taking action
Bruno Panasiewicz
Hi there.
I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking, writing, and complains about it.
Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one line of Lojban/English every day.
I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.
One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please add something to it.
— mi'e la uakci mu'o
Jonathan Jones
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.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Bruno Panasiewicz
Timothy Lawrence
To the Interactive Story perhaps?
Is it this one?
http://www.lojban.org/old-style/texts/original/lojban_story/
Sent: Monday, 8 August 2016 8:04 PM
To: mriste
Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action
Bruno Panasiewicz
On Aug 8, 2016 1:59 PM, "Timothy Lawrence" <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
> To the Interactive Story perhaps?
>
>
> Is it this one? http://www.lojban.org/old-style/texts/original/lojban_story/
Ah, no. I'm talking about the «lo lisri pe la .norman.» mail thread.
— mi'e do'u
>
> ________________________________
> From: loj...@googlegroups.com <loj...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 August 2016 8:04 PM
> To: mriste
> Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action
>
> To?
>
> On 8 August 2016 at 10:04, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Links?
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi there.
>>>
>>> I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking, writing, and complains about it.
>>> Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
>>> I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one line of Lojban/English every day.
>>> I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.
>>>
>>> One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please add something to it.
>>>
>>> — mi'e la uakci mu'o
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
selpahi
> To the Interactive Story perhaps?
>
>
> Is it this one? http://www.lojban.org/old-style/texts/original/lojban_story/
~~~mi'e la selpa'i
Jonathan Jones
Bruno Panasiewicz
On Aug 8, 2016 8:49 PM, "Jonathan Jones" <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To the things you mentioned. Until this, I'd never heard of either.
That's bad news. The 'Interactive Story' script is out there for a few years, and I think it's mentioned in many enough places. The Story of Norman is a mail thread («lo lisri pe la .norman. zi'e pe lo si'o nunjikca ru'e lisri») spanning over six weeks and twenty posts. How come didn't you notice? le'o
— mi'e mi ra'u mu'o
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 4:04 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> To?
>>
>> On 8 August 2016 at 10:04, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Links?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi there.
>>>>
>>>> I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking, writing, and complains about it.
>>>> Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
>>>> I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one line of Lojban/English every day.
>>>> I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.
>>>>
>>>> One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please add something to it.
>>>>
>>>> — mi'e la uakci mu'o
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
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>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
Ilmen
As for the Crash Course, the link is: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)
Timothy Lawrence
I would be more than happy to offer small monetary rewards for community involvement, such as contributing translations, flashcards, stories, poems or diary entries - including from learners. One idea is that a bounty could be given to a random contributor over a week or so. The condition would be that all work submitted would be with the CC0 content licence or similar.
If anyone knows a system that is good for facilitating something like this, let me know.
I have found https://www.bountysource.com/ but it looks like it needs GitHub or similar (at the moment) which might be a barrier to many possible contributors. Maybe we could make a hub for all the community projects using a supported platform?
I have also found https://www.patreon.com/ but it seems more for regular individual creators, rather than once-off "competitions". That said, I would be interested in supporting some regular contributors in this way too.
To: mriste
Subject: [lojban] taking action
Jonathan Jones
On Aug 8, 2016 8:49 PM, "Jonathan Jones" <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To the things you mentioned. Until this, I'd never heard of either.That's bad news. The 'Interactive Story' script is out there for a few years, and I think it's mentioned in many enough places. The Story of Norman is a mail thread («lo lisri pe la .norman. zi'e pe lo si'o nunjikca ru'e lisri») spanning over six weeks and twenty posts. How come didn't you notice? le'o
— mi'e mi ra'u mu'o
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 4:04 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> To?
>>
>> On 8 August 2016 at 10:04, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Links?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi there.
>>>>
>>>> I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking, writing, and complains about it.
>>>> Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
>>>> I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one line of Lojban/English every day.
>>>> I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.
>>>>
>>>> One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please add something to it.
>>>>
>>>> — mi'e la uakci mu'o
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
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>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Bruno Panasiewicz
On Aug 9, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jonathan Jones" <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I haven't really been paying attention to anything Lojban in a few years. The in-fighting got on my nerves too much, and that lack of anyone local to talk to made me lose pretty much all interest.
