Re: Mini-doc proposal

[Michael Trew]

hi George -- I hope you and Leo are both well -- it was great to meet
you both when you came to the space the other day

everyone seems a bit unclear at the moment about whether there’s still
a “press embargo”, but like Phil was saying it shouldn’t be a problem
if you just film me in the workshop when I’m making the next
prototypes for my invention (pouring urethane rubber into moulds / 3d-
printing / welding)

I definitely won’t mention the Hackspace when I’m being filmed, unless
everyone else thinks the publicity could help to raise funds for
moving to the new space?!?


On Jan 30, 3:39 pm, George Webster <webstergeor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm a freelance journalist and short-doc film-maker - nice to meet you. CNN
> International (based in London) are putting together an online feature
> about the rise and significance of hacker spaces, and I've
> been commissioned to make a short, introductory doc, giving a glimpse of
> the day-to-day activities and general maker culture. If you guys wouldn't
> mind, it'd be great to come and spend half a day or so at the London
> Hackspace, soaking up the atmosphere, shooting some of the goings on etc.
>
> Is this something that could be arranged? I imagine you get a fair few
> requests of this nature and are probably keen not to have the place
> cluttered up with journalists where possible, so I assure you we (me and my
> friend Leo) would be very discreet and polite.
>
> Let me know what you think or if you've any queries / reservations about
> the doc. Here is a link to something else we've done for CNN along similar
> lines, just to give a sense of the tone we're aiming for:
> cnn.com/2012/03/30/world/europe/farm-shop-london-sustainable-agriculture/index.html
>
> All the best,
>
> George

[Martin Dittus]

Thanks for getting in touch George!

Let me start by establishing some context, I don't know how much people already told you.

First off, it may take us a while to make such a decision, and this will entail a discussion by members on this list; I'm very happy that you made the first step here to kick this off. There's no single person that can/wants to sign off on such a proposal, there is a wide range of perspectives among our members, and before everything else (including the prospect of being subject of what looks like a very nice public documentary) our primary concern lies with our members.

Regarding the practicality of filming and taking photos in the space, note that not every one of our members will appreciate to be on camera (we've had big internal debates about this); and we do want to take people's concerns seriously. I don't know if anyone has already shown you this:
http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Guides/Filming_in_the_space

Regarding public exposure in general, at the moment we're balancing two conflicting needs: maintaining good community relations under large growth; and a potentially upcoming move to a larger space which we may want to promote.

We've been trying to grow slowly over the last year and have stopped talking to press; we only started out in 2009 and already have 600 members who share a relatively small amount of space. You can imagine that this is a challenge for such a young community; we're concerned whether we will still be able to deal with a large flood of new members when everyone around them is also new. It can take a lot of time to become familiar with the needs and expectations of an organisation like this. Additionally we're simply running out of work and storage space.

That said, once we (hopefully) moved sometime this summer we will have much more space available, which will solve many practical problems for us but; and we may be quite interested in promoting it.

m.

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[David Murphy]

I'd be in favor of this.

 

it's close enough to the move that we'd probably want to start courting attention again.

short version of the context: we've been so short of space that we've avoided membership drives but we're still growing remarkably fast.

Depending on the time line we may be moving in the next couple of months so we may be taking everthing apart and moving it at the time.

If you're planning on dropping in I suggest a tuesday evening.

 

You're free to drop in without a camera but as others have mentioned filming, particularly commercial, is a little more restricted so see if anyone objects to that here.

tuesdays the best day as people expect to be asked about their projects on the open night. it's also when there's the most people where. for the full experience bring along any ideas for things you'd like to make, build or create and chat to people about it.

[Ndlovu]

There has been quite a bit of filming in the space recently. I have been asked by randoms at leat twice in the last month if I mind being photographed and or filmed 

there was a posting wher there was filming on the weekend 

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/london-hack-space/zKbtoRy9xP4/discussion

we should be even handed in this in my view 

or is it simply a case of ask and be dammed as then you are stuck in a quagmire of debate, I think there is a famous quote about this 

[Charles Yarnold]

On 5 March 2013 16:43, Ndlovu <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote: 

there was a posting wher there was filming on the weekend 

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/london-hack-space/zKbtoRy9xP4/discussion

we should be even handed in this in my view 

or is it simply a case of ask and be dammed as then you are stuck in a quagmire of debate, I think there is a famous quote about this 

I think your link proves that this is not the case...

[Ndlovu]

The quote I wanted # From a truly Great General and Former Secetary of State Colin Powell

You know the expression, "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission."  Well,

it's true.  Good leaders don't wait for official blessing to try things out.  They're

prudent, not reckless.  But they also realize a fact of life in most organizations:

if you ask enough people for permission, you'll inevitably come up against

someone who believes his job is to say "no."  So the moral is, don't ask.  Less

effective middle managers endorsed the sentiment, "If I haven't explicitly been

told 'yes,' I can't do it," whereas the good ones believed, "If I haven't explicitly

been told 'no,' I can."  There's a world of difference between these two points

of view.

