Proposed EGM... (or a counter revolution...?)

[Thomas Hodgkins]

Hi All,

I just found out that there is a problem with the recent elections of trustees of the space. Apparently, a minority of the trustees are unhappy that a particular person was elected and one or two trustees have pushed for an EGM in January to have this new trustee removed.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? To me, if there was such an issue (or issues) with this person, they should have been aired before the election so that members could have had the opportunity to weigh it up before voting. As things stand this looks like a 'Palace Coup' by a section that isn't happy with the democratic process.

The danger is that if this goes forward, it invalidates any election or democratic consultation. Surely, the point of having nine (9) trustees is so that no one person can drive the board in a direction it doesn't want to go. If there is a 'Rogue' trustee, there must be checks and a reporting process in place to deal with this type of problem.

I realise that this may be unleashing a s**t storm around me  and I accept that there may be elements to this that I am missing but I think it should be widely known and discussed.

Cheers all...

[Russ Garrett]

This has already been discussed extensively in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/london-hack-space/_NIU5NlvLBE/QZt5KJsFDAAJ

I would suggest not re-hashing the same issues until new information
comes to light.

Russ

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Tim Reynolds]

Hi Thomas,

It would be interesting to know where you heard this version of events.

The EGM to remove Dean started off _before the election_ and the
original motion was to remove him as a member, it has been expanded to
remove him as a director since the election results.

It was not started by a trustee.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Billy]

You haven't unleashed the shitstorm, it was let loose a few days ago.

You are not the only person who has a problem with this behaviour.

There were a number of threads discussing this over the weekend, though that it was some of the trustee's that were complaining is new information.

And yes, the 'palace coup' by people who weren't happy with the result of a fairly held election, is pretty much how i've been looking at the situation.

[Adrian Godwin]

It's the first I've heard that any trustees have 'pushed for an EGM in January to have this new trustee removed'.

To the best of my knowledge, the EGM has been proposed by ordinary members.

I believe this is incorrect and, if it is, should be corrected here to avoid any confusion.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.

[Tim Reynolds]

It is not new information, it is entirely incorrect information. It does
not need to enter the argument. The EGM was not started by trustees
unhappy with the election result.

The process of the EGM was started before the election results. It was
not as a result of the election results. It was not started by a trustee.

I know you're upset about this, but you're working off false information
that is being bent to fit.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Thomas can you please disclose where you got this (incorrect) information? Looks to me like someone is spreading it for a purpose.

On 8 December 2015 at 18:31, Thomas Hodgkins <thod...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

I think it was stated several times in the previous thread that votes
were anonymous, so identifying those who voted for it isn't going to happen.

And there's not 72 trustees. Even if they all had voted for this EGM,
they'd still be in the minority of voters.

On 08/12/2015 18:39, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> It's the first I've heard that any trustees have 'pushed for an EGM in
> January to have this new trustee removed'.
> To the best of my knowledge, the EGM has been proposed by ordinary members.
>
> I believe this is incorrect and, if it is, should be corrected here to
> avoid any confusion.
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Thomas Hodgkins <thod...@gmail.com

> <mailto:thod...@gmail.com>> wrote:

[Thomas Hodgkins]

Hi,

There is an email being circulated which I have pasted at the end of my comments. I have removed the name of the writer but I am sure they would be willing to let you know if asked.

From where I sit there is a campaign being orchestrated by a few but referring to a 'many' who chose not to be identified. My concern is that this will be left unspoken until the EGM which will risk being, or being seen as, a 'kangaroo court'.

Even if all the accusations are valid (and I don't believe that to be the case), this is no way for a community to operate.

If this was an issue before the election, then there was a problem with the election process in that this was not aired properly beforehand. You can't just refuse to accept a fair ballot because you are unhappy with who got elected.

If Dean is so much of a problem, the other eight trustees should be able to deal with it. If he has been such a problem, why has the existing complaints procedure not covered it? If his behavior was to become so unacceptable as a trustee, then there must be procedures to record it and sanction him at that time.

