a different weekday proposal

[Stela Selckiku]

Since we're back on weekdays, going around the same arguments as
usual, I thought I'd try proposing something new. Numbers are
arbitrary, and there exist several contradictory systems in the world
so they could be confusing. The cimjvo we borrowed from Japanese or
whatever are just as arbitrary to most Lojbanists, and many people
feel they violate our longstanding (if rarely achieved) goal of being
za'e klunu'i (kulnu zei nutli, culturally neutral). So here's an
entirely different idea:

Let's make new lujvo for the weekdays (and perhaps months, etc) with
meaning in Lojbanic culture. We could simply choose things to do on
the various days of the week, and name the days for what we've decided
to do on them! Then the seven names of the days of the week won't
just be some arbitrary facts to learn, but rather important meaningful
facts that will tie new Lojbanists closer to our culture, and that
will enrich and deepen our culture.

Here are a few random ideas I thought of, just to prime the pump.
Back when I was doing the .jefnuz. project, I was putting out the
weekly news on the same day every week, I think it was Sunday. So we
could restart a weekly news project, and the day the news came out
could be known as za'e "nuzdei" (nuzba zei djedi, news day). Another
random idea: We could have a day for acting silly, and call it za'e
"bebdei" (bebna zei djedi, fool day).

Anyone else have an idea for a Lojbanic weekday?

mi'e

la stela selckiku

mu'o

[Jonathan Jones]

I am not going to comment on this, as my reasons for disliking the concept scheme are based on it not being systematic, and while your suggestion is a good one, it's still not systematic. I shall lurk, however, as I am interested in this discussion. ;)

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Lindar]

gundei - workday (monday)
lumdei - washday (tuesday)
mijdei - middleday (wednesday)
datydei - otherday (thursday)
lejdei - payday (friday)
sladei - partyday (saturday)
surdei - restday (sunday)

I'm particularly fond of gundei, mijdei, lejdei, sladei, and surdei. I
couldn't think of anything interesting/clever/reasonable for Tuesday
and Thursday.

However, see the other thread for a different suggestion.

[Balon_]

coi

Proposition of Lindar is culturaly non-neutral.

In some cultures and countries Sunday is not restday. Sunday is
workday.

partyday in Saturday is specific to western culture.

mijdei should be thursday not wednesday.

Why tuesday is washday?

Why friday is payday?


.i lo plini cmevla ku xamgu lo jefdei cmevla ku

Or curren sistem.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Wednesday 06 October 2010 02:28:53 Lindar wrote:
> gundei - workday (monday)
> lumdei - washday (tuesday)
> mijdei - middleday (wednesday)
> datydei - otherday (thursday)
> lejdei - payday (friday)
> sladei - partyday (saturday)
> surdei - restday (sunday)

lo derdei .enai lo soldei cu surdei .isa'e lo surdei cu jimdei bo solnuncanci
bi'o derdei bo solnuncanci

I prefer "fagdei" etc., but have a hard time remembering which is which of the
middle three. The kanji for them look more similar to me than any of the
other four do. Can you help me remember the order?

mu'omi'e .pier.
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

[Jorge Llambías]

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 8:25 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>
> I prefer "fagdei" etc., but have a hard time remembering which is which of the
> middle three. The kanji for them look more similar to me than any of the
> other four do. Can you help me remember the order?

The mnemonic I use is that the days become more solid as the week progresses:

fagdei -> jaurdei -> mudydei -> jimdei

derdei may not quite fit, but we don't have trouble with that one.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Michael Turniansky]

2010/10/6 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

Okay here is my proposal (starting on Wednesday in a foolhardy
attempt to be culturally neutral)

zarskugejyspadei ( Wednesday)
kirgejyspadei (Thursday)
lejgejyspadei (Friday)
djugejyspadei (Saturday)
cevgaugejyspade (Sunday)
pukygejyspadei (Monday)
kelkangejyspadei (Tuesday)

I'm sure everyone can see how this sytem is logical, culturally
neutral, easy to remember, and benefical to the jobce'u. I expect it
to be universaaly adopted forthwith.

