Any volunteers for "Phrasebook. A multilingual dictionary"? (No Lojban skills required)

[la gleki]

Tatoeba proved to be of less significance due to low quality of translated sentences and the lack of opportunities to proofread them.

So I created this file https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahngu1CNj7wddHBqSk9nT0JmcTJ2bXcyLTFtTERZUnc

I'm in the process of translating Lojban column.

You are free to add

1. Rows for other useful phrases.

2. Columns for your native languages (so you are not even required to be familiar with Lojban at all).

Any feedback is welcome.

[Álvaro Vallejo]

Hi,

Anything that helps learning Lojban is welcome. This is useful in my opinion. I think missing translations should be blank, so that it is easier to focus attention on them.

Another issue is what to do for controlling the quality of translations? It would not be enough if someone checks/approves them, since they could be latter changed again. Once this grows substantially and there are many users, we will face the issue of quality control. We need a way to lock phrases once we know they are ok.

Best Regards,

Álvaro

[Jonathan Jones]

Google spreadsheets can have arbitrary ranges "Protected". To do this, someone with edit permissions select one or more cells, right clicks, selects "Name and Protect Range", and clicks the protect check box.

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[iesk]

I added some translations. However, I’m sceptical of the possibility that an anonymous spreadsheet combined with this here message board might lead to a quality-wise better phrasebook than Tatoeba, which is, in comparison, a very sophisticated environment. While Tatoeba is still very chaotic and not reliable in any scholarly sense, the simple fact that there’s a comment area for each sentence does facilitate proofreading and serious discussion on details of translation, sometimes with enlightening results. Sorry, but I don’t understand how your file should lead to comparable, let alone better results.

-iesk

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:33:28 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote:

I added some translations. However, I’m sceptical of the possibility that an anonymous spreadsheet combined with this here message board might lead to a quality-wise better phrasebook than Tatoeba, which is, in comparison, a very sophisticated environment. While Tatoeba is still very chaotic and not reliable in any scholarly sense, the simple fact that there’s a comment area for each sentence does facilitate proofreading and serious discussion on details of translation, sometimes with enlightening results. Sorry, but I don’t understand how your file should lead to comparable, let alone better results.

1. Commenting IS possible for every cell of Google spreadsheet.

2. This phrasebook presents only sentences that are most important for normal speech. Therefore it won't be chaotic. No quotes from Shakespear or something (although we might add such things on separate sheets but it would be a distinct project anyway).

3. It can also give situational dialogues which are largely absent in Tatoeba but which bear even more semantic meaning and integrity than simple sentences.

[.arpis.]

doi la gleki

You should know by now that even discussion of things that are important for normal speech (mu'a zo carna) can become big and chaotic.

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 4:54:06 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:

doi la gleki

You should know by now that even discussion of things that are important for normal speech (mu'a zo carna) can become big and chaotic.

The existence of phrasebooks for tourists itself proves that this field is important and most questions can be solved.

If you feel that you can help this project you are welcome to join it. If you doubt it look at other five lindar's suggestions and use your energy for other topics. 

Anyway just do something.

[guskant]

Do you aim at giving a phrasebook only for English speakers? If so, I
have no interest in it; if not, I would like to make some comments.

Because the column on the left end is not Lojban but English,
translators translate the phrases naturally from English. This method
simply establishes malglico.

For example the greetings: I opine only the phrases {coi}, {co'o} and
{pei} are enough for the list.

Distinction of the time of a day, as well as meaning of each word used
in the greetings, depends on the language. For example in Japanese,
they use neither {xamgu} nor {cerni} but {clira} for the greeting of
the morning or the beginning of working time (even in the nighttime);
neither {xamgu} nor {lerci} nor {donri} but {lo cabdei zo'u} for the
greeting of the daytime; there is no specific greeting of the
afternoon. If you suppose non-English speakers to be readers of the
phrasebook, these malglico may be great defects.

If you put the column of Lojban on the left end and reduce the
greeting phrases to {coi}, {co'o} and {pei}, translators may produce
plural translations for one Lojban phrase, and it's enough for a
phrasebook of common use. Lojban speakers may add {xamgu}, {cerni},
{clira}, {lerci}, {donri} etc. as they like, but these words are
useless for a phrasebook of common use.

Other categories are also dotted with malglico. For example, {do nanca
ma --- mi li repa nanca}.
I opine they are talking about the lifetime, not the actual age.

