[lojban] Re: E-Prime & Lojban
Luke Bergen
"How would you say "I'm here", for instance?"=>
"I occupy place at this location".
I like the intention of this language very much ... oops!
2009/9/11 Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com>sometimes when I'm figuring out how to say what I want to say in my head I'll throw in an unnecessary {cu} because it sounds right due to an english {is}.
That E-Prime thing looks interesting. But it seems like there would be some things in english that you simply couldn't say without using a "to be" form of verb.
How would you say "I'm here", for instance?On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:09 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wrote:
What do you think of E-Prime?
Does the practice of Lojban discourage uses of "to be" in English? We
seem to frequent the form of "lo skina cu pluka" more than the form of
"lo skina cu me lo pluka", in which "me" may roughly correspond to the
English copula "be", as in "the movie is good". Could this mean that
Lojban has some bearings on the discipline of E-Prime?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
mu'o jundi mi'e tijlan
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Arnt Richard Johansen
> What do you think of E-Prime?
E-Prime is a variant of English that forbids constructions where the copula verb "to be" is obligatory. Supposedly, this changes communication and possibly also thought by making subjective judgements more overt.
The problem is that the copula in English is a purely superficial part of the grammar, which is almost completely separate from the semantic layer. So merely reformulating sentences without copulas has no bearing on "judgementalness", "Aristotelian essentialism" &c. It is easy to show that this is the case by "translating" the following sentences from http://nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm in a way that conforms to the rules of E-Prime, yet undermines its purpose.
1A. The electron is a wave.
We consider the electron a wave.
2A. The electron is a particle.
We consider the electron a particle.
3A. John is lethargic and unhappy.
John lacks energy and has a bad mood.
4A. John is bright and cheerful.
John bursts with energy and cheerfulness.
5A. This is the knife the first man used to stab the second man.
The first man stabbed the second man with this knife.
6A. The car involved in the hit-and-run accident was a blue Ford.
The driver of a blue Ford hit a person and then drove off.
7A. This is a fascist idea.
This idea bears all the hallmarks of fascism.
8A. Beethoven is better than Mozart.
Beethoven's work exceeds that of Mozart in quality.
9A. That is a sexist movie.
This movie reeks of sexism.
10A. The fetus is a person.
A fetus becomes a person the moment the sperm enters the egg.
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
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Adam D. Lopresto
they intend.
Nonetheless, it appears to me that the structure of Lojban would not help
further the goals of E-Prime at all. Quoting from the article:
------
In the English language, the verb 'to be' has several distinct functions:
* identity, of the form "noun copula noun" [The cat is an animal]
* predication, of the form "noun copula adjective" [The cat is furry]
* auxiliary, of the form "noun copula verb" [The cat is sleeping];
[The cat is bitten by the dog]
* existence, of the form "copula noun" [There is a cat]
* location, of the form "noun copula place" [The cat is on
the mat]
Bourland sees specifically the "identity" and "predication" functions as
pernicious, but advocates eliminating all forms for the sake of simplicity.
------
Lojban uses predication extensively, almost exclusively. It seems like
E-Prime wants to put a distancing verb in place of a form of "to be", so that
"The cat is red" becomes something like "The cat appears red [to me, under
this light." The natural Lojban form ({le mlatu cu xurne}), while omitting an
explicit copula, seems equivalent to the deprecated English version.
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, tijlan wrote:
> What do you think of E-Prime?
>
> Does the practice of Lojban discourage uses of "to be" in English? We
> seem to frequent the form of "lo skina cu pluka" more than the form of
> "lo skina cu me lo pluka", in which "me" may roughly correspond to the
> English copula "be", as in "the movie is good". Could this mean that
> Lojban has some bearings on the discipline of E-Prime?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
>
> mu'o jundi mi'e tijlan
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-li...@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secr...@lojban.org for help.
>
--
Adam Lopresto
http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/
Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16
bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4
bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1
bit of competition.
Luke Bergen
That E-Prime thing looks interesting. But it seems like there would be some things in english that you simply couldn't say without using a "to be" form of verb.
How would you say "I'm here", for instance?
