The Lojban Reference Grammar in Russian language

[gleki]

I'm glad to inform that a very small group of enthusiasts has started translating The Lojban Reference Grammar into Russian.

If anybody is able to help with translation they can do that by signing up on http://lingvoforum.net/

and then signing in with that login and password and then editing wiki-pages of Russian translation project here.

Inform what pages you are gonna translate so that we there would be no intersections.

[MorphemeAddict]

That's great!

stevo

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[la gleki]

The current situation.

All the Wave lessons (a popular textbook on Lojban) have been translated to Russian.

http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/Волны_Ложбана 

online search engine is also available.

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/

(the whole basic vocabulary has been translated and included)

or you can download the dictionary from here: https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=1

For any questions contact any moderator of http://vk.com/menli.bangu social group or e-mail gleki.is...@gmail.com.

Oh, this is a Russian-related message. I have to repeat it in Russian then.

Все Волны Ложбана (популярный учебник языка "Ложбан") были переведены на русский язык.

http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/Волны_Ложбана 

Доступен также словарный поиск

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/

Или же вы можете скачать словарь отсюда: https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=1

По любым вопросам свяжитесь с любым модератором (ведущим) группы http://vk.com/menli.bangu или напишите по адресу gleki.is...@gmail.com.

[MorphemeAddict]

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 8:55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, January 6, 2012 3:03:14 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:

I'm glad to inform that a very small group of enthusiasts has started translating The Lojban Reference Grammar into Russian.

If anybody is able to help with translation they can do that by signing up on http://lingvoforum.net/

and then signing in with that login and password and then editing wiki-pages of Russian translation project here.

Inform what pages you are gonna translate so that we there would be no intersections.

The current situation.

All the Wave lessons (a popular textbook on Lojban) have been translated to Russian.

http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/Волны_Ложбана 

online search engine is also available.

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/

(the whole basic vocabulary has been translated and included)

or you can download the dictionary from here: https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=1

For any questions contact any moderator of http://vk.com/menli.bangu social group or e-mail gleki.is...@gmail.com.

Oh, this is a Russian-related message. I have to repeat it in Russian then.

Все Волны Ложбана (популярный учебник языка "Ложбан") были переведены на русский язык.

http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/Волны_Ложбана 

la gleki:

I see a potential problem with the following definition as given in the text. It makes "ti" look like a demonstrative adjective, which the Russian terms are, where it's actually more like a demonstrative pronoun. (I think "ti" is just "это"). It can't modify anything. And {ti} can also be plural, which is not indicated by the Russian gloss (and shouldn't be if my gloss is used). 

ti "этот, эта, это" – близкая вещь или событие поблизости, на который может указать говорящий. 

Similarly with this question and answer: 

Итак, как сказать “Этот дом мой”?

Ответ: ti zdani mi

It could seem like "ti" is being used as a modifier of "zdani", when it's really more like "ti" ('this thing') is the subject of the verb "zdani" (являться домом (кого)), and "mi" is the object of that verb. despite the full definition given previously (zdani x1 является домом x2 (чьим);x1 является домом x2 (кого)). A literal English translation would be "This houses me", not "This house is mine". (I can't give the literal Russian equivalent because I don't know how to make a verb out of the noun "дом".)

I realize talking about adjectives and verbs with subjects and objects is not how Lojban is usually described, but a beginner may understand this way more readily. I think the underlying Lojban structure needs to be emphasized more in the text. 

stevo

Доступен также словарный поиск

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/

Или же вы можете скачать словарь отсюда: https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=1

По любым вопросам свяжитесь с любым модератором (ведущим) группы http://vk.com/menli.bangu или напишите по адресу gleki.is...@gmail.com.

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[la gleki]

On Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:48:16 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 8:55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, January 6, 2012 3:03:14 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:

I'm glad to inform that a very small group of enthusiasts has started translating The Lojban Reference Grammar into Russian.

If anybody is able to help with translation they can do that by signing up on http://lingvoforum.net/

and then signing in with that login and password and then editing wiki-pages of Russian translation project here.

Inform what pages you are gonna translate so that we there would be no intersections.

The current situation.

All the Wave lessons (a popular textbook on Lojban) have been translated to Russian.

http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/Волны_Ложбана 

online search engine is also available.

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/

(the whole basic vocabulary has been translated and included)

or you can download the dictionary from here: https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=1

For any questions contact any moderator of http://vk.com/menli.bangu social group or e-mail gleki.is...@gmail.com.

Oh, this is a Russian-related message. I have to repeat it in Russian then.

Все Волны Ложбана (популярный учебник языка "Ложбан") были переведены на русский язык.

http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/Волны_Ложбана 

la gleki:

Oh, i wasnt expecting anyone but Google (so that it could index it) to read this post. 

I see a potential problem with the following definition as given in the text. It makes "ti" look like a demonstrative adjective, which the Russian terms are, where it's actually more like a demonstrative pronoun. (I think "ti" is just "это").

changed.

 

 It can't modify anything. And {ti} can also be plural, which is not indicated by the Russian gloss (and shouldn't be if my gloss is used). 

ti "этот, эта, это" – близкая вещь или событие поблизости, на который может указать говорящий. 

Similarly with this question and answer: 

Итак, как сказать “Этот дом мой”?

Ответ: ti zdani mi

It could seem like "ti" is being used as a modifier of "zdani"

changed

 

, when it's really more like "ti" ('this thing') is the subject of the verb "zdani" (являться домом (кого)), and "mi" is the object of that verb. despite the full definition given previously (zdani x1 является домом x2 (чьим);x1 является домом x2 (кого)). A literal English translation would be "This houses me", not "This house is mine".