Well then, I hope that your interest will rise up again!
— mi'e uy
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2016 8:49 PM, "Jonathan Jones" <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > To the things you mentioned. Until this, I'd never heard of either.
>>
>> That's bad news. The 'Interactive Story' script is out there for a few years, and I think it's mentioned in many enough places. The Story of Norman is a mail thread («lo lisri pe la .norman. zi'e pe lo si'o nunjikca ru'e lisri») spanning over six weeks and twenty posts. How come didn't you notice? le'o
>>
>> — mi'e mi ra'u mu'o
>>
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 4:04 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> To?
>> >>
>> >> On 8 August 2016 at 10:04, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Links?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi there.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking, writing, and complains about it.
>> >>>> Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
>> >>>> I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one line of Lojban/English every day.
>> >>>> I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please add something to it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> — mi'e la uakci mu'o
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >>>
>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
Bruno Panasiewicz
No offense, but that's a horrible idea. Let me tell you why:
• there's no contract or anything, so those who do less while seeming to do a lot will get the same amount as those who really work hard.
• there'd be a need for a lot of money, otherwise it wouldn't gain interest.
• once the money is gone, the workers are gone.
I think that volunteering is the best choice at this point. I don't want Lojbanistan to be a country of money, but of a great community and a great language.
— mi'e la uakci mu'o
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Timothy Lawrence
Yeah it's probably a bad idea for contributions of small texts.
To be honest I was more interested in trialling it so it could be used for the bigger Lojban projects as some people should be rewarded for spending a lot of their time on great projects :)
I certainly can't give anyone a salary but I just wanted to give a thank-you, to make contributors feel valuable. Like a chocolate or such, but they are harder to send. It was just an idea.
To: mriste
Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action
No offense, but that's a horrible idea. Let me tell you why:
Bruno Panasiewicz
On Aug 9, 2016 12:10 PM, "Timothy Lawrence" <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
> Yeah it's probably a bad idea for contributions of small texts.
>
>
> To be honest I was more interested in trialling it so it could be used for the bigger Lojban projects as some people should be rewarded for spending a lot of their time on great projects :)
>
>
> I certainly can't give anyone a salary but I just wanted to give a thank-you, to make contributors feel valuable. Like a chocolate or such, but they are harder to send. It was just an idea.
That's the other way around. Rather than giving and expecting work, it's seeing work and giving. THAT is a good idea.
Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG
> Hi there.
>
> I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently
> happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where
> people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the
> opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking,
> writing, and complains about it.
> Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to
> propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be
> a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs
> help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
> I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I
> think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could
> be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one
> line of Lojban/English every day.
> I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not
> just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.
>
> One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please
> add something to it.
----------------------------------
LLG, the Lojban community organization, is attempting to get itself
reactivated. Alas, for several years it was dependent on one person,
Robin Powell, who ran the website but also ran byfy and was doing the
revision for CLL (the red book).
Volunteerism dried up, and we didn't have anyone to act on suggestions
like the above. I myself have been in declining health and had much
less time for Lojban in recent years.
We now have a new Board and officers. I am delegating community
outreach to two of them (Curtis Franks and Karen Stein). I am hoping
that they will post to this and other threads shortly (as well as to
IRC). Please make your complaints about lack of organization to them,
as well as your suggestions for new initiatives that the community can
undertake. They will have some capacity to act on their own, and will
be reporting to the LLG Board of Directors, so that ideas start turning
into action.
At the very least we should be able to coordinate setting aside a
prominent place on the website where new ideas can be posted, and maybe
get some people to assume leadership in motivating others to become
active and to stay involved.
There also has been discussion of a small quasi-competitive prize fund
that would be a reward for the most significant contributions to the
community. There would be periodic fixed-amount prizes in several
categories, funded from the LLG budget (as well as any donations
specifically for that purpose). The details have to be discussed, and
I will urge the two outreachers to lead discussion on that topic.
I urge people to offer their ideas, and more importantly their
commitment to act in support of ideas that are implemented. 99% of the
ideas proposed in the last several years have died simply because the
person attempting to lead the effort got zero volunteer response to help
in implementing them.