--gejyspa

[Michael Turniansky]

Okay, this time, an actually SERIOUS proposal which just occurred to
me as I was going to get a soda. It answers the objections to the
previous systems... 1) it is culturally neutral, AFAIK 2) it is
rational, as it relates the members of one ordered seven-cycle to
another ordered seven cycle. Here is my proposal:

xundei, najdei, peldei, ri'odje, cicnydei, bladei, zirdei

I suggest for the sake of cultural neutrality, making the cycle start
so that zirdei be Tuesday, since I was born on Tuesday and purple is
my favorite color. If I was culturally un-neutral, I'd say xunday is
Sunday, since that's the "start" for both cycles....

--gejyspa

[Frank]

Is there an official start date for Lojban?  We could use that as the "1"-day and construct names which say "1 of 7"-day or "7 of 9"-day, depending on how many days One has in One's culture's week.  To clarify, the names would be of the form "A of B"-day, where "B" is the number of days in a week and "A" is the Ath day of that cycle.  Granted, if One uses a calendar system, for example, with a standard 7 day week with the occasional 4 day week thrown in for one reason or another, this may cause some difficulties but I think We could burn that bridge when We get to it.

mi'e xuinkrbin.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.

[Michael Turniansky]

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Michael Turniansky

ERRRR xunDEI!

>             --gejyspa
>

[John E Clifford]

And I thought the kerfuffle about Alice was a pain! 1. Just using 7-day weeks
is already culturally non neutral, since many societies (at least in the past)
did not have this (seems to have spread with Abrahamic religions). 2. How did
you get off on this from a discussion of portmanteau words? 3. Since when did
portmanteau words have a fixed interpretation? Used to be that, even more than
tanru, the packer had a choice of what was meant -- within certain bounds, of
course. 4. Hell, I forgot.

--gejyspa

--

[Luke Bergen]

That's what happens as lojban conversation continues.  Haha, here we go:  

lo cribe flalu:  as a lojban conversation grows longer, the probability of a proposal being made approaches 1.

I like your skari idea, gejyspa.  It's systematic but still flexible enough that different cultures can coin new words by making finer or courser color-dei names.  I am in favor of this proposal.

[Luke Bergen]

I guess that'd have to be {lo la .cribet. flalu}.  I really should get around to re-working my name a bit so that it's not just a blatant gismu.

[Krzysztof Sobolewski]

Dnia środa, 6 października 2010 o 10:24:40 Balon_ napisał(a):

> In some cultures and countries Sunday is not restday. Sunday is
> workday.

It's a pity, because I tcetcetce nelci "niedziela" for a do-nothing day.

> partyday in Saturday is specific to western culture.

Every day is party day! ;)

> mijdei should be thursday not wednesday.

And yet "środa" (mid-day) is wednesday. Even though "czwartek" (fourth-day) and "piątek" (fifth-day) are thursday and friday, respectively. Inconsistencies in natural languages are lovely ;)

> Why friday is payday?

It seems to me this is not even specific to Western culture, but only to Anglo-Saxon one, where there are wages paid weekly.

Considering all this, I wonder: we have local major money units (rupnu), local length units (gutci), local area units (kramu), but time is measured in minutes, hours, days (OK, this is no surprise), 7-day weeks and 1/12-of-the-year months. Why?
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Do unto others what has been done to you (...)
Do unto you now what has been done to me." - M. J. Keenan

[Frank]

On 6 October 2010 13:41, Krzysztof Sobolewski <jez...@interia.pl> wrote:

It seems to me this is not even specific to Western culture, but only to Anglo-Saxon one, where there are wages paid weekly.

Even then, only some places pay weekly.  Some places pay twice a month, once a month, or every two weeks.  Occasionally, One finds Workers paid daily.

