BPFK has approved cmavo swaps

[selpahi]

Just letting you know that BPFK has finally decided to switch some cmavo
around. {ce'u} becomes {ce}, {ke'a} becomes {ki}, {tu'a} becomes {tau},
and {su'o} becomes {su}.

We also moved to other mediums of communication, because the BPFK list
format was just too cumbersome. Text and voice chat proved more efficient.

Whatever.

~~~mi'e la selpa'i

[suzanys]

What is the motivation for this change?

[Remo Dentato]

What about the old cmavo? Are they just to be considered "deprecated" or will they be assigned a new meaning?

I guess this change will be documented in jbovlaste (at least), right?

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[Ian Johnson]

I think the idea is to swap them, so that e.g. the ma'oste meaning of {ki} is obtained by using {ke'a}.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

[Remo Dentato]

Oh! I see. I guess this has been done to assign shorter cmavo to the more frequently used meaning.

I had not seen any discussion about this topic, but I'm probably at fault here not having much time to work on lojbanic stuff.

[Ian Johnson]

It has been a dialect colloquially referred to as ce ki tau jau for a while now.

[Thomas Porter]

>Just letting you know that BPFK has finally decided to switch some cmavo  around. {ce'u} becomes {ce}, {ke'a} becomes {ki}, {tu'a} becomes {tau}, 

> and {su'o} becomes {su}.

For what purpose?

[guskant]

doi la selpa'i
bu'u ma cmicu'a i mi pu na kakne lo nu kansa lo nuncasnu i xu ca ku mi
na cmima byfy
mi'e la guskant

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[Ian Johnson]

The words that are now shorter are used much more than those that are now longer.

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[Thomas Porter]

>The words that are now shorter are used much more than those that are now longer.

Why wasn't this always the case? Why change it now?

[Ian Johnson]

So some folks have already been speaking ce ki tau jau. Other than that I can't really say.

On Sep 12, 2016 7:36 PM, "Thomas Porter" <osiris_hade...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>The words that are now shorter are used much more than those that are now longer.

Why wasn't this always the case? Why change it now?

--

[Remo Dentato]

I'm not really participating much to the Lojban community but I can't see how the gain of having shorter words can compensate the loss of compatibility with the current tools and the need of the update the grammar(s) and generating confusion with the existing texts.

As one who provided some translation to the the lojban corpus in the past, I would have preferred this not to happen. I hope there are plans to fix the grammar and the tools, I believe that having a formal grammar for the language is what makes Lojban stand above the other conlangs, if we start breaking it I fear we won't last long.

I'm not against changes but weighting the pros and cons of this change I don't see the benefit.

Just my 2c.

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:41 AM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:

So some folks have already been speaking ce ki tau jau. Other than that I can't really say.

[selpahi]

la .guskant. pu ciska di'e

> doi la selpa'i
> bu'u ma cmicu'a i mi pu na kakne lo nu kansa lo nuncasnu i xu ca ku mi
> na cmima byfy
> mi'e la guskant

doi la .guskant. .i BPFK pu jdice no da .i mi pu xamsku sa'e nai .i
cipra fi lo mriste jbopre fe lo ka xu kau ce'u za'o su'o va'e lo ka
jundi .i mi zgana lo nu mu'a no da spusku fi la uakci ca tu'a lo
pemkarni .i mi badri lo nu si'au no lo pu mriste jbopre ca se vajni lo
du'u ma kau fasnu .i li'a do cmima byfy. .i nu'e sai do, no da zo'u mi
ba catni jdice da fau lo nu na retsku fi do gi'a na menrygau do lo casnu
.i .a'o mi pu na gasnu lo nu do xanka .i za'a ba'e *do* za'o se vajni .i
.a'o do zanfri gi'e ba xruti lo ka pagbu lo cecmu (to ga'a mi do ru'i
pagbu toi) .i mi'a pacna denpa tu'a lo skina pe do io di'ai do

[selpahi]

It's time to clear this up.

I was joking (though I was and am in no way amused).

Nothing new has been approved by the BPFK. I was just trying to see if
anyone was still paying attention to the mailing list. A few people have
responded, and I'm happy to see that the responses were very mature, but
most people seem to simply ignore everything that happens.

