Re: FAQ - please comment
John Cowan
Excellent effort!
> 4. What are those lojban word that you are using even in English text?
> What's all the other jargon and acronyms you use?
Add:
tanru - a phrase formed of two or more Lojban brivla
cmavo - a "little word" showing structure rather than carrying meaning
> 8. What messages are appropriate for the Lojban List?
> Beginners are very encouraged to post. Anything's appropriate as long as the
> title approximately reflects the content, and you're not selling magazine
> subscriptions or mail-order brides (exeption: it's OK if it's in Lojban!)
Add: You can post on any subject in Lojban, or about Lojban in any language.
> 10. Are there archives? WWW site? ftp site?
>
> Web site: http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/lojban.html
> FTP site: powered.cs.yale.edu
> in directory /pub/lojban
> Archives: ??
The archives are on the FTP site in directory /pub/lojban/list.
> 11. What's available in languages other than English?
>
> There is a brochure in Esperanto and Jorge and Jose are just finishing
> up a translation of the gismu list into Spanish.
There is also a brochure in French and one in Russian.
> 12. What software's available?
>
> Parser - on the FTP site
> Logflash I - on the FTP site
> Logflash II - on the FTP site
There is no Logflash 2 at present but there is Logflash 3 (teaches cmavo).
Logflash 2 was meant to teach rafsi.
> Prolog Semantic Analyzer http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/analyser.html
Random Sentence Generator - currently only available by mail.
Lujvo program - soon to be available on the FTP site.
> 13. Who is everybody? Who's in charge?
>
> James Cook Brown
> The inventor of Loglan - not associated with Lojban now
That's Cooke, not Cook.
> John Clifford aka pc pcli...@CRL.COM
> A linguist who's been involved with the project for a long time
A logician (specializing in tense logic) rather than a linguist.
> 14. How many people are there in the Lojban community? How many can use
Lojban,
> and how well?
There are about 600 people on the hard-copy mailing list, most of whom
have a rather low-level interest: they get the hard-copy newsletter
"le lojbo karni", which hopefully will have a new issue in January.
There are generally about 90 people on Lojban List. Maybe 15 people
post regularly.
> 15. What parts of the language are well worked out, and which parts are in
flux?
The phonology, orthography, and morphology have been essentially stable
since 1988, except for a slight change in what counts as a legal fu'ivla.
The gismu list has been stable since 1988, except that about 25 gismu
have been added and 2 gismu changed. This includes the words themselves
and the English keywords.
The rafsi have been stable since 1993, when they were radically changed.
Much existing text has not been updated, although a program to do so
has been written by LLG.
The place structures have not been formally baselined, and a few changes
are still occurring, but the vast majority of them are stabilized by
human inertia.
The grammar has been basically stable since 1993. A few marginal changes,
essentially expanding what can be said, are now being considered prior to
publishing the reference grammar.
The basic semantics are stable. There are still ongoing disputes about
"how to say it best in Lojban"; we expect these to continue indefinitely.
> 17. What projects are being worked on? When will they be done?
The FTP site is maintained by Erik Rauch, who acts by requests from Bob
or John Cowan.
> 18. What can I do to help?
>
> A few possibilities:
> Come to LogFest in July/August
in Fairfax VA (near Washington, DC), U.S.A.
--
John Cowan co...@ccil.org
e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
Chris Bogart
==============================
TECHNICAL
1a. Why do some texts use <h> instead of <'>?
1b. Could I take a text with <h>s and do a search & replace with <'> and end
up with "standard" lojban?
1c. Why is one better than the other?
2. How do you borrow words from other languages?
3. Isn't it confusing that some rafsi are identical to cmavo?
4. What are those lojban word that you are using even in English text?
What's all the other jargon and acronyms you use?