 

Considering all this, I wonder: we have local major money units (rupnu), local length units (gutci), local area units (kramu), but time is measured in minutes, hours, days (OK, this is no surprise), 7-day weeks and 1/12-of-the-year months. Why?

I realized I may have spending too much time on facebook when I started looking around for the 'like' button to mark this observation.  ;-)

mi'e xuinkrbin.

[Luke Bergen]

>> Why friday is payday?
>
>It seems to me this is not even specific to Western culture, but only to Anglo-Saxon one, where there are wages paid weekly.

Apparently not even that broad.  I get paid on thursdays and I'm a middle-class white employee in the software industry in new england.  If one's going to be malglico it seems like I'd be a prime candidate.  And it doesn't even work for me.  Would this be {malprenu}?  Bias of the individual as opposed to "cultural bias"?

[Luke Bergen]

Probably because measurements of time are usually determined by events in space (earth rotating about the sun, moon rotating about the earth) and these things are globally observable.  The natural tendency then, is to come up with similar (but sometimes differently flavored) means of measuring time.  Units of measure are much more subjective and depend more on the length of your kings fore-arm ;)

--

[John E Clifford]

Ain't no natchural weeks.  Maybe a quarter of a lunar cycle or something like that, but almost nobody (OK the whole East, near, middle and far) uses that.  The usual story is that it was to honor the seven gods visible over the course of a day (hence English names and most Romance tongues).

---

From: Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 12:43:29 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: a different weekday proposal

[Pierre Abbat]

On Wednesday 06 October 2010 13:41:34 Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote:
> Dnia środa, 6 października 2010 o 10:24:40 Balon_ napisał(a):
> > In some cultures and countries Sunday is not restday. Sunday is
> > workday.
>
> It's a pity, because I tcetcetce nelci "niedziela" for a do-nothing day.

In Russian, it's the whole week! Sunday is "voskresenye" (resurrection).

> > partyday in Saturday is specific to western culture.
>
> Every day is party day! ;)
>
> > mijdei should be thursday not wednesday.
>
> And yet "środa" (mid-day) is wednesday. Even though "czwartek" (fourth-day)
> and "piątek" (fifth-day) are thursday and friday, respectively.
> Inconsistencies in natural languages are lovely ;)

And don't forget "vtornik" which is Tuesday ("vtoroy" means "second"). Makes
sense if you count from Sunday=0 - but then "ponedel'nik" doesn't make sense
(IIRR "po-" as a verbal prefix means the beginning of something).

With the skadei proposal one can say "ca le bavla'i rusydei" for "at the Greek
calends". And when is nukydei?

Pierre

--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

[Krzysztof Sobolewski]

Dnia środa, 6 października 2010 o 20:21:40 Pierre Abbat napisał(a):
> And don't forget "vtornik" which is Tuesday ("vtoroy" means "second"). Makes
> sense if you count from Sunday=0 - but then "ponedel'nik" doesn't make sense
> (IIRR "po-" as a verbal prefix means the beginning of something).

"Po" means "after" (also as a prefix); hence "ponedel'nik"/"poniedziałek" means "day after sunday".
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Nail in my hand from my creator
You gave me life now show me how to live" - C. Cornell

[Stela Selckiku]

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> gundei - workday (monday)
> lumdei - washday (tuesday)
> mijdei - middleday (wednesday)
> datydei - otherday (thursday)
> lejdei - payday (friday)
> sladei - partyday (saturday)
> surdei - restday (sunday)

Hey! How come my thread has been hijacked for discussion of various
nonlojbanicculture ideas?? That's the same merry-go-round we've been
on for years. I quoted Lindar because I do like his ideas, I think
it'd be great if we could have a "sladei", sounds like a fun day, but
unfortunately people would indeed assume it was Saturday. What I'm
suggesting we think of is NEW ideas! We just think of 7 different fun
things to do, and assign them randomly to days of the week.

For instance za'e "dutydei" (dukti zei djedi, opposite+day) could be a
day where you have fun doing things the opposite of how you'd usually
do them. (In my merko culture there's an idea of Opposite Day, but it
seems to happen randomly and isn't associated with any day of the
week.)