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier
President, LLG
Bruno Panasiewicz
On Aug 12, 2016 9:28 PM, "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> On 8/7/2016 5:00 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote:
>>
>> Hi there.
>>
>> I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently
>> happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where
>> people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the
>> opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking,
>> writing, and complains about it.
>> Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to
>> propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be
>> a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs
>> help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
>> I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I
>> think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could
>> be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one
>> line of Lojban/English every day.
>> I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not
>> just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.
>>
>> One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please
>> add something to it.
>
>
> Probably because nobody has even heard of it. This needs to change.
Agreed; though it's hard not to look into a two-month thread.
>
> ----------------------------------
>
>
> LLG, the Lojban community organization, is attempting to get itself reactivated. Alas, for several years it was dependent on one person, Robin Powell, who ran the website but also ran byfy and was doing the revision for CLL (the red book).
Why is he no longer in?
>
> Volunteerism dried up, and we didn't have anyone to act on suggestions like the above. I myself have been in declining health and had much less time for Lojban in recent years.
>
> We now have a new Board and officers. I am delegating community outreach to two of them (Curtis Franks and Karen Stein). I am hoping that they will post to this and other threads shortly (as well as to IRC). Please make your complaints about lack of organization to them, as well as your suggestions for new initiatives that the community can undertake. They will have some capacity to act on their own, and will be reporting to the LLG Board of Directors, so that ideas start turning into action.
That's all good news. I hope we'll benefit from this in the future.
>
> At the very least we should be able to coordinate setting aside a prominent place on the website where new ideas can be posted, and maybe get some people to assume leadership in motivating others to become active and to stay involved.
rova'e agreed.
>
> There also has been discussion of a small quasi-competitive prize fund that would be a reward for the most significant contributions to the community. There would be periodic fixed-amount prizes in several categories, funded from the LLG budget (as well as any donations specifically for that purpose). The details have to be discussed, and I will urge the two outreachers to lead discussion on that topic.
Hmm, the success of such funding depends on how it's organized. As I mentioned earlier, it can make volunteers decline in number, in the worst scenario.
>
> I urge people to offer their ideas, and more importantly their commitment to act in support of ideas that are implemented. 99% of the ideas proposed in the last several years have died simply because the person attempting to lead the effort got zero volunteer response to help in implementing them.
Yeah, it's a big problem. The concepts I mailed about and proposed over a span of only a few months can't be counted on one's hands. On the other hand, the number of those that were implemented can, even on one hand.
>
> lojbab
> Bob LeChevalier
> President, LLG
— mi'e la pu'i uakci mu'o
Bob LeChevalier
>> Probably because nobody has even heard of it. This needs to change.
>
anymore, including me. (Much of the discussion is in Lojban, and I
haven't the time or fluency to even try. And of the stuff that is in
English, it is pretty difficult to keep track of what are ideas and what
stuff is actually being worked on.
>> LLG, the Lojban community organization, is attempting to get itself
> reactivated. Alas, for several years it was dependent on one person,
> Robin Powell, who ran the website but also ran byfy and was doing the
> revision for CLL (the red book).
>
other interests. (Beyond that, you will have to ask him directly.)
>> There also has been discussion of a small quasi-competitive prize fund
> that would be a reward for the most significant contributions to the
> community. There would be periodic fixed-amount prizes in several
> categories, funded from the LLG budget (as well as any donations
> specifically for that purpose). The details have to be discussed, and
> I will urge the two outreachers to lead discussion on that topic.
>
> mentioned earlier, it can make volunteers decline in number, in the
> worst scenario.
Prizes. So far as I know, such prizes are tangential to people actually
deciding to get involved in such activities.
LLG can also use its budget to pay for actual expenses of projects, but
that would not be payment for services (we don't have anywhere near the
money to pay even one person at a salary level).
> Yeah, it's a big problem. The concepts I mailed about and proposed over
> a span of only a few months can't be counted on one's hands. On the
> other hand, the number of those that were implemented can, even on one hand.
recall reading any postings of yours before today.
