la za'e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo)
Stela Selckiku
some lujvo that are relatively easy to make. I'll call them za'e
"filjvo" (frili zei lujvo, easy+lujvo).
For example, there are all the words we've been making these days that
start with jbo- (for lojbo, Lojbanic, Lojban related). They basically
mean the same thing as the root that jbo- is added to, but in Lojban:
jbosku, lojbo zei cusku, to express something in Lojban.
jbota'a, lojbo zei tavla, to talk in Lojban.
jbopli, lojbo zei pilno, to use Lojban.
jbosnu, lojbo zei casnu, to discuss in Lojban.
jbocre, lojbo zei certu, to be an expert at Lojban.
jboce'u, lojbo zei cecmu, the Lojban community.
And it would be quite easy to make more, like:
za'e jboxa'a, lojbo zei xatra, a letter in Lojban.
za'e jbocli, lojbo zei cilre, to learn Lojban.
za'e jbotadni, lojbo zei tadni, to study Lojban.
za'e jboctu, lojbo zei ctuca, to teach Lojban.
za'e jboge'a, lojbo zei gerna, Lojbanic grammar.
Those are all obvious enough that I'm sure some of them are being used
already and I just haven't noticed.
As another example, it's quite easy to make lujvo by adding tce-
(mutce, very, extremely) to give an amplified version, like these
examples:
tcegei, mutce zei gleki, very happy, overjoyed, ecstatic.
tcecrogau, mutce zei cortu zei gasnu, to cause a lot of pain, to torture.
tcebra, mutce zei barda, very large, gigantic, enormous.
tcepru, mutce zei purci, very far in the past, ancient.
And of course:
tcetce, mutce zei mutce, very extremely!
And of course it would be easy to make more of these, like:
za'e tcedri, mutce zei badri, extremely sad, distraught.
za'e tceda'o, mutce zei darno, very distant, very far.
za'e tcefe'u, mutce zei fengu, quite angry, enraged, incensed, furious.
za'e tcefrili, mutce zei frili, very easy, trivial.
za'e tcecni, mutce zei cinmo, very emotional, passionate.
Another rafsi that I've been using in this fashion is mle- (melbi,
beautiful, aesthetically pleasing). I believe I'm the only person to
take up this pattern, but I've been tossing a few words out there:
za'e mlevla, melbi zei valsi, a beautiful word.
za'e mlejvo, melbi zei lujvo, a beautiful lujvo.
za'e mlebau, melbi zei bangu, a beautiful language.
And here's a few more off the top of my head:
za'e mlebra, melbi zei barda, beautifully large, I think of Grand
Central Station.
za'e mlelardai, melbi zei larcu zei dacti, a beautiful work of art.
za'e mlesi'o, melbi zei sidbo, a beautiful idea.
Making lujvo this way might seem like it's almost too easy, like it
must be cheating! But i believe that this style of lujvo actually
adds a lot to our language. While the surface meaning of a word like
"tcebra" is obvious-- it's something very large-- it also gives birth
to a rich new space of connotation where deep subtle meanings can
begin to take root. For instance there is a subtle difference in
feeling between things that are "enormous" or "gigantic" or "titanic"
or "colossal" or "immense". The feeling of what it is to be "tcebra"
hopefully won't quite exactly match any of those, or any other word
from any other language, it will be a new feeling that belongs only to
us as Lojbanists.
So i would actually like to encourage the creation of za'e filjvo. I
would even like to instigate a za'e filjvocedra, an age of easy lujvo.
I think it can give us some space to breathe, some room to move. We
can begin to establish these particular places, and to slowly imbue
them with a richness which future Lojbanists will receive and cherish.
ko te pinka
mi'e la stela selckiku
mu'o
Jorge Llambías
>
> As another example, it's quite easy to make lujvo by adding tce-
> (mutce, very, extremely) to give an amplified version, like these
> examples:
>
> tcegei, mutce zei gleki, very happy, overjoyed, ecstatic.
> tcecrogau, mutce zei cortu zei gasnu, to cause a lot of pain, to torture.
> tcebra, mutce zei barda, very large, gigantic, enormous.
> tcepru, mutce zei purci, very far in the past, ancient.
I prefer suffix -tce in these cases. "mutce lo ka broda" -> "brodytce".
Other common suffixy lujvo makers are -rai, -mau (or -zma), -ze'a, -bi'o, -gau
And you forgot to mention zan- and mal-!
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Luke Bergen
It's an exellent point. I only start thinking about lujvo creaton when I'm trying to think of how to translate an english word. But that seems like such a waste. If that's the only reason that we use for making lujvo then we're going to just fill the ze'a jvoca'u with glico translations.
ca lo filjvocedra ma'a .e'u finti so'i to'e purci pensi je facki valsi
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Stela Selckiku
>
> I prefer suffix -tce in these cases. "mutce lo ka broda" -> "brodytce".
Why do you prefer it? I thought it made just as much sense either
way: "tcebo'e", something which is brode in a way that relates to
something being mutce (specifically, that its quality of being brode
is a se mutce), "bo'etce", something which is mutce in a way that
relates to something being brode (specifically, that what it's mutce
is the quality of being brode).
> Other common suffixy lujvo makers are -rai, -mau (or -zma), -ze'a,
> -bi'o, -gau
>
> And you forgot to mention zan- and mal-!
Yeah, those are good ones!
I'm wondering what other gismu could be similarly productive. Here
are some ideas, of varying quality, with examples:
banli (bal, ba'i), za'e "balbra", banli zei barda, grandly large.
bredi (red, bre), za'e "klabre", klama zei bredi, ready to go.
cafne (caf), za'e "cafselsku", cafne zei se zei cusku, often said.
casnu (snu), za'e "timsnu", tcima zei casnu, to discuss the weather.
certu (cre), za'e "djacre", cidja zei certu, foodie, gourmet.
cinri (ci'i), za'e "ci'icta", cinri zei catlu, to look at something
interesting.
ckini (ki'i), za'e "ku'urki'i", ckunu zei ckini, conifer related.
claxu (cau), za'e "smucau", smuni zei claxu, meaningless.
cpacu (cpa), za'e "nujycpa", snuji zei cpacu, to get a sandwich.
cpedu (cpe), za'e "nujycpe", snuji zei cpedu, to ask for a sandwich.
culno (clu), za'e "jauclu", djacu zei culno, full of water.
cumki (cum, cu'i), za'e "parcu'i", cpare zei cumki, possible to climb.
cupra (pra), za'e "djapra", cidja zei cupra, to produce food.
curmi (cru), za'e "klacru", klama zei curmi, to allow to go.
daspo (spo), za'e "tcaspo", tcadu zei daspo, to destroy a city.
denpa (dep, de'a), za'e "kande'a", kansa zei denpa, to wait for
someone to join you.
derxi (dre), za'e "ta'udre", taxfu zei derxi, a pile of clothes.
dukse (dus, du'e), za'e "camdu'e", carmi zei dukse, too bright.
fliba (fli), za'e "zbafli", zbasu zei fliba, to fail at making.
jgira (jgi), za'e "jgifi'i", jgira zei finti, to proudly invent.
jundi (jud, ju'i), za'e "skuju'i", cusku zei jundi, paying attention
to what someone's saying.
junri (jur), za'e "jursnu", junri zei casnu, to discuss seriously.
kajde (jde), za'e "timjde", tcima zei kajde, to warn about the weather.
kakne (ka'e), za'e "dzuka'e", cadzu zei kakne, able to walk.
kansa (kan), za'e "kansa'a", kansa zei sanga, to sing together.
krefu (ref, ke'u), za'e "ke'ukla", krefu zei klama, to go again.
masno (sno), za'e "ctisno", citka zei masno, to eat slowly.
milxe (mli), za'e "ti'amli", tcima zei milxe, mild weather.
mulno (mul, mu'o), za'e "zbamu'o", zbasu zei mulno, completely built.