It is worrying when one faction justifies their campaign in part by constantly referring to some 'silent majority' who then remain in the shadows.

If the EGM only requires 10 people to be 'quorate', this is a major concern. Of a membership in excess of one thousand who were entitled to vote, over three hundred did. That can now be overturned by a rump of fewer than a dozen?

This is the body of the email being circulated:

Hello!

We either know each other, or have had exchanges online or via the
hackspace: Either way, you know who I am, why I care so much about the
hackspace, and trust my views with regards to its long-term health.

We just recently had the London Hackspace 2015 elections. Sadly during
the elections someone just managed to be elected who has personal issues
with at least three of the other trustees, and them remaining elected is
likely to cause a mass resignation of at least four of the other 9
trustees.

In an attempt to halt this disaster before it gets any further and
causes incalculable damage to the space itself, one of the members is
calling for an EGM (extraordinary general meeting) to remove this
trustee.

I would really appreciate it if you could support this EGM by quickly
emailing *****************, with the subject "EGM" and the
body "I support the EGM to remove Dean Forbes".

Thanks,

P.S. Once the EGM has been called, you'll be able to vote in favour by
proxy (me), you won't need to attend yourself unless you really want to.

P.P.S. If you'd like see why this member is such a problem I do not
recommend reading this recent 40+ post mailing list thread in which they
repeatedly lied while pointing the finger at anybody else who has broken
the rules:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg

[Aden]

That didn't answer the question, who circulated that email to you and made up the conspiracy theories surrounding it?

 

[JJ]

It's becoming clear that the solution to all the problems is to ban everyone named Thomas.

</humour>

[Thomas Hodgkins]

Hi,

The discussion is current in the space.

As to who circulate it to me, I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours... At least until I'm banned... Joking aside, this is an ethical issue and/or a potential misuse of procedure.

I will nail my colours to the mast by saying that I have always found Dean to be really helpful and welcoming. He has also struck me as someone who was getting things done and organised. He may be a bit abrasive but he ain't alone in that... Maybe if he was a bit more petite he would come across as less threatening, there again...

On Tuesday, 8 December 2015 19:51:33 UTC, ad...@aden.org.uk wrote:

That didn't answer the question, who circulated that email to you and made up the conspiracy theories surrounding it?

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Thomas Hodgkins <thod...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

There is an email being circulated which I have pasted at the end of my comments. I have removed the name of the writer but I am sure they would be willing to let you know if asked.

From where I sit there is a campaign being orcchestrated by a few but referring to a 'many' who chose not to be identified. My concern is that this will be left unspoken until the EGM which will risk being, or being seen as, a 'kangaroo court'.

[Aden]

I wouldn't believe any of the lies you've been told. You are a new member that doesn't understand the organisation or properly know the people involved, so probably in your interest to stay neutral.

[jo...@jonty.co.uk]

Hello,

 

I sent this email out to a small group of people after being absolutely terrified when I learned that a number of trustees were considering stepping down as a result of the election. After learning that a member was calling an EGM I expected it to be posted on the main mailing list, meaning this looks more sinister than it actually was.

 

The point of an EGM is as a safety valve, to tackle things when the trustees or existing organisational structures are broken. It's not a violation of the rules - it's there as part of them so that members of the organisation can act if they believe something bad has (or is about to) happen.

 

If you read the threads circulating around the EGM, you'll see that members are saying that the trustees have not dealt with Dean as they should have and that the complaints procedure is broken, which is why they're calling for an EGM.

 

For those who don't know, I'm one of the two hackspace founders (and a current trustee) and care passionately about the ongoing health of the space. In less than two years time we're going to have to move the hackspace or disband, and I am exceptionally worried about us heading into such a period when we have a board that may be dysfunctional or significantly lacking in capacity.

 

I personally would like the EGM to go ahead purely to clear this matter up formally rather than have a sizable number of members unhappy with the situation and causing hassle in the future. I should say that not all the trustees agree with my concerns - we're not a homogeneous blob of trustee-ness.