Many people only ever speak up when they have something to complain
about (usually whenever something appears to be changing). Why do none
of those people ever participate in anything constructive? Why has
everyone been ignoring la uakci's many attempts at getting the community
to participate in things like his interactive story or the weekly poems?
How hard is it to respond with "Nice work, I'm looking forward to the
next issue"? You managed to frustrate them so much that they have now
left the mailing list. la uakci is one of the most promising new jbopre
in the world, and it is a terrible choice to ignore their efforts and
risk losing them because they receive nothing in return.

la uakci's situation is but one of many similar occurences, all of which
seem to say nothing but "We don't care about what you do with Lojban and
we don't do anything with it ourselves either, but don't you dare allow
anything to change".

If you keep ignoring valuable people, you have no right to be surprised
when they leave and take their talents elsewhere. Don't complain later
when you didn't realize that Lojban changed right under your nose but
you never cared to look. la uakci will keep producing Lojban content but
you will no longer get to see it.

Lojban belongs in the hands of those who act, and sadly, you are not one
of them. Why aren't you? And why spoil it for those who actually care?

[gleki.is...@gmail.com]

i la lojbab jo'u mi pu zi ku jdice lo du'u no da prali de lo ka se bangu la lojban vau vau e lo du'u lo gaspo cu zmadu zabna i ei ma'a co'a se bangu lo gaspo

[And Rosta]

On 13 September 2016 at 13:08, selpahi <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:

Nothing new has been approved by the BPFK.

That's disappointing. I had been surprised that the proposal was so piecemeal and so flagrantly progressive, but of course also pleased that in fixing some of what is broken, the BPFK would take a broad view of what counts as brokenness.

(On the matter of online Lojban communities, the List is the only one I belong to, but surely it is true that the centres of activity must have moved elsewhere.)

--And.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2016-09-13 15:43 GMT+03:00 And Rosta <and....@gmail.com>:

(On the matter of online Lojban communities, the List is the only one I belong to, but surely it is true that the centres of activity must have moved elsewhere.)

One might think of developing bridges to other networks like the one Robin once made ("tiki - mailing list" bridge). But in general it's not trivial, .uinai. Investors are not interested in that.

[Michael Turniansky]

oicai  ba'u xajmi  .i mi zo'onai pupu'o gubysku lo se du'u mi ai cliva le jboce'u ji'e lo cimnytei .i mi na ka'e tavla fo le pe'a magbau 

ni'o la uakci zo'u mi zu'edji lo se gunka pe la uakci . i ku'i mi ca tcidu lo se samymri be de'i li pare pi'e pi'e  pa ku to lo glico jo'u lo lojbo toi .i mi xenru lo du'u mi na banzu co sutra tu'a ubu

     --gejyspa

[guskant]

je'e la selpa'i 

mi klaku lo jisra be lo si'o gleki kei lo nu do xendo mi i mi za'o culno lo nu skina kei ce'o cu jundi lo pemkarni

mi'e la guskant jo'au zantufa xi papipaxa

[Remo Dentato]

Since I am one of those that very rarely speak, let me explain what is happening for me (and I suspect to many others).

I contributed to the community various artifacts: translation of children books, translation of comics, cheat sheets (I'm particurarly proud of the "pro-sumti periodic table") and one of the few (if not the only one) crossword puzzle in Lojban.  I did get very little feedback on what I contributed but I did it hoping someone would found them useful at a later time.

Then my interest faded a bit and I devoted my little free time to other things.

Still I see the same thing happening in "waves": a group of people contributes some stuff, then they disappear, someone else picks up those stuff or start something from scratch. And so on ...

I do appreciate what uakci and selpa'i do for the community, and what Robin does! and all the others.

Drastic changes would stop this "waves" as they would make obsolete what has been done already (see the effect of the "great rafsi reallocation") that's why I felt the need of object.  Just a little, of course. Since I'm not contributing at the moment, I am not entitled to really complain.

I hope I will have more time (and more interest) to contribute in the future.

.la.remod.

[Thomas Porter]

>Many people only ever speak up when they have something to complain  about (usually whenever something appears to be changing). 

A young couple adopt a German baby. Throughout his childhood the little boy is perfectly normal, except for the fact he never speaks a single word. Being the caring parents they are, they have him tested by every expert in every possible way to find out what is wrong with him but nothing ever comes up. One day, however, shortly after the boy’s 5th birthday,  after lunch he suddenly asserts: “This strudel is tepid.”