nenri (ner, ne'i), za'e "zdane'i", zdani zei nenri, inside a house.
nitcu (tcu), za'e "gletcu", gletu zei nitcu, horny, needing sex.
pensi (pes, pei), za'e "papypei", panpi zei pensi, to think of peace.
pilno (pli), za'e "sampli", skami zei pilno, to use a computer.
pixra (pir, xra), za'e "cpixra", cipni zei pixra, a picture of a bird.
ponse (pos, po'e), za'e "mrupo'e", mruli zei ponse, to have a hammer.
prami (pam, pa'i), za'e "spepa'i", speni zei prami, to love one's spouse.
rapli (rap), za'e "rapca'e", rapli zei catke, to repeatedly shove.
rarna (rar), za'e "rarta'a", rarna zei tavla, to speak naturally.
ruble (rub, ble), za'e "blable", blanu zei ruble, faintly blue.
senva (sev, sne), za'e "pe'osne" pendo zei senva, to dream of a friend.
sidju (dju), za'e "kladju", klama zei sidju, to help someone go.
simlu (mlu), za'e "xedmlu", xendo zei simlu, to seem kind.
simsa (smi), za'e "cpismi", cipni zei simsa, birdlike.
simxu (sim, si'u), za'e "xensi'u", xebni zei simxu, to hate each other.
sisti (sti), za'e "ctisti", citka zei sisti, to stop eating.
snuti (nut), za'e "nutydicra", snuti zei dicra, to accidentally interrupt.
srera (sre), za'e "srekri", srera zei krici, to mistakenly believe.
stodi (sto), za'e "stoxendo", stodi zei xendo, consistently kind.
tatpi (ta'i), za'e "bajyta'i", bajra zei tatpi, tired from running.
terpa (tep, te'a), za'e "sincyte'a", since zei terpa, afraid of snakes.
troci (toc, toi), za'e "zbatoi", zbasu zei troci, try to make.
virnu (vri), za'e "vrisku", virnu zei cusku, say bravely.
xamgu (xag, xau), za'e "xagyge'u", xamgu zei gerku, good dog.
xanri (xar), za'e "xarblo", xanri zei bloti, an imaginary boat.
xebni (xen, xei), za'e "jboxei", lojbo zei xebni, to hate Lojban.
xendo (xed, xe'o), za'e "xe'odju", xendo zei sidju, to kindly help.
xenru (xer, xe'u), za'e "xersku", xenru zei cusku, to regret saying.
xlali (xla), za'e "xladja", xlali zei cidja, bad food.
zungi (zug), za'e "ctizungi", citka zei zungi, guilty for eating, how
one feels after having some xladja :D
Not all of those are really all that productive. But in trying to
think of some I did notice some patterns.
One is emotion words, it's easy to tack them onto an action to also
show how the actor felt about the action, like putting xer- (xenru) on
something to show it was done regretfully or putting gek- or gei-
(gleki) to show it was done happily.
Another category is gismu that have an action as one of their
arguments, it's easy to combine them with an action word, like "masno"
has as its x2 something that's done slowly, so you can combine it with
an action to show that the action is done slowly, or with "bredi" the
x2 is something the x1 is ready for, so it makes sense to combine it
with anything someone could be ready to do.
One of my favorites lately has been "nut", snuti, accidental. I've
just been really into the way that produces useful and evocative lujvo
with almost any action, like za'e "nutnerkla" (snuti nenri klama), to
enter accidentally, or za'e "nutyvi'a" (snuti viska) to accidentally
see.
Also there's general qualities that just about anything can have, for
instance anything can be good (xamgu, xag, xau) or bad (xlali, xla),
though I'm not sure how that should differ in general from
zabna/mabla, or anything can be imaginary (xanri, xar) or happen in a
dream (senva, sev, sne).
But anyway I don't mean to be overwhelming. I don't really think we
can get the community as a whole to start making filjvo with many
things at once, then it wouldn't be so easy. We have a few that we've
established for a long time, like bi'o and gau, and some that we've
started to explore more recently, like tce and jbo. I think it might
work to choose just a few more to explore next. I'm partial towards
"snuti" (nut, accidental) as I mentioned, and "melbi" (mel, mle,
beautiful).
Stela Selckiku
> It's an exellent point. I only start thinking about lujvo creaton
> when I'm trying to think of how to translate an english word.
> But that seems like such a waste. If that's the only reason that
> we use for making lujvo then we're going to just fill the ze'a
> jvoca'u with glico translations.
.ie tcetce malglico
.i .i'e do jvofi'i zo jvoca'u noi mlejvo
The thing is that it's much harder to make a word for something
completely new. You have to explain to people what the concept is,
instead of just pointing them at which existing concept to connect the
word to. For instance I made up a lujvo the other day za'e "la'ucni"
(lalxu+cinmo, lake+emote), by which I mean experiencing the feeling of
encountering a new space that's very broad and deep, a large range of
possibilities that you can dive into and explore. But more concrete I
guess than za'e "xasycni" (xamsi+cinmo, ocean+emote) which would be
completely overwhelming, would be something there's no way you could
ever explore it to its ends and depth. With "la'ucni" it's a feeling
of something that's vast but also comprehensible, something you can
see the ends of even if it would take a long time to explore them. So
you can see how it's hard to be sure even with all those words of
explanation that you're thinking of the same thing I am, since I'm not
just hooking it onto a concept we already share.
I think that filjvo can help us to more easily explore new parts of
the jvoca'u, because then even if there isn't a natlang word that the
filjvo resembles you can expect its meaning because of the pattern of
similar words. For instance many of the -gau lujvo were obviously
made as translations of English words, like badgau = defend and dadgau
= to hang/suspend, but you can make a new one like, oh I dunno, za'e
"blagau" (blanu+gasnu, blue+do) and even though there isn't a specific
English word for making something blue, the meaning of the filjvo is
easy to follow because it's in the same pattern as the rest of the
-gau words, so you know what I'm talking about if I say "mi blagau le
zdani" (I made the house blue).
Ross Ogilvie
doi ro do poi jundi zoi gy. arrested development gy.
lu mi blagau vo'a li'u se cusku la .tobias.funkes.
mi'e .ros.
.ie tcetce malglico
--
Ross Ogilvie
doi ro do poi jundi zoi gy. arrested development gy.
lu mi blagau vo'a li'u se cusku la .tobias.funkes.
mi'e .ros.
Jorge Llambías
> 2010/9/24 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> I prefer suffix -tce in these cases. "mutce lo ka broda" -> "brodytce".
>
> Why do you prefer it?
.i ko troci lo nu ciksi bau lo lojbo .i zo brodytce cu sampu .i mutce
lo ka broda .i ma ve ciksi zo tcebroda to ko na pilno lo tanru .i lo
tanru noda kligau toi
> Also there's general qualities that just about anything can have, for
> instance anything can be good (xamgu, xag, xau) or bad (xlali, xla),
> though I'm not sure how that should differ in general from
> zabna/mabla,
xamgu/xlali is more like beneficial/detrimental.
zabna/mabla is more like cool/shitty.
Jorge Llambías
> For instance many of the -gau lujvo were obviously
> made as translations of English words, like badgau = defend and dadgau
> = to hang/suspend,
"dadgau" is a good example of that, "x1 makes x2 hang from x3 by x4",
but "badgau" not so good, because it means "x1 makes x2 defend x3 from
x4", so it is not at all what you would expect for English "defend".
(I just use "bandu" for "defend", but some people don't like it when I
talk of people as if they were events.)
Robert LeChevalier
Stela Selckiku wrote:
>>And you forgot to mention zan- and mal-!
> Yeah, those are good ones!
>
> I'm wondering what other gismu could be similarly productive. Here
> are some ideas, of varying quality, with examples:
>
> banli (bal, ba'i), za'e "balbra", banli zei barda, grandly large.