{nanca} is a gismu with x2 as quantity. When we talk about a
continuum, the universe of discourse includes habitually the whole
body of the continuum. Moreover, "Numbers need never be specified, but
if they are specified they must be correct" (CLL 6.6). With these
preconditions, using the phrase {mi li repa nanca} for the actual age
is incorrect.

For clearness, suppose you measure the length of a canal about 500
metres long with your average step length. You begin with one end of
the canal, and walk along the bank toward the other end counting the
number of steps. When you come near to the middle of the canal, I ask
you {lo naxle cu mitre ma}. If you answer {lo naxle li remuno mitre},
it is simply incorrect, because the universe of discourse includes the
whole canal, and the length of it should be {mitre li ji'i munono}. If
you want to answer the length of the part you have already measured,
you need to mention the endpoint(s) of the measurement {ta bi'i ti li
remuno mitre}, or add {za'u}: {lo naxle li za'u remuno mitre}. The
same discussion can be applied to {nanca}. I would say {do ca ze'e pu
nanca ma --- li repa / mi li repa ca ze'e pu nanca} to talk about the
actual age, and {do nanca ma --- li za'u repa / mi li za'u repa nanca}
to talk about the lifetime.

mu'o

[la gleki]

Please make corrections to the phrasebook. I think English should be detached.

The general idea is that you visit any country (even if it's Lojbanistan),

open two columns (in your mother tongue) and in the language of the country 

you are visiting. The phrasebook must give you the ability to speak

(given that you have some knowledge of the language).

mu'o

[guskant]

You did not answer my question: "Do you aim at giving a phrasebook
only for English speakers?"

If yes, I intend neither to prevent English speakers talking malglico
in Lojbanistan, nor to take part in the phrasebook for English-
speaking travellers; I will leave it as it is. If no, I don't agree
with the method with English column detached to the left end because
of the reasons I have already written.

mu'o

[la .lindar.]

> The general idea is that you visit any country (even if it's Lojbanistan),
> open two columns (in your mother tongue) and in the language of the country
> you are visiting. The phrasebook must give you the ability to speak
> (given that you have some knowledge of the language).

This seems to be a trend with amateur translators in our community.

If you translate, please read what I am saying very carefully and make sure everybody knows this.

Translate the intent of the original text, not the words.

If you translate it word-by-word to Lojban, it is bad.

If you don't believe me, translate something said by a jbocre word-for-word into English.

Ridiculous, isn't it?

[la gleki]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:03:03 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

You did not answer my question: "Do you aim at giving a phrasebook
only for English speakers?"

No.

[la gleki]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:34:04 AM UTC+4, la .lindar. wrote:

> The general idea is that you visit any country (even if it's Lojbanistan),
> open two columns (in your mother tongue) and in the language of the country
> you are visiting. The phrasebook must give you the ability to speak
> (given that you have some knowledge of the language).

This seems to be a trend with amateur translators in our community.

If you translate, please read what I am saying very carefully and make sure everybody knows this.

Translate the intent of the original text, not the words.

Sure. This must be applied to all columns, not only lojbanic one.

[la gleki]

The current place for discussing this project is https://www.facebook.com/groups/nizami.phrasebook/.

However, we can still discuss it here from lojbanic viewpoint.

This project is very open. ju'o it'll be resurrected under different names many times in the future. However, to make it more complete and get rid of possible drawbacks I suggest discussing it in one place.

[guskant]

On Sep 13, 9:01 pm, la gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:03:03 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:
>
> > You did not answer my question: "Do you aim at giving a phrasebook
> > only for English speakers?"
>
> No.

Then why do you say English should be detached without logically
defending your idea?

As I mentioned in the first example of malglico, distinction of the
time of a day, which affects the selection of phrases, depends on the
language. If the core language of translations is culturally non-
neutral, the selection of phrases is non-neutral, which translators
should obey, producing unusual translations unlikely used in one's
travel to Lojbanistan, lacking phrases frequent in one's own culture.

If you keep the English column detached to the left end, English is
still treated as the core language of translations. This method forces
the culture of English speakers on translators and non-English
readers.

My second example of malglico shows that English, as well as other
natural languages, easily produces scientifically strange
interpretation of a lojbanic sentence. If you treat Lojban as the core
language of translations and think lojbanic, and there would not be
such a problem. For this purpose, putting the Lojban column detached
to the left end is a good idea, isn't it?

mu'o

[la gleki]

no column is frozen now.