His parents are completely puzzled yet amazed: “Heinrich! What’s been wrong? How come you talk all of a sudden? Why haven’t you spoken before?”

The boy turns to his parents and replies imperturbably : “Until now, everything has been satisfactory.”

>Why do none of those people ever participate in anything constructive? Why has  everyone been ignoring la uakci's many attempts at getting the community
>to participate in things like his interactive story or the weekly poems?

Because we don't care about a nebulous idea of "community"; we're not Esperantists and we're not seeking intercultural exchange. We only want a language that functions as spoken logic. Had Loglan a greater following and more materials, it would be chosen instead.

>How hard is it to respond with "Nice work, I'm looking forward to the  next issue"? You managed to frustrate them so much that they have now

l>eft the mailing list. la uakci is one of the most promising new jbopre in the world, and it is a terrible choice to ignore their efforts and

>risk losing them because they receive nothing in return.

When you choose an obscure hobby like invented language learning, you can't do it for accolades or attention. You have to do it because there is something it offers that natural languages do not. It is a deeply personal and isolating hobby.

>Lojban belongs in the hands of those who act, and sadly, you are not one of them. Why aren't you? And why spoil it for those who actually care?

Lojban belongs only to itself. We are its inheritors, but never its master.

[Christa Hansberry]

I have never seen a very active Google Group. In fact, this one, for all your complaining about lack of participation, is the most active one I've seen! Of course people have taken their activity elsewhere; Google Groups are outmoded. No reason to cause pandemonium about it!

[Jorge Llambías]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:37 AM, selpahi <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:

doi la .guskant. .i BPFK pu jdice no da .i mi pu xamsku sa'e nai .i cipra fi lo mriste jbopre fe lo ka xu kau ce'u za'o su'o va'e lo ka jundi 

u'i ua nai .i mi ji'a pu krici lo du'u jetnu .i mi pu pensi lo nu pante lo nu jdice se cau lo nu banzu casnu .i ku'i je'u mi na pu tolzau lo sidbo .i u'u mi na dunda lo mutce temci la lojban ca lo ca cedra

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Timothy Lawrence]

> > I was just trying to see if anyone was still paying attention to the mailing list

I was watching to see how it unfolded before publicly judging.

> > Why do none of those people ever participate in anything constructive?

I do.

Anyone else want to help formalise the website maintenance project and set up project management software for all Lojbanists to use freely? I've been submitting what I think to be constructive ideas.

I just need access to a server to install these things, if approved. I've even offered to pay for server space, if necessary and reasonable.

> > Why has  everyone been ignoring la uakci's many attempts at getting the community to participate in things like his interactive story or the weekly poems?

Not everyone. I participated and this entire site is because of uakci's efforts https://kibykarni.wordpress.com/ but I am a "mailing list exclusive". It may look small but it took me hours and I learnt much.

> > How hard is it to respond with "Nice work, I'm looking forward to the next issue"? 

I honestly assumed that those sort of responses aren't appreciated on mailing lists due to email volume concerns. This presumed etiquette may be why the community seems a bit cold on this sort of medium, when it isn't actually quite so. I did thank uakci privately.

> Because we don't care about a nebulous idea of "community"; we're not Esperantists and we're not seeking intercultural exchange.

Not all of us. I care very much about the community and I want to help grow it.

It's a language, after all, which makes little sense to learn without some others to speak with.

Beyond that, I think humanity really needs a language that democratises logic and clear thinking.

---

From: loj...@googlegroups.com <loj...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Thomas Porter <osiris_hade...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2016 4:44 AM
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps

 

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[Auke L. Klazema]

Thanks for the uplifting response.

loj...@googlegroups.com schreef:

Verzonden via Firefox OS

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2016-09-14 2:19 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au>:

I just need access to a server to install these things, if approved. I've even offered to pay for server space, if necessary and reasonable.

For now you may try with static websites. They don't require paying for anything. When the community decides on the final design we'll ask LLG to deploy it on lojban.org on the servers provided to us by our system administrator.

[Joshua Proehl]

 most people seem to simply ignore everything that happens.

Many people only ever speak up when they have something to complain about (usually whenever something appears to be changing). Why do none of those people ever participate in anything constructive? Why has everyone been ignoring la uakci's many attempts at getting the community to participate in things like his interactive story or the weekly poems?