> bredi (red, bre), za'e "klabre", klama zei bredi, ready to go.
> ...
> Not all of those are really all that productive. But in trying to
> think of some I did notice some patterns.
At one time, my plan for the dictionary was to take individual words and
build families of 2-place lujvo around them, kinda like building a
thesaurus, but without necessarily having the words already there. I
would in fact have used an English thesaurus as PART of the source,
because it shows a breakdown of related concepts. Come up with lujvo to
express the fine distinctions of the family of words for an English
thesaurus entry, and then add others for other distinctions you can see
just as part of making those words, and you quickly grow the vocabulry.
Furthermore, all the place structures tend to be similar, and the
toughest part of making new Lojban words has always been figuring out
what the place structure should be.
> One is emotion words, it's easy to tack them onto an action to also
> show how the actor felt about the action, like putting xer- (xenru) on
> something to show it was done regretfully or putting gek- or gei-
> (gleki) to show it was done happily.
How about just having a set of gismu and lujvo to cover all the emotions
expressed by the attitudinals, including some of those expressed as
compound attitudinals, with some fine distinctions we don't typically
make in English because they pop up naturally in lojban, say, with the
ro'V modifiers. One can easily imagine there could be a couple hundred
emotion lujvo, all with essentially the same place structure (which is
my idea of "easy lujvo").
Colors are another area. Pink, rose, aqua, mauve, sepia. Lots of
obscure English color words, and a raft of obscure Lojban color lujvo
could be just as useful.
Words for a variety of different academic fields and subjects - like all
the "ologies" of English.
If this were done, then the families of lujvo based off particular words
would tend to emerge naturally as people saw what was useful for making
the distinctions.
lojbab
Jorge Llambías
>
> How about just having a set of gismu and lujvo to cover all the emotions
> expressed by the attitudinals, including some of those expressed as compound
> attitudinals, with some fine distinctions we don't typically make in English
> because they pop up naturally in lojban, say, with the ro'V modifiers.
That's basically what I have done for the Lojban-Lojban definitions in
jbovlaste. There's a summary table at the bottom of this page:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK+Section:+Realis+Attitudinals
I'm sure some of the choices of brivla can be improved.
> One
> can easily imagine there could be a couple hundred emotion lujvo, all with
> essentially the same place structure (which is my idea of "easy lujvo").
"Essentially the same place structure" is tricky though, because the
place structures of the gismu are unfortunately not always essentially
the same.
Stela Selckiku
>
> .i ko troci lo nu ciksi bau lo lojbo .i zo brodytce cu sampu .i mutce
> lo ka broda .i ma ve ciksi zo tcebroda to ko na pilno lo tanru .i lo
> tanru noda kligau toi
.a'i ro'e .i lu mutce lo ka broda li'u cu ve ciksi zo tcebroda ji'a
li'a .i la'a lo di'u nu ciksi cu na'e mansa do .i ku'i so'i jbopre cu
mutce cafne cusku lo simsa be lo'u mutce broda le'u .e zo tcebroda .i
.ia racli .i mi troci lo nu zmadu ciksi kei noi nandu .i lo tertau cu
ralju .i lo go'i cu se jalge lo bridi stura .i lo nu pilno zo mutce lo
tertau cu krinu lo nu lo stura cu mleca satci .i traji djica lo nu
xusra lo du'u broda .i lo nu xusra lo du'u mutce cu mleca lo ka vajni
.i lo nu jvofi'i cu simsa .i lo jvofi'i cu djica lo nu lo se finti cu
lujvo lo filterjmi drani .i mu'i lujvo fo lo tanru be ba'e fi lo traji
vajni
ni'o mupli .i zo tcero'e cu lujvo lo du'u brode kei la'a sai .i ku'i
zo ro'etce cu cumki lujvo lo du'u na'e brode .i zo ro'etce cu cumki
lujvo lo mu'a du'u mutce fi'o zgana lo brode .i zo ro'etce cu cumki
lujvo lo mu'a du'u mutce fi'o simsa lo brode .i mi ba zi finti lo
mupli lujvo .i za'e xastce (to xamsi zei mutce toi) .i so'a xastce cu
na ca'e xamsi .i lo xastce cu mutce fi'o simsa lo xamsi .i zo xastce
cimjvo .i so'i xastce na barda dacti .i la .lojban. mu'a cu xastce lo
ka gerna pluja .i ku'i zo tcexamsi cu la'a nai sai simsa smuni .i la'a
sai lo tcexamsi cu je'u xamsi
ni'o xu te jimpe ve ciksi .i xu do na tugni .i .i'e cinri nu tavla be
fo lo jbobau be'o gentilsnu
Jorge Llambías
>
> .a'i ro'e .i lu mutce lo ka broda li'u cu ve ciksi zo tcebroda ji'a
> li'a .i la'a lo di'u nu ciksi cu na'e mansa do
.i na mulno mansa .i mi kanpe lo nu lu broda lo ka brode li'u cu binxo
lu brode zei broda li'u .e nai lu broda zei brode li'u
>.i ku'i so'i jbopre cu
> mutce cafne cusku lo simsa be lo'u mutce broda le'u .e zo tcebroda .i
> .ia racli
.i ie cafne cusku .i pe'i milxe malglico .i ki'u ma no da cusku zo
zmabroda .a zo rairbroda .i xu srana lo nu lo glibau cu pilno lo
vlafa'o lo nu sinxa zo zmadu .e zo traji .e nai zo mutce to ta'o lo
sanbau cu fatne .i pilno lo vlafa'o lo nu sinxa zo mutce .e nai zo
zmadu .a bo zo traji toi
>.i mi troci lo nu zmadu ciksi kei noi nandu .i lo tertau cu
> ralju .i lo go'i cu se jalge lo bridi stura .i lo nu pilno zo mutce lo
> tertau cu krinu lo nu lo stura cu mleca satci
.i mi'o casnu lo lujvo .e nai lo tanru .i lo tanru po'u lu mutce broda
li'u na mutce fanza mi .i mi so'i roi ja'a pilno
> .i traji djica lo nu
> xusra lo du'u broda .i lo nu xusra lo du'u mutce cu mleca lo ka vajni
> .i lo nu jvofi'i cu simsa .i lo jvofi'i cu djica lo nu lo se finti cu
> lujvo lo filterjmi drani .i mu'i lujvo fo lo tanru be ba'e fi lo traji
> vajni
.i pau do zmanei zo raicla ji zo clarai .i mi na nelci lo nu ciksi fi
lo ve lujvo fo lo tanru .i pe'i lo tanru na banzu lo nu ciksi
> ni'o mupli .i zo tcero'e cu lujvo lo du'u brode kei la'a sai .i ku'i
> zo ro'etce cu cumki lujvo lo du'u na'e brode .i zo ro'etce cu cumki
> lujvo lo mu'a du'u mutce fi'o zgana lo brode .i zo ro'etce cu cumki
> lujvo lo mu'a du'u mutce fi'o simsa lo brode .i mi ba zi finti lo
> mupli lujvo .i za'e xastce (to xamsi zei mutce toi) .i so'a xastce cu
> na ca'e xamsi .i lo xastce cu mutce fi'o simsa lo xamsi .i zo xastce
> cimjvo .i so'i xastce na barda dacti .i la .lojban. mu'a cu xastce lo
> ka gerna pluja .i ku'i zo tcexamsi cu la'a nai sai simsa smuni .i la'a
> sai lo tcexamsi cu je'u xamsi
.i ma smuni zo xasmau do .i pe'i su'a lo brodytce cu brodymau lo
brodymli .i je no da brodymau lo brodyrai
> ni'o xu te jimpe ve ciksi .i xu do na tugni .i .i'e cinri nu tavla be
> fo lo jbobau be'o gentilsnu
.i jimpe gi'e na tugni gi'e ie ja'a se cinri
Luke Bergen
>> xusra lo du'u broda .i lo nu xusra lo du'u mutce cu mleca lo ka vajni
>> .i lo nu jvofi'i cu simsa .i lo jvofi'i cu djica lo nu lo se finti cu