===============================
RESOURCES
5. What's the best way to start learning Lojban?
6. How can I look up gismu, lujvo, and cmavo when I am translating from lojban?
7. Sources of text to read?
8. What messages are appropriate for the Lojban List?
9. What are the abbreviations used on the list's subject lines?
10. Are there archives? WWW site? ftp site?
11. What's available in languages other than English?
12. What software's available?
===============================
GENERAL
13. Who is everybody? Who's in charge?
14. How many people are there in the Lojban community? How many can use Lojban,
and how well?
===============================
PROJECT STATUS
15. What parts of the language are well worked out, and which parts are in flux?
16. What are the most current revisions of each part of the language
descriptions?
17. What projects are being worked on? When will they be done?
18. What can I do to help?
=============================
HISTORICAL
19. How was the default place order of sumti in a selbri determined? (There
does not appear to be any rhyme or reason for the order of sumti in many
gismu.)
20. How did the gismu get made: discussion, etymology examples
21. What's the diff between Loglan, Lojban? How is Loglan-82 related? (it's
not!)
22. Why does it have a special meaning when the verb comes first?
23. Why are there so many words for AND? Why not just let {.e} connect
two sumti, bridi, bridi-tails, or anything else?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TECHNICAL
1a. Why do some texts use <h> instead of <'>?
Aesthetic reasons. And Rosta in particular thinks <mohi> looks better in print
than <mo'i> and uses it the hopes that he can influence the Lojban community to
accept this other spelling convention.
This is purely a difference in spelling; they are pronounced the same, and
should
be considered different ways of writing the same "letter".
This alternate spelling also is somewhat closer to the spelling of TLI Loglan
(see #@ below). There is another similar spelling system, which has never
been used, designed to make Lojban look more familiar to potential converts
from TLI.
1b. Could I take a text with <h>s and do a search & replace with <'> and end
up with "standard" lojban?
Probably not, because And uses a number of non-standard spelling conventions:
<'> is omitted altogether where the vowels couldn't possibly be
stuck together; for example he'd write <coe> for <co'e>, since <oe>
is not a legal combination.
He uses <.> as in English, to end a sentence, rather than as a pause.
He capitalizes the first word of the sentence.
1c. Why is one better than the other?
The standard usage is better because each letter corresponds to one sound and
each sound corresponds to one letter. And's usage is better because <.>
and <'> are ugly in the middle of words, and sentences ought to start with a
capital letter to better conform to Roman alphabet spelling conventions.
2. How do you borrow words from other languages?
There are four ways to borrow words. Only the most common method is covered
here; see the web or ftp sites for more detail.
Borrowed words are called {fu'ivla}, meaning approximately "copied words" (after
all, "borrowing" implies we're going to give them back someday!)
A fu'ivla consists of three parts:
- the classifier
- the glue
- the borrowed part
The quintessential example is {djarspageti}, meaning "spaghetti". {dja} is the
classifier: it's the short form (rafsi) for {cidja}, meaning "food". {r} is the
glue: its necessary to keep the word from falling into two parts. {spageti} is
the Lojbanized version of "spaghetti".
The classifier is glued on the front for two reasons: it helps identify strange
borrowings, and it prevents borrowings that happen to coincide with things that
are already Lojban words. For example if you borrowed the word "spageti"
directly,
it could lead to ambiguity in a phrase like *{ko bevri re spageti palta}
which could
mean "Bring two plates of spaghetti" or something like "Be a carrying
reptile and
a plate made of this" *{ko bevri respa ge ti palta}. In a natural language
there
would be no doubt which of the two was meant, but Lojban is constructed so
that you shouldn't need to understand the sentence to know where one word ends
and the next begins.
3. Isn't it confusing that some rafsi are identical to cmavo?
Yes, it isn't.
