practical upshot of this is that you're only safe against
liability if you've made people adequately aware of the risks. (Which
is pretty sensible when you come to think of it.)

The problem is that I don't really have enough experience of training
people on this equipment to know what the best way is to inform people
of the risks. And indeed which risks I'm forgetting to tell people
about because I think they're obvious.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Marcelo, that sort-off attitude contributes to people not wanting to bother helping as they would have to deal with you and that dismissive tone.

Since you said you have some experience yourself you could have helped by asking other workshops/companies on how they do their lathe training, ideally the same sort of machine. It could be that what we need to do is to get one such person to guide us through a training session, that we can build upon and adapt to our situation. That's just one example how you can constructive instead of moaning about the situation.

Eugene

--

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Oh and Russ you should be a maintainer on the 3-in-1, along with Artag and Ian.

As I've started a new 2 weeks ago aswell I've not had the time to build out a web iface to the acserver but the minimum viable "product" is there. I'll leave it to Sol how to add people.

Eugene

[Maria A]

James is totally right. Anyone know that doing a search on the web will get you results like the following, which should be more than enough to make users aware:

http://www.liv.ac.uk/safety/work_area_hazards/workshops/lathes/

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/safety_haz/metalworking/lathes.html

http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/cenlath1.html

[Adrian Godwin]

I'm not too concerned about liability issues : it's impossible to have training that will cover every possible harm that you can do to yourself, and there are a few basic safety rules that, if followed strictly, will keep you pretty safe. There are times they have to be broken but I expect you to ask if you think that's necessary.

What does concern me is the creativity some members have shown in abusing and breaking other tools. It often seems to me that the only way to be sure someone properly respects a tool is when they had to pay for it. Common ownership doesn't seem to give the right attitude.

So what I'm looking for mostly is:

Proper respect for safety rules

An attitude of 'If I'm unsure, I'll ask'

No impatience

A desire to learn carefully, however long that takes
An interest in finding out more through research, not by just trying it

I've been down as a trainer for a long while, and have only ever been contacted once. It may be that this is a result of my fairly intermittent and unscheduled visits to the hackspace, but I get the impression it's more that potential users have no idea of what training involves and imagine it's a short talk, as with the laser cutter.  When they can't just join a regular session, they give up.  do hope the person I trained wasn't one of those who subsequently misused it : maybe the ACNode system will help to ensure that will be detected in the future.

[Alexander Wright]

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Perhaps, in addition to the training/induction (in which i'm sure the
risks would be described verbally) we should have a printout to hand
to all authorised lathe users. I wonder if there's anyone around the
space who works in a professional workshop for a living and has
experience in writing risk assessments for this sort of thing?
Hopefully that printout will give us some sort of cover if there is an
issue - we can prove what we did tell them and avoid any "they never
told me not to stick my fingers in the gears!"

Alec
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[invent_or]

No, Russ is totally right on this. Simply saying "There's loads of stuff online about lathe safety" would get you thrown in jail or seriously fined if there was a serious accident.

Remember, it isn't just you who can get hurt, either. I've a friend who was nearly killed when an industrial lathe he wasn't using threw the chuck key at him and put him in hospital for months when someone else messed up.

The liability side of things is huge. Even if you swore blind you wouldn't sue, and even if you didn't, your life insurance company likely would, to recover the money they had to pay out when they had to - and that's not even just for death, it would apply for personal accident claims too.

So yes, you have to get trained and signed off.

N

[Adrian Godwin]

Taking the chuck key out is very basic safety, it would be first on every trainers list.

There are many more things that are less obvious and some that can't even be predicted. If we're truly liable for the actions of anyone using it, then we may as well scrap it as well as half the rest of the workshop equipment.

[Adrian Godwin]

it's interesting that Cambridge Makespace (who tend to have a much more strict idea of liabilty and insurance than we do, because of their university connections) run a group course that takes a couple of hours.

I'd consider this a bare minimum for one-on-one, but presumably it satisfies their safety requirements.

http://wiki.makespace.org/Equipment/Lathe/Training

[Billy]

We need to remember that the original idea behind the invention of Health & Safety issues was making sure that you didn't die.

All of the stuff that has added to this system in later years, was aimed at the Hot Potato theory of economics. Which is not what we are about...

What we should be trying to achieve is excellence in how we work. Learning good practise and an safe way of doing things, is only one part of the picture.

What we should be aiming for is finding elegant, efficient solutions, that involve the least energy cost, but that's a bigger side-track than i am willing to follow right now...