 

Remember every member can vote on motions at an EGM, either by being there in person or by proxy voting by emailing Russ (the chair) when the EGM is announced - I fully expect to see the ~300 people who voted in the election voting and a correct representational outcome emerge.

 

Jonty

 

P.S. I was incorrect when I said you could proxy vote by another member, but in my defense it was early in the morning and I'd not had coffee yet.

[Billy]

This is unacceptable behaviour.

When did you receive this email?

It was written as though it was sent after the election, but the call for the EGM went out before the election.

Was this how the 72 people calling for the EGM was achieved?

If so, it explains why the the requisite number of people was only acheived after the results were in, and why there has been a constant vagueness about what the EGM was being called for.

This organised witch-hunt is a form of bullying. Not bullying based on physical intimidation, but it's bullying all the same.

[tgreer]

Oh for fuck sake Billy. I emailed on the 24th November calling for an EGM to remove Dean Forbes as a member. Wind yer neck in!

[Tim Reynolds]

I've spoken to a ton of people about the EGM. Most of them voted for it.

Why is the election democratic but the EGM not? All members of the
hackspace can vote at the EGM like they can at the election. It has
exactly the same voting pool.

People emailing support *of* the EGM happening (what this email is
about) isn't a vote for/against process. Even if you'd known this EGM
was coming you couldn't have voted against it.

If you've ever said to anyone "I'll be voting for Dean to stay because
this is bullying" you've done as much as this email has.

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg <https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg>

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Billy]

And why didn't you go through the normal complaints procedure that we set up?

Jonty: I'm seriously surprised and disappointed that you took this approach.

[tgreer]

Because I was sick of trying to go through that route. This is why we have an EGM. 

[Thomas Hodgkins]

Sorry ad, but do you realise how offensive what you have just written is? This kind of comment would make the Stasi blush...

[Tim Reynolds]

As has been covered in multiple emails - the EGM is the final resort
because Deans behaviour makes the complaints procedure non workable. Yes
that means it probably has to change, but first this. I'm not going to
spend another thread trying to get you to understand other peoples
experiences of Dean.

> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg>

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Tim Reynolds]

Your first email was almost entirely factually inaccurate. You've
obviously been told that all by someone with an agenda.

> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg>

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from it, send an email to
> london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/optout

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <javascript:>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Billy]

Tim: To repeat my question, that you still haven't answered, Why didn't you use the existing complaints procedure?

Yes, you've said that you felt intimidated by Dean, but you haven't provided any concrete evidence of what the behaviour was, or what took place.

> <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Billy, if someone is unwilling to bring up a matter where they felt
intimidated through private and confidential channels, why do you think
they will be more likely to when you demand it in a public one?

[Tim Reynolds]

Ok, here we go.

I have multiple friends that have attempted to complain about Dean, and
the resultant e-mail and in person harassment from Dean has resulted in
them wishing they never had. For obvious reasons, naming them here is
counterproductive.

My complaint about Dean would be:

1) His intimidating behaviour that I have seen with my own eyes in the
hackspace.

2) The constant and unending storage fuckery

Why haven't I? I think "because intimidation" is a good enough answer,
but you obviously dont so I'll attempt to do it point by point again.

1) Complaining about someone harassing people who complain about him
will cause me to be harassed. It will probably cause the people who were
involved in the original incident to get a new dose of Deans attention.
That is not something I want.

2) Complaining about Deans storage fuckery will result in me being
harassed. That is not something I want.

So now you're probably going to say "but if Dean harasses you like that
just make another complaint" - I can almost understand it - but "suffer
some more abuse so you can complain again" shouldn't be part of the process.

Do you honestly believe that a member should be forced to suffer some
more abuse from another member just to satisfy you? That is why I voted
for the EGM and why I will vote for Deans removal on all capacity. The
grievance procedure doesn't work with him, as he intimidates people.

Another thing you're going to say is "but this is all hearsay! who are
these people!" - I can understand that, but once again, please
understand that the whole reason I can't name them is, wait for it,
because Dean will harass them.

On 08/12/2015 20:49, Billy wrote:
>

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg>
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg

> > an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> > <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com
> <javascript:>>.

> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Thomas Hodgkins]

Tim, If my first email is incorrect, could you point out where and correct me? I have been trying to follow the threads and so much is 'many say, many feel, many think' but no real evidence that seems to stand up and no mention of who the 'many' might be beyond the few who are posting.

> <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Tim Reynolds]

I was the second person to reply.

"I just found out that there is a problem with the recent elections of
trustees of the space. Apparently, a minority of the trustees are
unhappy that a particular person was elected and one or two trustees
have pushed for an EGM in January to have this new trustee removed."

The EGM was started by Thomas Greer (not a trustee) on the 24th November
(during the election, before the results) with the stated purpose of
removing Dean Forbes as a member.


This is not a conspiracy by trustees, this is an action by members
unhappy with Dean being elected. ALL MEMBERS will be able to vote on it
at the EGM, just as all members were able to vote in the hackspace
elections.

Jonty said in his email in this thread that he sent that email about the
EGM to a few people because he was upset about what was happening - he
has every right to do that as a member - as do you or I. I sent a lot of
messages to people asking them to support the EGM too. Why we want an
EGM has been outlinedin dozens of emails, some in this thread and some
in others.

There is a concious effort to spin this as being instigated by trustees
after the election to remove Dean because he was elected and that is
just untrue.

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg>
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21topic/london-hack-space/6U_cG0LMVXg

> > <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <javascript:>>.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Tim Reynolds]

And in a stunning case of torpedoing my own argument, I've messed up
cutting and pasting that email around.

"This is not a conspiracy by trustees, this is an action by members
unhappy with Dean being elected"

Should read "This is not a conspiracy by trustees, this is an action by
members unhappy with Deans behaviour"

[jo...@jonty.co.uk]

On Tue, 8 Dec 2015, at 08:45 PM, Billy wrote:

Jonty: I'm seriously surprised and disappointed that you took this approach.

 

Honestly Billy, I was incredibly sad and disappointed that I felt my hand was forced to do so. I still am.

 

Given the amount of work that is upcoming to keep the space alive past 2017 I consider losing trustees to be a catastrophic problem. I can't even say for certain that they _will_ step down, but that anybody would say it at all hints at terrible things to come.

 

I should say that it is entirely possible I may not be able to remain as a trustee much longer due to serious problems in my life, and thus wish to see the board in the best possible shape to tackle the future. This isn't about my continuing life as a trustee.

 

I have given six years of my life to the hackspace, and I desperately want it to stick around for at least six more.

 

Jonty

[Scooby]

This is the biggest conspiracy and lies ever, these circle of members are all looking out for themselves only and know full well that Dean hasn't done anything at all, everything was fine until Dean was nominated forward for this election and thats when all hell broke loose, almost every thread that Dean wrote/replied to was twisted and taken off track with claims and accusations, this was professionally planned to be guided into this fraudulent direction, and i have no doubt that the accusers will be accused one day and face their day in Court and be furnished in her Majesty pleasure, ive witnessed this practice and behavior far to long and for far to many years and i will make sure personally that this will come to an end, i will let it be also known right now at this moment in time to be the first to have my VOTE counted right now today before this so called EGM happens that i want to support Dean to stay and NOT to me banned and to l]plea to all good Hackspace members to come forward and not be afraid well all stand by you and what we honestly believe in.

Thank you.

[Nick Johnson]

Scooby, do you appreciate the irony in simultaneously calling for the heads of anyone who supports ejecting Dean, and asking "all good Hackspace members to come forward and not be afraid"?

-Nick

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:14 PM Scooby <mk1ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the biggest conspiracy and lies ever, these circle of members are all looking out for themselves only and know full well that Dean hasn't done anything at all, everything was fine until Dean was nominated forward for this election and thats when all hell broke loose, almost every thread that Dean wrote/replied to was twisted and taken off track with claims and accusations, this was professionally planned to be guided into this fraudulent direction, and i have no doubt that the accusers will be accused one day and face their day in Court and be furnished in her Majesty pleasure, ive witnessed this practice and behavior far to long and for far to many years and i will make sure personally that this will come to an end, i will let it be also known right now at this moment in time to be the first to have my VOTE counted right now today before this so called EGM happens that i want to support Dean to stay and NOT to me banned and to l]plea to all good Hackspace members to come forward and not be afraid well all stand by you and what we honestly believe in.