I read the mailing lists, and I enjoy the practice of reading content in Lojban. However I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lojban, and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk.

It's a problem I've had both in learning Lojban and German. Learning to produce (write/speak) the language is a completely different skillset than learning to understand it, and requires a lot of feedback and corrections. Neither of the mailing lists are the place for that sort of content, nor a particularly good medium. Were I to contribute content in lojban for poems/newsletters it would place a significant editing burden on somebody, as I'm simply not up to that level of fluency yet on the creation side.

(Solving this problem seems non-trivial. I've considered doing some software development to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the language you're learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct specific parts, but in order to be valuable you need the community of fluent speakers to dedicate time to making corrections/comments reliably, and I'm not sure if Lojban has the critical mass to make it worth developing.)

I appreciate the content! It's wonderful! Were there a "upvote" button on email I would utilize it, but I agree with Timothy Lawrence that it's an email/mailing-list etiquette issue. More content to learn from is *always* appreciated though, for the record! :-)

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2016-09-15 6:33 GMT+03:00 Joshua Proehl <joshua...@gmail.com>:

(Solving this problem seems non-trivial. I've considered doing some software development to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the language you're learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct specific parts, but in order to be valuable you need the community of fluent speakers to dedicate time to making corrections/comments reliably, and I'm not sure if Lojban has the critical mass to make it worth developing.)

Neither am I sure but fluent speaker also appear from talking to each other and listening to others talking to each other. So maybe that will help you.

[Michael Turniansky]

Joshua,

   You'd be surprised.  There's a lot of people who, when presented with the statement, "I've written X.  Could someone please look at it and give me feedback/suggestions?" (either here or on the beginner list) will do so.  I've certainly had a lot of feedback on stuff I've done, and when people have questioned why I made certain choices, I've explained myself, or acquiesced to their suggestions, or worked with them to find a compromise.

       --gejyspa, still reading mail from Jan 20 or so

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[Timothy Lawrence]

For developing the static website proposal, that's fine to do for free.

For trialling the Phabricator project management software, we'll need hosting :)

---

From: loj...@googlegroups.com <loj...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2016 7:22 PM

To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps

2016-09-14 2:19 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au>:

I just need access to a server to install these things, if approved. I've even offered to pay for server space, if necessary and reasonable.

For now you may try with static websites. They don't require paying for anything. When the community decides on the final design we'll ask LLG to deploy it on lojban.org on the servers provided to us by our system administrator.

--

[Timothy Lawrence]

> I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lojban, and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk. 

I think a lot of learners feel like they would be imposing, but it is a massive catch-22: if they don't "impose" they won't get good enough that they'll no longer be "imposing". The same has happened to me, so I've tried to get more active :)

I would like the website to more explicitly encourage would-be lurkers to get active and participate, not fearing making mistakes. This is what I have meant with my ideas about a formalised mentoring process. It doesn't have to be mentoring per se, but just an explicit "talk to people! connect!" in the website somewhere. There really are so many people who very kindly love helping others learn Lojban.

Humans are social animals, so we can't sustain motivation to learn a language alone indefinitely. My experience has been that others love beginners joining the community and trying (regardless of any mistakes).

> I'm simply not up to that level of fluency yet on the creation side. 

In martial arts, sometimes beginners use a sparring dummy before practising with real persons. Lojban, being a language suitable for human-computer interaction, could have a dumb chatbot for "sparring" practice before talking with real persons. I did a really basic mockup here to show the concept https://jsfiddle.net/gxextk82/10/ Once a user has exhausted its repertoire of phrases, the bot could recommended the user should connect with the community now that they feel a bit more confident.

Anyone, let me know if you want to collaborate on such a project.

> I've considered doing some software development to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the language you're learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct specific parts

Such software exists already (e.g. Phabricator, or GitHub, or any normal code review software).

la suzanys and I are hoping to push for a Phabricator platform that will help facilitate this and other Lojbanic projects :) We might be able to all collaborate on a publication together.

---

From: loj...@googlegroups.com <loj...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joshua Proehl <joshua...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2016 1:33 PM

To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps

[Wei Tang]

Hi all,

Just in case we want to use Phabricator for project management: I have a Phabricator instance that is used to host some of my personal projects, which has been running for more than a year. It is not heavily used, so I can offer it for Lojban users for any testing purpose. Here's the url: https://source.that.world

Until next time, have fun!