MIT have an excellent series of video lectures. http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos While three of them are specific to the lathe, and a couple specifically for the milling machine, The rest of them covers a good range of hand tools, and as part of that, they cover safely using a workshop that is shared.

They're a simple set of basic techniques and good practise.

[QuantumSand]

I'm interested in getting training for this. If anyone is offering, I'd be glad to buy them a couple of beers or something, and pretty much free most days.

I've not started any projects but a few of my initial projects will need a lathe so I'd be very grateful.

[Ian Henderson]

I had a look at the 3 in 1 last week

In my view it's not really in a state to open it up to anyone other than experienced current users. Anyone that is not familiar with it is likely to cause further damage to it and possibly themselves.

The main problem at the moment is a lack of stability on the cross-slide caused by damage to the gib adjustment screws

It can just about be used for light work on soft materials if great care is used, but as Steve Kelly has pointed out in another thread, it really needs a complete strip down and rebuild. I'll try and find a few hours later this week to see if a temporary tweak will result in some improvement. 

The LHS tradition of using equipment, irrespective of underlying problems, and then breaking the equipment is something that I don't want to see happen to the 3 in 1    

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

A suggestion:
Training information should allways cover the same items as it's always
the same machine. We could produce a training video for people wanting
to use the machine and just test they've absorbed the knowledge with a
test to authorise use.

On 28/07/2013 21:19, invent_or wrote:
> No, Russ is totally right on this. Simply saying "There's loads of stuff
> online about lathe safety" would get you thrown in jail or seriously
> fined if there was a serious accident.
>
> Remember, it isn't just you who can get hurt, either. I've a friend who

> was nearly killed when an industrial lathe/he wasn't using/ threw the
> chuck key at him and put him in hospital for months when/someone else
> messed up/.

>
> The liability side of things is huge. Even if you swore blind you
> wouldn't sue, and even if you didn't, your life insurance company likely
> would, to recover the money they had to pay out when they had to - and
> that's not even just for death, it would apply for personal accident
> claims too.
>
> So yes, you have to get trained and signed off.
>
> N
>
> On Sunday, 28 July 2013 14:56:17 UTC+1, Maria A wrote:
>
> James is totally right. Anyone know that doing a search on the web
> will get you results like the following, which should be more than
> enough to make users aware:
>
> http://www.liv.ac.uk/safety/work_area_hazards/workshops/lathes/

> <http://www.liv.ac.uk/safety/work_area_hazards/workshops/lathes/>
>
> http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/safety_haz/metalworking/lathes.html
> <http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/safety_haz/metalworking/lathes.html>
>
> http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/cenlath1.html

> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.

[Billy]

What about doing a photo manual, or some training video's, for all of the basic maintenance/calibration tasks.

That way people can get an idea what the limits of the machine are.

We've got access to video cameras, and the video editing equipment.

And Hamish knows how to deal with film...

[Henry Sands]

Training videos are cool but don't really offer the whole course.

There is also the problem of how to verify if someone has actually watched the video short of shitting down with them and watching it, at which point you might as well do the training the regular way.

[Billy]

Yes, you can't guarantee that people have watched it, or that they've understood it when they did... :))

Creating test projects, or using some of the existing test projects that they use as assessment for apprentices would be an interesting exercise in personally developing your skills.

There was one hackspace i read about where you could make a torch, where the person making it, got to learn how to use the 3d printer, the etching tank, the soldering stations, a little electronics, and you got something useful at the end of the exercise.

[Ian Henderson]

Watching a video does not teach common sense or experience....

Sometimes there is no substitute for training as an apprentice and learning what looks and sounds and feels correct, rather than blundering on and causing further damage

It may be a bit old fashioned, but that's how I was trained and it seemed to work pretty well?

Ian

[James Fleming]

I bet anyone that there will be no training available in the next 3 months

El martes, 23 de julio de 2013 19:21:12 UTC+1, Marcelo escribió:

[tgreer]

James

This isn't productive... nor will it gain you any favours with gaining access to the tools. Remember, people here are volunteers, they have no need to do anything for you.

[chrisbob12]

How much are you prepared to bet?

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

James what tools are you maintaining? How do you give the training for them? Since judging from your insightful comments you seem to have a wealth of experience!

Really though, the idea of rewarding people for doing training and/or maintaining equipment is a good one! Want to use a tool? Don't have the time/patience to repair it? Pledge money for it to be repaired! Sort of like a reward.

On 5 August 2013 01:14, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:

How much are you prepared to bet?

