Easy Lujvo
Remo Dentato
here some time ago.
The idea is to extend what we normally do with {-gau} that allows us
to create lujvo on the fly knowing that {rodgau} means {ko'a gasnu lo
nu ko'e broda ko'i ko'o ko'u}.
Would someone check if they all make sense? Especially that the lojban
gloss is sound. I've tried to be as consistent as possible (e.g. all
the terms of comparison are x2).
Here is the link to the draft: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7681579/easylujvo.pdf
Looking forward for you comments.
remod.
.alyn.post.
x1 is feminine in the aspect brode
this:
x1=f1 is feminine in the aspect brode
I'm helped when defining lujvo linking the places together like
that.
-Alan
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Pierre Abbat
> I've compiled a small table of the "easy lujvo" that were discussed
> here some time ago.
>
> The idea is to extend what we normally do with {-gau} that allows us
> to create lujvo on the fly knowing that {rodgau} means {ko'a gasnu lo
> nu ko'e broda ko'i ko'o ko'u}.
>
> Would someone check if they all make sense? Especially that the lojban
> gloss is sound. I've tried to be as consistent as possible (e.g. all
> the terms of comparison are x2).
"rodrai" and "tolrodrai" need to be distinguished in the Lojban gloss.
Also "tol-" is pretty common by itself, as are "nal-" and "nor-".
For morphologic reasons, "-mau" is sometimes replaced with "zma", or for
phonotactic reasons, vice versa.
"ficbo'e" violates phonotactics.
I'd put "frica" as a suffix. The first word I thought of beginning with "fic"
is "ficysi'u". "re frica prenu" means "two different people (both different
from someone else)", whereas "re ficysi'u prenu" means "two different people
(different from each other)".
"simxu" should be in the list.
"jdika" should not be crossed out, it just doesn't have a short rafsi.
I don't remember seeing "-bra" or "-cma" added to arbitrary gismu, except
in "plisycma", which was a joke. Usually they're prefixes.
"rodcre" violates phonotactics. I don't think "-cre" is common enough to
include in the list.
I don't think "si'o-" is that common as a prefix. You may be thinking
of "siz-", which is the rafsi of the cmavo "si'o". The suffix "-si'o" is
fairly close to "-ism".
Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
Já não percebe nada, já não percebe nada.
ianek
mu'o mi'e ianek
Remo Dentato
<alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> I was expecting to see, rather than:
>
> x1 is feminine in the aspect brode
>
> this:
>
> x1=f1 is feminine in the aspect brode
>
> I'm helped when defining lujvo linking the places together like
> that.
The x1 of each lujvo is the x1 of the valsi it is based on.
I was counting on the lojban gloss for exactly specify this.
Consider that the key point is to have an agreed way to "expand" a
lujvo that have a specified form, the english gloss is just an help to
memorize them.
Remo Dentato
> I miss nun- and possibly some other cmavo-based lujvo.
Well, I removed it as it would simply have its standard definition:
nunbo'e -> lo nu brode
I could add it for completeness, though.
Could you suggest which cmavo based lujvo I've missed? I will be happy
to add them.
remod
Remo Dentato
> "rodrai" and "tolrodrai" need to be distinguished in the Lojban gloss.
than solivng them.
> Also "tol-" is pretty common by itself, as are "nal-" and "nor-".
yes but they would just expand to their standard interpretaiion, right?
{tolbo'e} -> {to'e brode}
It wouldn't add anything else (no change in the sumti place, for
example) Same goes for nal and nor.
> For morphologic reasons, "-mau" is sometimes replaced with "zma"
Right, I've added both.
> "ficbo'e" violates phonotactics.
Yes, I fixed this and the other wrong lujvo
> I'd put "frica" as a suffix. The first word I thought of beginning with "fic"
> is "ficysi'u". "re frica prenu" means "two different people (both different
> from someone else)", whereas "re ficysi'u prenu" means "two different people
> (different from each other)".
I'm not sure I understand your point here. Given that a lujvo, after
all, can be given the desired meaning, how would be ficybroda
different from brodyficra? I would prefer short rafsi where possible.
> "simxu" should be in the list.
Agreed.
> "jdika" should not be crossed out, it just doesn't have a short rafsi.
I would prefer lujvo made with short rafsi, It's unfortunate that
{jdika} hasn't one :(
> I don't remember seeing "-bra" or "-cma" added to arbitrary gismu, except
> in "plisycma", which was a joke. Usually they're prefixes.
I still prefer the suffix form, though. Could you elaborate on why the
prefix should be better?
> "rodcre" violates phonotactics.
Fixed
> I don't think "-cre" is common enough to include in the list.
Agreed
> I don't think "si'o-" is that common as a prefix. You may be thinking
> of "siz-", which is the rafsi of the cmavo "si'o". The suffix "-si'o" is
> fairly close to "-ism".
I like the idea of -ism!
I've made a new version a the same link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7681579/easylujvo.pdf
Remo Dentato
explanatory examples)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7681579/easylujvo.pdf
ianek
On Aug 19, 10:28 pm, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:
Stela Selckiku
>
>> Also "tol-" is pretty common by itself, as are "nal-" and "nor-".
>
> yes but they would just expand to their standard interpretaiion, right?
... isn't that the whole idea?