"This is-a-house of me" will sound extremely strange in Russian so "мой" is retained. But this stylistically awkward "Это дом меня" (This is-a-house of-me) is put into the the answer (which is greyed).

 

(I can't give the literal Russian equivalent because I don't know how to make a verb out of the noun "дом".)

Me neither.

 

I realize talking about adjectives and verbs with subjects and objects is not how Lojban is usually described, but a beginner may understand this way more readily. I think the underlying Lojban structure needs to be emphasized more in the text. 

I agree. Everyone is free to edit the translation. It's a mediawiki-based website. You just need to register at lingvoforum.net.

The translation might be transferred to LMW but as we haven't agreed on what wiki should be used in future let's wait.

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

la gleki wrote:
> "This is-a-house of me" will sound extremely strange in Russian so "мой"
> is retained. But this stylistically awkward "Это дом меня" (This
> is-a-house of-me) is put into the the answer (which is greyed).
>
> (I can't give the literal Russian equivalent because I don't know
> how to make a verb out of the noun "дом".)
>
>
> Me neither.

I don't either, and my Russian is even rustier than my Lojban (and I was
never better than "semi-fluent in 6-year-old Russian" when I could talk
clumsily to my newly adopted kids 20 years ago), but I seem to recall
that there is an adjective form for most nouns, and IIRC you can turn an
adjective into a verb in a couple of ways.

Also, while zdani is translated into English easiest as a noun or
perhaps a verb, but there is an adjective version as well (though very
hard to render in English). This is a housish thing of mine, perhaps.
Or perhaps the gerund version (which may have a Russian equivalent) This
is housing for me.

lojbab



--
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

[la gleki]

On Monday, February 11, 2013 6:17:41 AM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:

la gleki wrote:
> "This is-a-house of me" will sound extremely strange in Russian so "мой"
> is retained. But this stylistically awkward "Это дом меня" (This
> is-a-house of-me) is put into the the answer (which is greyed).
>
>     (I can't give the literal Russian equivalent because I don't know
>     how to make a verb out of the noun "дом".)
>
>
> Me neither.

I don't either, and my Russian is even rustier than my Lojban (and I was
never better than "semi-fluent in 6-year-old Russian" when I could talk
clumsily to my newly adopted kids 20 years ago), but I seem to recall
that there is an adjective form for most nouns, and IIRC you can turn an
adjective into a verb in a couple of ways.

Also, while zdani is translated into English easiest as a noun or
perhaps a verb, but there is an adjective version as well (though very
hard to render in English).  This is a housish thing of mine, perhaps.
Or perhaps the gerund version (which may have a Russian equivalent) This
is housing for me.

If you wanna get such translations then i can give them to you. However, russian is obviously not as flexible as lojban. Of course, mutilating rigid natlangs in order to show something from lojban grammar is possible (see an example with "a dog all over the road" in Wave lessons showing amazing effects of {tu'o}).

But i wouldn't recommend it without further explanations.

In fact {zdani mi}~="a-house-of me". But in Russian i can't apply "pronoun+genitive case" that corresponds to English <'of'+pronoun>.

However, one can choose "noun+genitive" and this will be grammatically correct in Russian.

So we could change the example from {ti zdani mi} to {ti zdani lo gerku}="this is-a-house+of a-dog"="это дом собаки-GENITIVE".

[MorphemeAddict]

This suffers from the same problem as the original did, namely, that it doesn't show the verbness of "zdani". In this thread, we've beaten it to death (made it abundantly clear a'o), so the issue should be clear. And the text has been fixed already. 

stevo

lojbab



--
Bob LeChevalier    loj...@lojban.org    www.lojban.org

President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

[la gleki]

Please inform of any other issues with the translation if you find them.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Monday, February 11, 2013 07:55:06 la gleki wrote:
> However, one can choose "noun+genitive" and this will be grammatically
> correct in Russian.
> So we could change the example from {ti zdani mi} to {ti zdani lo
> gerku}="this is-a-house+of a-dog"="это дом собаки-GENITIVE".

Or "это его/её/их дом" - those are genitive. English is the same way, except
that the genitive of "I, thou, we, you" is missing, rather than present but
not used as a possessive, as in Russian. "His" and "their" are genitives (I
had to look "their" up); the rest are possessive adjectives.

I looked up "house" (verb) on Wiktionary and found "помещать". Could it or
some other sort of "мещать" be used in "this houses a dog"?

Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
Já não percebe nada, já não percebe nada.

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:43:39 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Monday, February 11, 2013 07:55:06 la gleki wrote:
> However, one can choose "noun+genitive" and this will be grammatically
> correct in Russian.
> So we could change the example from {ti zdani mi} to {ti zdani lo
> gerku}="this is-a-house+of a-dog"="это дом собаки-GENITIVE".

Or "это его/её/их дом" - those are genitive. English is the same way, except
that the genitive of "I, thou, we, you" is missing, rather than present but
not used as a possessive, as in Russian. "His" and "their" are genitives (I
had to look "their" up); the rest are possessive adjectives.

I looked up "house" (verb) on Wiktionary and found "помещать". Could it or
some other sort of "мещать" be used in "this houses a dog"?

Well, помещать can rather mean "to put into". There is no such verb as мещать. Don't ask me why. I never liked the grammar of Russian or English. In fact i speak english by just recalling most frequent templates that i've heard in my life.

Of course you might find an appropriate word but i'm sure it will be very unusual. I don't want any crazy mutilated Russia/English/whatever in one the very first waves.

ta'onai {zdani=se xabju}. So of course we may assume that {ti zdani mi=ti se xabju mi}. {xabju=to inhabit=населять}. As {se} is usually expressed using passive voice in Russian then {ti se xabju mi = это населяется мной}.

It's very unusual probably as unusual as English "this one is inhabited by me".

Do we need that in a popular textbook?