But let's see if that can change. Not so much me keeping up (because I
can't anymore), but LLG in the form of my two outreach people. Please
encourage them when they post. We're rather new at this type of thing,
and need to find out what will work.
lojbab
Bruno Panasiewicz
On Aug 12, 2016 10:26 PM, "Bob LeChevalier" <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> On 8/12/2016 4:02 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote:
>>>
>>> Probably because nobody has even heard of it. This needs to change.
>>
>>
>> Agreed; though it's hard not to look into a two-month thread.
>
>
> There are a lot of people who don't try to keep up with Lojban List anymore, including me. (Much of the discussion is in Lojban, and I haven't the time or fluency to even try. And of the stuff that is in English, it is pretty difficult to keep track of what are ideas and what stuff is actually being worked on.
Agree. Newer services (like Reddit) seem to be getting attention, while the mailing list drops in popularity. Some even don't want to use mail, for some reason.
>
>
>>> LLG, the Lojban community organization, is attempting to get itself
>>
>> reactivated. Alas, for several years it was dependent on one person,
>> Robin Powell, who ran the website but also ran byfy and was doing the
>> revision for CLL (the red book).
>>
>> Why is he no longer in?
>
>
> He has chosen to "drop out" at least for a while, so that he can work on other interests. (Beyond that, you will have to ask him directly.)
OK, that's all I want to know, thanks.
>
>>> There also has been discussion of a small quasi-competitive prize fund
>>
>> that would be a reward for the most significant contributions to the
>> community. There would be periodic fixed-amount prizes in several
>> categories, funded from the LLG budget (as well as any donations
>> specifically for that purpose). The details have to be discussed, and
>> I will urge the two outreachers to lead discussion on that topic.
>>
>> Hmm, the success of such funding depends on how it's organized. As I
>> mentioned earlier, it can make volunteers decline in number, in the
>> worst scenario.
>
>
> We've been thinking in terms of annual awards, chosen kinda like Nobel Prizes. So far as I know, such prizes are tangential to people actually deciding to get involved in such activities.
That is a good idea.
>
> LLG can also use its budget to pay for actual expenses of projects, but that would not be payment for services (we don't have anywhere near the money to pay even one person at a salary level).
Even in such a low-budget case, funding projects with money, be it big or small, is a good idea.
>
>
>> Yeah, it's a big problem. The concepts I mailed about and proposed over
>> a span of only a few months can't be counted on one's hands. On the
>> other hand, the number of those that were implemented can, even on one hand.
>
>
> And to be honest, I don't know a single one of those, and in fact cannot recall reading any postings of yours before today.
That's a bummer. Does that mean I shall make my topics more memorable? (Not the topics themselves, but the ideas.)
>
> But let's see if that can change. Not so much me keeping up (because I can't anymore), but LLG in the form of my two outreach people. Please encourage them when they post. We're rather new at this type of thing, and need to find out what will work.
I'm doing that everytime. I feel like the interest is increasing, for about a month. Hope that the changes in LLG will increase the increase.
>
> lojbab
karis
I want to reintroduce myself since it's been a long time since I've been active in the greater lojban community. I'm also one of the LLG board's outreach people lojbab mentioned.
Let me introduce myself. I started with LLG and learning lojban back in "the old days" (the 1990's) when lojfests were held at lojbab and noras' house in Virginia followed by in-person board meetings. I became too busy when I started having children, and lost almost all the vocabulary I'd learned. I've been involved in learning (very slowly) it again about a year and a half. Now I'm also a member of the board of LLG.
Please, I'm interested in both helping get some of the projects people are interested in get going by helping with organization and encouragement, and as a link to the board for suggestions, discussions, and questions. You can reach me through this group or by email if you want to guarantee I receive your message. I do ask that anything directed to me or Curtis in our outreach rules be written in English as my lojban isn't up to effective conversation.
Thank you,
karis
MorphemeAddict
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karis
karis
MorphemeAddict
Stevo, that sounds wonderful! Please do whatever you can with it, and you may want to add the emails you've collected at the end of the work, or provide a link to a file of them. I am sure others will also find them interesting.
karis
Curtis Franks
How do you think that we can best organize and advertise ongoing projects? What implementation are you envisioning?