>> lujvo lo filterjmi drani .i mu'i lujvo fo lo tanru be ba'e fi lo traji
>> vajni
>
>lo ve lujvo fo lo tanru .i pe'i lo tanru na banzu lo nu ciksi
Jorge Llambías
>>
>>.i pau do zmanei zo raicla ji zo clarai .i mi na nelci lo nu ciksi fi
>>lo ve lujvo fo lo tanru .i pe'i lo tanru na banzu lo nu ciksi
>
> ca lo nu do ciksi kei mi menli sezgalfi ja'e lo du'u mi nelrai genai zo
> rodmle .e zo rodrai .e zo rodytce gi zo mlerod .e zo raibroda .e zo tcebroda
> .iku'i mutce cumki fa lo nu do'o ciksi menli bo galfi tu'a mi
ma smuni zo nelrai do .i ru'a na se smuni lo du'u traji lo ka ce'u nelci
Luke Bergen
Jorge Llambías
> .i .ai se smuni lo du'u zo nelrai traji lo ka mi nelci ce'u
cizra je ci'izra
Luke Bergen
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:cizra je ci'izra
> .i .ai se smuni lo du'u zo nelrai traji lo ka mi nelci ce'u
> 2010/10/1 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>.i pau do zmanei zo raicla ji zo clarai .i mi na nelci lo nu ciksi fi
>> >>lo ve lujvo fo lo tanru .i pe'i lo tanru na banzu lo nu ciksi
>> >
>> > ca lo nu do ciksi kei mi menli sezgalfi ja'e lo du'u mi nelrai genai zo
>> > rodmle .e zo rodrai .e zo rodytce gi zo mlerod .e zo raibroda .e zo
>> > tcebroda
>> > .iku'i mutce cumki fa lo nu do'o ciksi menli bo galfi tu'a mi
>>
>> ma smuni zo nelrai do .i ru'a na se smuni lo du'u traji lo ka ce'u nelci
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
Jorge Llambías
> xagci'izra ji xlaci'izra
.i zo'o malci'izra
> do nelrai zo nelrai ji zo rainel .u'i
.i pa mai zo rainel cu cmevla .i re mai mi zmanei zo zmanei zo nelrai
.i la'a mi na traji lo ka nelci zo zmanei .i mi na djuno lo du'u ma
kau traji lo ka nelci zo zmanei .i ji'a la'e di'u na mutce srana lo se
casnu be la selkik jo'u mi
Luke Bergen
Jorge Llambías
> sorry to break into English but my lojban isn't good enough yet.
> If I'm understanding the conversation correctly, the discussion between you
> and selkik is whether it should be tcebroda or brodytce.
Right, for a lujvo with the meaning "ko'a mutce lo ka ce'u broda ko'e ko'i ...".
> Should a similar
> question be asked about rai, nel/nei, mle, etc...
For traji, and zmadu, yes, I brought them up because they are similar.
If by "mle" you mean "mli" (milxe), then yes, I think they should
follow the same pattern, and my argument was that nobody proposes
using zmadu or traji (in the intended sense) as prefixes.
I'm not sure what nel/nei is doing here since it's a completely
different thing. And "zmanei" does not mean "ko'a zmadu lo ka ce'u
nelci ko'e", so it's not an example of the kind of -zma/-mau we were
talking about.
> It seems like there are
> many tanru that I could see going either way. Is that a beautiful type-of
> tree or is that beautiful in a tree kind of way?
You are now talking about tanru, yes?
> Am I superlative type-of
> fond of... or am I a fond kind of superlative about...?
What are either of those supposed to mean? That you are the person
that mosts likes something, or that some thing is the thing you like
the most?
> I think that the CLL talks about tanru/lujvo being reflexive vs not.
Do you mean symmetric? Reflexive is something else.
Luke Bergen
> nelci ko'e", so it's not an example of the kind of -zma/-mau we were
> talking about.
Jorge Llambías
>
>> And "zmanei" does not mean "ko'a zmadu lo ka ce'u
>> nelci ko'e", so it's not an example of the kind of -zma/-mau we were
>> talking about.
>
> I didn't think it did. I assume it means {ko'e zmadu ko'i lo ka ko'a nelci
> ce'u}.
Right, something like that. This is a complicated case, because we
want the x1 of nelci to be the x1 of the lujvo, but also nelci is in a
subordinate position, so it's rather atypical.
The cases we were discussing were ordinary augmentatives, comparatives
and superlatives. "mutce lo ka ce'u broda", "zmadu fi lo ka ce'u
broda", "traji lo ka ce'u broda".
> my two cents (and I'm probably glico biased)... I like e.g. {tcebarda}. I
> think it seems right that if I want to say "tom is very stupid when it comes
> to girls" I can say {la tam cu tcebebna tu'a lo ninmu}. If I break this
> lujvo apart into a tanru it still makes sense given the bridi tail.
There's no reason to bring up tanru. A lujvo is not the short version
of a tanru.
> If it
> were {la tam cu bebnytce tu'a lo ninmu} then breaking it up into a tanru
> would yield {la tam cu bebna be tu'a lo ninmu be'o mutce}. It seems like
> making the {tce} a suffix wouldn't be useful in most cases for adding more
> sumti places.
"la tam cu bebnytce tu'a lo ninmu" to me means "la tam cu mutce lo ka
ce'u bebna tu'a lo ninmu". A lujvo does not "break apart into a
tanru".
"mi dadgau lo mapku lo genxu" means "mi gasnu lo nu lo mapkau cu dandu
lo genxu", nothing like "mi dandu gasnu lo mapku lo genxu".
Luke Bergen
Jorge Llambías
> I must have gotten mixed up from reading the CLL's algorithm for turning a
> tanru into a lujvo. For those of us not well-versed enough, what are the
> main arguments for/against tcebroda vs brodytce? If a lujvo is defined and
> not necessarily built with a rigid rule-set from it's component gismu, then
> tcebroda vs brodytce is ultimately a question of preference right?
We're discussing preferences, yes. My preference is for being as
systematic as possible, so:
zmadu fi lo ka broda -> rodmau
mleca fi lo ka broda -> rodme'a
traji lo ka broda -> rodrai
mutce lo ka broda -> rodytce
milxe lo ka broda -> rodmli
cenba lo ka broda -> rodycne
zenba lo ka broda -> rodze'a
jdika lo ka broda -> rodjdika
and probably some more I'm forgetting.
I'll leave the argument for "tcebroda" to those who prefer it. I don't
find too convincing any appeals to English wording sounding better one
way or the other, or to tanru..
If you prefer "tcebroda" then presumably you should also prefer
"zmabroda" and "rairbroda", or if not why not?
A similar discrepancy I have with those who prefer prefix sim- to
suffix -si'u for reciprocals.
Pierre Abbat
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I must have gotten mixed up from reading the CLL's algorithm for turning
> > a tanru into a lujvo. For those of us not well-versed enough, what are
> > the main arguments for/against tcebroda vs brodytce? If a lujvo is
> > defined and not necessarily built with a rigid rule-set from it's
> > component gismu, then tcebroda vs brodytce is ultimately a question of
> > preference right?
>
> We're discussing preferences, yes. My preference is for being as
> systematic as possible, so:
>
> zmadu fi lo ka broda -> rodmau
> mleca fi lo ka broda -> rodme'a
> traji lo ka broda -> rodrai
> mutce lo ka broda -> rodytce
> milxe lo ka broda -> rodmli
> cenba lo ka broda -> rodycne
> zenba lo ka broda -> rodze'a
> jdika lo ka broda -> rodjdika
>
> and probably some more I'm forgetting.