> I'm not sure I understand your point here. Given that a lujvo, after
> all, can be given the desired meaning, how would be ficybroda
> different from brodyficra? I would prefer short rafsi where possible.
I would say that a rodyfrica would usually be different from a broda
somehow, and a ficybo'e would be a brode that differs from something
else somehow. But I'm not sure either of those are common/standard
enough for a filjvo list.
>> I don't remember seeing "-bra" or "-cma" added to arbitrary gismu, except
>> in "plisycma", which was a joke. Usually they're prefixes.
> I still prefer the suffix form, though. Could you elaborate on why the
> prefix should be better?
The prefix form is used with bra- and cma- because the bigness or
smallness of the thing is just an incidental quality. The most
essential thing you want to express about it is that it's whatever
type of object. So we'd say {braxanto} to make it clear we're talking
about an elephant, while also saying that it's a big one. If we said
{xantybra} that could also mean "something as big as an elephant" or
"a big thing that elephants like" or whatever.
mi'e la stela selckiku
mu'o
tijlan
units) that may be made part of predicates:
http://www.eskimo.com/~ram/lexical_semantics.html#APPENDIX_B
mu'o
tijlan
What would be the form of a lujvo that compares non-subjects? For
example, "I eat apples more than oranges".
I'm not sure about the glosses for "rodyki'i". Why is ckini2 a NU? And
what about "rodra'a" (broda zei srana)?
If the spaces in the list are meant to indicate groupings, I would
move "milxe" up into the non-relational group of "mutce" and "dukse"
(and perhaps add "carmi") and put "traji" in the relational group of
"zmadu", "mleca", "dunli", etc.
"zanbo'e", "malbo'e"... Why "a positive/derogative brode-ness" rather
than "positively/derogatively brode"? If "zabna/mabla" has to
subordinate "brode", I would consider having "brode" in a non-primary
position, not as the right-most element, i.e. "brode zei zabna/mabla".
What would be the semantic difference between "rodysi'o" (broda zei
sidbo) and "sizbo'e" (si'o brode)? Couldn't "sizbo'e" mean an -ism as
well?
"becomes [lo] broda" is what some would call a dynamic predicate: the
thematic patient (whether the subject or the object) experiences a
change of state. Its counterpart would be a static predicate: the
thematic patient experiences a steady state. "morsi", "vofli",
"jitro", "ganra"... would be static, because they don't indicate a
change in the state of their patient (morsi1, vofli1, jitro2,
ganra1...). Dynamic brivlas would include "catra", "renro", "stika",
"spoja"... because they indicate a change in the state of their
patient (catra2, renro2, stika2, spoja1) . What would be the prefix or
suffix for converting a dynamic brivla into a static brivla? For
example, "x1 is a murderer" might be more accurately represented by a
static version of "catra" (which would differ from "ca'o catra" too).
mu'o
Jorge Llambías
>
> What would be the form of a lujvo that compares non-subjects? For
> example, "I eat apples more than oranges".
"zmacti", like "zmanei" for "x1 prefers x2 over x3".
> What would be the semantic difference between "rodysi'o" (broda zei
> sidbo) and "sizbo'e" (si'o brode)? Couldn't "sizbo'e" mean an -ism as
> well?
"remsi'o" could perhaps be used for "humanism", but "sizre'a" would
seem to be "x1 is the idea that x2 is human".
> What would be the prefix or
> suffix for converting a dynamic brivla into a static brivla? For
> example, "x1 is a murderer" might be more accurately represented by a
> static version of "catra" (which would differ from "ca'o catra" too).
"catrykai"? "x1 ckaji lo ka ce'u [su'o roi] catra".
Maybe that's closer to "killer" than to "murderer", I think for
"murderer" we would need to add "zekri".
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Michael Turniansky
> "remsi'o" could perhaps be used for "humanism", but "sizre'a" would
> seem to be "x1 is the idea that x2 is human".
I would think of more as "x1 is [Platonic] ideal human" (i.e. a human
of ideas, rather than the idea of a human).
--gejyspa, sitll 8 dyas back in email
Jorge Llambías
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/8/22 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:
>
>> "remsi'o" could perhaps be used for "humanism", but "sizre'a" would
>> seem to be "x1 is the idea that x2 is human".
>
> I would think of more as "x1 is [Platonic] ideal human" (i.e. a human
> of ideas, rather than the idea of a human).
For "remsi'o", for "sizre'a", or for both?
The CLL rule for the place structure of "NU zei broda" gives "x1 si'o
x2 remna kei x3" for "sizre'a".
http://dag.github.com/cll/12/12/
Michael Turniansky
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:24 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2011/8/22 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> "remsi'o" could perhaps be used for "humanism", but "sizre'a" would
>>> seem to be "x1 is the idea that x2 is human".
>>
>> I would think of more as "x1 is [Platonic] ideal human" (i.e. a human
>> of ideas, rather than the idea of a human).
>
> For "remsi'o", for "sizre'a", or for both?
Sorry, should have specified. For sizre'a. But that's because I
hadn't noticed you switched from the rafsi for sidbo (in the former)
to that of si'o (in the latter), so never mind. Because I really
meant that for sibre'a.
--gejyspa
>
> The CLL rule for the place structure of "NU zei broda" gives "x1 si'o
> x2 remna kei x3" for "sizre'a".
> http://dag.github.com/cll/12/12/
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>