Morphem...@wmconnect.com
"How would you say "I'm here", for instance?"
=>
"I occupy place at this location".
I like the intention of this language very much ... oops!
E-Prime should still sound like native English. Anything as clumsy as "I occupy place (or space) at this location" would be unacceptable.
I suggest "I've come here" or "I've arrived" or even "I plan to spend a week here before leaving again" (to elaborate a little).
I have doubts whether using only E-Prime is worthwhile, but as a way of clarifying one's thoughts, I think it's great.
stevo
Mikael Hall
"I occupy place at this location".
I like the intention of this language very much ... oops!
Morphem...@wmconnect.com
I find e-prime interesting though, because lojban attempts to state "facts" primarily, while e-prime want you to focus on "beliefs" - like the "frequentist" vs "bayesian" view of statistics
Really? I've never encountered this accompanying belief system in reading about E-prime.
stevo
Mikael Hall
The following is taken at the site "http://nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm" :
"
Consider the following paired sets of propositions, in which Standard English alternates with English-Prime (E-Prime):
- lA. The electron is a wave.
- lB. The electron appears as a wave when measured with instrument-l.
-
- 2A. The electron is a particle.
- 2B. The electron appears as a particle when measured with instrument-2.
-
- 3A. John is lethargic and unhappy.
- 3B. John appears lethargic and unhappy in the office.
-
- 4A. John is bright and cheerful.
- 4B. John appears bright and cheerful on holiday at the beach.
-
- 5A. This is the knife the first man used to stab the second man.
- 5B. The first man appeared to stab the second man with what looked like a knife to me.
-
- 6A. The car involved in the hit-and-run accident was a blue Ford.
- 6B. In memory, I think I recall the car involved in the hit-and-run accident as a blue Ford.
-
- 7A. This is a fascist idea.
- 7B. This seems like a fascist idea to me.
-
- 8A. Beethoven is better than Mozart.
- 8B. In my present mixed state of musical education and ignorance, Beethoven seems better to me than Mozart.
-
- 9A. That is a sexist movie.
- 9B. That seems like a sexist movie to me.
-
- 10A. The fetus is a person.
- 10B. In my system of metaphysics, I classify the fetus as a person.
"
Mikael Hall
tijlan
Mikael Hall
My own "bearing" on lojban as being a language with "naive realism" as "focus" comes from the fact that predicate logic is its base. E-prime, regardless if it has such goals explicitly stated or not, hinders dogmatism by not being the obvius default as it is in english (etc) now. Dogmatism happens to always be connected to a strong sense of being right, which is a sort of realistic stance.
Mikael Hall
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Morphem...@wmconnect.com
The "A"-type statements (Standard English) all implicitly or explicitly assume the medieval view called "Aristotelian essentialism" or "naive realism."
The "B"-type statements (E-Prime) recast these sentences into a form isomorphic to modern science by first abolishing the "is" of Aristotelian essence and then reformulating each observation in terms of signals received and interpreted by a body (or instrument) moving in space-time.
This states that there are two parts to this form of E-Prime:
1) recasting the sentences into a form isomorphic to modern science by first abolishing the "is" of Aristotelian essence and then
2) reformulating each observation in terms of signals received and interpreted by a body (or instrument) moving in space-time.
I was aware only of the first part, and even then, only as simple replacement of "be" with more appropriate words, rephrasing as necessary.
The rest of 1 and all of 2 may be more truthful and contain more information based on the senses, but they are also more cumbersome. I suppose with practice one might become adept at not thinking and expressing oneself in such cumbersome ways, but for the time being (!) I'll just leave out "be" when I want to practice E-Prime.
Thanks for the link.
stevo
Mikael Hall
I find e-prime interesting though, because lojban attempts to state "facts" primarily, while e-prime want you to focus on "beliefs" - like the "frequentist" vs "bayesian" view of statistics ... oops!
:)
I can be very sloppy when I have'nt sleept enough.
Sorry.
psy...@126.com
在 2009年9月12日星期六 UTC+8上午1:19:20，Arnt Richard Johansen写道：