[Russ Garrett]

Hi James,

It sounds like Hackspace isn't a great fit for your needs - I'd recommend you direct your search for a lathe elsewhere. Good luck.

Cheers,

Russ

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[Russ Garrett]

Hi James,

It sounds like Hackspace isn't a great fit for your needs - I'd recommend you direct your search for a lathe elsewhere. Good luck.

Cheers,

Russ

On Sunday, 4 August 2013, James Fleming wrote:

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[Russ Garrett]

On 26 July 2013 16:06, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd like to suggest we talk about lathe training on the
> evening of Tuesday August 6th.

I'm aware that I didn't publicise this particularly heavily, but when
I had a wander around at 20:30 last night I didn't see anyone who
wanted to talk about lathe training.

Someone needs to take the lead on this. I don't have enough time to
handle this myself, and James is at least correct that it really sucks
that the lathe is basically unusable.

Who is going to do this?

--
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ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Adrian Godwin]

Note that ORGANISING training is a management task. It doesn't need to be someone with lathe skills. Anyone can volunteer.

[Patrick Dent]

Hi all; I'm slightly saddened by the problems that Hackspace seems to be having with the lathe authorisation and training programs. One of the reasons I joined the Hackspace (as well as to just have fun with like-minded people) was the need to use the lathe to drill out some shaft-holes in some high-rpm sprockets. All of my attempts to do so with the pillar drill have understandably been various degrees of off-centre.

I'd love to be told that a training/authorising session is in the works in the near future because without it, my electric bicycle project cannot be completed. Although saying that, there are other parts I will be able to work on once I have the components.
If anyone can tell me how I can accurately drill centred holes in some small sprockets without the lathe, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Patrick 

[Adrian Godwin]

I don't think there will be a 'session' as such,  and I can't see anyone running a complete training course unless we pay for a teacher. The right thing to do, I think, is to contact one of the listed trainers and ask them to help with your job.

--

[Seri Al-Najjar]

If the welding course is a success then I plan on arranging a lathe one as well, but, we are looking at about 3 months away...

[Patrick Dent]

I wasn't thinking about a 'course' as such - I meant a 'session' really to prove that you can use it without maiming yourself.
Once you've proved that you're not going to be a health hazard, you can look up more advanced techniques afterwards.
And btw, I've thought of how to do the holes without the lathe:

1. drill two holes of different diameters concentrically to different depths in a block of wood(i.e. small hole then use that to drill a wider, shallower second hole)
   
2. put the sprocket into a vice
3. place the larger of the two holes onto the sprocket and the smaller hole (the diameter of the shaft) should be centred
4. line it up and drill down this smaller hole

Sound alright to you?

[Seri Al-Najjar]

I have to admit to not having much knowledge of the finer points of using a lathe other than the basic concepts.

That said, I'm probably being stupid but... how would you put the larger of the holes onto the sprocket. Do you mean place the sprocket into the larger hole and then use the smaller hole from the other side to align the drill bit with the centre?

Depending on what degree of accuracy you want, then I see no reason why this wouldn't work. I'm sure you've already thought of this, but, why not mark up the centre of the sprocket and then use a centre punch to mark the drill point / ensure that the bit won't slip?

[Patrick Dent]

Yeah, that's what I meant; I worded it that way because the part that would be clamped would be the sprocket to be drilled, not the guide. (and my grammar is sometimes quite bad due to some traits of Asperger's)
But yeah, I had thought of marking the centre but a previous attempt was inaccurate enough that it was very slightly off-centre and vibrated a fair bit at 4400rpm.

[Paul Randle-Jolliffe]

its a long time since i used a lathe,  circa 1900 and frozen to death at RHS making hole punches  

Might I suggest that a combination might be used as follows so it can be done faster or slower as people wish.

1. Videos

2. Basic Training

3.1st use multiple choice test and some basic supervision (for a very short period)

this breaks it down a bit put less reliance and all the weight on a trainer to do all and would cover H&S tick boxes and usage concerns and adds a bit of quality control

--

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Land Line: +44 (0) 207 193 9991
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Fax: +44 (0) 871 266 8130

 

[Seri Al-Najjar]

I would worry that the tolerances of using the wood approach could still cause vibration (possibly worse if using softwood, it might be mitigated if using a very dense hardwood such as ironwood).

Again, I'm not speaking from any point of knowledge, just personal limited experience...