>
> I'll leave the argument for "tcebroda" to those who prefer it. I don't
> find too convincing any appeals to English wording sounding better one
> way or the other, or to tanru..
I say "mutce broda", so "tcebroda".
> If you prefer "tcebroda" then presumably you should also prefer
> "zmabroda" and "rairbroda", or if not why not?
If "broda" is intransitive, it doesn't make much difference. However, if it is
transitive, it can make a difference. For instance, mi neizma la bil. lo
frambesi (I like raspberries more than Bill does) .i mi zmanei lo frambesi lo
clazme (I like raspberries more than cucumbers).
> A similar discrepancy I have with those who prefer prefix sim- to
> suffix -si'u for reciprocals.
lo girzu cu tavysi'u .iku'i mi simtavla do
mu'omi'e .pier.
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.
Jorge Llambías
> On Friday 01 October 2010 17:53:34 Jorge Llambías wrote:
>>
>> My preference is for being as systematic as possible, so:
>>
>> zmadu fi lo ka broda -> rodmau
>> mleca fi lo ka broda -> rodme'a
>> traji lo ka broda -> rodrai
>> mutce lo ka broda -> rodytce
>> milxe lo ka broda -> rodmli
>> cenba lo ka broda -> rodycne
>> zenba lo ka broda -> rodze'a
>> jdika lo ka broda -> rodjdika
>>
>> and probably some more I'm forgetting.
>
I would say you are basically treating "mutce" as if it were in
selma'o NAhE instead of being a gismu with its own place structure.
Something like:
to'e broda -> tolbroda
na'e broda -> nalbroda
no'e broda -> norbroda
mutce broda -> tcebroda
milxe broda -> mlibroda
>> If you prefer "tcebroda" then presumably you should also prefer
>> "zmabroda" and "rairbroda", or if not why not?
>
> If "broda" is intransitive, it doesn't make much difference. However, if it is
> transitive, it can make a difference. For instance, mi neizma la bil. lo
> frambesi (I like raspberries more than Bill does) .i mi zmanei lo frambesi lo
> clazme (I like raspberries more than cucumbers).
Right, but why isn't there a difference in the case of "mutce"? Most
gismu are 'transitive', so if "xautce" means something like
"excellent" (mutce lo ka xamgu), would "tcexau" mean something like
"good for extremists" (xamgu lo mutce)? Or "good by extreme standards"
(xamgu fi lo mutce)?
If you say it simply means "mutce xamgu", which most often would be
understood in the sense of "mutce lo ka xamgu", then you are using a
different system for lujvo with "mutce" from the one you use for lujvo
with "zmadu" and "traji".
>> A similar discrepancy I have with those who prefer prefix sim- to
>> suffix -si'u for reciprocals.
>
> lo girzu cu tavysi'u .iku'i mi simtavla do
Indeed. But not everybody agrees with that. Look for example at the
definitions entered in jbovlaste for "simbi'o", "simda'a", "simpe'o".
Robert LeChevalier
I think that there is a difference between mutce/milxe and zmadu/mleca
I can say that x is bigger than y, without necessarily wishing to claim
that x in big in an absolute sense. The essence of the claim is the
relative comparison.
For mutce and milxe, the property being compared is the essential claim,
and the mutce and milxe are adjectivally modifying that property (which
is not normally the case with zmadu/mleca).
traji seems like it could go either way, with the essence either being
the extremeness, the main property being modified by an adjectival
extremeness. I tend to use the former, because the latter seems to me
more of a "mutce traji" as the adjective modifying the basic property.
But I am willing to concede that this may be colored by my English-based
views of the words. Especially since traji can be used for both
extremes of a scale, it seems that any systematic usage should reflect
that option, and not assume that it means "most"
lojbab
Jorge Llambías
>
> I think that there is a difference between mutce/milxe and zmadu/mleca
Of course there's a semantic difference, but are they structurally
different enough that they will use different paradigms for making
lujvo?
> I can say that x is bigger than y, without necessarily wishing to claim that
> x in big in an absolute sense. The essence of the claim is the relative
> comparison.
You can only compare two things in the "ka broda" dimension if the two
things (or at the very least one of them) has some measure in that
dimension. If neither of the two has any "ka broda", then it doesn't
make sense to say that one of them has more of it than the other.
Now, Lojban doesn't really have a very proper word for "size", but
when we use "lo ka barda" for it we are assuming that the two things
compared have at least a minimum amount of it. No matter how small
they are, they still must have some "ka barda" in order to say that
one has more of it than the other.
> For mutce and milxe, the property being compared is the essential claim, and
> the mutce and milxe are adjectivally modifying that property (which is not
> normally the case with zmadu/mleca).
"Adjectivally modifying" does not apply to Lojban. If you are saying
that when you say "mutce barda" you are thinking of something other
that "mutce lo ka barda", then please explain in Lojban what it is
that you are thinking of, because I don't really understand the
distinction you want to make.
> traji seems like it could go either way, with the essence either being the
> extremeness, the main property being modified by an adjectival extremeness.
> I tend to use the former, because the latter seems to me more of a "mutce
> traji" as the adjective modifying the basic property. But I am willing to
> concede that this may be colored by my English-based views of the words.
It seems as if you were saying that in "ko'a mutce lo ka broda" you
were somehow assigning brodaness to ko'a less essentially than in
"ko'a ckaji lo ka broda" or in "ko'a broda". Is that what you are
saying?
> Especially since traji can be used for both extremes of a scale, it seems
> that any systematic usage should reflect that option, and not assume that it
> means "most"
Those who accept that strange definition of "traji" will be in trouble
whenever they want to use "traji", but so far I don't remember anyone
actually paying any attention to the x3 slot. Everyone seems to use it
with the sensible meaning of "x1 has more of property x2 than anyone
else among x4". But this issue doesn't really affect the question of
whether it's used as a prefix or as a suffix.
Michael Turniansky
Remo Dentato
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And this is the point -- with most
> lujvo [...] we make
> the lujvo in the order of {seltau,tertau},[...]
> jungau (<- djuno gasnu <- gasnu lo nu x2 djuno),
> [...] so I see no reason to break
> that pattern with mutce.
I like this pattern! As a learner I found patterns of paramount
importance to try to memorize things.
Please do not break it and let's use -tce and other suffixes as the
preferred way.
Jorge Llambías
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I happen to agree with xorxes (yeah, one of those rare times :-) )
Hey, it's not _that_ rare. The problem is that if you say ".i mi klama
lo zarci ba'o lo nu mi cavlu'i" I will not say:
I agree with your use of ".i".
I agree with your first use of "mi".
I agree with your use of "klama".
I agree with your first use of "lo".
I agree with your use of "zarci".
I agree with your second use of "lo".
I agree with your use of "nu".
I agree with your second use of "mi".
I agree with your use of "cavlu'i".
I will only say:
I disagree with your use of "ba'o".
So the 90% agreement goes by unnoticed, and only the 10% disagreement
receives all the attention. And that's in a sentence where there is
any disagreement at all. For most sentences there will be 100%
agreement. If I say "mi klama lo zarci ca lo nu mi ba'o cavlu'i", I'm
sure we will not have any disagreement at all. And most sentences are
like that. :)
> that
> brodytce is preferable to tcebroda and while the underlying tanru can be
> thought of as either "mutce broda" or "broda mutce"
I think this is something of a problem when thinking about lujvo.
There is no "underlying tanru" in lujvo. I know that the official
literature talks that way sometimes, but that only makes sense when
considering the meaning of the x1 of a lujvo. It doesn't help much
with the full meaning of a lujvo.
> it cannot be denied that expanded out,
>what is really being said is x1 mutce lo ka broda kei. (So
> really, broda mutce is really more proper, but I admit as an English
> speaker, I'm more likely to invert it).
I think we should blame the French.