___
As a particular note, I would add that if a reward system dried up, then interest in helping a project can basically only dry up to the point at where we currently are. In a sense, we are at our lowest, which has the advantage that the inly direction from here is up (or, at least, not down). We have a great opportunity to innovate and we should not fear worst-case scenarios because we are almost there already in many ways. Moreover, for this specific concern, developing investment in the outcome of a project by initially rewarding participation monetarily may actually motivate a sustained interest in its progress regardless of the continuation of that monetary reward. But I do see the advantages in making small "thank you"-note-like gifts and larger-scale, less guaranteed, competitive reward systems (like a Nobel Prize).
karis
I actually think that when incentives still for work then it may stop to the point of nonexistence rather than where we are now. Now some projects are being done, but there is research that shows people become focused on earning incentives rather than doing the work because they want to do it. At least in the case of people interested in lojban, but not deeply invested their participation in projects week pseeded ese rrobably stop completely.
karis
karis
As far as the question of organizing and advertising projects, have you come up with any ideas? I have one or two, but I'm sure there are many more viable ways to do this.
karis
Timothy Lawrence
la .krtis.
> How do you think that we can best organize and advertise ongoing projects? What implementation are you envisioning?
I think the website should be used to advertise the main / endorsed projects of Lojban.
I think a web-based project-management tool should be used to organise projects centrally.
Phabricator is a free, open source project-management tool which has been mentioned in the mailing list in the past.
It was already used by existing projects, such as a Lojban Speech Recognition Tool mentioned June last year - what happened to that?
We could have http://projects.lojban.org set up with a Phabricator instance that anyone
can use for all Lojban projects.
It can also be used to review content, which I think is quite important so that teams can keep things organised, centralised and official. See below about my website ideas. This would also be really useful for proofreading Lojban works and providing feedback directly on the relevant lines. Phabricator can also be integrated with Git so it can share hosting with GitHub, thus it could also host the CLL project etc..
I suggest Phabricator because I use it for managing my development of a game that I will be publishing with Lojban as an available language, so I have found it to be good, but I welcome alternative suggestions.
la .altair.
> lojban's overall web presence is extremely confusing. I just can't easily figure out which sites I'm supposed to read, which are archival, which are redundant, which are talking about older versions, etc.
I agree the web presence is confusing. To me, this is because the main website appears, to me, to be very disorganised.
This is probably a side-effect of anyone being able to add anything
to the main site wiki
I want to reorganise things but I don't want to break the status quo of the wiki.
I personally think a smaller well-organised website with only official content should be developed. Every change should be code-reviewed (as above) and translated into all target languages, so that no language version of the site "falls behind" in translations.
The current wiki website could be moved to http://wiki.lojban.org or something like that, then linked to by the main website with the caveat that it's not official content.
In terms of demographics, we could really expand the audience by ensuring all Lojban.org official content stays very translated. Just look at how old/different this is, compared to the English page:
https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Lojban&setlang=de
I know this is proposing a lot of work so I offer my help here (I develop websites). I have drafted up the beginnings of a website and have been looking into translation methodologies - neither of these are ready to show yet but, if the community is interested in this, I would be happy to work with a website team to organise this for the future.
I will also help with (reasonable) hosting costs, if that helps.
mi'e la.timoteios.
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2016 4:59 PM
To: lojban
Subject: [lojban] taking action
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
Timothy Lawrence
Sorry, I forgot the link to Phabricator: https://www.phacility.com/phabricator/
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2016 12:02 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action
la .krtis.
> How do you think that we can best organize and advertise ongoing projects? What implementation are you envisioning?
I think the website should be used to advertise the main / endorsed projects of Lojban.
I think a web-based project-management tool should be used to organise projects centrally.
Phabricator is a free, open source project-management tool which has been mentioned in the mailing list in the past.
It was already used by existing projects, such as a Lojban Speech Recognition Tool mentioned June last year - what happened to that?
We could have http://projects.lojban.org set up with a Phabricator instance that anyone
can use for all Lojban projects.
It can also be used to review content, which I think is quite important so that teams can keep things organised, centralised and official. See below about my website ideas. This would also be really useful for proofreading Lojban works and providing feedback directly on the relevant lines. Phabricator can also be integrated with Git so it can share hosting with GitHub, thus it could also host the CLL project etc..