Thank you.

[Aden]

Scooby, if you don't trust the people that founded the London Hackspace, then why are you a member?

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:13 PM, Scooby <mk1ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the biggest conspiracy and lies ever, these circle of members are all looking out for themselves only and know full well that Dean hasn't done anything at all, everything was fine until Dean was nominated forward for this election and thats when all hell broke loose, almost every thread that Dean wrote/replied to was twisted and taken off track with claims and accusations, this was professionally planned to be guided into this fraudulent direction, and i have no doubt that the accusers will be accused one day and face their day in Court and be furnished in her Majesty pleasure, ive witnessed this practice and behavior far to long and for far to many years and i will make sure personally that this will come to an end, i will let it be also known right now at this moment in time to be the first to have my VOTE counted right now today before this so called EGM happens that i want to support Dean to stay and NOT to me banned and to l]plea to all good Hackspace members to come forward and not be afraid well all stand by you and what we honestly believe in.

Thank you.

[hamish campbell]

Agree with billy on this, the whole thing is starting to smell at the core.

Dean might be a sometimes "difficult" but under this actional veneer the is a hard working and competent Hackspacer. What this smell at the core is harder to see.

Hope we can see this a bit clearer.

[Nick Johnson]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:21 PM hamish campbell <ham...@visionon.tv> wrote:

Agree with billy on this, the whole thing is starting to smell at the core.

Dean might be a sometimes "difficult" but under this actional veneer the is a hard working and competent Hackspacer. What this smell at the core is harder to see.

Hard working and competent people can still promote hostile environments that discourage other people from participating or scare them off entirely.

 

Hope we can see this a bit clearer.

[Tim Reynolds]

Could you quantify for me how hard you have to work to earn the right to
be abusive?

If you clear up the workshop do you get to tell someone to fuck off? If
you sweep the car park do you get to store things without permission?

A conversion chart would be very helpful.

[Billy]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 10:32:02 PM UTC, Nick Johnson wrote:

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:21 PM hamish campbell <ham...@visionon.tv> wrote:

Agree with billy on this, the whole thing is starting to smell at the core.

Dean might be a sometimes "difficult" but under this actional veneer the is a hard working and competent Hackspacer. What this smell at the core is harder to see.

Hard working and competent people can still promote hostile environments that discourage other people from participating or scare them off entirely.

Any sufficiently well-performed sabotage is indistinguishable from a toxic employee, http://blog.robertorosario.com/sabotage-made-simple/ :(

[Billy]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 9:02:48 PM UTC, Tim Reynolds wrote:

Ok, here we go.

I have multiple friends that have attempted to complain about Dean, and
the resultant e-mail and in person harassment from Dean has resulted in
them wishing they never had. For obvious reasons, naming them here is
counterproductive.

This isn't a matter for the hackspace then.

This should have been reported to the police.

Bullying is never acceptable.
 

>      > <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>     <javascript:>>.
>      > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Tim Reynolds]

That is absolutely absurd and you know it.

So if it's acceptable to go to the police, why is not acceptable to call
an EGM over this?

> > > <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com
> <javascript:>

> > <javascript:>>.
> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>

> > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>

> > <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <javascript:>>.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[hamish campbell]

What's that smell... Can you smell it?

[Billy]

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:17:36 AM UTC, Tim Reynolds wrote:

That is absolutely absurd and you know it.

So if it's acceptable to go to the police, why is not acceptable to call
an EGM over this?

Because we at the hackspace cannot perform Witness Protection, which is what's necessary in harassment cases.

All we can do is bar people from the hackspace. It doesn't stop someone retaliating outside of the hackspace.

If they've got the emails, there is an evidence chain that can be followed, and this is evidence of harassment that didn't take place at the hackspace. That means that our internal rules don't apply, but the UK legal system does.