It's easy to explain "tsa-mau" as "strong-er" and "tsa-rai" as
"strong-est", but there's no "strong-issimo" in English to explain
"tsa-tce", so we are left with the tanruish "very strong" instead of a
proper English lujvo. If the French had kept the Latin -issimus suffix
like the other Romance languages did, then they could have passed it
on to English and we wouldn't need to be having this discussion. (I
think in Latin it was actually a superlative, but it's an augmentative
in Spanish.)
> And this is the point -- with most
> lujvo where the x2 of the full expansion of the underlying tanru is (an
> abstraction involving) the seltau and the selbri being the tertau, we make
> the lujvo in the order of {seltau,tertau}, as well we should,
> since the lujvo is a type of {tertau}. Ex. mrobi'o (<- morsi binxo <-
> binxo lo morsi), jungau (<- djuno gasnu <- gasnu lo nu x2 djuno), larfi'i
> (<- larcu finti <- finti x2 noi lo larcu), etc. so I see no reason to break
> that pattern with mutce.
Right.
And I see no problem at all with the tanru "mutce broda". But a lujvo
does not "come from a tanru".
Ian Johnson
Jorge Llambías
> Then why does the word {lujvo} even have an x4?
Indeed. What's the "metaphor" from which the lujvo "selbri" is built,
for example?
Most lujvo are not the least bit metaphorical.
Luke Bergen
Luke Bergen
Jonathan Jones
ta'onaiI was reading a book by Cory Doctorow and he makes reference at one point to "Fingerspitzengefühl" a german word that means <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerspitzengef%C3%BChl>. He then talks about how the german language is able to smush lots of small words together until you end up with a long but incredibly precise word that means something that is very hard to express in other languages without having to write out long sentences to describe the thing.I hope that one day people say that of lojban. That's what I hope lujvo will help us do. That's what I was talking about earlier when I said that it's slightly irritating when I see lots of lujvo being defined, all of which are other languages words. Let's make some lojban originals!
nunmumdjedormijmlibavbijlivmlibavysamselmrifondesku, nu1=x1 is an event of phone desku1=fonxa1=x2 in phone network fonxa2=x3 shaking from e-mail samselmri1=desku2=x4 sent by samselmri2=x5 (agent) to samselmri3=x6 from computer samselmri4=x7 by computer system system samselmri5=x8 shortly after cliva1=x9 leaves office briju1=cliva2=x10 by route cliva3=x11 shortly after afternoon dormidju1=x12 of Friday mumdei1=dormidju2=x13 at location dormidju3=x14 of week mumdei2=x15 in calendar mumdei3=x16
I think it can be said for Lojban NOW. :D
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Luke Bergen
--
Jorge Llambías
> oh that's sweet. That'd take forever to memorize. I have a new mission in
> life. Define lujvo that no other language has a word for yet. And I shall
> call this activity: nunynonbaupo'evlafi'i
Presumably that's from "nu finti lo valsi poi no bangu cu ponse (ke'a)".
Let's set aside the question of whether languages can own any words.
The major problem I have with the structure of that lujvo is how to
get the "nonbaupo'e" part from "no bangu cu ponse (ke'a)".
I'm not saying it's wrong, only that we don't really have any rules
for constructing lujvo out of whole bridi. All our rules really boil
down to reducing everything to two part lujvo. My first interpretation
for "nonbau" would be from "bangu be no da", something like "x1 is a
language with no speakers", not from "no bangu". And a "nonbaupo'e"
would be the owner of such a language. "nonbaupo'evla" could then be
"x1 is a word meaning 'owner of a language with no speakers' " and
then your lujvo would be "x1 is an event of creating words meaning
'owner of a language with no speakers'".
But as I said, we don't really have conventions for many-component
lujvo, since they are so cumbersome that nobody uses them. So if what
you want is clarity, it is better to avoid long lujvo. For purposes of
obfuscation they can be rather useful though.
Jonathan Jones
Jorge Llambías
>
> Well, according to jbofi'e, {nunynonbaupo'evlafi'i} means "being event(s) of
> 0??-language-ish-possess-ing-word-ish-create-r(s)??".
But that's not proper English. What does it mean when translated from
Jboglish jargon into English?
> It looks to me like it
> was made by using the simplest method of lujvo creation, i.e., smashing a
> tanru into one word, much like {gerku zdani} becomes {gerzda}.
"gerzda" is supposed to mean "zdani be lo gerku". The tanru "gerku
zdani" doesn't really help us much with the meaning.
Luke Bergen
Jorge Llambías
> Yeah, basically that's what I did. Took a long-arse tanru and smooshed it
> into a lujvo.
What was your long-arse tanru? How did "no" fit in there?
> My question is, xorxes, if you saw {mi nelci lo nu nunynonbaupo'evlafi'i}
> would you get what I was saying?
I don't know, try me next time we are talking in Lojban. I would
certainly not get it at first sight, and probably not without some
relevant context.
> Tanru
> are useful, they don't all have to be broken down into explicit bridi.
Why not just stick with tanru then?
Jonathan Jones
Jorge Llambías
> 2010/10/5 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>
>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Tanru
>> > are useful, they don't all have to be broken down into explicit bridi.
>>
>> Why not just stick with tanru then?
>
But they do require a more specific meaning. So you have to choose
between short with a specific meaning or a bit longer without a very
specific meaning.
Krzysztof Sobolewski
> Um, because lujvo are shorter?
This reminds mi...
{mrobi'o} is exactly the same length (syllabe-wise) as {mrobinxo}. Why should I prefer the former?
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
One day maybe, keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you..." - J. Walker
Luke Bergen
Jorge Llambías
> because some times tanru get used often enough that people get tired of
> saying {gerku zdani} and decide that it is a concept unto it's own and
> deserves it's own word, if for no other reason than brevity.
I don't actually recall any examples of that ever happening yet. Most
lujvo I see people using seem to have a different source. Do you have
an actual example in mind or are you just repeating the theory?
> and my tanru was { nu me li no ku bangu ponse valsi finti } =p
No "ku" there! Terminators could be "boi lo'o me'u", but they can all be elided.
Not strictly a tanru though, because of the "nu", but the thing inside
the "nu" is a tanru.
So what's a "zero type of language"?
> Here's one that occurred to me. {mumdeita'i}. Let {lo ka ko'a mumdeita'i}
> mean that {ko'a} is tired in that way that one often feels tired on a friday
> after work. Or for you xorxes: mumdeita'i = ko'a menli ja xadni tatpi tai
> lo nu ko'a mu'o gunka ca lo mumdei bu'u lo briju .a lo gunka selzvati
For me you would use "jimdei" for "Friday", not "mumday", "a five-day period".
But mumdei actually happens to work quite well here, "tatpi lo djedi
be li mu", "tired from the five-day long period (the work-week)".
Jonathan Jones
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:I don't actually recall any examples of that ever happening yet. Most
> because some times tanru get used often enough that people get tired of
> saying {gerku zdani} and decide that it is a concept unto it's own and
> deserves it's own word, if for no other reason than brevity.
lujvo I see people using seem to have a different source. Do you have
an actual example in mind or are you just repeating the theory?
No "ku" there! Terminators could be "boi lo'o me'u", but they can all be elided.
> and my tanru was { nu me li no ku bangu ponse valsi finti } =p
Not strictly a tanru though, because of the "nu", but the thing inside
the "nu" is a tanru.
So what's a "zero type of language"?
> Here's one that occurred to me. {mumdeita'i}. Let {lo ka ko'a mumdeita'i}
> mean that {ko'a} is tired in that way that one often feels tired on a friday
> after work. Or for you xorxes: mumdeita'i = ko'a menli ja xadni tatpi tai
> lo nu ko'a mu'o gunka ca lo mumdei bu'u lo briju .a lo gunka selzvati
For me you would use "jimdei" for "Friday", not "mumday(sic)", "a five-day period".