Or za'e "badnydei" (badna zei djedi, banana+day) could be a day for
eating bananas (and dressing up like bananas and making silly shoops
of talking bananas).

We could have a za'e "dridei" (badri zei djedi, sad+day) for being sad
and a za'e "geidje" (gleki zei djedi, happy+day) for being happy.

Perhaps a za'e "pemdei" (pemci zei djedi, poem+day) for reading and
writing Lojbanic poetry.

Or how about a za'e "raftadydei" (rafsi zei tadni zei djedi,
rafsi+study+day) where we all study our rafsi.

That's my idea is that it would be easy to learn the weekday names
because we'd be doing something together on them. You'd remember that
whichever day is pemdei, because every pemdei there'd be lots of new
Lojbanic poetry and people quoting and reciting old poems. You'd
remember what day is raftadydei because every raftadydei people would
be quizzing each other on rafsi. I think it's an opportunity to make
Lojbanistan a more creative and engaging space. I think we'd have a
lot more fun on badnydei talking about bananas and telling the
nintadni it's banana-day than we will having another discussion about
why numbered days are good/bad, or why the element day names are
good/bad and how to remember them. Doesn't anyone like my idea? :)

[.alyn.post.]

My position on this is the same as .aionys.' position, which he
stated earlier.

I do propose, however, that on xedbig we have these event days,
because the kernel of your ideas is one I find engaging.

-Alan
--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

[Michael Turniansky]

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Stela Selckiku <selc...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> gundei - workday (monday)
> lumdei - washday (tuesday)
> mijdei - middleday (wednesday)
> datydei - otherday (thursday)
> lejdei - payday (friday)
> sladei - partyday (saturday)
> surdei - restday (sunday)

Hey!  How come my thread has been hijacked for discussion of various
nonlojbanicculture ideas??  That's the same merry-go-round we've been
on for years.  I quoted Lindar because I do like his ideas, I think
it'd be great if we could have a "sladei", sounds like a fun day, but
unfortunately people would indeed assume it was Saturday.  What I'm
suggesting we think of is NEW ideas!  We just think of 7 different fun
things to do, and assign them randomly to days of the week.

  Hey, I gave my ideas, which were in line with yours.... There were no comments *pout* I reiterate:

zarskugejyspadei ( Wednesday)
kirgejyspadei (Thursday)
lejgejyspadei (Friday)
djugejyspadei (Saturday)

cevgaugejyspadei (Sunday)
pukygejyspadei (Monday)
kelkangejyspadei (Tuesday)

 

  I think those would be fun things to do...

 

              --mi

 

[Frank]

If I may jump back to My suggestion for a moment (not to say I do not like the other suggestions thus far; please, don't think of Me as in opposition), how would One say "1st of 7 day" anyhow?

mi'e xuinkrbin.

--

[Luke Bergen]

{lo pamoi be li ze ku djedi}?

[Michael Turniansky]

  No, that's the assertion that "the first of '7' is a day (whatever that might mean)"  What you want is the le pamoi be lo zemei be'o djedi (The first of the setuple type of day) Or the simpler "le pamoi be lo ze djedi" (the first of a seven one day periods)

 

                    --gejyspa

[Luke Bergen]

I don't know whether to feel happy or "damn" that as soon as I hit send I realized that {li ze} would not fly and that it would have to be {mei}ed or something.  Happy that (yay, I recognized that a piece of grammar of mine was wrong which I probably wouldn't have before) and "damn" that (damn, I got it wrong)

--

[Stela Selckiku]

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Hey, I gave my ideas, which were in line with yours.... There were no
> comments *pout* I reiterate:
> zarskugejyspadei ( Wednesday)
> kirgejyspadei (Thursday)
> lejgejyspadei (Friday)
> djugejyspadei (Saturday)
> cevgaugejyspadei (Sunday)
> pukygejyspadei (Monday)
> kelkangejyspadei (Tuesday)
>
>   I think those would be fun things to do...