-- Wei

P.S. Don't know whether that would be a good fit, because Phabricator is mainly for code review, and stuff like that.

[Curtis Franks]

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/ce_ki_tau_jau

I have always been of the opinion that this change is nearly a waste of effort, even just ignoring the loss of back-compatibility, since it actually fixes nothing that is actually broken or glitchy in the language (we could focus on other issues or further development), but okay. I am not strongly opposed, just annoyed.

[Timothy Lawrence]

coi

.i.ui mi mutce ckire do

Thanks very much indeed!

I am going to create an account there, "timoteios", if that's okay. We would like to see if we can use it for hosting a Lojban website proposal and perhaps other projects.

Let us know at any time if we are overstaying our welcome!

ki'e cai do.

i mi'e la timoteios.

---

From: Wei Tang <sor...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:11 PM
To: lojban
Cc: Timothy Lawrence

[Curtis Franks]

*grins sheepishly*

I just actually read further than the first post (because I was trying to find proof/documentation). Points received. I admit fault in this matter and am deeply sorry that the project failed and that we lost another interested person.

[Wei Tang]

Hi Timothy,

Great! Hope you find it useful.

I once had a partial translation to Lojban for the Phabricator interface. It is for an older version, unfortunately. I'll look for the code, and see whether there's something useful I can do with it.

Until next time,

-- Wei

[Remo Dentato]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Timothy Lawrence <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:

I did a really basic mockup here to show the concept https://jsfiddle.net/gxextk82/10/

The idea of a lojban chatbot is great. I believe it has been attempted previously but I don't know if anything came out.

Even something at the level of the old "Eliza" would be good (and something closer to Siri or Cortana would be a dream :) ).

[Martin Bays]

* Friday, 2016-09-16 at 11:20 +0200 - Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com>:

> The idea of a lojban chatbot is great. I believe it has been attempted
> previously but I don't know if anything came out.
>
> Even something at the level of the old "Eliza" would be good (and something
> closer to Siri or Cortana would be a dream :) ).

For learning lojban, I think more appropriate than an
intelligence-faking Eliza-style chatbot would be something like SHRDLU:
a system which can react accurately to the precise logical content of
your utterances.

This was actually the original aim of the project which ended up as
la tersmus.... I continue to vaguely plan to get back to it one day, but
I'd also be happy if someone else did it first!

[Michael Turniansky]

Well, as far as SHRDLU-like goes (ah, good ol' Terry Winograd.  I read his Understanding Natural Language in 1979.), we do have cakyrespa (assuming it still exists) at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cakyrespa which while not being shrdlu exactly,is a LOGO-like lojban interface.

          --gejyspa

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[Timothy Lawrence]

Is there already a page on the Lojban wiki about a Lojban training chatbot? If not, I can start one. It doesn't have to be an IRC bot, so I wouldn't reuse that page. This chatbot could be one just embedded in a public webpage, in my mind, that a learner can use before they commit to IRC etc. (there is a high learning curve with IRC for many).

A semi-intelligent Eliza-style chatbot would be good as a first-step for learners, in my opinion, to teach the learner all the high-priority conversation and "emergency" words.

Something like SHRDLU sounds like it could become a great game/toy for learning the space/tense system especially :)

That might be more of a second step for the learner after the Eliza-style one, I am thinking.

---

From: loj...@googlegroups.com <loj...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Michael Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 7:53 PM

To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps

Well, as far as SHRDLU-like goes (ah, good ol' Terry Winograd.  I read his Understanding Natural Language in 1979.), we do have cakyrespa (assuming it still exists) at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cakyrespa which while not being shrdlu exactly,is a LOGO-like lojban interface.

          --gejyspa

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 5:33 AM, Martin Bays <mb...@sdf.org> wrote:

* Friday, 2016-09-16 at 11:20 +0200 - Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com>:

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Timothy Lawrence <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:

I did a really basic mockup here to show the concept https://jsfiddle.net/gxextk82/10/

> The idea of a lojban chatbot is great. I believe it has been attempted
> previously but I don't know if anything came out.
>
> Even something at the level of the old "Eliza" would be good (and something
> closer to Siri or Cortana would be a dream :) ).

[selpahi]

In the meantime, could you maybe fix the current instance running on
IRC? It isn't responding anymore.