[Martin Dittus]

Sorry what's you point? Atm you're derailing the discussion.

I don't think the situations are comparable: Charles' email made it clear that this was non-commercial, and would only include people who were happy to be on camera.

Our main concerns are about people's privacy, and with filming for larger audiences.

m.

[Ndlovu]

I don't believe I am at all derailing the discussion, and like all members believe I should be heard 

There have been several people filming in the space over the last month the link is but one of them.

What is the definition of commercial ? in this context. FROM THE POST 

[Adrian Godwin]

The film-maker asked politely and with plenty of notice (unlike some
journalist a few days ago, who was rightly refused). Martin replied
with a statement of our usual policy. You provided an example of
another well-managed and non-disruptive recent occasion, which would
presumably be similar.

Where is the the problem ?

[Ndlovu]

I don't believe I am at all derailing the discussion, such a statement from a trustee, I believe is poor conduct and a weak attempt to close down a conversation and like all members believe I should be heard, if you want to take this element offline you are welcome you have riled me, 

There have been several people filming in the space over the last month the link is but one of them!.

What is the definition of commercial ? in this context. FROM THE POST THAT started this thread I don't believe money is being paid or received = is there a clear and consistent definition or does it depend on who you are  

As far as privacy is concerned the event that we are comparing this too notification and or an option to be excluded were fine what is the difference

The space is a great initiative and place however I personally don't like the "it depends on who you are" standard at the space and that is what I am standing up against, I have no vested interest in this apart from driving for fairness i.e a consistent,  even handed and fair approach 

[Ndlovu]

artag 

My issue is fairness and a consistent approach

There has been to my knowlege

one told rather than ask that happened

one ask and refusal

and two unknown just doing it 

I don't believe this is fir or right at all

privacy should be respected absolutely agree

commercial - define it

large audience - define it (and the unknows) 

for example

compare and contrast this with the cartoon in private eye (which most people I spoke to were thrilled about)  = same thing as what is being asked here but a different medium

[Adrian Godwin]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Ndlovu <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:
> artag
>
> My issue is fairness and a consistent approach

A reasonable aim.

But not one that wants to be too bound up in rules. Inevitably, there
are more circumstances to be consdered than anyone would want to plan
in advance.

>
> There has been to my knowlege
> one told rather than ask that happened

If that's the one you referenced earlier, from Charles : I can't
really see a problem. Sure, it wasn't phrased as a request. SInce
there's no person tasked with answering such requests and no
possibility of getting a response from every member, I think 3 day's
notice, explanation that it was Charles he was filming (not the space
in general) and an explicit note that only people who wished to be
included would be filmed is pretty reasonable. Unsurprisingly, there
were no objections.

How could that have been done more fairly ?

> one ask and refusal

The occasion I heard about was someone requesting instant access via
some social media channel. It was peremptory and, when it didn't get
approval, rude. It would have been difficult to do in accordance with
the guidelines Martin posted and the journalist's attitude made it
unlikely anyone in the space would be interested in trying to make it
happen.

That could have been done better .. by the journalist.

> and two unknown just doing it
>
> I don't believe this is fir or right at all

'two unknown just doing it' would be a problem. However, there's been
no previous reference to that here and I've got no knowledge of it so
I'm not going to comment. More information welcome, but I don't see
how it affects the subject of THIS thread which is apparently being
handled correctly.

>
> privacy should be respected absolutely agree
> commercial - define it
> large audience - define it (and the unknows)
>
> for example
>
> compare and contrast this with the cartoon in private eye (which most people
> I spoke to were thrilled about) = same thing as what is being asked here
> but a different medium
>

The main reason for the rules as they exist is that at one point we
were getting a flood of film makers who expected to take over the
space for the convenience of their profit-making ventures. It was very
disruptive and inconvenient. I guess if we had a flood of cartoonists
setting up easels in the space we might be moved to do the same.

I don't think there' s danger of that right now, but thanks for the warning.

This does perhaps illustrate the difficulty of creating rules as a
reaction to problems, but unfortunately that's the way the world goes.
Pre-planning every eventuality and writing adequate rules to cope is
not something many people want to do. We'd rather aim to be fair, as
you ask. I think we're doing that.

-adrian

[David Murphy]

ok, now that that derail is out of the way: does anyone have any actual objection to George Webster's request?

[Ndlovu]

if its Judges the same as the other request it should happen on that basis I dont have a problem and believe it should happen 

The other point as in the link provided my view is we were simply informed in accordance wi the "Colin Powell" doctrine :-)

In the live request which is the case being talked about here a request is made on the list and a lot of jibber jabber results - what constitutive approval or rejection, when is a trustee responding in his personal capacity or representing the board

when is a trustee 

[Monty]

Can you please take this to a new topic/thread. This has no direct relation to the OP's request.