I suggest Phabricator because I use it for managing my development of a game that I will be publishing with Lojban as an available language, so I have found it to be good, but I welcome alternative suggestions.
la .altair.
> lojban's overall web presence is extremely confusing. I just can't easily figure out which sites I'm supposed to read, which are archival, which are redundant, which are talking about older versions, etc.
I agree the web presence is confusing. To me, this is because the main website appears, to me, to be very disorganised.
This is probably a side-effect of anyone being able to add anything to the
main site wiki (after registering).
I want to reorganise things but I don't want to break the status quo of the wiki.
I personally think a smaller well-organised website with only official content should be developed. Every change should be reviewed (as above) and translated into all target languages, so that no language version of the site "falls behind" in translations.
karis
karis
uakci
I think that the wiki should be organized differently. We could make it so that a user's new article belongs to his, um, user space. When the article is blozau'd enough, it's moved to the public space, which will only contain material checked for right information.
— mi'e stidi be su'o da mu'o —
The Board discussed some of the problems with the current website situation, including difficulty identifying official vs not official material. I would be happy to mention you are offering to work on the mess. What sorts of help do you anticipate wanting/needing?
karis
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Timothy Lawrence
mi'e la.timoteios.
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2016 10:19 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action
karis
uakci
I propose that it be a plain HTML site, constantly synchronizing to a Github repository which, in turn, will be connected to workflow organization utility.
~ mi'e co'a se tolzdi be lo nu cusku lu mi'e la uakci mu'o li'u .e lo simsa be ri do'u mu'o ~
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karis
karis
Timothy Lawrence
Definitely there is an argument for simplicity. Raw HTML and CSS is simple from a web development perspective, and it was my first thought, but I feel that using HTML may alienate non-web-developers.
That would separate the text content from the website structure and style, making it more easily translatable and manageable.
Because Phabricator is open source, we could translate it to Lojban or otherwise customise it. It can also automate things like rebuilding the static website whenever a change is made or new translation is committed, et cetera. Come to think of it, it could probably automate much of the deployment of various Lojban projects (including the CLL, although I don't know much about its development so I am not sure).
Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2016 4:08 PM
To: mriste
Curtis Franks
> As far as the question of organizing and advertising projects, have you come up with any ideas? I have one or two, but I'm sure there are many more viable ways to do this.
I have some vague ideas (mostly about organizing), but I would love to hear more concrete offerings (as have been presented in this thread so far) first. I find the advertising and volunteer organizing side to be much more difficult.
Timothy Lawrence
> advertising
I am not sure if it's a problem with advertising or a problem with retention. I fear there may be many initially-eager learners who drop out.
I think smoothing the learning curve will keep more people interested for longer, then more likely to help in projects. This is why I would love to help organise and simplify the main website as one step towards
this.
> volunteer organizing side
We have some great volunteers who probably don't realise they are volunteers. I have been kindly helped by uncountable individuals already.
I think a more formalised/explicit/organised mentoring process might help bring the community closer together. It might help retain more learners and form more invested friendships.
Sent: Wednesday, 24 August 2016 4:13 PM
To: lojban
Subject: [lojban] taking action
> As far as the question of organizing and advertising projects, have you come up with any ideas? I have one or two, but I'm sure there are many more viable ways to do this.
I have some vague ideas (mostly about organizing), but I would love to hear more concrete offerings (as have been presented in this thread so far) first. I find the advertising and volunteer organizing side to be much more difficult.
Josh Holland
On Wed, 24 Aug 2016, at 09:58 AM, Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> > advertising
>
> I am not sure if it's a problem with advertising or a problem with
> retention. I fear there may be many initially-eager learners who drop
> out.
as an interesting and different linguistic challenge. Having now reached
a level I'm happy with (I can read most texts with some effort and
express myself with a fair amount of reference to a dictionary), I've
taken a step back from actively participating in the community (I was
mostly active on IRC) to focus on other projects. I'm (clearly) still on
the mailing lists and will respond if I feel I can add something useful
(such as this point of anecdata). Perhaps I do now have the time at
least to idle on the IRC channels and help out any newbies I see.
mu'o do'u
vpbr...@gmail.com
My own list of slowly advancing tasks/interests looks like this.