If we make lojban the standard this will divert other contributors of the phrasebook. It'll turn into a lojbanic project.

However, the basic idea is

1. Situational dialogs.

2. Universal situations

If the second item cannot be implemented I suggest creating country-specific dialogs.

So you open the phrasebook, open "Greetings" section, open "Japan" subsection and see how to correctly greet people in Japanese.

[guskant]

OK, thank you for your consideration!

> However, the basic idea is
> 1. Situational dialogs.
> 2. Universal situations
>
> If the second item cannot be implemented I suggest creating
> country-specific dialogs.
> So you open the phrasebook, open "Greetings" section, open "Japan"
> subsection and see how to correctly greet people in Japanese.

I added some phrases specific to Japanese. Check up the phrasebook if
the style is reasonable.
In addition, I corrected some Lojban greetings that seem to me
unacceptable.

mu'o

[la gleki]

Lojbanists won't succeed. Global work needed.

btw today I found even more low quality, actually unusable, wrong translations in tatoeba. Years can pass by until some moderator corrects them. What is the profit of using tatoeba then?

> However, the basic idea is
> 1. Situational dialogs.
> 2. Universal situations
>
> If the second item cannot be implemented I suggest creating
> country-specific dialogs.
> So you open the phrasebook, open "Greetings" section, open "Japan"
> subsection and see how to correctly greet people in Japanese.

I added some phrases specific to Japanese. Check up the phrasebook if
the style is reasonable.

Exactly in this place that you added the phrasebook has started looking very nice. Such problems were not predicted by me, but I can see that they can and are being solved. We just need to search for and add more sentences. Sentences of dialogs with low importance can be moved to the end of the list (last rows).

As for developing the phrasebook. Imagine that you bought a ticket (1) to lojbanistan. You arrive at the airport (2)/bus station (3). Now you need a taxi (3).

After paying the driver you get to the hotel (4). Then you visit a soccer/basketball/whatever match (5) as the Olympic Games are currently held in lojbanistan. Then you visit a museum (6) and suddenly realise that you are hungry. So using OpenStreet map application or asking passersby (8) you go to a restaurant (7).

Try describing all those situations in your native language and then in lojban. Imagine that your city will be one of the capitals of lojbanistan.

Find more situations. And finally add that to the phrasebook.

[guskant]

2012/9/15 la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>:

>
>
> Lojbanists won't succeed. Global work needed.
> btw today I found even more low quality, actually unusable, wrong
> translations in tatoeba. Years can pass by until some moderator corrects
> them. What is the profit of using tatoeba then?

Even if Tatoeba includes many wrong translations, it is still a nice
tool for learning Lojban. I often read phrases translated by jbocre (I
know some specific ones on Tatoeba), and sometimes find lojbanically
inspired expressions that please me. Sometimes even jbocre make a
mistake, but finding mistakes is also a good training. I profit from
it to remember the correct expressions. I don't recommend Tatoeba to
beginners, but to advanced learners who want to practice thinking
lojbanically.

OK, I will continue improving the phrasebook when I have time.

For today, I corrected some Lojban phrases in the "age talk" category
of the phrasebook.
The dialog I've picked up for the example of "malglico" was corrected
as follows:
{do pu jmive ze'a lo nanca be li xo --- repa / mi pu jmive ze'a lo
nanca be li repa}
Many other expressions are possible for the same scene, but I think
this one is the most reasonable from a neutral, scientific and
practical point of view. To apply the phrase to the age of jmive like
babies, pet animals, bacteria etc., simply replace {nanca} to any
other time unit {masti}, {jeftu}, {djedi}, {cacra}, {mentu}, {snidu}.

mu'o

[Jacob Errington]

In my honest opinion, the best, exact way to talk about the age of someone is {.i do co'a jmive puza ma} "how long ago did you begin to live" or {.i do jbena puza ma} "how long ago were you born."

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

mu'o

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[la gleki]

On Monday, September 17, 2012 2:14:02 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

In my honest opinion, the best, exact way to talk about the age of someone is {.i do co'a jmive puza ma} "how long ago did you begin to live" or {.i do jbena puza ma} "how long ago were you born."

 

Well, I'd vote for the first sentence. 