In theory you can tell completely from the neighboring syllables whether
something
is a cmavo or a rafsi. This is how the computer is able to parse Lojban without
understanding its meaning. For example the {dei} in {bavlamdei} ("tomorrow")
is a rafsi for "day", not the cmavo {dei}, a
special pronoun meaning "this sentence". We know which is which because Lojban
words can't end in a consonant, so {dei} *must* be a part of {bavlamdei};
{bavlam} can't be a whole word. (No, it can't be a name, either. Names end
with a consonant followed by a pause, written as a ".")
In practice you can also use your knowledge of the meanings of the words to help
with this; it's possible to think up a sentence like {la .bavlam. dei cusku},
"Bavlam says this sentence.", but it's not likely in practice if you don't
know anyone named "Bavlam"!
4. What are those lojban word that you are using even in English text?
What's all the other jargon and acronyms you use?
Here are APPROXIMATE definitions.
Words in ALL CAPS on the Lojban list often refer to Lojban parts of speech.
When this convention is used, the capitalization of {'} is {h}, so the
capitalization of {la'e} would be {LAhE}
attitudinal - A lojban interjection (Wow! Eeek!)
audiovisual isomorphism - Spoken and written Lojban should be the same
BAI - Lojban prepositions
bridi - Lojban sentence
brivla - any word that can act like a verb in Lojban
evidential - Special word indicating how the speaker got their information
fu'ivla - borrowed word
gadri - Lojban article
gismu - basic 5-letter lojban root word
JCB - James Cooke Brown, the inventor of Loglan
JL - ju'i lobypli
ju'i lobypli - an old Lojban newsletter
le'avla - the old word for fu'ivla
lo??an - lojban and loglan
lujvo - compound word
pe'i - in my opinion
rafsi - building block(s) of compound words
selbri - the verb-like part of a sentence
selma'o - part of speech
slinku'i - a hypothetical borrowed word, which is not a legal
only because it could be interpred as parts of other
words
TLI - The Loglan Institute
===============================
RESOURCES
5. What's the best way to start learning Lojban?
I would recommend:
Work through the mini-lesson: http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/minilsn.html
1. Work through the Diagrammed Summary
2. Read through the Reference Grammar -- reading for concepts, not
detail
3. Create a cheat sheet with lists of cmavo you're likely to need
4. Read and write Lojban text using the Ref Grammar and your
cheat sheets for reference
5. If you get serious about it, use Logflash to bone up on your
vocabulary
6. How can I look up gismu, lujvo, and cmavo when I am translating from lojban?
Use one of these:
- print yourself out some word lists
- use LojNote
- Keep the dictionary online and use a text editor with searching
capability to find stuff in it
7. Sources of text to read?
o The FTP site has some things; an index is here:
ftp://powered.cs.yale.edu/pub/lojban/text/README-text
o The Lojban list will have discussion in Lojban from time to time
o The web site has a few texts:
http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/lojban.html
o Stuff on paper can be ordered from the Logical Language Group;
however at this time Lojbab is concentrating on other
things and it's much better if you can retrieve stuff
off the net.
8. What messages are appropriate for the Lojban List?
Beginners are very encouraged to post. Anything's appropriate as long as the
title approximately reflects the content, and you're not selling magazine
subscriptions or mail-order brides (exeption: it's OK if it's in Lojban!)
You can post in any language you think people will understand. Postings in
Lojban warm the cockles of Lojbab's heart.
9. What are the abbreviations used on the list's subject lines?
A few different people are using different conventions for this purpose;
you may see:
TECH: technical discussion
TEXT: lojban text
JBO: or T: lojban text
GEN: or G: grammar discussion
PLI: or U: usage discussion
LOJ: or L: logic discussion
CLI: or B: beginner discussion
RET: or Q: question to the experienced (not restricted to beginners)
LIN: or W: whispers
CPE: or R: request for translation
SNU: or C: chat (bau la lojban. ju'o)
VRC: or D: general discussion (anything that won't fit) (why doesn't
vrici have a nice 3 zei lerfu rafsi .oi)
TRO: or A: list administration and miscellanea
10. Are there archives? WWW site? ftp site?
Web site: http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/lojban.html
FTP site: powered.cs.yale.edu
in directory /pub/lojban
Archives: ??
11. What's available in languages other than English?
There is a brochure in Esperanto and Jorge and Jose are just finishing
up a translation of the gismu list into Spanish.
12. What software's available?
Parser - on the FTP site
Logflash I - on the FTP site
Logflash II - on the FTP site
Prolog Semantic Analyzer http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/analyser.html
Random Sentence Generator - ??
===============================
GENERAL
13. Who is everybody? Who's in charge?
[Wanna be on this list? Write a paragraph in Lojban about yourself
and I'll include it.]
James Cook Brown
The inventor of Loglan - not associated with Lojban now
John Clifford aka pc pcli...@CRL.COM
A linguist who's been involved with the project for a long time
John Cowan co...@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG
Reference Grammar author
Jose Vazquez Gallo ga...@GALILEO.FIE.US.ES
ni'o ni'o mi'e. xoses. .i mi spano .i mi xabju la sevi,ias. ne le sangu'e
.i mi ca nanca lireci .i mi se ctuca fo lo samske di'o le diklo ckule
ni'o mi nelci lo banske .e lo kluske .e lo jdaske vu'o poi su'anai purci
gi'a stuna gi'a cizra .iji'a mi nelci le nu tcidu loi cukta gi'e ciska kei
.i mi tcenei tu'a la stanislav. lem. joi la tolki,en. joi la borxes. joi
la robrt. greivz. joi so'i lo drata .i mi nelci lo drata noi nuncusku nandu
mi bau la lojban. .i mi tcenei la lojban.
ni'o be'ucu'i .i .a'o di'u na malspano vau zo'o
co'o mi'e. xoses.
Lojbab aka Bob LeChevalier loj...@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET
Head of the Logical Language Group.
Cyril Slobin slo...@FEAST.FE.MSK.RU
mi'e kir.
.i lu ki,RIL. ar,KAD,ie,vitc. ZLO,bin. li'u mulno cmene mi
.i mi jbena fi li pabi pi'e so pi'e pasoxaze
.i mi rusko
.i mi xabju la moskvas.
.i mi skami certu
.i la xelen. speni mi
.i la serges. bersa mi
.i la dinax. me le mi mlatu
.i zo'o lo lojbo cmene cu cizra mi
.i mi na ca kakne lenu zmadu cusku
.i ri'a bo la lojban. ca fange mi
.i ku'i mi pacna lenu ri ba slabu mi
Goran Topic to...@STUDENT.MATH.HR
mi'e goran. .i mi caki nanca lirepapisu'o .i le kerfa .e le kanla vu'o
po'e mi manbu'e .i mi mitre lipazeji'imu gi'e ki'ogra lixaji'imu
ni'o mi ba'o .uu mlicre lo xumske gi'e ku'i certu lo samske gi'ebo tadni
lo banske .i mi pu tadni ca'o lo nanca remei lo cmacyske .iku'i mi
steba gi'esemu'ibo sisti ca lenu mi co'a jimpe ledu'u mi selzdi lenu
cilre le vrici bangu noi so'ecu'o tcefange gi'ebazibo co'a tadni lo
banske
ni'o mi pu jivna fi lenu dansu loi spano joi xispo joi merko gi'e pu
remoi loi za'e remei pe le mi gugde .i ku'i le mi dansu kansa co'a kansa
na'ebo mi .ije mi steba dukse fi'o fanta lenu mi ctuca lo drata
ni'oji'a mi tcenei lo xarfi'a gi'e cmima lo diklo xarfi'agri .i mi
nunxeldraco kelci .i mi kelci lo selcpa karda po'u la djixad. .i mi
kelci loi drata ji'a karda
ni'osu'a mi te jinvi ledu'u cizra .ije la'edi'u pluka mi
ni'o pe'i dei banzu vau pei
co'o mi'e. goran.
14. How many people are there in the Lojban community? How many can use Lojban,
and how well?
===============================
PROJECT STATUS
15. What parts of the language are well worked out, and which parts are in flux?
16. What are the most current revisions of each part of the language
descriptions?
17. What projects are being worked on? When will they be done?
Reference grammar - John Cowan has written a draft of this book and it
is currently being reviewed by the online Lojban community.
Textbook - a draft of the textbook is available online, but it is out of
date and incomplete. No one is working on it right now; it's considered
fairly low priority.
Dictionary - A draft is online, compiled primarily by Lojbab. It needs to
have lujvo added to it; Jorge Llambias and Nick Nicholas are working on this
project.
Web site - Veijo Vilva maintains the web site.
FAQ - Chris Bogart (cbo...@quetzal.com) maintains the FAQ.
18. What can I do to help?
A few possibilities:
Write in Lojban on the list
Post beginner questions and don't be intimidated
Write something in Lojban
Come to LogFest in July/August
Try expressing yourself in Lojban
Send money to LLG
Keep a diary in Lojban
=============================
HISTORICAL
19. How was the default place order of sumti in a selbri determined? (There
does not appear to be any rhyme or reason for the order of sumti in many
gismu.)
They went through a lot of revisions; it's something in between planning
and evolution. Some people continue to lobby for reforms.
20. How did the gismu get made: discussion, etymology examples
Lojbab replies:
I have put the full set of etymologies up
on my ftp site ftp.access.digex.net /pub/lojbab file "finprims.ety" 282K.
There isn;t a lot of explanation, but the etymogies in 6 languages and
the scoring for each language are given, in order Chinese/English/Hindi/
Spanish/Russian/Arabic - a 0 score means that the language made no contribution
to the word, and thus its etymological keyword did not matter.
21. What's the diff between Loglan, Lojban? How is Loglan-82 related? (it's
not!)
James Cooke Brown came up with the idea of Loglan in around 1960. It's been
evolving
ever since. In 1985 or so there was a disagreement and the Loglan community
split
into two efforts, with Brown at the head of one, The Loglan Institute (TLI), and
Bob LeChevalier at the head of the other, the Logical Language Group (LLG).
The latter
is Lojban, which LLG (backed up by a court decision) considers a subcategory
of Loglan.
Loglan-82 is a completely unrelated computer language.
22. Why does it have a special meaning when the verb comes first?
In Loglan it used to be a command, but now we use either {ko} or attitudinals.
In a {poi broda} phrase it's likely that you'll want x1 to be {ke'a}
and to explicitly state x2. If V-initial weren't special, and if syntax
within a poi were consistent with sentence-level syntax, then you'd have to
explicitly use {fe} or {zo'e} or {ke'a} to get to the x2.
For example, now we say {le nanmu poi prami mi} and the x1 of {prami} is
elided,
and we can assume it's {ke'a}, which here equals {le nanmu}. Without this
special treatment of V-initial, we'd have to say {le nanmu poi prami ke'a mi}
or {le nanmu poi ke'a prami mi} or {le nanmu poi ke'a mi prami}. So: it saves
2 syllables in what's arguably the most common way of using {poi}. May or may
not be worth it, depending on how you value word order flexibility vs. brevity.
In general it lets you easily get to x2 in sentences without an x1.
23. Why are there so many words for AND? Why not just let {.e} connect
two sumti, bridi, bridi-tails, or anything else?
Lojbab replies:
We use different connectives for different scopes. Doing so helps the
listener keep track of what exactly the speaker wants connected. This is
MUCH more important in speech than in text, because in text you can reread and
ponder. If you have a multipart nested sumti joined to another multipart
nested sumti, having clear indicatoirs of scope may make the sentence
understandable when otherwise it is not. It is therefore hoped that spoken
Lojban and written Lojban can be similar in level of complexity. (You
know, audiovisual isomorphism)