When you used the drill approach, did you use a centre punch to indent the centre spot first? Also, did you use a pillar drill with a round drill bit to to make the hole? I would have thought that using a very fine mechanical pencil to very accurately mark the centre spot (callipers to help define the centre spot?) that this would be okay...

[Patrick Dent]

I have a small bit of spare 1/4" aluminium plate I can use as my guide I suppose. could bolt two pieces together, drill the small hole through both, then drill out the second one bigger then reattach it.

[Edward Rosten]

I'd like to express my interest in getting authorized on the 3 in 1 if possible.

I'm quite rusty but I have been trained on, and used in anger much larger machine lathes.


-Ed

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Please add yourself to the list at http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Lathe_Training

Not only is it likely to speed things up if there's noted demand for it, it will lower the likelyhood of missing the training when it does occur

Thanks

--

[Patrick Dent]

I could really do with use of the lathe right now; trying to make a 19mm hole through a piece of aluminium rod over an inch thick to make a large sprocket hub.
I've managed to do a series of increasingly large holes up to about 16mm in this piece but the pillar drill finally cannot cope even with the most gentle of pressing.
I've tried manually turning the lathe chuck with the piece in place and the drill bit in the tailstock with signs of success.

If anyone has lathe clearance and will be around sometime tomorrow evening, could they let me know? Thanks. I won't pester you beyond this one task, I promise!

[Billy]

I'll be in for the 3d printer training, but can help you otherwise.

I have to say, that while i'm qualified and have a key, i haven't used the big lathe on my own yet. More used to the mini-lathe.

Russ should be around tomorrow evening though.

[Ian Henderson]

Patrick

I may be able to help. Are you coming over on Monday or Tuesday?

If you let me know an approximate time, I'll try and be there.

I'm an authoriser for the 3in1

Ian

[Patrick Dent]

I'll be coming down this evening from about 7-8pm. Hopefully I can do some basic facing and a little bit of diameter-reduction (turning?) as well, to fit this hub to the sprocket properly. Thanks!

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[Ian Henderson]

I'll aim to be there for about 7

I'll be wearing a Respro reflective safety waistcoat and blue jeans

Ian

[invent_or]

Hopefully this is sorted now.

For what it is worth, don't try and do a 19mm hole with a 19mm drillbit, if you want any sort of accuracy. The hole you will get will be triangular rather than a nice smooth round, and your bit of metal will likely be ruined.

Of course, the lathe offers two easy ways to make a decent 19mm hole that is accurately centred. Use the tailstock on the big blue lathe. Swap it out, then put in a big 19mm Morse tapered drillbit. Turn the handle while the lathe is running and it will drill you a nice hole. That's one way, and will be better than the drill press. The other is to turn the metal and use a lathe tool to cut it to size. This is far more difficult (though still not very hard once you know the basics of a lathe) and the most challenging part is getting the hole size accurate at 19mm without a DRO. One way to ensure you are spot on would be to buy (or borrow) a 19mm ball bearing. This will be very accurate compared to a set of callipers, if that's all you've got access to! Even the lowest grade (1000) will be good to 5 thou (i.e. better than your ability), but if you buy one that is grade 25 or better you'll be good to less than a tenth. Just make sure there's a through hole so you can push it back out afterwards!

(If that seems esoteric, it's really not - ball bearings are very accurately made in bulk, and you buy sets of them for checking micrometres and the like for accuracy, as they are also easy to measure and hard to mangle, and even harder to mangle without it being obvious to the eye.)

N

[Edward Rosten]

On Tuesday, 27 August 2013 14:33:02 UTC+1, Ian Henderson wrote:

Are you doing authorizations this evening? If so, I'll come by.

-Ed
 

[Ian Henderson]

Ed

I'll probably be over on Monday or Tuesday next week

Please be aware that only the most basic functions are currently working. No clutch, gears or automatic feed.

What are you planning to make?

Ian

[Edward Rosten]

Nothing planned specifically, so it's not remotely time critical. It's a useful machine to have around though, so I would like to get to know the machine, and hopefully to help with maintenance at some point in the future when I know it better.

Does the mill work to the same extent as the lathe?

-Ed



 

Ian

[Ian Henderson]

I haven't tested the mill recently but I suspect the gears aren't working very well so the range of speeds will be limited

Ian

[Liam Lynch]

If presision is important to you then I have access to a much better lathe. Its in the Finsbury Park area and I will be with it on Saterday (today). If you want email me direct on 'dickhe...@gmail.com'

Liam

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 1:46:06 AM UTC+1, Patrick Dent wrote: