8 months remaining until the lease ends?

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Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 16, 2017, 11:25:39 AM7/16/17
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I don't know if it's the start or end of March next year we have until
the lease ends, so 33-37 weeks remain?

I haven't heard any mention of possible new venues. I have however heard
people holding off on contributing to hackspace works in expectation
that it would be wasted effort or how to dispose of large projects &
equipment on site.

It feels that there is a general expectation that the LHS is going to be
coming to an end at the end of this lease. That there is insufficient
community will to continue it in any form.

So are we still looking for new venues or should members start making
preparations to re-accommodate their loaned tools/equipment/storage and
redistribute the community owned tools to other suitable organisations?

Tom Lynch

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Jul 16, 2017, 3:10:34 PM7/16/17
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I'm very concerned by this possible collapse of Hackspace and lack of much talk about what is going to happen, 1,300 Hackspace members suddenly looking for a new home would bring most other spaces across London into serious capacity issues.

For what it's worth I'd be happy to give advice and support anyone looking to establish new spaces.

It would seem like a members meeting be organised to discuss the future plans.

Martin (Crypt)

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Jul 16, 2017, 4:37:45 PM7/16/17
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I'm guessing we should probably try to look at anything that might be coming up in the near future.  The problem is, we're getting a little tight on time right now, as with our current place it was quite a while from getting the keys to actually moving in, mainly due to building out the rooms.

I think a membership meeting would be a good start, but we really need movement on this a a matter of extreme urgency if we're going to make it in time.


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Aden

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Jul 16, 2017, 4:45:44 PM7/16/17
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Meetings are normally pointless, as it's the same bunch of obstructive troublemakers always turn up.

Last time people came up with ideas they were discounted for being too small or whatever, but I think we'll have to significantly downscale. Basically give up on all the heavy machinery downstairs and just go for a light industrial unit like cremer street.

Something like http://www.movehut.co.uk/property/526815-markian-house-52-56-pritchards-road-hackney-e2/?k=1

Tom Lynch

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Jul 16, 2017, 5:03:36 PM7/16/17
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The problem with industrial units like Cremer Street is that a large amount of them in London are owned by Workspace Group who have banned organisations like London Hackspace and South London Makerspace as they have deemed them competitors to their Workspace co-working venture.

While that is obviously utter nonsense the model and services are nothing like each other, I have spent hours and hours trying to reason and argue with their managers, and regional director about this but they refused to listen to reason.

I don't think it's going to be easy to find an industrial unit, and I don't think down scaling the workshop provision is the right solution, perhaps it may need to move to a more affordable area, but again it's not really a practical solution.

A solution could be to split the organisation into more sub-groups.


Aden

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Jul 16, 2017, 5:16:57 PM7/16/17
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To get the same amount of space we have now would probably mean moving out to zone 5, which nobody wants to travel to.
Something has to go, so I think that has to be the heavy machinery, which very few members can actually use.

Tom Lynch

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Jul 16, 2017, 6:01:58 PM7/16/17
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I think you overlooked my final point which was further separating out LHS into sub-groups.

You are correct a large enough space won't be found, and frankly the membership needs to wake up to the fact that £5 a month isn't a sustainable minimum membership anymore.

What I am keenly aware of however is there are a lot of Hackspace/Makerspace type organisations across London that offer the basic "light-weight" stuff that but very few that offer that heavier weight workshop, and none that I am aware of that are accessible in the way LHS offers, SMEE and Building Bloqs are two alternative examples but they both have very different models.

What I am saying is sure there should probably be a new London Hackspace organisation formed with an increased membership that gets back the the roots, but perhaps there should also be another organisation formed that focuses on the other stuff, the big workshop tools.

Aden

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Jul 16, 2017, 6:21:52 PM7/16/17
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Sure, but the heavier weight workshop element is subsidised by the majority that don't use it, so probably wouldn't work on it's own.

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deanforbes

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Jul 16, 2017, 6:25:38 PM7/16/17
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I think the whole organisation is subsidised by the "forgotten direct debits" I feel the cyber jockeys are also subsidised by the people that do stuff in the space # it is not about ethic cleansing or an elite group but about a community IMHO

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 16, 2017, 6:38:59 PM7/16/17
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In theory this should be easy enough to prove as well if there's any
concern over perceived use vs actual. If it's ACnoded there should be
some sort of use logs, right?

I think we can safely consider that downsizing requires triage. Size &
utility of items are the primary features, as well as removing duplicate
items. If we're lucky we might be able to get somewhere on Cramer St's
scale, which means roughly 1/3rd of the current area, and without a
yard. (My working assumption only)

I think we can also assume that if we don't have a new venue lined up in
say the next 4-5 months, we're not going to be getting a new venue at
all. So anything that's currently being worked on and won't be
operational and useful by that point should assumed that it won't be
coming with. This is where those running projects need to be brutally
honest with themselves. We can't afford any dead albatross' around our
necks.

I know the folks working on the caravan are working how to strip it out,
with the intent of scrapping the superstructure as it's not safe to
move. The radio mast will probably find a home somewhere, but god knows
what we're going to do about the cabin. I presume the landlord will want
us to remove it when we go. Sell it? Scrap it?

A spring-clean/inventory would help assess what we have to worry about.
Or at least hunting down everything that's broken.
I'll see about getting a lift in the next few weeks to disassemble &
remove the screen tree entirely.

We could also consider getting rid of members storage. It's a very large
chunk of space that serves only a fraction of the membership, and with
better management could be functionally replaced entirely by the
existing storage system. IE; temporary storage boxes rather than members
boxes. It would also have the benefit of providing a set location &
clear volume-limited class of storage request.

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 16, 2017, 6:50:36 PM7/16/17
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"Sub-groups" tend to translate to specialist groups within the space.
That in turn implies that they won't have a scope as wide, or all the
tools considered basic to a hackspace.

Some have suggested a distributed membership, where one membership gets
you access to multiple locations with different tools. I don't think
this would work unless it was as one organisation renting multiple
locations in very close proximity. It's also not as cost-effective.

I presume you're talking about spawning successors of the LHS. Smaller
but more numerous?

Minimum membership should really always be the minimum required to pay
all the bills. Currently the budget page says the members need to pay an
average of £15 each to make ends meet.
https://london.hackspace.org.uk/cost-of-hacking/

Lex Robinson

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Jul 16, 2017, 7:12:30 PM7/16/17
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On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 at 23:38 Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
I know the folks working on the caravan are working how to strip it out,
with the intent of scrapping the superstructure as it's not safe to
move.
I'm pretty sure we could make it movable with a bit of work, but it's more that there's no where to move it to. You can't leave a caravan full of electronic goodies* out on the street where anyone with a can opener could wander by.

*Not that what we've got is particularly valuable after what we've done to it but it's still a tempting target

Tom Lynch

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Jul 16, 2017, 7:30:29 PM7/16/17
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At this point working together to establish new spaces in various parts of London with the support of each other, existing LHS infrastructure, and the support of folks from other spaces and the Hackspace Foundation might be the best way forward.

Conversations about membership fees, and storage have gone on for years and when they have come to a head no one really agrees. The organisational structure of Hackspace is fine at small scale but with so many people wanting so much of such a small pie it's impossible to make decisions.

I mean how do you end up with a graph like this...


The income is less than the expenditure after all this time, if this is accurate LHS is not sustainable even as it is without the lease expiring.


I really hope LHS can survive this but it's gonna take a hell of a taking to do so.


Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 16, 2017, 8:20:34 PM7/16/17
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I can respect the desire to keep the minimum membership as it was at the
beginning, which allows a wide range of people to attend. But even just
tracking for inflation it should be £5.60 by now.

On 17/07/2017 00:30, Tom Lynch wrote:
> At this point working together to establish new spaces in various parts
> of London with the support of each other, existing LHS infrastructure,
> and the support of folks from other spaces and the Hackspace Foundation
> might be the best way forward.

It may well be, yes. Use the LHS to assemble the hackspace "starter
kits" while it's still around. Not having to start from scratch would be
a great boost to any new, smaller, spaces.

> Conversations about membership fees, and storage have gone on for years
> and when they have come to a head no one really agrees. The
> organisational structure of Hackspace is fine at small scale but with so
> many people wanting so much of such a small pie it's impossible to make
> decisions.

The disinclination to allow additional organisational structure within
the space or provide top-down guidance has severely hobbled this, and
worse than that it's put off people who had a genuine desire to help out
from doing so. "Self organising anarchy" doesn't scale.

> I mean how do you end up with a graph like this...
>
> <https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-L5R-srP_8bY/WWv2nLsRQSI/AAAAAAAABvE/FBH4kkub5b00auv64x_ptL7ijpp5VSX4gCLcBGAs/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2017-07-16%2Bat%2B23.51.39.png>
>
>
> The income is less than the expenditure after all this time, if this is
> accurate LHS is not sustainable even as it is without the lease expiring.
>
> I really hope LHS can survive this but it's gonna take a hell of a
> taking to do so.

I meant it when I said at the beginning of the year that we needed to
start work right away to survive as an entity. We're seven months past
that. I personally cannot see how the LHS is going to survive. I don't
think there's enough positive will or desire from those who have the
skills to perform the tasks required for another transition. There's too
much exhaustion and bad blood. And frankly in that situation, starting
over is the healthy thing to do.

Tom

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Jul 16, 2017, 8:27:03 PM7/16/17
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> I can respect the desire to keep the minimum membership as it was at the beginning, which allows a wide range of people to attend. But even just tracking for inflation it should be £5.60 by now.

Sure at offical rates, but everyone knows the cost of living has gone up by more than inflation, rent is much higher for example, and business rates increases too.

Mel

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Jul 16, 2017, 8:39:03 PM7/16/17
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How does the HS go about finding a new place? Is this step even defined? Or should we nominate a group of people tasked with finding a new space and organizing the move?

I've only heard that the HS lease will be up, but nothing about what is to happen when the lease is up or how members can help to continue the space.

Mel

Tom Lynch

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Jul 16, 2017, 8:49:54 PM7/16/17
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You need to start by defining the criteria of the new space:

- search area / location (proximity to transport and existing membership)
- budget
- planning use: b1/2
- size of spaces (indoor/outdoor/parking)
- access requirements (loading/pedestrian)
- disability requirements (ramps/lifts)
- technical requirements (internet/power)
- lease length
- cost to make the space usable (fit out costs)
- maintenance costs (lifts/etc)

Those would be initial considerations in an approximate priority list.

Tom Newsom

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Jul 17, 2017, 6:39:17 AM7/17/17
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I was waiting for the 6 month mark to post this very same thread, but now is just as good a time. I just had a look at Zoopla and the property situation seems to have improved a bit since the spring. There's a number of industrial spaces of varying sizes and conditions inside the North Circular, with prices around £10-15/sq.ft (current space is £13). If the will is there, new hackspaces can be made.


On Monday, 17 July 2017 01:20:34 UTC+1, Sci wrote:
I meant it when I said at the beginning of the year that we needed to
start work right away to survive as an entity. We're seven months past
that. I personally cannot see how the LHS is going to survive. I don't
think there's enough positive will or desire from those who have the
skills to perform the tasks required for another transition. There's too
much exhaustion and bad blood. And frankly in that situation, starting
over is the healthy thing to do.

I think this cuts to the core of things. If you're reading this and feel like contributing to running this hackspace would be a waste of your time and energy, then MAKE YOUR OWN! There will be a load of equipment available free or cheap in April next year :)

Jan Szumiec

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:07:37 AM7/17/17
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I think there needs to be a single person driving this forward and perhaps make some executive decisions.

Otherwise, nothing will happen.

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Tom

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:22:19 AM7/17/17
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Well maybe not a single person but a group yes, probably with deligated authority from the Trustees.

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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Paddy Duncan

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:32:22 AM7/17/17
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You might be encouraged to know that the Trustees have not been sitting on their hands, and have been actively checking out the market. Apologies for not providing a running commentary.

It will probably be no surprise to anyone to hear that staying this central, and in one piece, is very unlikely, but one of our number is meeting with council officials today to look at a potential opportunity to do just that. We’ll let you know asap what becomes of that.

In the meantime, please continue this discussion, and if anyone wants to volunteer to help in any capacity feel free to step up.

 

Paddy

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Tom

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:36:42 AM7/17/17
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I’ve been trying to get you guys a contact in the Mayor’s office via Building Bloqs.

FWIW I don’t think anyone is accusing the trustees of doing nothing.

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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Mel

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:44:23 AM7/17/17
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I wasn't, anyways. It was more that people are getting nervous and want to help, but don't really know how best to help.

Tom Newsom

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:52:28 AM7/17/17
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Very encouraging news :)
A running commentary isn't needed, but there has been effective radio silence on the issue since the last thread in Arpil, hence the rather nervous nature of this thread!

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 17, 2017, 8:27:28 AM7/17/17
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There was an extensive thread breaking down locations of current
members, and the basic outcome was that the ideal location for the LHS
is about where it currently is. Or about within a half-mile of it.

I do wonder about survivor bias in the analysis though. Of course
there'll be more members near wherever something is located than far
from it.

Matthew Haynes

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Jul 17, 2017, 8:49:30 AM7/17/17
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A half mile radius from Cambridge Heath is a very small and expensive area. Does that mean that most members (regular users) live within that distance of the space? I certainly don't!

Personally for me someplace in East London with proximity to public transport would suffice, I would be willing to compromise on location in order to keep the space open and available. I wonder if I'm the odd one out though.

Am glad this thread is happening, and happy to help in any way I can.

Dave Mansfield

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Jul 17, 2017, 9:19:05 AM7/17/17
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On Monday, 17 July 2017 13:49:30 UTC+1, Matthew Haynes wrote:
A half mile radius from Cambridge Heath is a very small and expensive area. Does that mean that most members (regular users) live within that distance of the space? I certainly don't!

Nick Reynolds

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Jul 17, 2017, 9:22:49 AM7/17/17
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There was initial discussion about starting an East London space but it seems to have kind of fizzled out, probably because people are busy.

I was quite up for helping with the gruntwork of this, but don't have the connections or experience to drive it myself.

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Matthew Haynes

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Jul 17, 2017, 9:41:18 AM7/17/17
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Thanks, I remember the thread about an alternative east London space but given the difficulty in moving the existing organisation starting an entire new one seems like wishful thinking :)

The Google heat map in the other thread does show a small area but perhaps too small. I'm biased as I have to travel to the space anyway, but surely with a wider search area chances of getting somewhere suitable are much higher. As long as it's near public transport people would still have a good chance of getting access.

A hackspace in leytonstone (for example) is still better than no hackspace IMO.

Paddy Duncan

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Jul 17, 2017, 9:46:13 AM7/17/17
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You are not the odd one out Matthew, and that is just the centre of gravity, which has probably been significantly shaped by the location itself. A departure from the area would induce a shift in that centre of gravity as it, and along with a risk, but I personally agree with you that proximity to good transport is much more important than specific location.
As I said before, the chance of us staying in this area and in one piece are very low, and we have been, and still are, looking in a very wide area...
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Nick Reynolds

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Jul 17, 2017, 9:55:26 AM7/17/17
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I think a lot of the reason for considering a bit of a reboot was because of the various issues with trying to move as-is. If the trustees have got a shot at obtaining similar sized premises that could maintain continuity then that will be great.

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Marrold

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Jul 17, 2017, 10:33:34 AM7/17/17
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I live an hour away from the current location. 15-20 more minutes wont kill me.

Tom Lynch

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Jul 17, 2017, 11:31:00 AM7/17/17
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It's worth noting we've seems number of members join Makerspace after each of these threads so it would be worth considering how it affects the spirit of the community.

Especially for those who live closer to other spaces.

Kind Regards

Tom Lynch
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Mark Steward

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Jul 17, 2017, 11:32:39 AM7/17/17
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I think you've posted this on the wrong thread - laser cutter training is a different issue to where the Hackspace should move to.


Mark

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Adrian Godwin

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Jul 17, 2017, 11:52:43 AM7/17/17
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If it's the only workshop offering big tools, then people will travel to it. So it makes sense to have a big machinery workshop in a more distant zone.

If that splits from the keyboardist hackspace though, there doesn't seem much to differentiate that bit from the coffee shops and makespaces. So could a de-machined space survive the competition ?


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Tom Lynch <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:
I think you overlooked my final point which was further separating out LHS into sub-groups.

You are correct a large enough space won't be found, and frankly the membership needs to wake up to the fact that £5 a month isn't a sustainable minimum membership anymore.

What I am keenly aware of however is there are a lot of Hackspace/Makerspace type organisations across London that offer the basic "light-weight" stuff that but very few that offer that heavier weight workshop, and none that I am aware of that are accessible in the way LHS offers, SMEE and Building Bloqs are two alternative examples but they both have very different models.

What I am saying is sure there should probably be a new London Hackspace organisation formed with an increased membership that gets back the the roots, but perhaps there should also be another organisation formed that focuses on the other stuff, the big workshop tools.

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Lex Robinson

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Jul 17, 2017, 12:12:36 PM7/17/17
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On Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 16:52 Adrian Godwin, <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
If that splits from the keyboardist hackspace though, there doesn't seem much to differentiate that bit from the coffee shops and makespaces. So could a de-machined space survive the competition ?

With an exclusive stranglehold on club mate distribution perhaps?

There's a large range of tools between lathes and laptops, a Hackspace with a small laser cutter, 3d printers, basic wood/metal working equipment and a soldering iron could do well.

henry...@ntlworld.com

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Jul 17, 2017, 1:36:04 PM7/17/17
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Matthew,

As you mentioned Leytonstone, I believe that the old Reuse-IT unit in The Sidings, Leyton is still vacant. I have no details but I know it's owned by the Council (LBWF). Although smaller than the current space, there is an open yard outside for parking. Who should make enquiries about this?

Tom

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Jul 17, 2017, 1:38:26 PM7/17/17
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I would strongly recommend someone local meets your local business and/or culture councillor during one of their surgeries and talk about what you want to do and what space you have in mind.

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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Aden

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Jul 17, 2017, 2:07:41 PM7/17/17
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How about you stick to being patronising on your own mailing list.

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Tom <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:
I would strongly recommend someone local meets your local business and/or culture councillor during one of their surgeries and talk about what you want to do and what space you have in mind.

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

On 17 Jul 2017, at 18:36, henry.best1 via London Hackspace <london-hack-space@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Matthew,

As you mentioned Leytonstone, I believe that the old Reuse-IT unit in The Sidings, Leyton is still vacant. I have no details but I know it's owned by the Council (LBWF). Although smaller than the current space, there is an open yard outside for parking. Who should make enquiries about this?

On Monday, July 17, 2017 at 2:41:18 PM UTC+1, Matthew Haynes wrote:
Thanks, I remember the thread about an alternative east London space but given the difficulty in moving the existing organisation starting an entire new one seems like wishful thinking :)

The Google heat map in the other thread does show a small area but perhaps too small. I'm biased as I have to travel to the space anyway, but surely with a wider search area chances of getting somewhere suitable are much higher. As long as it's near public transport people would still have a good chance of getting access.

A hackspace in leytonstone (for example) is still better than no hackspace IMO.



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Tom

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Jul 17, 2017, 2:15:37 PM7/17/17
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Well thats incredibly rude and unhelpful, I am here trying to help and what exactly are you doing for this community right now?

Mark Steward

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Jul 17, 2017, 2:29:14 PM7/17/17
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OK, it seems there's nothing more valuable to add to this thread currently, so let's drop it here.


Mark

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 7:15 PM, Tom <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:
Well thats incredibly rude and unhelpful, I am here trying to help and what exactly are you doing for this community right now?

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:54:05 PM7/17/17
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A 3D printer and a laser cutter are basic hackspace fodder now. A decent
lathe and mill aren't quite, as they require more actual hands-on
knowledge to use, even with all the "just CNC mod it" appeal.

The old rule of thumb we came up with was to have one small cheap
machine for general light use (learning on) that was essentially
disposable and a more professional machine for those who'd proven they
could be trusted not to wreck it.

It's still nice in theory, though the lack of available training for
bigger machines has let it down.

Remember that some of the people who want to mill their own engine block
have never so much as assembled a Lego set before. A willing spirit
needs to actually get the skills first.

Tom Lynch

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Jul 18, 2017, 3:55:04 AM7/18/17
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You are right they are the minimum requirements but what you guys offer is what makes your space attractive over the dozen other spaces near yours including Machines Room.
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Adrian Godwin

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Jul 18, 2017, 5:22:53 AM7/18/17
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There's much moaning about it - and it does cause problems -  but one of the things that makes LHS useful IMHO is the scrap. Go to one of the other spaces and you might have the opportunity to buy some laser materials. Go to LHS and you'll very likely find a good proportion of what you need to build your project.


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Luca Torrente

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Jul 18, 2017, 5:58:57 AM7/18/17
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Are you fixated on East London? Has South London ever been considered for the location? It will be cheaper.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 at 11:22, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
There's much moaning about it - and it does cause problems -  but one of the things that makes LHS useful IMHO is the scrap. Go to one of the other spaces and you might have the opportunity to buy some laser materials. Go to LHS and you'll very likely find a good proportion of what you need to build your project.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Tom Lynch <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:
You are right they are the minimum requirements but what you guys offer is what makes your space attractive over the dozen other spaces near yours including Machines Room.

> On 18 Jul 2017, at 00:53, Peter Sci Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
>
> A 3D printer and a laser cutter are basic hackspace fodder now. A decent lathe and mill aren't quite, as they require more actual hands-on knowledge to use, even with all the "just CNC mod it" appeal.
>
> The old rule of thumb we came up with was to have one small cheap machine for general light use (learning on) that was essentially disposable and a more professional machine for those who'd proven they could be trusted not to wreck it.
>
> It's still nice in theory, though the lack of available training for bigger machines has let it down.
>
> Remember that some of the people who want to mill their own engine block have never so much as assembled a Lego set before. A willing spirit needs to actually get the skills first.
>
>> On 17/07/2017 17:12, Lex Robinson wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 16:52 Adrian Godwin, <artg...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:artg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>    If that splits from the keyboardist hackspace though, there doesn't
>>    seem much to differentiate that bit from the coffee shops and
>>    makespaces. So could a de-machined space survive the competition ?
>>
>>
>> With an exclusive stranglehold on club mate distribution perhaps?
>>
>> There's a large range of tools between lathes and laptops, a Hackspace
>> with a small laser cutter, 3d printers, basic wood/metal working
>> equipment and a soldering iron could do well.
>
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Yvan Janssens

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Jul 18, 2017, 6:02:28 AM7/18/17
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It's also unreachable.

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 18, 2017, 6:05:01 AM7/18/17
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There's already SLMS and Richmond. Unless LHS offers something substantially different from those, it would be silly to compete.

It's also unreachable.

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Tom Lynch

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Jul 18, 2017, 6:23:13 AM7/18/17
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Actually while it's true there are other spaces it would be great to have one over in Peckham, Clapham, Crystal Palace, Croydon.

There's a misconception that they compete with each other, SLMS has 240 members at the moment for example and there's a space a mile away called Remakery with its own membership. 


Kind Regards

Tom Lynch
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Tom Newsom

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Jul 18, 2017, 10:50:21 AM7/18/17
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Our membership is very tightly concentrated around the space. You could open something completely similar 3 miles away and not be any sort of "competition"

There's supposed to be some sort of Makerspace opening up as part of the "Peckham Levels" project in the multi-story car park, but there aren't many details yet. It's got mayoral funding, but is all a bit "built it and they will come" rather than being based around a grassroots community effort. http://www.peckhamlevels.org/



It's also unreachable.

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Adrian Godwin

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Jul 18, 2017, 10:59:09 AM7/18/17
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Sounds like a good candidate for a takeover :)

We've traditionally looked for spaces in east london on the grounds that people who already come will still come. In fact, very few live nearby. A lot work nearby. I suspect anywhere will actually be fine as long as it's got good transport and offers something unique.

There'll be a dead period while old members disappear (most of the originals have already gone), new members find it  etc. So it's hard to do that transition into a bigger, more expensive space. But there's far more interest in council funded venues than when we started (and LHS can take a lot of credit for that being the case). It may be possible to get started without having to hit the ground running as far as rent goes.

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Paddy Duncan

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Jul 26, 2017, 3:48:20 AM7/26/17
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A quick update: 

The nearby large premise I alluded to on the previous occasion was Hackney Downs School.
It’s 50% more rent and very trashed so we have dismissed the idea. 

In other news, we would like to know what the membership would think about relocating to somewhere like docklands.
Assuming that it would not be in a transport black hole, would it be acceptable?
Note that in order to stay anywhere close to the current location (without a miracle) we’re looking at at least double the rent or half the size, and moving somewhere like E15 could overcome that with change.
Anyway, answers on a postcard please :)
Paddy
signature.asc

Cyrus Razavi

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Jul 26, 2017, 4:29:46 AM7/26/17
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Difficult to answer without being biased, as many members at least originally attracted to LHS by its current location (for example I come in from North on the Lea valley line to cambridge heath) 

But certainly Docklands have lots of cool maker-y things happening, for example one place I discovered recently http://www.trinitybuoywharf.com

A quick update: 
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Michael Wheeler

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Jul 26, 2017, 4:33:24 AM7/26/17
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I'm biased (as I live there) but I'd be 100% ok with a space in docklands. if the right place was found you could have access to at least jubilee and dlr

Billy

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Jul 26, 2017, 4:40:22 AM7/26/17
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Wherever we move to, it will make it more convenient for some members, and more inconvenient for others. That's a given.

Has anyone checked out what soret of commercial mortgage we could get, with our current turnover?

I suggested buying a building last time we had to move, and, while the property prices have gone up, so too, has our turnover.

SMEE did this successfully over a century ago.

Maybe we should do the same?

Simon Howes

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Jul 26, 2017, 5:11:30 AM7/26/17
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a few thoughts on this:

I think we could get by with a smaller cosier hackspace and still get a reasonable amount of good gear in there. 

I think we really should try to be as near as possible to a station - it created the drop-in hangout culture of cremer street which seemed to vanish overnight when suddenly hs was a 20 minute walk from the nearest station.

I think we should really think about storage. I think we should abandon the current membership box for all for a more project based and short-lived automatic system where you get a box like you do a storage request for a couple of weeks at a time only. We just cant afford to have racks of inert and unused boxes anymore.

I think I suggested this last time but it was poo-pood: have a limited, dedicated storage area inside of yellow lines. When its full its full. No items to be stored anywhere else in the hs (in exception of specific subgroups like playwood if you say wanted to store your plank in the wood rack there).  This stops the conflict we have of paintcans being stored on top of machinery, or bits of crap tucked in every corner. And it makes it immediately easy to take stock of what is being stored and what is overdue. And it keeps the space tidy.

I'd like to see hs survive, maybe I'm silly to think it is just the old haunting building we moved to. But maybe something about having it more central and with a cafe styled layout with a social geometric center might make geeks meet and interract more?





On 26 Jul 2017 9:33 a.m., "Michael Wheeler" <mick....@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm biased (as I live there) but I'd be 100% ok with a space in docklands. if the right place was found you could have access to at least jubilee and dlr

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Paddy Duncan

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Jul 26, 2017, 5:38:48 AM7/26/17
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You're sure you don't mean the 'dropout hang-in' culture Simon? ;)

Seriously though, this is an option but how small could we go? For example, if we halved the size for a similar rent, would we be able to sustain the membership required to support it?
There's also of course the nuclear option of starting membership afresh, with new rates, rules and criteria, which has been suggested as a possibility from various sources.


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Aden

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Jul 26, 2017, 6:00:50 AM7/26/17
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More than half the space is full of crap. It would easily fit into half the space if we got rid of all the stuff that's rarely used, membership boxes, and junk.

Could probably fit into quarter of the size if we were ruthless.

How about looking for somewhere half the rent, then looking for a second space if things get cramped and membership doesn't drop off too much?



On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Paddy Duncan <pad...@padski.co.uk> wrote:

You're sure you don't mean the 'dropout hang-in' culture Simon? ;)

Seriously though, this is an option but how small could we go? For example, if we halved the size for a similar rent, would we be able to sustain the membership required to support it?
There's also of course the nuclear option of starting membership afresh, with new rates, rules and criteria, which has been suggested as a possibility from various sources.

On 26 July 2017 10:11:27 a.m. "'Simon Howes' via London Hackspace" <london-hack-space@googlegroups.com> wrote:

a few thoughts on this:

I think we could get by with a smaller cosier hackspace and still get a reasonable amount of good gear in there. 

I think we really should try to be as near as possible to a station - it created the drop-in hangout culture of cremer street which seemed to vanish overnight when suddenly hs was a 20 minute walk from the nearest station.

I think we should really think about storage. I think we should abandon the current membership box for all for a more project based and short-lived automatic system where you get a box like you do a storage request for a couple of weeks at a time only. We just cant afford to have racks of inert and unused boxes anymore.

I think I suggested this last time but it was poo-pood: have a limited, dedicated storage area inside of yellow lines. When its full its full. No items to be stored anywhere else in the hs (in exception of specific subgroups like playwood if you say wanted to store your plank in the wood rack there).  This stops the conflict we have of paintcans being stored on top of machinery, or bits of crap tucked in every corner. And it makes it immediately easy to take stock of what is being stored and what is overdue. And it keeps the space tidy.

I'd like to see hs survive, maybe I'm silly to think it is just the old haunting building we moved to. But maybe something about having it more central and with a cafe styled layout with a social geometric center might make geeks meet and interract more?





On 26 Jul 2017 9:33 a.m., "Michael Wheeler" <mick....@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm biased (as I live there) but I'd be 100% ok with a space in docklands. if the right place was found you could have access to at least jubilee and dlr

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John Perkins

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Jul 26, 2017, 7:28:21 AM7/26/17
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Docklands is good - and the Jubilee line is 24 hours on weekends, same as the Central line.

Shame the DLR won't be until 2021.

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 26, 2017, 9:22:26 AM7/26/17
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A revamp of the storage system would be beneficial. A designated storage
area would solve one of the largest issues; stored items escaping
monitoring.
By permitting storage anywhere in the space, it's near impossible to
track what belongs to members, where they are and when they've over-run
or been abandoned. Poor descriptions of stored items also means we end
up holding onto abandoned items because people aren't sure if they're
stored items or not.

A zoned storage area with some shelves & baskets. We add a "size"
modifier to the storage request system. Small will fit in a basket on
the shelves, Medium will fit on the floor in the designated area, Large
requires specially arranged locating (perhaps items using over 1sq/m
floor space?).

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 26, 2017, 9:59:53 AM7/26/17
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On 26/07/2017 10:38, Paddy Duncan wrote:
> You're sure you don't mean the 'dropout hang-in' culture Simon? ;)
>
> Seriously though, this is an option but how small could we go? For
> example, if we halved the size for a similar rent, would we be able to
> sustain the membership required to support it?
> There's also of course the nuclear option of starting membership afresh,
> with new rates, rules and criteria, which has been suggested as a
> possibility from various sources.

The nuclear option is less so if people are delegated into teams to make
the changes.

Consolidating all the ad-hoc changes over the years into a new clear
starting point would be very beneficial. If nothing else it would help
regain focus on what's trying to be achieved and what's required to
achieve it. It would also be an opportunity to make changes that have
previously been avoided because of perceived disruption it might cause.

Personally I would request something be put in the rules recognising the
wiki as the official source of LHS documentation, rather than the
informal recognition that's allowed documentation to go awry.
I'd be happ.. willing.. to go through and cleanup the wiki again if
it'll be put to more assured use in future.
Likewise official recognition of the 3wk system and lost & found system
would be useful.

Is it possible to have the Discourse integration set up in time for an
LHS reboot?

Also at Cramer St we had a footfall counter to keep track of how many
people were using the space at any particular time. I think the open
evenings are considerably less massive these days, and I think we have a
generally lower peak attendance, so we could get away with space with
less seating. But do we have any actual numbers on current peak
attendance? Because it's always more about how many members are actually
present at any one time than how many members there are total.

Alex Beckett

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Jul 26, 2017, 9:31:05 PM7/26/17
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Personally I'd vote for somewhere near Stratford. Transport links are ace with Jubilee, Central, DLR and national rail. Property prices are also a lot cheaper. 

Gregory Lees

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Jul 27, 2017, 3:40:05 AM7/27/17
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Stratford would be ideal for me, but I imagine it's much harder to find suitable sites than Docklands given all of the industrial units are being knocked down to build flats. It probably also risks the same problem we have currently. However, it does indeed appear to be much cheaper.

http://www.strettons.co.uk/property-search/commercial/property/10278/marshgate-business-centre-1012-marshgate-lane-stratford-london-e15-2nh

Martin (Crypt)

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Jul 27, 2017, 3:49:53 AM7/27/17
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Looks good, but just over half the size of our current space would mean we'd likely have to cut down a bit.  Good find though

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 8:40 AM, Gregory Lees <gle...@gmail.com> wrote:
Stratford would be ideal for me, but I imagine it's much harder to find suitable sites than Docklands given all of the industrial units are being knocked down to build flats.  It probably also risks the same problem we have currently.  However, it does indeed appear to be much cheaper.

http://www.strettons.co.uk/property-search/commercial/property/10278/marshgate-business-centre-1012-marshgate-lane-stratford-london-e15-2nh

Jack London

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Jul 27, 2017, 4:23:00 AM7/27/17
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What is our monthly budget for rent?


On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 4:25:39 PM UTC+1, Sci wrote:
I don't know if it's the start or end of March next year we have until
the lease ends, so 33-37 weeks remain?

I haven't heard any mention of possible new venues. I have however heard
people holding off on contributing to hackspace works in expectation
that it would be wasted effort or how to dispose of large projects &
equipment on site.

It feels that there is a general expectation that the LHS is going to be
coming to an end at the end of this lease. That there is insufficient
community will to continue it in any form.

So are we still looking for new venues or should members start making
preparations to re-accommodate their loaned tools/equipment/storage and
redistribute the community owned tools to other suitable organisations?

Nick Reynolds

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Jul 27, 2017, 4:38:22 AM7/27/17
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High level figures are here...


...I've no idea how up to date they are.

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Jack London

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Jul 27, 2017, 4:43:44 AM7/27/17
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I don't use the space that much, I've been like 5-10 since i joined in January but I'm paying £15 a month (which I thought was the minimum) I know other maker spaces and workshops that charge £50 a month so I think its ridiculous firstly that the minimum fee is £5 a month?!?! Definitely bump that up to £15. I think its still cheap to have access to all that gear. Also it will clear out the people who aren't serious or using the space as a doss house.

Secondly, there are loads of spaces around that would be fine. Theres loads in Lower Clapton on Hommerton. Our rent now is around 7k p/m right? well this is 4k and in stoke newington. + the increase in membership fees - looks like a good space and a healthier cashflow.  https://www.gumtree.com/p/commercial-property-to-rent/huge-2300sqft-warehouse-perfect-art-studio-workshop-yoga-space-new-business-/1247503379

Paddy Duncan

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Jul 27, 2017, 4:48:21 AM7/27/17
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It's not far off.
Rent hasn't changed, business rates have gone up by ~£500


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Paddy Duncan

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Jul 27, 2017, 4:49:53 AM7/27/17
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I'll check it out, as there are several units going...
Thanks


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Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 27, 2017, 9:04:02 AM7/27/17
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So we're actually running at an £800 deficit per month, not £300?

How much do we have in the reserves that we're presumably eating into?

On 27/07/2017 09:48, Paddy Duncan wrote:
> It's not far off.
> Rent hasn't changed, business rates have gone up by ~£500
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 27 July 2017 9:38:28 a.m. "'Nick Reynolds' via London Hackspace"
> <london-h...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> High level figures are here...
>>
>> https://london.hackspace.org.uk/cost-of-hacking/
>>
>> ...I've no idea how up to date they are.
>>
>> On 27 July 2017 at 09:23, Jack London <jacklondo...@gmail.com
>> send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.
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>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Richard Hering

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Jul 27, 2017, 9:32:52 AM7/27/17
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I pay £5 a month as what is in effect a "solidarity" subscription (I've been in LHS half a dozen times since the move to Hackney Road), because I support the project. I couldn't afford to do that if it was £15....

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Jack London

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Jul 27, 2017, 10:21:43 AM7/27/17
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What do you think the space is worth then?

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Tom Newsom

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Jul 27, 2017, 1:43:55 PM7/27/17
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Well that's ok. If there are two of you for every £5 member who *does* continue to pay, then the effect is revenue neutral.

Tom

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Jul 27, 2017, 4:38:01 PM7/27/17
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You aren’t wrong, but that means that those members are subsidising people who aren’t willing to pay what the space is actually worth to them.

It seems like there are people who can’t afford the higher fees who could be waived on a case-by-case basis by the trustees, but there are a lot of people who could afford more and instead other people have to subsidise them.

> On 27 Jul 2017, at 18:43, Tom Newsom <tom.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well that's ok. If there are two of you for every £5 member who *does* continue to pay, then the effect is revenue neutral.
>
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Mark Steward

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Jul 27, 2017, 6:12:57 PM7/27/17
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When you find evidence to back this up, please let us know.


Mark

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Tom

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Jul 27, 2017, 6:21:15 PM7/27/17
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I wasn’t stating a fact, and as you know most spaces don’t maintain much in the way of metrics.

Tom was saying less members paying more money would be cost neutral.

I was stating that the issue with lots of members paying that don’t turn up is that they are subsidising others who don’t pay enough.

When Hackspace was new that might have been a nice thing to do, but given that the average membership payment has gone down over the years it could also be a sign that more members are taking advantage of the inactive members and/or donors.


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Jack London

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Jul 27, 2017, 6:28:06 PM7/27/17
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I just think it's a bit ridiculous that people are paying £5 to be a member at a really good and generous space, have access to many tools and free resources and material. At least make it £10 and double the income from membership fees. 

People saying they can't afford an extra £5 to support the space, just walk next time instead of taking the tube and there's your extra £5 saved

Mark Steward

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Jul 27, 2017, 6:28:43 PM7/27/17
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I know you weren't stating a fact, but you implied you had a good reason for saying it. The suggestion that members are scrounging without evidence is distasteful, and I'd ask you to keep it off the list.

The problems I see are with people not engaging with the space, and a real terms drop in members. You may argue that raising the minimum membership fee will fix that, but I'd argue it won't


Mark

Mark Steward

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Jul 27, 2017, 6:30:33 PM7/27/17
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This assumes they took the tube. Please let's not have this debate again.


Mark

Tom

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Jul 27, 2017, 6:33:43 PM7/27/17
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I’m sorry you feel that way but the membership fees at almost every other space both inside and outside of London are multiple times higher and they seem to be able to balance the needs of members who are less able to pay, the need to sustain a large enough membership, and value for money.

However I agree there is little point arguing for an increase in membership as people pay by standing order and it’s not possible to change the amount they pay for them.


Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 27, 2017, 8:25:56 PM7/27/17
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Plenty of organisations have supporters contributing without direct
benefits or membership. If you include the lower tiers of Patreon
accounts, it's very common indeed now.

On 27/07/2017 14:32, Richard Hering wrote:
> I pay £5 a month as what is in effect a "solidarity" subscription (I've
> been in LHS half a dozen times since the move to Hackney Road), because
> I support the project. I couldn't afford to do that if it was £15....
>
> On 27 Jul 2017 09:43, "Jack London" <jacklondo...@gmail.com
> send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.
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Martin (Crypt)

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Jul 28, 2017, 4:08:59 AM7/28/17
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If you want to start a discussion about membership fees, then I suggest you start another thread.  This thread is about finding a new space and carrying on LHS past the lease expiry.  This is very important, so please don't go so far off topic

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
Plenty of organisations have supporters contributing without direct benefits or membership. If you include the lower tiers of Patreon accounts, it's very common indeed now.

On 27/07/2017 14:32, Richard Hering wrote:
I pay £5 a month as what is in effect a "solidarity" subscription (I've
been in LHS half a dozen times since the move to Hackney Road), because
I support the project. I couldn't afford to do that if it was £15....

On 27 Jul 2017 09:43, "Jack London" <jacklondo...@gmail.com


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Paddy Duncan

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Jul 28, 2017, 6:17:50 AM7/28/17
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If you’ll bear with me for a moment though…

 

In Trustee mode:

 

The vast majority of our income is from members paying small amounts and not visiting.

I thank them very dearly, not only for the financial support enabling us to provide a huge and uncrowded space, but also because it enables us to operate without administrative overhead such as officially tiered membership, means testing, weeding out the pisstakers etc etc., which would test the limits of even the most passionate and dedicated volunteer.

By all means start another thread about it but do note that it’s not the first time this has come up, and the conclusion has always been that what we have may not be perfect but works, and that the perceived problem is not worth the massive upheaval that dealing with it could cause.

I’d agree with Mark regarding what actual issue we are facing, engagement etc., and the Trustees are currently debating the available.

If members have anything to add to that discussion they are most welcome. But in another thread.

 

Paddy

 

 

 

From: 'Martin (Crypt)' via London Hackspace [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: 28 July 2017 09:09
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: 8 months remaining until the lease ends?

 

If you want to start a discussion about membership fees, then I suggest you start another thread.  This thread is about finding a new space and carrying on LHS past the lease expiry.  This is very important, so please don't go so far off topic

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:

Plenty of organisations have supporters contributing without direct benefits or membership. If you include the lower tiers of Patreon accounts, it's very common indeed now.

On 27/07/2017 14:32, Richard Hering wrote:

I pay £5 a month as what is in effect a "solidarity" subscription (I've
been in LHS half a dozen times since the move to Hackney Road), because
I support the project. I couldn't afford to do that if it was £15....

On 27 Jul 2017 09:43, "Jack London" <jacklondo...@gmail.com


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simon tyszko

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Jul 28, 2017, 8:45:22 AM7/28/17
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WEST WEST WEST

hammersmith and fulham council are in really dynamic arts and community mode and having mentioned it at an arts initiative meeting i have been asked to submit a semi formal outline of HS needs to be put to councillors who just may... be able to make us an offer..
anyone want to contact me to discuss or thoughts appreciated 
s

Mark Steward

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Jul 28, 2017, 9:09:05 AM7/28/17
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Dalston/Holloway!


Mark

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Mark Steward

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Jul 28, 2017, 9:10:17 AM7/28/17
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More seriously, is it worth considering splitting into 3 (west, east and north)?


Mark

Lex Robinson

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Jul 28, 2017, 9:59:45 AM7/28/17
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With a single governance and bank account or are we back to the no one stepping up problem?

Dalston/Holloway!


Mark

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Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Jul 28, 2017, 10:21:12 AM7/28/17
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I think "one-managment, multiple venues" option has been previously
ruled out because of how rapidly it would get imbalanced and overly
complex to run.

Splitting means splitting at all levels. If asked though I suspect many
people would be willing to step-up to help get new spaces running with
what's been learnt at the LHS.
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Lex Robinson

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Jul 28, 2017, 6:23:05 PM7/28/17
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Really? Because I've heard of 3 separate attempts to set up independent mini hackspaces and they all fell through due to disagreements & lack of driving force. (Though supposedly one folded because they found out a known troublemaker lived nearby and didn't want to deal with the hell they would cause)

I think setting up a hackspace is a serious commitment of time and resources that many people don't have.
Do you have specific people in mind? Are they interested? Why not start setting something up regardless of LHS's fate?

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Andy Focallocal

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Jul 28, 2017, 6:53:09 PM7/28/17
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last i heard the developer had failed to get planning permission.

someone should head round to the bus next door, Fabio seems to be up to date on whats going on. he has no-expectation of moving on this year, and thinks we're int he same boat

Andy Focallocal

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Jul 28, 2017, 6:56:28 PM7/28/17
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also, has anyone contacted local councils?

two of them have offered my project a space with a year rent free and i'm not even looking anymore, just friends mentioned something and offers came. i haven't accepted yet as they are both zone 5 (and too small for hackspace).

you'd just need to show that you benefit their borough (pretty easy), and can pay the rent, again easy for Hackspace.

sutherl...@gmail.com

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Jul 29, 2017, 6:09:27 AM7/29/17
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It may be easy to say that £5 minimum fee is ridiculous, however for some members this may be appropriate. Not everyone has the blessing of a job, good physical health, good mental health, or an income form other sources such as inheritance, investment, or benefits.
Look at the national health service. Everybody who works pays in, even if they are not sick, so when the people who get sick need treatment, they can get it.
The hackspace doesn't just give access to tools/technology, it gives a nice place to try to get work done, social interaction with like-minded people, a place where you can have a rest and a cup of tea, a creative space, learn useful skills. This place is such a benefit in many ways to members who can't pay, because their economic situation means they need these basic things more, which better-off people take for granted.

On Sunday, 16 July 2017 16:25:39 UTC+1, Sci wrote:

Jan Szumiec

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Jul 29, 2017, 8:51:55 AM7/29/17
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I feel there is a significant difference between the NHS and LHS.


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Tom

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Jul 29, 2017, 8:58:57 AM7/29/17
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There’s ways of doing a £5 minimum without trusting everyone who signs up to be honest, and without penalising people who can’t afford a higher fee, but there isn’t willing to do this and this thread is about finding a new lease, not about membership fees, and folks have asked that it stay on track.

Simon Hewison

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Jul 30, 2017, 7:21:07 AM7/30/17
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In my opinion, the problem is the feasibility of having a space with sufficient room for the variety of equipment that people want to use; If the Hackspace ends up splitting into multiple smaller sites, then the overheads of running multiple smaller spaces will probably increase; so instead of one business rates bill, there's three; instead of one commercial waste contrace, there's three, there's the standing charges for any electricity supply and so on, and that's before you have to deal with three sets of landlords; and if it splits into multiple distinct subscription services, that adds barriers to actually being able to complete any project.

It also means you don't have to traipse for hours across London to get access to a particular tool that happens to be in a different building to finish a project. The great advantage of the Hackspace in it's current form is that you get to be able to do most of any project work in one place, that you meet likeminded people, share experiences and advice.

That said, our current building isn't ideal - and if we're looking at other locations, it's things to bear in mind; the workshop downstairs floods regularly and has no adequate ventilation. It has some very good points that make up for it - the yard is very handy, the location is convenient for many (not for me, but I don't mind travelling for nearly an hour to reach a good facility).

so there, I've said my bit. If I spot any suitable locations up for lease, I'll let the list know.
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