But mumdei actually happens to work quite well here, "tatpi lo djedi
be li mu", "tired from the five-day long period (the work-week)".
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Sic'em boy! :D (Sorry, I had to.)
Luke Bergen
--
Jorge Llambías
> Blargh, I can't stand {jimdei}. To me it smacks of malpo'o.
Possibly. But "mumdei" might be horribly confusing to those whose
native language's word for Thursday is something like "fifth day". A
little malzdo would be preferrable to horrible confusion.
We should ask a Hebrew, Portuguese, Greek, Georgian, Armenian,
Vietnamese, Icelandic, Arabic, Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Sundanese,
Persian, Kazakh or Turkish speaker what they think.
> And why is {mumdei} a span of 5 days?
Because of the "mu", how many else would it be?
> According to vlasisku both mumdei and jimdei
> have the same definition (http://vlasisku.lojban.org/friday).
That's why I said if you were writing "for me". I know that "mumdei"
has been (not very thoughtfully in my opinion) defined as "Friday".
> So either
> jimdei also means "5 day period" or either one can be used to refer to
> friday.
Or only one of them could mean Friday, or neither.
> Incidentally, mi mumdeita'i ca lo reldei .oiro'e .i mi bilga tu'a ci djedi
> ji'a
.i a'o do zi cpacu lo nejni
Luke Bergen
Jonathan Jones
Doesn't the CLL talk somewhere about how making monday be 1 works for all cultures because sunday can be day 0 or day 7. Personally that's how I remember weekday names in lojban anyway, I call sunday nondei.
I don't really care what the system is for naming days but it seems like they should be sequential in some way in stead of seemingly random names. e.g. I prefer pavmasti to vormasti
I don't know about days of the week, but I do know that Japanese uses numbers for months. I would assume that most languages use either a Roman derived system, as English does, or a Chinese(?) based system, which I believe is where jimdei comes from.
Personally, I prefer to use numbering for both weekdays and months, for the same reason I prefer the metric system. (no way! An U.S.American that prefers metric?!?! They exist?!?!) Easier to remember. (There's 16 pints in a gallon, right?)
Jorge Llambías
> Doesn't the CLL talk somewhere about how making monday be 1 works for all
> cultures because sunday can be day 0 or day 7.
It might, I don't exactly remember. What do YOU think (about the
issue, not about what CLL says)? How well would "mumdei" work for
"Friday" for someone whose word for "Thurday" is something like "fifth
day". Or for a Swahili speaker, whose word for Wednesday is something
like "fifth day". I don't really know, because in the languages I know
the weekdays are not called by numbers, but my guess is that switching
from one number to a different number could be quite confusing,
independently of whether Sunday is day 0 or day 7.
> Personally that's how I
> remember weekday names in lojban anyway, I call sunday nondei.
Right, you don't have any interference from English, which doesn't use
numbers to name the days of the week. I don't have interference from
Spanish either. I'm just speculating on what people who do have
inteference from their native language would think about this.
> I don't really care what the system is for naming days but it seems like
> they should be sequential in some way in stead of seemingly random names.
> e.g. I prefer pavmasti to vormasti
Any numerical sequence is unfortunately going to be in conflict with
some languages, because there are three different numerical systems in
use.
We can just say we don't care, we'll go with the ISO norm and if that
is horribly confusing for speakers of some languages, so be it, not
our problem.
Jonathan Jones
Works for me. I can see how people who are native to number-using languages that don't start monday=1-day could be confused, but I somehow doubt that someone from those languages who is serious about learning the language would change their mind because of it.
In any case, until we decide on a single scheme and use it exclusively, which seems much more important to me than exactly what that system is, I'd say any discussion about such confusions is moot.
Jorge Llambías
>
> I don't know about days of the week, but I do know that Japanese uses
> numbers for months. I would assume that most languages use either a Roman
> derived system, as English does, or a Chinese(?) based system, which I
> believe is where jimdei comes from.
There are several systems in use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week-day_names
In Chinese they have switched to a number based system, with Monday = 1.
> Personally, I prefer to use numbering for both weekdays and months, for the
> same reason I prefer the metric system. (no way! An U.S.American that
> prefers metric?!?! They exist?!?!) Easier to remember. (There's 16 pints in
> a gallon, right?)
What I don't like about N-dei lujvo for Lojban is that the place
structure of "djedi" strongly suggests that N-dei should mean "djedi
be li N". That, coupled with the potentially confusing conflict with
so many languages, and that learning 7 words is really a very minor
deal, is what makes me prefer the
soldei-lurdei-fagydei-jaurdei-mudydei-jimdei-derdei system.
Jorge Llambías
>
> In any case, until we decide on a single scheme and use it exclusively,
> which seems much more important to me than exactly what that system is, I'd
> say any discussion about such confusions is moot.
I would think the discussion has to come before the decision, not
after. What's the point of discussing it afterwards?
Jonathan Jones
Discussion about which system to use, yes.
Discussion about confusions arising from some people learning the (decided) system, no.
Jorge Llambías
> 2010/10/5 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>
>>
>> I would think the discussion has to come before the decision, not
>> after. What's the point of discussing it afterwards?
>
>
> Discussion about confusions arising from some people learning the (decided)
> system, no.
Why should such potential confusions not be taken into account when
making the decision? It doesn't have to be the single deciding factor,
but it can be one more factor to consider. For me personally, it is
not the deciding factor, but it helped me decide against the numeric
system, which I dislike more for Lojban-internal reasons.
Unfortunately, for month names there isn't an equally nifty solution
as for week-day names, so I haven't made up my mind on that yet.
Fu'ivla names have been proposed, but I'm not too sure I like them.
Jonathan Jones
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/10/5 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>
>>
>> I would think the discussion has to come before the decision, not
>> after. What's the point of discussing it afterwards?
>
> Discussion about which system to use, yes.Why should such potential confusions not be taken into account when
>
> Discussion about confusions arising from some people learning the (decided)
> system, no.
making the decision? It doesn't have to be the single deciding factor,
but it can be one more factor to consider. For me personally, it is
not the deciding factor, but it helped me decide against the numeric
system, which I dislike more for Lojban-internal reasons.
So, what are your Lojban-internal reasons? I am very much interesting in hearing them.
Unfortunately, for month names there isn't an equally nifty solution
as for week-day names, so I haven't made up my mind on that yet.
Fu'ivla names have been proposed, but I'm not too sure I like them.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Well, considering my dislike of fu'ivla in general, I don't think I need to state my opinion on that.
Jorge Llambías
>
> So, what are your Lojban-internal reasons? I am very much interesting in
> hearing them.
I already gave them: the place structure of "djedi" screams for
"N-dei" to mean "djedi be li N", not "djedi me'e li N". How would you
interpret "reljeftu" for example, to pick one without interference
from names? Isn't that obviously a word asking to mean "fortnight"?
And what about "mumymentu"? Isn't that a five-minute interval?
Jonathan Jones
Ah. Okay, so out of curiosity, what you use for "1-day", since {pavdei} obviously isn't it?
Jorge Llambías
>
> Ah. Okay, so out of curiosity, what you use for "1-day", since {pavdei}
> obviously isn't it?
What do you mean by "1-day"? "Monday"? I use "lurdei".
Jonathan Jones
No. I mean "1-day". As in "the day of the week named '1'", in the same sense that Monday is "the day of the week named 'Moon'".
Jorge Llambías
>
> No. I mean "1-day". As in "the day of the week named '1'", in the same sense
> that Monday is "the day of the week named 'Moon'".
I haven't really thought about other possible schemes based on numbers
but not directly number-day for lojban. It would inevitably require at
least a three part lujvo. Maybe "pavbordei", "relbordei",...? Just
thinking aloud.
Jonathan Jones
Actually, I just had a thought. What would you understand {.djepav.} to mean? Or, to do something grammatically illegal, {djepa}?