[Ndlovu]

Monty would you mind please explaining .... as all the conversation here in this thread relates to the request for some filming

# what do you mean by the ops request

# what do you want moved to another thread as it all relates to the same subject

if you are able to perhaps you could answer the question raised or respond to the issues raised here (it would be appreciated)

[Monty]

The OP asked if it was ok to film something and so is expecting to see approval or reasons for disapproval of that activity. You, however, seem to be attempting to discuss fair processes, past and present (although, I honestly can't be entirely certain what you're attempting to state as I'm finding it difficult to understand many of your posts). So, while tangentially relevant, it is derailing the thread. Please either state approval or disapproval to the OPs request (along with reasons) and continue your discussion about fairness or unfairness of the hackspace's processes in a new topic.

[Martin Dittus]

Dean, ~three people have asked you to please stay on topic. In this thread we're specifically discussing the George's request to film. Please start a new thread if you want to discuss our general filming policy, or other things you are concerned about.

I'm not against discussing the topics you suggest; I'm merely saying this is not the place for them.

Please start a separate thread.

m.

[Dean Forbes (PERS)]

Martin 

It would help if you answer some simple questions, to start with such as in what capcity you act here on list you are a member unless clearly stated otherwise in my view, as a trustee I would expect a more profesional level of conduct. I have extennded an invite to go off list but you have ignored this 

The issue

With due respect I ask what it is that is not related to a request to film as that is what georges request is,  in this thread that you have an issue with, policy and practice are part and parcel  I believe I have only discussed issues related to request to film here and the implementation of policy and practice 

You asked me not to "derail" what ever that means and Monty asked me to open a new thread - I asked for what precisely as it is all related to the same content in my view. 

In my understanding that is ONE and if you interpret your comment as you have possibly two could you enlighten me where the third one is hidden 

As I said you are welcome to email me off list but I do ask that you are clear in your communication

What I am asking for is fairness and transparency's never mind consistency in dealing with issues and requests relating to filming = where is a clear guide line and policy for requests and enforcement

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[Ndlovu]

what do you want a seperate thread for .........

[Mark Steward]

Dean, please stop replying on this thread: you're filling the mailing list with junk, and using multiple email addresses doesn't help the moderators' job.  Feel free to email trus...@london.hackspace.org.uk and we'll address your concerns.

Mark

--

[Dean Forbes (PERS)]

Mark

thanks for your post

I have asked a direct question on the list that is approriate to the thread that it is in I can not see the what it was that Martin felt should be in another thread or what ground he has for this.Martin has not been clear infact no one has that they are acting as Moderator or represnting the trustess, I had asked Martin some specific questions on the list and asked what was they werent able to respond.

I have two emails as manty people do both from a domain in my name. (not that difficult I think) one will show when i am logged in to the forum and another when I respond by email all are visible on the forum and or in my mail box and am not sure of the relevance to this.

I will take you up on your invite to mail the trustess directly and will compose a note in due course, I belive it is an inapproriate way to silence what you dont want or are not prepared to respond to publicy (so much for a community based orginisation or transparency for that matter)

Cheers

Dean

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[Ndlovu]

Mark

thanks for your post

I have asked a direct question on the list that is approriate to the thread that it is in I can not see the what it was that Martin felt should be in another thread or what ground he has for this.Martin has not been clear infact no one has that they are acting as Moderator or represnting the trustess, I had asked Martin some specific questions on the list and asked what was they werent able to respond.

I have two emails as manty people do both from a domain in my name. (not that difficult I think) one will show when i am logged in to the forum and another when I respond by email all are visible on the forum and or in my mail box and am not sure of the relevance to this.

I will take you up on your invite to mail the trustess directly and will compose a note in due course, I belive it is an inapproriate way to silence what you dont want or are not prepared to respond to publicy (so much for a community based orginisation or transparency for that matter)

Cheers

Dean

[Adrian Godwin]

Dean,

New posters to the list are all moderated in order to keep spammers out.
Every time you post with a new address, a moderator has to manually
approve your post.

Far from silencing your opinion, the moderators are actually having to
work harder in order to allow you to post. I'm amazed that they're
going to the trouble to do that extremely promptly.

-adrian

[Jim Allanson]

Nobody is trying to silence you, you're only being requested to spin off the discussion to a new thread because the OP's post is about a specific request and so, they'll be following the thread for replies related to their specific issue. Your comments are about the policy in general, which will likely cause a much longer discussion, little of which will be of interest to the OP - posting about policy in general in this thread will make it harder to for the OP / others to find comments related to their request, and harder for people interested in discussing policy to find it.

--

[Mark Steward]

It's actually working in reverse this time: I'm trying to stop this thread being filled with shouty off-topic replies.

Please note that we do not take moderating people lightly (it means more work for us), but will do so when someone is posting excessively on the list.  All Dean's addresses are now on moderation, so his posts will need to be approved before being allowed through.

Mark