Occasionally tweet a haiku. Read other people's tweeted poems. Read longer stuff.
Occasionally answer Quora questions related to lojban.
Create youtube vocabulary-builder slide shows. Did gismu starting with Z. X is in process. Probably skip V. (W Wilson did B, C.)
Translate "Ferdinand the Bull" on a beginner's level. 70% done.
Make lojban recordings that I can listen to while commuting to improve recognition. A few might get posted when I redo them more carefully.
Translate scriptural texts. Doing a little of Isaiah, Luke, and others. Grammar corrected existing texts on github already.
Made the ilmen/uilm glossing parser work offline and improved the glosses used. Wish I could do the same with la sutysisku, because android firefox loses it in the cache.
Created a few anki flash card decks with better glosses for me to learn in idle moments.
Created a gismu flat file database to which I am gradually adding goodies like example sentences, lujvo based on the gismu, types and case roles of the sumti places, frequency ranks.
Writing various python scripts to manipulate dictionaries and texts. For example, one glosses a new text to be read with one helpful line for each first appearance of a word.
Designing rules for using terminators that require no software support to apply and that are learnable, grammatically correct, and reasonably terse. Ku will be scarce, beho more frequent.
Figuring out how to write math with mostly bridi and few mekso, based on Robin's helpful article. (I work as an applied mathematician.)
Sketching what the language specifications and requirements must have been to come up with the language we got.
I'm figuring out whether a better morphophonology could have met the requirements. It should be much simpler.
mihe la bremenli
suzanys
I think a more formalised/explicit/organised mentoring process might help bring the community closer together. It might help retain more learners and form more invested friendships.
On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 5:00:43 PM UTC-4, la uakci wrote:
Hi there.
I'm recently worried too much about that not much is currently happening. I imagine a perfect Lojbanic community as a place where people do lots of translations and projects and such. What I see is the opposite: a place where everyone is stingy about helping, talking, writing, and complains about it.
Up to this point, this email really IS a complaint; now I want to propose something that would solve the problem. I think there should be a place for people to volunteer to other projects. Everyone that needs help or wants to start a community project would be welcome.
I'm utterly amazed about the Crash Course: it's a one man project, and I think it's worth recognition and work from others. Most projects could be completed within a few days or weeks if every Lojbanist wrote one line of Lojban/English every day.
I'd like to work on some way to make the community more active, and not just a random arrangement of people with their own lives.One last question: why does nobody develop the Interactive Story? Please add something to it.
— mi'e la uakci mu'o
selpahi
>
> I think a more formalised/explicit/organised mentoring process might
> help bring the community closer together. It might help retain more
> learners and form more invested friendships.
>
>
> That's a great idea! As a new learner, it'd be great to have someone to
> help introduce and integrate me into the community. Maybe another
> approach would be to pair new learners together. I'm not sure which
> would work better!
I suppose the latter approach would include maintaining a list of people
currently learning (preferably along with their geographic location) so
we don't have to go asking around for a matching study partner whenever
a new person "finds us".
Mentoring is a great concept - in theory. Sadly I often spend a lot of
effort introducing a newcomer to the language (teaching grammar, giving
learning advice, supplying useful links) only to find them never return.
It seems to me that people stick around if they want to, and it doesn't
matter much (generally, though there are of course counter-examples) how
much you try to help them. If they care about the language they will
stay and keep studying, and if they never cared that much, no amount of
mentoring, motivating, supporting, will make them stay. I do not have
enough fingers on my hands and feet combined to count the people who
seemed like they were serious about the language and then dropped off
the face of the earth despite having made good progress and having
received plenty of help and encouragement.
I don't believe this is a phenomenon that is specific to the Lojban
community. It is, however, one that the Lojban community suffers from.