Jorge Llambías
>
> Actually, I just had a thought. What would you understand {.djepav.} to
> mean? Or, to do something grammatically illegal, {djepa}?
Mmm... I like illegal! :)
It still has the problem of being potentially confusing for speakers
of some languages, but from a purely Lojbanic perspective it's a great
way to get rid of the place structure of djedi.
Could we do something similar for months?
Jonathan Jones
{masti} only has a cv'v form rafsi, so we couldn't do thee same thing as for {djeNN}, as in make a fake gismu. It would be {ma'ipa} et al., which break up into {ma'i NN}. We could do {.ma'ipav.} et al., and go into the hex digits for 10 - 12, assuming they have rafsi.
Jonathan Jones
2010/10/5 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:15 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, I just had a thought. What would you understand {.djepav.} to
> mean? Or, to do something grammatically illegal, {djepa}?
Mmm... I like illegal! :)
It still has the problem of being potentially confusing for speakers
of some languages, but from a purely Lojbanic perspective it's a great
way to get rid of the place structure of djedi.
Could we do something similar for months?
mu'o mi'e xorxes
{masti} only has a cv'v form rafsi, so we couldn't do thee same thing as for {djeNN}, as in make a fake gismu. It would be {ma'ipa} et al., which break up into {ma'i NN}. We could do {.ma'ipav.} et al., and go into the hex digits for 10 - 12, assuming they have rafsi.
So, assuming a large portion of jbogugde likes my latest idea, I propose we make the following:
{djeNN} "x1 is day of week NN"
Unless someone else has a better definition idea, and submit it to jbovlaste.
Jonathan Jones
Jorge Llambías
>
> {masti} only has a cv'v form rafsi, so we couldn't do thee same thing as for
> {djeNN}, as in make a fake gismu. It would be {ma'ipa} et al., which break
> up into {ma'i NN}. We could do {.ma'ipav.} et al., and go into the hex
> digits for 10 - 12, assuming they have rafsi.
No rafsi for hex digits. For cmevla there's the old pamast, remast,
cimast, ... but cmevla have their own issues.
How about: lunrapa, lunrare, lunraci, lunravo, lunramu, lunraxa,
lunraze, lunrabi, lunraso, lunradau, lunrafei, lunragai
Jonathan Jones
Well, they don't fall apart in jbofi'e, and I like the moon reference. Do we really not have anything other than cmevla for the months yet?
So, basically, we have "djeNN" for the days of the week, and "lunraNN[N]" for the months. I like it. Really easy to remember, just as easy to figure out, makes logical sense (big points there), and isn't a friggin' cmevla or fu'ivla.
I think it's time to start a thread on this in the beginner's group and put them to a vote.
Jorge Llambías
>
> So, basically, we have "djeNN" for the days of the week, and "lunraNN[N]"
> for the months. I like it. Really easy to remember, just as easy to figure
> out, makes logical sense (big points there), and isn't a friggin' cmevla or
> fu'ivla.
Ehhhmm... lunrapa, lunrare, ..., lunragai are all fu'ivla. Unless by
"fu'ivla" you don't mean form.
> I think it's time to start a thread on this in the beginner's group and put
> them to a vote.
I'm not sure it's the kind of thing beginners should be deciding though.
Jonathan Jones
2010/10/5 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, basically, we have "djeNN" for the days of the week, and "lunraNN[N]"
> for the months. I like it. Really easy to remember, just as easy to figure
> out, makes logical sense (big points there), and isn't a friggin' cmevla or
> fu'ivla.
Ehhhmm... lunrapa, lunrare, ..., lunragai are all fu'ivla. Unless by
"fu'ivla" you don't mean form.
I mean they aren't borrowed from another language.
(And have evil, difficult pronunciation. Forgot that point. :) )
> I think it's time to start a thread on this in the beginner's group and putI'm not sure it's the kind of thing beginners should be deciding though.
> them to a vote.
Well, I'm pretty sure everyone involved with Lojban is on the beginner's group, and so posting it there would reach the largest number of jbopre. It was either that or the BPFK list, and I don't think this is, yet, an issue for the BPFK, considering the BPFK is still on the describe-everything-in-the-language point, so the add-new-stuff point is still a bit off.
In other words, officialness is pretty much a guaranteed no, but usage is a possible yes. Hence, the beginner's list.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Jonathan Jones
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:Ehhhmm... lunrapa, lunrare, ..., lunragai are all fu'ivla. Unless by
>
> So, basically, we have "djeNN" for the days of the week, and "lunraNN[N]"
> for the months. I like it. Really easy to remember, just as easy to figure
> out, makes logical sense (big points there), and isn't a friggin' cmevla or
> fu'ivla.
"fu'ivla" you don't mean form.
> I think it's time to start a thread on this in the beginner's group and put
> them to a vote.
I'm not sure it's the kind of thing beginners should be deciding though.
Well, I'm pretty sure everyone involved with Lojban is on the beginner's group, and so posting it there would reach the largest number of jbopre. It was either that or the BPFK list, and I don't think this is, yet, an issue for the BPFK, considering the BPFK is still on the describe-everything-in-the-language point, so the add-new-stuff point is still a bit off.
In other words, officialness is pretty much a guaranteed no, but usage is a possible yes. Hence, the beginner's list.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Jorge Llambías
>
> Well, I'm pretty sure everyone involved with Lojban is on the beginner's
> group, and so posting it there would reach the largest number of jbopre.
I would have guessed most people were on this list, not beginners, but
I have no idea really.
> It
> was either that or the BPFK list, and I don't think this is, yet, an issue
> for the BPFK, considering the BPFK is still on the
> describe-everything-in-the-language point, so the add-new-stuff point is
> still a bit off.
>
> In other words, officialness is pretty much a guaranteed no, but usage is a
> possible yes. Hence, the beginner's list.
No objections from me then. (But I know a couple of people or ten who
will be horrified by the idea of adding seven new gismu.)
Jorge Llambías
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I mean they aren't borrowed from another language.
>
> (And have evil, difficult pronunciation. Forgot that point. :) )
You're thinking of stage 3 fu'ivla.
Stage 4 fu'ivla are, when chosen carefully as they usually are,
perfectly cromulent.
Jonathan Jones
I had to look that up. And small wonder. I'm actually kind of surprised to see you use a slang word.
Jonathan Jones
Alrighty, I have now sounded my death knell and sent the post. :D
Jorge Llambías
> 2010/10/5 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>
>>
>> Stage 4 fu'ivla are, when chosen carefully as they usually are,
>> perfectly cromulent.
>
> see you use a slang word.
It's a word from The Simpsons, but I learned it from John Cowan.
Michael Turniansky
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Blargh, I can't stand {jimdei}. To me it smacks of malpo'o.
>
> Possibly. But "mumdei" might be horribly confusing to those whose
> native language's word for Thursday is something like "fifth day". A
> little malzdo would be preferrable to horrible confusion.
>
> We should ask a Hebrew, Portuguese, Greek, Georgian, Armenian,
> Vietnamese, Icelandic, Arabic, Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Sundanese,
> Persian, Kazakh or Turkish speaker what they think.
Precisely because of cultural associations (the Sabbath is defined
as the seventh day in the Bible) and Hebrew language associations (the
first six days are numbered, with the seventh day being "The
Sabbath"), I get confused and dislike the fact that the lojban day
numbering system starts with Monday. However, I accept it as the
price of "cultural neutrality (*coughcough*)". Accepting a
different, conflicting system of doing something is part and parcel of
learning a new language/culture (and at least it's not as
potentionally lethal as remembering which side of the road to drive on
as you leave the Chunnel in either direction (unless of course, you
are, say, scheduling trains to run on certain tracks on certain days
of teh week, or similar)) And I certainly don't hate it as much as I
do the non-numerical day system, because there is no way in heck I
coulde ever remember those seven days. At least numbering is
rational.
--gejyspa