This would be enough evidence to bar Dean without the need to call an EGM. We'd still need the EGM to remove Dean as a trustee, but that's due to the way our legal structures is set up.

Why didn't anyone flag this up and call the cops?


 

>      >      > <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>     <javascript:>
>      >     <javascript:>>.
>      >      > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>
>      >     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>.
>      >
>      > --
>      > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>      > Groups "London Hackspace" group.
>      > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>     send
>      > an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>

>      > <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>     <javascript:>>.
>      > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Richard Patterson]

Billy, the point you're completely missing is that calling for an EGM is part of the "normal" and existing complaints procedure.  There's nothing sinister about this process.

The EGM has been successfully called, all that is left to remain is for the EGM to take place and for a "democratic" outcome to occur.  Please by all means attend the EGM or vote via proxy.

End of.

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Tim Reynolds]

You're fucking insane. I'm done.

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>

> > <javascript:>
> > > <javascript:>>.
> > > > For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/optout <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>

> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>>.
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the Google
> > > Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from it,
> > send
> > > an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>

> > > <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <javascript:>
> > <javascript:>>.
> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>

> > <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <javascript:>>.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[Billy]

No, it's not just that.

The larger point is that if Dean has done this, then he has commited legal offenses that go beyond what we at the hackspace are set up to deal with, and fixing this is a bigger situation than just in our space.

And banning him from the hackspace, wouldn't stop him causing problems elsewhere.

> <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[JJ]

Billy::

>> The EGM was started by Thomas Greer (not a trustee) on the 24th November (during the election, before the results) with the stated purpose of removing Dean Forbes as a member.

>> This is not a conspiracy by trustees, this is an action by members unhappy with Dean being elected. ALL MEMBERS will be able to vote on it at the EGM, just as all members were able to vote in the hackspace elections.

So let me get this straight.  It was started before the election results by people unhappy with Dean who had not yet been elected, being elected.  Have you ever encountered the concept of logic?

Either grow up or actually go to the police as you intimate and let them explain some basics of company law to you.

[Richard Patterson]

That's fine and possibly true, but it's irrelevant when discussing the validity of the EGM. So please take that conversation offline.

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Billy]

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 1:30:23 AM UTC, Billy wrote:

No, it's not just that.

The larger point is that if Dean has done this, then he has commited legal offenses that go beyond what we at the hackspace are set up to deal with, and fixing this is a bigger situation than just in our space.

And banning him from the hackspace, wouldn't stop him causing problems elsewhere.

Perhaps a little more background would help you understand my perspective.

I used to share a house with someone who was being harassed by the Scientologists. They used to hassle us at all hours of the day and night. i got used to having the local station on speed-dial, and regularly reported them to the local police. This was covered under the stalking laws, however he is still having to live off-grid as they are still looking for him.

When i lived at a housing co-operative, i was a membership officer, and a couple of times we recieved applications from women who were trying to get out of abusive relationships, and while there would have been a few "have-a-go-heroes" who would have been happy to help, what was more useful for those women, in the long run, was to pass their apploications over to the Women's officer, who was able to get them to a secure Domestic Abuse refuge.

There are problems that organisations can handle internally, and there are times when you have to call the cops.

This is sounding more and more like one of those times.

[JJ]

Scooby:

I'm really having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say, so I have a suggestion to help you get your point across.

Here are some full stops: ..............

Here are some commas: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Here are some carriage returns:

When you've run out have a look on your keyboard as there are probably some more there, usually below or to the right of the alphabetic characters.

[Billy]

No, because if it is true, then he should be removed immediately.

> <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Richard Patterson]

Before or after a lawful conviction Billy?

Your ideology and feelings aside, the EGM has been called for correctly in accordance with company law and the Hackspace's constitution.  Once again, end of.

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Billy, I like you, but you have an absurd amount of faith in the police,
their priorities and abilities if you're serious.

For what people are accusing Dean of, the most I'd anticipate the police
would do is issue a caution, if that. They would not smuggle you away to
a safe-house in dead of night.

As someone whose gone to court as a witness in a harassment case, you
will be damn lucky if it goes to court inside a year and a half, during
which time they'll only take additional action if the subject repeats or
escalates the matter, both of which would likely just result in yet more
cautions.
*If* they find them guilty, the most they'll likely get is an official
warning to keep away from the victim and a mark on their record. Unless
they've seriously assaulted you, in which case they may go to prison for
a couple of months.

Witness protection? Sure, if someone and their associates was out to
kill you and your family. For someone yelling obscenities and sending
emails? The officer handling the case will be trying not to laugh if you
suggest it.

*further frustrated legal advice removed*

On 09/12/2015 01:01, Billy wrote:
>
>

[Billy]

There's a reason that i don't know where the Domestic Abuse refuge is. Because no-one who isn't directly involved in running the place, or isn't hiding there, knows where it is.Because they've had ex-husbands turn up at previous venues trying to murder their ex-partners.

That's a worst case scenario, but the things that have been talked about, would be seen as admissable evidence.

Either the evidence chain exists, and there is actionable evidence, in which case, Dean needs to be barred from the hackspace instantly.

Or the evidence chain doesn't exist, and we've laid the hackspace open to a lawsuit for defamation.

Rock meet hard place.

And with the lack of support that's been shown, for the people that Tim is saying that were harassed, either way we don't come out of this in a good way.

[deanforbes]

This is not about me as an individual read the various hackspace resources and you will work that out 

It is about protection of power and privilege historically accrued or inherited which are normal symptoms of a company growing or a group of friends growing larger where the original one are losing the ability to just call the shots, all trustees are part of a board and in an organisation with appropriate governance no trustees has a significant amount of power but as a board they are powerful

I am but one in a group of nine dont loose sight of that, dont loose sight of that as a director you needs to act in the interest of the company

My belief is that Greers probable exploitation was after his "right" to do as he wanted in the container was questioned and if you look at the people who have fuelled this or supported it most of them are in a similar position

I have never been blameless I too have fallen into the when in "Rome Syndrome" but this really is about singling me out as I am the "messenger" 

[Lee Jones]

Might I chime in here.

I don't know Dean (and I expect a large number of the 1000+ other members don't either) and so if it were to come to a vote and I voted - I would not be able to vote in favour of banning him as a member, likewise I would hope that any other members who have not have first hand experience of Deans misconduct would vote in the same way. 

So I pose the question: if this banning does not go through, what will the original members who proposed the EGM so then...

It's all very well to state that people will leave if the EGM doesn't go their way.... But I feel you may be cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

Rather than venting on this thread why not leave this discussion to the EGM.

In the meantime.... Why don't the trustees get together. 

Have an actual private discussion between each other and discuss the space ..... 

Forget any personal issues and think about the space.... Rather than this nonsense.

You never know - you might all decide that Dean is not as poisonous as is being suggested. 

Either way, you will then cast your votes at the EGM.

Dean: a thought for you.. If there are amends to be made on your part... Start now. You were voted in as a trustee, so you have at least some following..... Start converting everyone else. Show people they are wrong.... Don't argue about it... Just show us what you can do for the space.

All the best,

Lee

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Aden]

That is like the Steve Jobs approach to cancer, the stage of just trying to be nice was 2 years ago.

[deanforbes]

Lee

Thank you for your view point, I have taken your thoughts onboard, I may respond when the notice or EGM comes out based on what makes it to the agenda but I have for all intents had my say 

I am in the meantime continuing as a member, a trustee, and contributing as I have in the past ... despite what is said here I am sensitive to other peoples opinions and views  

[Griff]

This is all very interesting...

The whole case seems absurd to me.

in Russ' formal statement he declares there have been 9 incidents involving Dean; all of which have not gone any further due to a lack of evidence or formal complaint. How can this information be used against Dean now if it was never acted upon when it was alleged to have occurred? The only actual formal documented issue which was acted upon is with one storage problem. This is not a reason to dismiss a member.