[guskant]

2012/9/17 Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com>:

> In my honest opinion, the best, exact way to talk about the age of someone
> is {.i do co'a jmive puza ma} "how long ago did you begin to live" or {.i do
> jbena puza ma} "how long ago were you born."
>

I agree to both. When you modify the question on the phrasebook, don't
forget to modify the answer to sumti.

mu'o

[MorphemeAddict]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 8:03 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 17, 2012 2:14:02 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

In my honest opinion, the best, exact way to talk about the age of someone is {.i do co'a jmive puza ma} "how long ago did you begin to live"

This is ambiguous, depending on your definition of "begin to live". Is that conception, or birth? Both ways are common, depending on culture and individual. 

 

or {.i do jbena puza ma} "how long ago were you born."

 

Well, I'd vote for the first sentence. 

So would I. 

stevo 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/WM3jhta36nkJ.

[Jacob Errington]

{jmive} includes a standard for that very purpose.
{jbena} does not, but it refers to birth, which has a precise date and time, usually.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

[la gleki]

doi guskant, please don't enter any information written in lojban in Japanese (Romaji) column. Only one language allowed in each column.

Therefore, please transfer it to lojban column. You can use {to ... toi} for comments.

As not all of you have facebook account I'll keep you inform here of how ideas of Nizami are being crystallised.

Three points of Nizami.

1. Sentences are grouped in themes

2. Situational dialogs are preferred

And the most important item.

3. Short tutorials (just in one or two sentences) of how you are supposed to act in different situations depending on the country. e.g. http://wikitravel.org/en/Chinese_phrasebook has the following useful note "In most Chinese cities, there are no telephone booths. Instead, small street shops have telephones which can usually be used for national calls...."

Please note that "Language is not equal to country". Chinese is spoken outside mainland China. English is spoken everywhere.

The same can be said about some planned languages.

So short country-specific explanations are of great use. We should add them to Nizami.

[guskant]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 4:46 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> doi guskant, please don't enter any information written in lojban in
> Japanese (Romaji) column. Only one language allowed in each column.
> Therefore, please transfer it to lojban column. You can use {to ... toi} for
> comments.
>

I removed the Lojban comments from the Japanese column.

> As not all of you have facebook account I'll keep you inform here of how
> ideas of Nizami are being crystallised.
>
> Three points of Nizami.
> 1. Sentences are grouped in themes
> 2. Situational dialogs are preferred
>
> And the most important item.
> 3. Short tutorials (just in one or two sentences) of how you are supposed to
> act in different situations depending on the country. e.g.
> http://wikitravel.org/en/Chinese_phrasebook has the following useful note
> "In most Chinese cities, there are no telephone booths. Instead, small
> street shops have telephones which can usually be used for national
> calls...."
>

I wonder this information might be outdated. In large cities of China,
you will find IC card phone booths.
http://baike.baidu.com/view/121246.htm
In any case, cellphones are available, and there might be little need
of this info.

mu'o

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:34:02 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:

True. I just give  a general idea that Nizami can and should work as a short guide to a country as well.

 

mu'o

[Remo Dentato]

I've added some Italian phrases to the spreadsheet but, while doing
it, I had a doubt.

Wouldn't be easier to leverage what Tatoeba provides? We could use
tags to mark translations that can be considered "good" and eliminate
the others.

Also we could grade or group their sentences so to be able to produce
different lists.

I just wish we could start from there rather than from scratch, for
the usual old reasons: so many things to do an so little time to do it
:(

remod

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 6:19 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tatoeba proved to be of less significance due to low quality of translated
> sentences and the lack of opportunities to proofread them.
>
> So I created this file
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahngu1CNj7wddHBqSk9nT0JmcTJ2bXcyLTFtTERZUnc
>
> I'm in the process of translating Lojban column.
> You are free to add
> 1. Rows for other useful phrases.
> 2. Columns for your native languages (so you are not even required to be
> familiar with Lojban at all).
>
> Any feedback is welcome.
>

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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/rGkMepilzWcJ.

[la gleki]

On Sunday, September 23, 2012 2:01:21 PM UTC+4, remod wrote:

I've added some Italian phrases to the spreadsheet but, while doing
it, I had a doubt.

Wouldn't be easier to leverage what Tatoeba provides? We could use
tags to mark translations that can be considered "good" and eliminate
the others.

You are free to show us what you've done in Tatoeba. 

Just prove it.