OK yes well I did think those were very entertaining but I didn't
think we'd actually get people to use them. In fact if those came to
be the actual names of the days of the week I bet you'd end up feeling
like it was quite strange! :D Are we supposed to help you on
djugejyspadei and play games with you con kelkangejyspadei and so
forth?

We could name the days of the week after important Lojbanists! Except
there's no rafsi for "xorxes", except whatever silly rafsi we invented
for him the other week, but well I guess we could say ".xorxes. zei
djedi". And then there'd be "camgusmisydei" and "xalbydei"... hmm,
xalbydei sounds like a fun day anyway!

Are you people not taking my suggestion seriously? I'm quite serious.
If y'all won't agree with me I might still just go ahead and declare
a day as "badnydei" and start promoting it, and we'll just see if any
of your dry systematic ideas can survive the competition! I think
they won't! A few years from now it'll be like "what were those old
boring names we thought of before for badnydei??" and no one will
remember. :P

mi'e .telselkik. mu'o

[Michael Turniansky]

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Stela Selckiku <selc...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Hey, I gave my ideas, which were in line with yours.... There were no
> comments *pout* I reiterate:
> zarskugejyspadei ( Wednesday)
> kirgejyspadei (Thursday)
> lejgejyspadei (Friday)
> djugejyspadei (Saturday)
> cevgaugejyspadei (Sunday)
> pukygejyspadei (Monday)
> kelkangejyspadei (Tuesday)
>
>   I think those would be fun things to do...

OK yes well I did think those were very entertaining but I didn't
think we'd actually get people to use them.  In fact if those came to
be the actual names of the days of the week I bet you'd end up feeling
like it was quite strange! :D  Are we supposed to help you on
djugejyspadei and play games with you con kelkangejyspadei and so
forth?

  Well, yes of course.  I'm particularly looking forward to cevgaugejspadei, myself....

             --gy

 

[Jonathan Jones]

I might be more inclined to use them is {gejyspa} was removed from them, as in {zarskudei}. {zarskugejyspadei} is just way too long for me. :P

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Stela Selckiku]

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I might be more inclined to use them is {gejyspa} was removed from them, as
> in {zarskudei}. {zarskugejyspadei} is just way too long for me. :P

That was my favorite part about them! I'm sick of how clajvo-phobic
we are. (Especially since I've started studying Potawatomi, this fear
of long words has come to seem malglico to me!) We could leave out
the "gejyspa" though when speaking hurriedly or casually and it could
just be implied. Hmm, maybe the real full name of badnydei is
"xarjvectibadnydei" (xanri zei je zei citka zei badna zei djedi,
imagine+and+eat+bananas+day)!

[Jonathan Jones]

It's not fear. It's laziness. In /every/ language, the most used words are also the shortest. Even if we did use those names for the days of the week, it's a guarantee that they will be shortened really quickly. Weekdays are used often enough that anything more than three syllables is a waste.

On the other hand, something like "the nail of the big toe", { brajmadegycalku}, doesn't really come up in conversation very often, so it's perfectly fine for it to be a long word.

[Stela Selckiku]

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not fear. It's laziness. In /every/ language, the most used words are
> also the shortest. Even if we did use those names for the days of the week,
> it's a guarantee that they will be shortened really quickly. Weekdays are
> used often enough that anything more than three syllables is a waste.

I do agree that it's inevitable and useful that weekdays will have
short names, but I also think it would be nice if they had long names
too. Long names have a richness to them, they can hold a story. If
you think about it, the inevitability of well-used words being worn
down to short forms is just as good an argument for why we should
focus especially on making long names for things-- the short names,
after all, will naturally take care of themselves!

As to the business at hand, anyone have an opinion of which day
xarjvectibadnydei should be? I don't care which day it is, I'm just
looking forward to shooping some bananas!

[Michael Turniansky]

  I think we need a rolroibadnypeidei for you, selkik
--gejyspa