> In addition, I would absolutely love having a voice chat room available
> (like TeamSpeak or Mumble) which wasn't solely in Lojban. I wanted to
> participate in the Sunday chats, but I got the feeling that they'd
> mostly just be in Lojban with experienced speakers. Having an open voice
> chat room is a low-investment way to practice speaking Lojban for the
> new dweebs like me. It's more personal than IRC and might be good for
> building up the community. It's pretty low-investment either way.
tsani teaching menturi via Mumble, and I taught a few people there as
well, but it was always spontaneous.
We did try establishing a habit of being on Mumble everyday, but it kind
of fizzled out. When nobody else joins for days or weeks it starts to
look pointless.
There's also the very real problem that almost all of the most
experienced speakers now live in Europe, so time zone differences start
to matter.
Any ideas how to improve the situation?
~~~mi'e la selpa'i
suzanys
karis
You said:
Sketching what the language specifications and requirements must have been to come up with the language we got.
I'm figuring out whether a better morphophonology could have met the requirements. It should be much simpler.
Have you asked lojbab? He understands the process and the specifications because hewas part of its creation.
karis
karis
You said:
Sketching what the language specifications and requirements must have been to come up with the language we got.
I'm figuring out whether a better morphophonology could have met the requirements. It should be much simpler.
Have you asked lojbab? He understands the process and the specifications because hewas part of its creation.
karis
John Clifford
pycyn, who was there before the creation.
Sent from my iPad
Timothy Lawrence
> Sadly I often spend a lot of
> effort introducing a newcomer to the language (teaching grammar, giving
> learning advice, supplying useful links) only to find them never return.
Usually there are detractors that cause people to lose interest - were they not engaged enough?
Part of this mentoring concept should be "check-ups" and surveys about what can be improved to keep them engaged, I think.
Sent: Friday, 2 September 2016 10:03 PM
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: taking action
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Timothy Lawrence
I would be happy to help coordinate this a little; in the future, we could automate it - this is Lojban, after all!
> Maybe another approach would be to pair new learners together. I'm not sure which would work better!
We can experiment and see what works :)
Perhaps we could mainly aim to pair by shared interests/location as best as possible, which will usually pair up learners, but also ensure they both have a more experienced mentor "just in case"?
Sent: Friday, 2 September 2016 9:19 AM
To: lojban
Subject: [lojban] Re: taking action
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Timothy Lawrence
I would be happy for a new low-key, non-recorded Lojban-English channel that occurs at a different time (in Australia, I am always asleep when the current Mumble chats run, from memory). I would certainly make effort to use it :)
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: taking action
Timothy Lawrence
https://jekyllrb.com/
https://github.com/Anthony-Gaudino/jekyll-multiple-languages-plugin
Sent: Monday, 22 August 2016 10:16 PM
gleki.is...@gmail.com
Em domingo, 11 de setembro de 2016 11:29:12 UTC+3, Timothy Lawrence escreveu:
I would be happy for a new low-key, non-recorded Lojban-English channel that occurs at a different time (in Australia, I am always asleep when the current Mumble chats run, from memory). I would certainly make effort to use it :)
Pierre Abbat
> In addition, I would absolutely love having a voice chat room available
> (like TeamSpeak or Mumble) which wasn't solely in Lojban. I wanted to
> participate in the Sunday chats, but I got the feeling that they'd mostly
> just be in Lojban with experienced speakers. Having an open voice chat room
> is a low-investment way to practice speaking Lojban for the new dweebs like
> me. It's more personal than IRC and might be good for building up the
> community. It's pretty low-investment either way.
On viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2016 2:03:34 P. M. EDT selpahi wrote:
> There's also the very real problem that almost all of the most
> experienced speakers now live in Europe, so time zone differences start
> to matter.
church (on Saturday) or go back to sleep (on Sunday). I'm not sure what the
best solution is.
Pierre
--
lo ponse be lo mruli ku po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
karis
I tracked down this thread in order to try and get in touch with you and timoteios. I've lost any emails I may have had, and want to discuss website changes. Would you please email me at comca...@gmail.com. I am posting virtually the same message to one of his posts in this conversation as well.
Thank you,
karis, now President of LLG
karis
I tracked down this thread in order to try and get in touch with you and uakci. I've lost any emails I may have had, and want to discuss website changes. Would you please email me at comca...@gmail.com. I am posting virtually the same message to one of his posts in this conversation as well.