I will be voting in favor of Dean being a continued member of the Hackspace at the EGM and call for anyone else who has not seen any actual evidence to prove the accusations to do the same. If any future problems occur I urge members to make formal complaints and to back up the complaint with evidence such as witness statements or written statements of what was said and when.

[Russ Garrett]

On 9 December 2015 at 10:22, Griff <ryanpete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> in Russ' formal statement he declares there have been 9 incidents involving
> Dean; all of which have not gone any further due to a lack of evidence or
> formal complaint.

I will strenuously point out that it was not my formal statement. I
published it on request of others, and I remain neutral on this issue.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Scooby]

It's great to now see that Dean is receiving support and that our other members are starting to see the true side of this and come forward, we have the same few negative people time and time again trying to justify Dean's ban and to shut others up, swear, and get so personally upset, it should be Dean that it's affecting as he is the one that is up for the slaughter, however he has remained cool calm and very professional, and those of you that know Dean like myself know how nice warm and very friendly he really is, he has the softest of hearts and would never harm a flea despite of hes size, i strongly recommend (before you vote) that you should all pop over to the Hackspace some day and speak to him face to face and see for yourselves he will not bite you and will always crack a smile he is very normal and he will explain everything in great detail and honesty, please do also come forward here on the Mailing List and do not fear from others and do not to worry about them getting upset if their Mail Box is getting clogged up of not.

And finally my apologies if i do not have the ability to string a sentence correctly and in the right format, however i will admit it now to those of you that haven't already worked that 4 years ago, but have chose to take the muck out of me on this serious thread,  what i can say is that i am capable to doing just about anything and everything else and have seen, done it, and been there too, and sadly i don't have the time to be glued to a screen.

Thank you again.

[James P]

JJ I know emotions are running high with some people, perhaps both yourself and Scooby but I understood his message.

If you need help clarifying what he was intending to write then, and unless you intended your message in jest, please just ask what you were unsure of.

<personal position>neutral. Want the tolerant, collaborative and good spirited community of the Hackspace to live on and grow stronger.<personal position/>

[James P]

Lee, like yourself and the probable 1000+ other members, I don't know Dean well. I will be looking to find more information and if I have insufficient information I will attend the EGM and cast an abstaining vote (or equivalent if that's not possible) not vote for or against a motion where one doesn't know what they're doing.

Good advice for Dean, and the trustees. Dean reaching out to the people he has been alledged (perhaps even admitted?) to have insulted or intimidated with heart felt apologies, might also be a productive and positive action going forwards.

AJP

<personal position>neutral. Want a tolerant, collaborative and good spirited community of the Hackspace to live on and grow stronger.<personal position/>

[Philip Roy (cepmender)]

This is plainly an attempt to raise a cheap laugh at the expense of someone who has difficulty with written communication.  As such, it is shameful and abusive. I am ashamed to be part of a group where even a small subset considers this acceptable.

If you have an issue with someone's views that is a matter for discussion or disagreement. 

Mocking someone because their standard of written English is not as good as yours is un-excellent and, frankly, pretty pathetic.

Ioannes 8:32

Scooby:

I'm really having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say, so I 
have a suggestion to help you get your point across.

Here are some full stops: ..............

Here are some commas: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Here are some carriage returns:






When you've run out have a look on your keyboard as there are probably some 
more there, usually below or to the right of the alphabetic characters.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[deanforbes]

@James P where I am aware or have been made aware that this is the case, this is exactly what I have done (issue a heartfelt apology) at this point the sum total is 1 I am human I have views and feeling and have made mistakes, I can, I have, and I will acknowledge them.

The reality and perception are very different as is the agenda of this set of actions, which I suspect is obvious to the objective observer a lot of what is said here comes from people who have had no or indeed very very little interaction with me 

There has been a commentary of reprisal in one email which I would like to respond to  Anyone who knows me, I am confident will discount this immediately, I have not nor has there ever been any indication by me of this type of behaviour. it goes completely against who I am and those of you that don't know me all I can do is reassure you or ask that you come and chat to me or people who have actually spent time working with me and know me.